The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

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pokerman
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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by pokerman »

Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:well, to be fair on the subject of WCC points both Kimi and Seb have dropped them in equal amounts, having each had a 5th place finish. The rest of the time the lowest they have finished is 4th, exactly where they should be. So from a WCC perspective they are both doing as well as each other

Not as well as each other, Vettel has won a race and finished in front of Kimi 4-1.

From a WCC perspective. If the car is good enough for 3rd and 4th and the drivers get that, then from a WCC perspective they have done equally well and brought home maximum points

Not when one driver as actually won a race and got points above the norm

and the other got a second place and split the Mercs, so both have on occasion taken the fight to the better cars. I'm unclear why you are contesting this? They have both brought home respectable points and both on one occasion each dropped the ball

I am only contesting the fact they have done equally well
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Zoue
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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Zoue »

pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:Not as well as each other, Vettel has won a race and finished in front of Kimi 4-1.

From a WCC perspective. If the car is good enough for 3rd and 4th and the drivers get that, then from a WCC perspective they have done equally well and brought home maximum points

Not when one driver as actually won a race and got points above the norm

and the other got a second place and split the Mercs, so both have on occasion taken the fight to the better cars. I'm unclear why you are contesting this? They have both brought home respectable points and both on one occasion each dropped the ball

I am only contesting the fact they have done equally well

Vettel is clearly doing better in the WDC. Someone has to finish ahead, but from Ferrari's perspective - as I keep saying, the WCC - they have both performed pretty much to the realistic maximum and have each only dropped the ball once. It's unlikely that Ferrari could have hoped for much more from a combined score perspective (aside from those two occasions I mentioned).

pokerman
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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by pokerman »

Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:From a WCC perspective. If the car is good enough for 3rd and 4th and the drivers get that, then from a WCC perspective they have done equally well and brought home maximum points

Not when one driver as actually won a race and got points above the norm

and the other got a second place and split the Mercs, so both have on occasion taken the fight to the better cars. I'm unclear why you are contesting this? They have both brought home respectable points and both on one occasion each dropped the ball

I am only contesting the fact they have done equally well

Vettel is clearly doing better in the WDC. Someone has to finish ahead, but from Ferrari's perspective - as I keep saying, the WCC - they have both performed pretty much to the realistic maximum and have each only dropped the ball once. It's unlikely that Ferrari could have hoped for much more from a combined score perspective (aside from those two occasions I mentioned).

Yes indeed but it's wrong to say they have done equally well when Vettel has clearly done better thus far
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Zoue
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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Zoue »

pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:Not when one driver as actually won a race and got points above the norm

and the other got a second place and split the Mercs, so both have on occasion taken the fight to the better cars. I'm unclear why you are contesting this? They have both brought home respectable points and both on one occasion each dropped the ball

I am only contesting the fact they have done equally well

Vettel is clearly doing better in the WDC. Someone has to finish ahead, but from Ferrari's perspective - as I keep saying, the WCC - they have both performed pretty much to the realistic maximum and have each only dropped the ball once. It's unlikely that Ferrari could have hoped for much more from a combined score perspective (aside from those two occasions I mentioned).

Yes indeed but it's wrong to say they have done equally well when Vettel has clearly done better thus far

I think you're just splitting hairs here. The point is as a team they've got close to the maximum they could have hoped for, with a couple of noted exceptions

mas
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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by mas »

Is Kimi ahead of the two Williams drivers in the WDC ? Yes, therefore he is doing his full part in Ferrari's WCC campaign. The rest is just splitting hairs. Pirelli going to softer tyre combinations over the following races will also benefit him.

pokerman
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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by pokerman »

Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:and the other got a second place and split the Mercs, so both have on occasion taken the fight to the better cars. I'm unclear why you are contesting this? They have both brought home respectable points and both on one occasion each dropped the ball

I am only contesting the fact they have done equally well

Vettel is clearly doing better in the WDC. Someone has to finish ahead, but from Ferrari's perspective - as I keep saying, the WCC - they have both performed pretty much to the realistic maximum and have each only dropped the ball once. It's unlikely that Ferrari could have hoped for much more from a combined score perspective (aside from those two occasions I mentioned).

Yes indeed but it's wrong to say they have done equally well when Vettel has clearly done better thus far

I think you're just splitting hairs here. The point is as a team they've got close to the maximum they could have hoped for, with a couple of noted exceptions

I was simply making a statement of fact is Rosberg doing as equally as well as Hamilton?
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Zoue
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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Zoue »

pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:I am only contesting the fact they have done equally well

Vettel is clearly doing better in the WDC. Someone has to finish ahead, but from Ferrari's perspective - as I keep saying, the WCC - they have both performed pretty much to the realistic maximum and have each only dropped the ball once. It's unlikely that Ferrari could have hoped for much more from a combined score perspective (aside from those two occasions I mentioned).

Yes indeed but it's wrong to say they have done equally well when Vettel has clearly done better thus far

I think you're just splitting hairs here. The point is as a team they've got close to the maximum they could have hoped for, with a couple of noted exceptions

I was simply making a statement of fact is Rosberg doing as equally as well as Hamilton?

no, but only because he's dropped out of the top two on two occasions, while Lewis has not. The Mercs should be finishing 1-2 every race. It depends a little on how you view Malaysia, I guess. Was that the best result Mercedes could have hoped for, or did they slip up? While in Bahrain Nico couldn't keep Kimi behind him, but he should have done IMO

If the cars get the best result possible and finish one behind the other, then both have contributed equally to the WCC. As I said, otherwise it's merely splitting hairs

pokerman
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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by pokerman »

Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:Vettel is clearly doing better in the WDC. Someone has to finish ahead, but from Ferrari's perspective - as I keep saying, the WCC - they have both performed pretty much to the realistic maximum and have each only dropped the ball once. It's unlikely that Ferrari could have hoped for much more from a combined score perspective (aside from those two occasions I mentioned).

Yes indeed but it's wrong to say they have done equally well when Vettel has clearly done better thus far

I think you're just splitting hairs here. The point is as a team they've got close to the maximum they could have hoped for, with a couple of noted exceptions

I was simply making a statement of fact is Rosberg doing as equally as well as Hamilton?

no, but only because he's dropped out of the top two on two occasions, while Lewis has not. The Mercs should be finishing 1-2 every race. It depends a little on how you view Malaysia, I guess. Was that the best result Mercedes could have hoped for, or did they slip up? While in Bahrain Nico couldn't keep Kimi behind him, but he should have done IMO

If the cars get the best result possible and finish one behind the other, then both have contributed equally to the WCC. As I said, otherwise it's merely splitting hairs

No it's not splitting hairs at all, Rosberg had a brake problem in Bahrain if that counts has him getting less than the ideal finishing position then this then has also happened twice to Kimi.

I believe the Ferrari's have only once finished one car behind the other so that is not the drivers maximising what you said they were.
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Zoue
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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Zoue »

pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:Yes indeed but it's wrong to say they have done equally well when Vettel has clearly done better thus far

I think you're just splitting hairs here. The point is as a team they've got close to the maximum they could have hoped for, with a couple of noted exceptions

I was simply making a statement of fact is Rosberg doing as equally as well as Hamilton?

no, but only because he's dropped out of the top two on two occasions, while Lewis has not. The Mercs should be finishing 1-2 every race. It depends a little on how you view Malaysia, I guess. Was that the best result Mercedes could have hoped for, or did they slip up? While in Bahrain Nico couldn't keep Kimi behind him, but he should have done IMO

If the cars get the best result possible and finish one behind the other, then both have contributed equally to the WCC. As I said, otherwise it's merely splitting hairs

No it's not splitting hairs at all, Rosberg had a brake problem in Bahrain if that counts has him getting less than the ideal finishing position then this then has also happened twice to Kimi.

I believe the Ferrari's have only once finished one car behind the other so that is not the drivers maximising what you said they were.

I believe I mentioned that both Kimi and Seb dropped points at least once each, so unclear why you are comparing to Nico?

I think Nico allowed Kimi to get to close and pressure him. After all, Lewis was 6 seconds ahead. The pressure of having Kimi breathing down his neck likely exacerbated the brake problem as he couldn't brake gently.

You seem determined to find fault. In the first two races, Kimi suffered damage, so they are not entirely representative. Nevertheless, Kimi was due to finish 4th before his retirement - and therefore maximise potential points - in the first race, and did finish 4th in the second, again despite suffering a broken floor. So I believe that was the maximum Ferrari could have expected. In the third race they finished one behind the other, again, maximum possible. In the fourth race Kimi got probably more than expected (as Seb did in the second), but Seb dropped the ball behind Bottas, who also denied Kimi in the final race. So by my reckoning that makes twice where one driver has exceeded expectations (one each), and the same number where they lost the same number of points. So again, they have gained almost the maximum possible for the team

pokerman
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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by pokerman »

Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:I think you're just splitting hairs here. The point is as a team they've got close to the maximum they could have hoped for, with a couple of noted exceptions

I was simply making a statement of fact is Rosberg doing as equally as well as Hamilton?

no, but only because he's dropped out of the top two on two occasions, while Lewis has not. The Mercs should be finishing 1-2 every race. It depends a little on how you view Malaysia, I guess. Was that the best result Mercedes could have hoped for, or did they slip up? While in Bahrain Nico couldn't keep Kimi behind him, but he should have done IMO

If the cars get the best result possible and finish one behind the other, then both have contributed equally to the WCC. As I said, otherwise it's merely splitting hairs

No it's not splitting hairs at all, Rosberg had a brake problem in Bahrain if that counts has him getting less than the ideal finishing position then this then has also happened twice to Kimi.

I believe the Ferrari's have only once finished one car behind the other so that is not the drivers maximising what you said they were.

I believe I mentioned that both Kimi and Seb dropped points at least once each, so unclear why you are comparing to Nico?

I think Nico allowed Kimi to get to close and pressure him. After all, Lewis was 6 seconds ahead. The pressure of having Kimi breathing down his neck likely exacerbated the brake problem as he couldn't brake gently.

You seem determined to find fault. In the first two races, Kimi suffered damage, so they are not entirely representative. Nevertheless, Kimi was due to finish 4th before his retirement - and therefore maximise potential points - in the first race, and did finish 4th in the second, again despite suffering a broken floor. So I believe that was the maximum Ferrari could have expected. In the third race they finished one behind the other, again, maximum possible. In the fourth race Kimi got probably more than expected (as Seb did in the second), but Seb dropped the ball behind Bottas, who also denied Kimi in the final race. So by my reckoning that makes twice where one driver has exceeded expectations (one each), and the same number where they lost the same number of points. So again, they have gained almost the maximum possible for the team

"If the cars get the best result possible and finish one behind the other, then both have contributed equally to the WCC"

I'm only going from what you have said

Both Mercedes cars suffered brake issues and i don't believe that under pressure Rosberg damaged his own brakes
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Teddy007
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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Teddy007 »

It's not splitting hairs, it's looking at the facts.

Only reason why its 1-2 Merc, 1-2 Ferrari is because these two teams are quite far ahead. In the event that the field gets tighter which is how the season tends to pan out when others are playing catch up.

You see the faster driver coming out on top, while the more struggling driver having to fight the next team or two. I prefer Kimi over Seb but have to say Kimi is just doing a good enough job when compared to Seb. Seb is making Kimi look like an average driver and while Seb has the potential to fight for 2nd every race, Kimi is fighting for 4th. That's not a good thing, by fight I mean has a good chance at it.

Both drivers are not getting the max out of the car is one driver finishes 10 seconds ahead of the team mate. What Ferrari have to look at for the WCC is, can we get another driver who can do better? With the way Kimi works within the team he isn't Mr Popular.

Kimi needs to be doing a better job and finishing ahead of his team mate a bit more, Kimi needs to be fighting Merc better than he currently is.

PRFAN
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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by PRFAN »

He needs to sort out qualy

Race pace is about even.

The lower grid spot forces the team to rely on strategy and maybe tire life to advance Kimi, sometimes when Seb is in clean air posting fast times Kimi is holding station saving tires and relying on strategy, that is no good.

If he can qualify better the race can come to him as it did with seb.

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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Fiki »

Teddy007 wrote:Seb has the potential to fight for 2nd every race, Kimi is fighting for 4th.
Vettel didn't have any more potential for 2nd in Spain, than Kimi for 4th. Things happen, such as Hamilton dropping a place at the start, but that doesn't mean Vettel was somehow better.
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Zoue
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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Zoue »

pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:I was simply making a statement of fact is Rosberg doing as equally as well as Hamilton?

no, but only because he's dropped out of the top two on two occasions, while Lewis has not. The Mercs should be finishing 1-2 every race. It depends a little on how you view Malaysia, I guess. Was that the best result Mercedes could have hoped for, or did they slip up? While in Bahrain Nico couldn't keep Kimi behind him, but he should have done IMO

If the cars get the best result possible and finish one behind the other, then both have contributed equally to the WCC. As I said, otherwise it's merely splitting hairs

No it's not splitting hairs at all, Rosberg had a brake problem in Bahrain if that counts has him getting less than the ideal finishing position then this then has also happened twice to Kimi.

I believe the Ferrari's have only once finished one car behind the other so that is not the drivers maximising what you said they were.

I believe I mentioned that both Kimi and Seb dropped points at least once each, so unclear why you are comparing to Nico?

I think Nico allowed Kimi to get to close and pressure him. After all, Lewis was 6 seconds ahead. The pressure of having Kimi breathing down his neck likely exacerbated the brake problem as he couldn't brake gently.

You seem determined to find fault. In the first two races, Kimi suffered damage, so they are not entirely representative. Nevertheless, Kimi was due to finish 4th before his retirement - and therefore maximise potential points - in the first race, and did finish 4th in the second, again despite suffering a broken floor. So I believe that was the maximum Ferrari could have expected. In the third race they finished one behind the other, again, maximum possible. In the fourth race Kimi got probably more than expected (as Seb did in the second), but Seb dropped the ball behind Bottas, who also denied Kimi in the final race. So by my reckoning that makes twice where one driver has exceeded expectations (one each), and the same number where they lost the same number of points. So again, they have gained almost the maximum possible for the team

"If the cars get the best result possible and finish one behind the other, then both have contributed equally to the WCC"

I'm only going from what you have said

Both Mercedes cars suffered brake issues and i don't believe that under pressure Rosberg damaged his own brakes

And I stand by what I said. You keep mixing WDC and WCC.

Nosebuckle
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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Nosebuckle »

Zoue wrote: You seem determined to find fault. In the first two races, Kimi suffered damage, so they are not entirely representative. Nevertheless, Kimi was due to finish 4th before his retirement - and therefore maximise potential points - in the first race, and did finish 4th in the second, again despite suffering a broken floor. So I believe that was the maximum Ferrari could have expected. In the third race they finished one behind the other, again, maximum possible. In the fourth race Kimi got probably more than expected (as Seb did in the second), but Seb dropped the ball behind Bottas, who also denied Kimi in the final race. So by my reckoning that makes twice where one driver has exceeded expectations (one each), and the same number where they lost the same number of points. So again, they have gained almost the maximum possible for the team


I'm not going to trash Kimi fans as I'm a fan of him as well, but you're fighting an uphill battle making the case that they've been pretty evenly matched so far. Race-wise, I think at worse they've matched each other, but that comparison is always going to be influenced by qualifying performance. I'm glad Kimi isn't making excuses for poor qualifying and I know some things have worked against him but at the end of the day he needs to put the car where it's capable of being. He doesn't necessarily need to be in front of Vettel but several cars between them on the grid is pretty much dooming his potential results before the green flag drops.

It's really frustrating (even if you're not really enamored with him) watching him struggle to qualify. You get the sense that the speed is still there, like when he puts it P3 during Q2 at Spain last weekend, but then you wonder what the hell's going on when he's the only driver (other than Massa) that fails to improve during Q3. So while he may be maximizing WCC points for the particular circumstance, his shoddy qualifying is making his circumstances harder than it needs to be.

Zoue
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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Zoue »

Teddy007 wrote:It's not splitting hairs, it's looking at the facts.

Only reason why its 1-2 Merc, 1-2 Ferrari is because these two teams are quite far ahead. In the event that the field gets tighter which is how the season tends to pan out when others are playing catch up.

You see the faster driver coming out on top, while the more struggling driver having to fight the next team or two. I prefer Kimi over Seb but have to say Kimi is just doing a good enough job when compared to Seb. Seb is making Kimi look like an average driver and while Seb has the potential to fight for 2nd every race, Kimi is fighting for 4th. That's not a good thing, by fight I mean has a good chance at it.

Both drivers are not getting the max out of the car is one driver finishes 10 seconds ahead of the team mate. What Ferrari have to look at for the WCC is, can we get another driver who can do better? With the way Kimi works within the team he isn't Mr Popular.

Kimi needs to be doing a better job and finishing ahead of his team mate a bit more, Kimi needs to be fighting Merc better than he currently is.

No, it isn't. It's splitting hairs.

I disagree that Seb is making Kimi look average. Have you even watched the races? He's schooling him in Qualifying, that's true, but on Sundays Seb is definitely not looking faster. The last race Kimi was setting similar pace on the harder tyre to Seb on the softer one, as he was in the previous race. If anything, Kimi is showing that Seb's advantage is purely qualifying but he's not as strong in the race.

I don't know where you get the Mr Popular thing from? I haven't read anything about that. Do you have a source?

I don't understand your 10 seconds comment. Last race Lewis finished 17 seconds behind Nico. Does that mean Mercedes should be looking to replace him?

If Kimi fails to sort out his qualifying issues then I'd agree that Ferrari would do well to consider their options, as sooner or later it will become a bigger issue once other teams close the performance gap. But it will be hard for them to find someone better on raceday, which is what they have to weigh up. If he does manage to sort Saturdays out, then on current performance there's every chance he'll actually beat Seb. He's certainly not looking second best during the races

Zoue
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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Zoue »

Nosebuckle wrote:
Zoue wrote: You seem determined to find fault. In the first two races, Kimi suffered damage, so they are not entirely representative. Nevertheless, Kimi was due to finish 4th before his retirement - and therefore maximise potential points - in the first race, and did finish 4th in the second, again despite suffering a broken floor. So I believe that was the maximum Ferrari could have expected. In the third race they finished one behind the other, again, maximum possible. In the fourth race Kimi got probably more than expected (as Seb did in the second), but Seb dropped the ball behind Bottas, who also denied Kimi in the final race. So by my reckoning that makes twice where one driver has exceeded expectations (one each), and the same number where they lost the same number of points. So again, they have gained almost the maximum possible for the team


I'm not going to trash Kimi fans as I'm a fan of him as well, but you're fighting an uphill battle making the case that they've been pretty evenly matched so far. Race-wise, I think at worse they've matched each other, but that comparison is always going to be influenced by qualifying performance. I'm glad Kimi isn't making excuses for poor qualifying and I know some things have worked against him but at the end of the day he needs to put the car where it's capable of being. He doesn't necessarily need to be in front of Vettel but several cars between them on the grid is pretty much dooming his potential results before the green flag drops.

It's really frustrating (even if you're not really enamored with him) watching him struggle to qualify. You get the sense that the speed is still there, like when he puts it P3 during Q2 at Spain last weekend, but then you wonder what the hell's going on when he's the only driver (other than Massa) that fails to improve during Q3. So while he may be maximizing WCC points for the particular circumstance, his shoddy qualifying is making his circumstances harder than it needs to be.

we're talking two different things here. I fully agree that Kimi's Saturdays are woeful. But the original point was about how well they'd done for Ferrari in the WCC and on that front they have both contributed almost maximum possible points. The cars are good enough for 4th minimum and both have dropped to 5th once each, while it's fair to say that both have exceeded expectations once each, too. Therefore Ferrari can be equally happy with both of their Sunday performances from a WCC perspective. They are where they should be.

I agree that qualifying has been a frustratingly painful experience. The one difference between me and some other Kimi fans is that I don't find the tyres' issue an acceptable excuse. He's a former WDC, with a wealth of experience, and with that in mind he should have figured a way around these problems by now. I just don't get why he can often get a faster time in Q2 than Q3. That's just poor, since the tyre heating issues will be identical. It all points to driver error more than anything else and to me it looks like he's over-driving the car. But that's down to him.

pokerman
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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by pokerman »

Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:no, but only because he's dropped out of the top two on two occasions, while Lewis has not. The Mercs should be finishing 1-2 every race. It depends a little on how you view Malaysia, I guess. Was that the best result Mercedes could have hoped for, or did they slip up? While in Bahrain Nico couldn't keep Kimi behind him, but he should have done IMO

If the cars get the best result possible and finish one behind the other, then both have contributed equally to the WCC. As I said, otherwise it's merely splitting hairs

No it's not splitting hairs at all, Rosberg had a brake problem in Bahrain if that counts has him getting less than the ideal finishing position then this then has also happened twice to Kimi.

I believe the Ferrari's have only once finished one car behind the other so that is not the drivers maximising what you said they were.

I believe I mentioned that both Kimi and Seb dropped points at least once each, so unclear why you are comparing to Nico?

I think Nico allowed Kimi to get to close and pressure him. After all, Lewis was 6 seconds ahead. The pressure of having Kimi breathing down his neck likely exacerbated the brake problem as he couldn't brake gently.

You seem determined to find fault. In the first two races, Kimi suffered damage, so they are not entirely representative. Nevertheless, Kimi was due to finish 4th before his retirement - and therefore maximise potential points - in the first race, and did finish 4th in the second, again despite suffering a broken floor. So I believe that was the maximum Ferrari could have expected. In the third race they finished one behind the other, again, maximum possible. In the fourth race Kimi got probably more than expected (as Seb did in the second), but Seb dropped the ball behind Bottas, who also denied Kimi in the final race. So by my reckoning that makes twice where one driver has exceeded expectations (one each), and the same number where they lost the same number of points. So again, they have gained almost the maximum possible for the team

"If the cars get the best result possible and finish one behind the other, then both have contributed equally to the WCC"

I'm only going from what you have said

Both Mercedes cars suffered brake issues and i don't believe that under pressure Rosberg damaged his own brakes

And I stand by what I said. You keep mixing WDC and WCC.

No I just said the Ferrari's have not been finishing one behind the other
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Zoue
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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Zoue »

pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:No it's not splitting hairs at all, Rosberg had a brake problem in Bahrain if that counts has him getting less than the ideal finishing position then this then has also happened twice to Kimi.

I believe the Ferrari's have only once finished one car behind the other so that is not the drivers maximising what you said they were.

I believe I mentioned that both Kimi and Seb dropped points at least once each, so unclear why you are comparing to Nico?

I think Nico allowed Kimi to get to close and pressure him. After all, Lewis was 6 seconds ahead. The pressure of having Kimi breathing down his neck likely exacerbated the brake problem as he couldn't brake gently.

You seem determined to find fault. In the first two races, Kimi suffered damage, so they are not entirely representative. Nevertheless, Kimi was due to finish 4th before his retirement - and therefore maximise potential points - in the first race, and did finish 4th in the second, again despite suffering a broken floor. So I believe that was the maximum Ferrari could have expected. In the third race they finished one behind the other, again, maximum possible. In the fourth race Kimi got probably more than expected (as Seb did in the second), but Seb dropped the ball behind Bottas, who also denied Kimi in the final race. So by my reckoning that makes twice where one driver has exceeded expectations (one each), and the same number where they lost the same number of points. So again, they have gained almost the maximum possible for the team

"If the cars get the best result possible and finish one behind the other, then both have contributed equally to the WCC"

I'm only going from what you have said

Both Mercedes cars suffered brake issues and i don't believe that under pressure Rosberg damaged his own brakes

And I stand by what I said. You keep mixing WDC and WCC.

No I just said the Ferrari's have not been finishing one behind the other

and I gave a detailed breakdown of each race explaining their respective finishing positions. The point still stands

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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by mcdo »

Fiki wrote:
Teddy007 wrote:Seb has the potential to fight for 2nd every race, Kimi is fighting for 4th.
Vettel didn't have any more potential for 2nd in Spain, than Kimi for 4th. Things happen, such as Hamilton dropping a place at the start, but that doesn't mean Vettel was somehow better.

In Spain? Vettel was better
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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by pokerman »

Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:I believe I mentioned that both Kimi and Seb dropped points at least once each, so unclear why you are comparing to Nico?

I think Nico allowed Kimi to get to close and pressure him. After all, Lewis was 6 seconds ahead. The pressure of having Kimi breathing down his neck likely exacerbated the brake problem as he couldn't brake gently.

You seem determined to find fault. In the first two races, Kimi suffered damage, so they are not entirely representative. Nevertheless, Kimi was due to finish 4th before his retirement - and therefore maximise potential points - in the first race, and did finish 4th in the second, again despite suffering a broken floor. So I believe that was the maximum Ferrari could have expected. In the third race they finished one behind the other, again, maximum possible. In the fourth race Kimi got probably more than expected (as Seb did in the second), but Seb dropped the ball behind Bottas, who also denied Kimi in the final race. So by my reckoning that makes twice where one driver has exceeded expectations (one each), and the same number where they lost the same number of points. So again, they have gained almost the maximum possible for the team

"If the cars get the best result possible and finish one behind the other, then both have contributed equally to the WCC"

I'm only going from what you have said

Both Mercedes cars suffered brake issues and i don't believe that under pressure Rosberg damaged his own brakes

And I stand by what I said. You keep mixing WDC and WCC.

No I just said the Ferrari's have not been finishing one behind the other

and I gave a detailed breakdown of each race explaining their respective finishing positions. The point still stands

You said they have been finishing one just behind the other which they haven't been doing:-

VET 3rd - 1st - 3rd - 5th - 3rd
RAI Rtd - 4th - 4th - 2nd - 5th

Finishing one just behind the other would be more like this:-

HAM 1st - 2nd - 1st - 1st - 2nd
ROS 2nd - 3rd - 2nd - 3rd - 1st
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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Honda Quick »

Well, we can see where the Alonso fans come when their man isn't in the points. LOL

Vettel has been better. I don't think anyone will dispute that. As far as Ferrari is concerned, with the exception of Kimi's qualifying which is where he's bleeding his points at, his trouble-free Sunday's this year have been on par with Vettel's. In clean air, they definitely share very similar pace, and Kimi seems to have a slight upperhand in tire management.

Given their pace advantage, how can the Mercedes duo do anything other than finish one behind the other unless a mechanical issue strikes? I think both pairs of drivers are doing a terrific job in terms of team points this year. The same could not have been said about Kimi last year. He was abysmal.

Interesting to note the qualifying gap Vettel's had over Kimi vs. that of Alonso from last year thus far though. And this is with a Kimi not struggling with a car as badly. IIRC, didn't Kimi actually outqualify Alonso in Spain last year?
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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by pokerman »

Honda Quick wrote:Well, we can see where the Alonso fans come when their man isn't in the points. LOL

Vettel has been better. I don't think anyone will dispute that. As far as Ferrari is concerned, with the exception of Kimi's qualifying which is where he's bleeding his points at, his trouble-free Sunday's this year have been on par with Vettel's. In clean air, they definitely share very similar pace, and Kimi seems to have a slight upperhand in tire management.

Given their pace advantage, how can the Mercedes duo do anything other than finish one behind the other unless a mechanical issue strikes? I think both pairs of drivers are doing a terrific job in terms of team points this year. The same could not have been said about Kimi last year. He was abysmal.

Interesting to note the qualifying gap Vettel's had over Kimi vs. that of Alonso from last year thus far though. And this is with a Kimi not struggling with a car as badly. IIRC, didn't Kimi actually outqualify Alonso in Spain last year?

Yes Kimi outqualified Alonso by 0.036s
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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Fiki »

mcdo wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Teddy007 wrote:Seb has the potential to fight for 2nd every race, Kimi is fighting for 4th.
Vettel didn't have any more potential for 2nd in Spain, than Kimi for 4th. Things happen, such as Hamilton dropping a place at the start, but that doesn't mean Vettel was somehow better.

In Spain? Vettel was better
Had he been ill? ;)
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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Prema »

Fiki wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Teddy007 wrote:Seb has the potential to fight for 2nd every race, Kimi is fighting for 4th.
Vettel didn't have any more potential for 2nd in Spain, than Kimi for 4th. Things happen, such as Hamilton dropping a place at the start, but that doesn't mean Vettel was somehow better.

In Spain? Vettel was better
Had he been ill? ;)


Had, in Bahrain. ;)

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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Exediron »

Honda Quick wrote:Interesting to note the qualifying gap Vettel's had over Kimi vs. that of Alonso from last year thus far though. And this is with a Kimi not struggling with a car as badly.

It is interesting, although as with any qualifying comparison to 2014 difficult due to the 60% rate of rain-affected qualifying sessions in the first 5 races last year. Also, I don't think it's really fair to say Kimi wasn't struggling with the car in Spain - that was a very 2014-esque race for Kimi.

The numbers for qualifying:

Gap to ALO: +1.69 - +1.04 - -0.62 - +1.10 - -0.04 - AVG 0.634
Gap to VET: +0.03 - +2.54 - +0.54 - +0.24 - +0.96 -AVG 0.862

Also interesting is the comparison for race gaps (if anyone knows a good source of gaps for cars where one has been lapped, that would be helpful):

Gap to ALO: +22.39 - +1 Lap (>= +67) - +0.87 - +52.73 - +1 Lap (>= +1)
Gap to VET: Ret - +53.82 - +0.85- -40.60 - +14.66

Both Kimi and Seb have a race where misfortune has allowed them to pull a huge gap on the other; that would only happen much later in the season for Alonso, so the 5 to 5 comparison is pretty lopsided in Alonso's favor with an average gap to Kimi of about 28 seconds; Vettel has 7 seconds so far.

Honda Quick wrote:IIRC, didn't Kimi actually outqualify Alonso in Spain last year?

Didn't Alonso have something wrong with his car? Or am I thinking of Bahrain?
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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Fiki »

Prema wrote:
Fiki wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Teddy007 wrote:Seb has the potential to fight for 2nd every race, Kimi is fighting for 4th.
Vettel didn't have any more potential for 2nd in Spain, than Kimi for 4th. Things happen, such as Hamilton dropping a place at the start, but that doesn't mean Vettel was somehow better.

In Spain? Vettel was better
Had he been ill? ;)


Had, in Bahrain. ;)

:D
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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Covalent »

I think Kimi could really thrive under the planned 2017 regulations, but I doubt he'll be in the sport for so long?

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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by pokerman »

Covalent wrote:I think Kimi could really thrive under the planned 2017 regulations, but I doubt he'll be in the sport for so long?

Next year's tyre rules might actually help with him being able to choose which tyres to use, he seems happier to have tyres one grade softer than other drivers.
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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Covalent »

pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:I think Kimi could really thrive under the planned 2017 regulations, but I doubt he'll be in the sport for so long?

Next year's tyre rules might actually help with him being able to choose which tyres to use, he seems happier to have tyres one grade softer than other drivers.

Yes I agree, I hope he keeps an open mind about his future in F1, at least until the end of next year. And also that Ferrari keep him beyond this season at least.

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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Covalent »

Testing the embedded tweets...


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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

Any news on whether Kimi is running any more of the new spec parts this weekend?

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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by pokerman »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:Any news on whether Kimi is running any more of the new spec parts this weekend?

Apparently Vettel has a modification to the front brakes which Kimi doesn't have yet, Hamilton did say Vettel was the #1 driver, was he right?
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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Covalent »

pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:Any news on whether Kimi is running any more of the new spec parts this weekend?

Apparently Vettel has a modification to the front brakes which Kimi doesn't have yet, Hamilton did say Vettel was the #1 driver, was he right?

Where did he say that?

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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Zoue »

Kimi Raikkonen: “The feeling with the car today was pretty ok, obviously there are some small issues but they are more related to the tyres: it’s difficult to make them warm up, especially the front tyres, but overall it’s not too bad. "

Ah. Don't expect too much from qualifying, then...

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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Sappher »

Zoue wrote:Kimi Raikkonen: “The feeling with the car today was pretty ok, obviously there are some small issues but they are more related to the tyres: it’s difficult to make them warm up, especially the front tyres, but overall it’s not too bad. "

Ah. Don't expect too much from qualifying, then...


Good thing we're in Monaco, as overtaking in here is... Oh wait. Don't expect too much from the whole weekend, then ;)

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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:Any news on whether Kimi is running any more of the new spec parts this weekend?

Apparently Vettel has a modification to the front brakes which Kimi doesn't have yet, Hamilton did say Vettel was the #1 driver, was he right?

Was that one of the Spain upgrades does anybody know? As that would imply he has now taken the other new parts from Spain.

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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by pokerman »

Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:Any news on whether Kimi is running any more of the new spec parts this weekend?

Apparently Vettel has a modification to the front brakes which Kimi doesn't have yet, Hamilton did say Vettel was the #1 driver, was he right?

Where did he say that?

When he was asked what he was looking for in his new contract, he mentioned that he never asks for #1 status unlike drivers like Alonso and unlike Vettel who has it stipulated in his Ferrari contract
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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by pokerman »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:Any news on whether Kimi is running any more of the new spec parts this weekend?

Apparently Vettel has a modification to the front brakes which Kimi doesn't have yet, Hamilton did say Vettel was the #1 driver, was he right?

Was that one of the Spain upgrades does anybody know? As that would imply he has now taken the other new parts from Spain.

The way it was highlighted it seemed to be a new modification introduced for Monaco
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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Covalent »

pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:Any news on whether Kimi is running any more of the new spec parts this weekend?

Apparently Vettel has a modification to the front brakes which Kimi doesn't have yet, Hamilton did say Vettel was the #1 driver, was he right?

Where did he say that?

When he was asked what he was looking for in his new contract, he mentioned that he never asks for #1 status unlike drivers like Alonso and unlike Vettel who has it stipulated in his Ferrari contract

Link please? Only thing I can find is this where he says nothing of the sort.
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns30588.html

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