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The commenters on Sky-F1 today were saying there are rumours that Pascal Wehrlein could replace Hartley as early as the Canadian GP. I've heard this rumour before that Helmet Marko isn't happy with Brendon Hartley's performance this year. Seems a bit harsh but Red Bull have a habit of doing this when things don't go right with their drivers.

Thoughts, will this happen?

It should not happen. He should be allowed to do at least this year. Gasly look stronger of the two but may be Hartley needs more time. This crash obviously would not help his confidence though. They should stick with him and hopefully he will deliver.

Hartley was never going to work out. It was a strange decision going with him in the first place given his age.

From Red Bulls point of view this makes a fair amount of sense. Hartley is being outperformed by his younger teammate and he has already been dropped by Red Bull before. He's unlikely to progress any further than Toro Rosso and that's the only point of him being at Toro Rosso.

Wehrlein has done enough to show he deserves a place on the grid and he's young, he fits the STR ethos much more than Hartley. It also obviously makes sense for him since Mercedes has basically just abandoned him.

It would be harsh on Hartley as he hasn't done too bad really but that's the nature of the Red Bull junior programme and it's not like he could be under any illusions otherwise after being dropped once already.

Agree with all the posts above and what's more, I've long felt that the treatment dished out to Daniil Kvyat was damn harsh. Bit of a brutal regime under Dr. Marko, methinks.

paulsf1fix wrote:The commenters on Sky-F1 today were saying there are rumours that Pascal Wehrlein could replace Hartley as early as the Canadian GP. I've heard this rumour before that Helmet Marko isn't happy with Brendon Hartley's performance this year. Seems a bit harsh but Red Bull have a habit of doing this when things don't go right with their drivers.

Thoughts, will this happen?

Well I was called being harsh for criticising him, I did give him until the end of the season though.

Huw wrote:Agree with all the posts above and what's more, I've long felt that the treatment dished out to Daniil Kvyat was damn harsh. Bit of a brutal regime under Dr. Marko, methinks.

Kvyat was given fair chance, he had 4 years in F1 and was inferior to Ricciardo, Verstappen and Sainz.

Hartley has hardly set the world on fire, but Wehrlein?

Wehrlein lost his spot on the grid due to lacking performance and seemingly some attitude problems. I just can’t imagine that fitting well with the Red Bull program.

One think that isn't looking good about Wehrlein is that now Leclerc has started to look as good or possibly better than Ericsson (and Ericsson pace wise was very similar to Wehrlein - just look at their closest average qualifying gap of any team last year) I think I can see why not many teams would want him back. Especially given some apparently have issues with him. That said, I still think Leclerc needs more than 3/5 qualifying sessions and 1 out of 4 races to be considered better than Ericsson.

Wehrlien is certainly good enough to be on the grid and is better than several out there, but I don't think any of the current grid should get kicked out mid season at this stage. Maybe Williams would be a good place for Wehrlein next year if they decide Stroll isn't worth keeping despite his money. And as it looks at the moment, Sirotkin isn't looking good either. I think I would have rated Werhlien as around the 15th best driver out there last year. Not that good but reasonable.

Hartley should have stuck to Fly Fishing, but Wehrlein would not be much of an upgrade. Massa is hanging around in the pits, so is Di Resta.

Edit, or maybe a couple of races from Button just as a yardstick. He seems to work well with Honda.

moby wrote:Hartley should have stuck to Fly Fishing, but Wehrlein would not be much of an upgrade. Massa is hanging around in the pits, so is Di Resta.

Edit, or maybe a couple of races from Button just as a yardstick. He seems to work well with Honda.

I disagree. Pascal is definitely a strong driver. People don't seem to like him but he's quick.

sandman1347 wrote:

moby wrote:Hartley should have stuck to Fly Fishing, but Wehrlein would not be much of an upgrade. Massa is hanging around in the pits, so is Di Resta.

Edit, or maybe a couple of races from Button just as a yardstick. He seems to work well with Honda.

I disagree. Pascal is definitely a strong driver. People don't seem to like him but he's quick.

He is also out of a job. There seems to be a reason people don't like him.
Some say he is 'not a team player' but I think that goes for anyone who drives a race car at this level, some say he is 'difficult to get on with'.

We have seen many difficult drivers who were team leaders though. It may be a combination of all and more, but if he was good enough I think he would still be driving, as he was Merc golden boy.

moby wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

moby wrote:Hartley should have stuck to Fly Fishing, but Wehrlein would not be much of an upgrade. Massa is hanging around in the pits, so is Di Resta.

Edit, or maybe a couple of races from Button just as a yardstick. He seems to work well with Honda.

I disagree. Pascal is definitely a strong driver. People don't seem to like him but he's quick.

He is also out of a job. There seems to be a reason people don't like him.
Some say he is 'not a team player' but I think that goes for anyone who drives a race car at this level, some say he is 'difficult to get on with'.

We have seen many difficult drivers who were team leaders though. It may be a combination of all and more, but if he was good enough I think he would still be driving, as he was Merc golden boy.

Merc has plenty of golden boys. My understanding is that it was his personality and work habits that cost him his seat; not his driving. Certainly he has been better than his teammates and it seemed strange for him to be out of a drive while the likes of Marcus Erickson are still on the grid. Either way, I do think he deserves a second chance. Hartley is a waste of a seat IMO.

sandman1347 wrote:

moby wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

moby wrote:Hartley should have stuck to Fly Fishing, but Wehrlein would not be much of an upgrade. Massa is hanging around in the pits, so is Di Resta.

Edit, or maybe a couple of races from Button just as a yardstick. He seems to work well with Honda.

I disagree. Pascal is definitely a strong driver. People don't seem to like him but he's quick.

He is also out of a job. There seems to be a reason people don't like him.
Some say he is 'not a team player' but I think that goes for anyone who drives a race car at this level, some say he is 'difficult to get on with'.

We have seen many difficult drivers who were team leaders though. It may be a combination of all and more, but if he was good enough I think he would still be driving, as he was Merc golden boy.

Merc has plenty of golden boys. My understanding is that it was his personality and work habits that cost him his seat; not his driving. Certainly he has been better than his teammates and it seemed strange for him to be out of a drive while the likes of Marcus Erickson are still on the grid. Either way, I do think he deserves a second chance. Hartley is a waste of a seat IMO.

I've said it before, but to add to that let's not lose sight of the circumstances in which Wehrlein was dropped under. Ferrari greatly increased their relationship with Sauber for 2018, and I would put money on the Alfa Romeo sponsorship coming with a contractual obligation for Sauber to field at least one Ferrari junior driver (assuming Ferrari have someone they want in that seat). I would also imagine that Ferrari wouldn't have been willing to accept a situation where Sauber then fielded a Mercedes junior driver in the other seat, particularly when Ferrari themselves had a second junior driver they were trying to find a seat for in Giovinazzi.

I suspect a combination of Ferrari's increased presence plus Ericsson's connections to the Sauber owners are what cost Wehrlein the seat, rather than anything to do with his performance/attitude.

sandman1347 wrote:

moby wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

moby wrote:Hartley should have stuck to Fly Fishing, but Wehrlein would not be much of an upgrade. Massa is hanging around in the pits, so is Di Resta.

Edit, or maybe a couple of races from Button just as a yardstick. He seems to work well with Honda.

I disagree. Pascal is definitely a strong driver. People don't seem to like him but he's quick.

He is also out of a job. There seems to be a reason people don't like him.
Some say he is 'not a team player' but I think that goes for anyone who drives a race car at this level, some say he is 'difficult to get on with'.

We have seen many difficult drivers who were team leaders though. It may be a combination of all and more, but if he was good enough I think he would still be driving, as he was Merc golden boy.

Merc has plenty of golden boys. My understanding is that it was his personality and work habits that cost him his seat; not his driving. Certainly he has been better than his teammates and it seemed strange for him to be out of a drive while the likes of Marcus Erickson are still on the grid. Either way, I do think he deserves a second chance. Hartley is a waste of a seat IMO.

(and Jenson's Understeer)

I feel that is he was truly rated he would have got the seat at Williams, as they had so much 'trouble' finding the right driver, or indeed kept his own seat.
Anyway, thats just my personal opinion, and I do agree he could hardly be worse then Hartley, but would not be on my list, then I do not make the choice so not that relevant.

pokerman wrote:

Huw wrote:Agree with all the posts above and what's more, I've long felt that the treatment dished out to Daniil Kvyat was damn harsh. Bit of a brutal regime under Dr. Marko, methinks.

Kvyat was given fair chance, he had 4 years in F1 and was inferior to Ricciardo, Verstappen and Sainz.

Baloney.

He was doing as well as Ricciardo when he was axed. You've gone ahead and bought into the media hype as to why he was axed instead of realizing that the only reason he was "demoted" was because Verstappen was being wined and dined by others and Red bull reacted rather than risk losing their young gun driver.

His dive down the inside of Vettel is STILL one of the best moves of the entire season and Vettel was wrong to criticize him for making the move because he himself would have gone for it. Hell, Ricciardo has divebombed far worse than than and he received praise for doing so. His ramming into Vettel in Russia was a joke because the initial contact was in fact his fault but incidental, and Vettel was able to continue on, YET…
once in the next corner Vettel Lifted in an area of track where everyone is accelerating pretty hard. If you look you will notice everyone maintains a steady momentum yet Vettels car lurches rearward indicating he lifted and he left Kvyat with nowhere to go.

The demotion seemed to have demotivated him but he's a damn good driver.

Hartley on the other hand looks almost as good as Badoer in 2009, although this weekend he looked much improved.

Huw wrote:Agree with all the posts above and what's more, I've long felt that the treatment dished out to Daniil Kvyat was damn harsh. Bit of a brutal regime under Dr. Marko, methinks.

How was Kvyat treated harshly? Red Bull gave him his break in F1 as a teenager, promoted him to the big league after just one season and when he proved to not quite be good enough they gave him almost two years to regroup and try again. Kvyat was given opportunities by Red Bull most drivers who make F1 will never come close to getting.

I really fail to see what more they were supposed to do for him? Yes the demotion was a little harsh but on balance Kvyat owes a hell of a lot to Red Bull. It's hardly like he was just given up on.

F1 MERCENARY wrote:He was doing as well as Ricciardo when he was axed. You've gone ahead and bought into the media hype as to why he was axed instead of realizing that the only reason he was "demoted" was because Verstappen was being wined and dined by others and Red bull reacted rather than risk losing their young gun driver.

He was not. I'm with you that he wasn't fired for his performance, but it gave them a convenient excuse - and through the first four races of 2016:

Australia: Kvyat out-qualified by Ricciardo by over a second. No race comparison to be made.
Bahrain: Kvyat out-qualified by Ricciardo by over a second again, and finishes a lap down relative to his teammate.
China: Kvyat manages to get within 4 tenths of his teammate this time, and lucks into a podium when Ricciardo suffers a puncture while leading.
Russia: Kvyat again qualifies about 4 tenths off his teammate, and makes a mistake on lap one that ruins his race.

I don't know in what world all of that is supposed to equal him doing as well as Ricciardo. I think you've gone ahead and bought the hype of his podium, ignoring the fact that it was gifted to him by complete luck. And then after being fired he lost the plot completely and spent the rest of the year looking like a completely third-rate driver alongside Sainz.

Exediron wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:He was doing as well as Ricciardo when he was axed. You've gone ahead and bought into the media hype as to why he was axed instead of realizing that the only reason he was "demoted" was because Verstappen was being wined and dined by others and Red bull reacted rather than risk losing their young gun driver.

He was not. I'm with you that he wasn't fired for his performance, but it gave them a convenient excuse - and through the first four races of 2016:

Australia: Kvyat out-qualified by Ricciardo by over a second. No race comparison to be made.
Bahrain: Kvyat out-qualified by Ricciardo by over a second again, and finishes a lap down relative to his teammate.
China: Kvyat manages to get within 4 tenths of his teammate this time, and lucks into a podium when Ricciardo suffers a puncture while leading.
Russia: Kvyat again qualifies about 4 tenths off his teammate, and makes a mistake on lap one that ruins his race.

I don't know in what world all of that is supposed to equal him doing as well as Ricciardo. I think you've gone ahead and bought the hype of his podium, ignoring the fact that it was gifted to him by complete luck. And then after being fired he lost the plot completely and spent the rest of the year looking like a completely third-rate driver alongside Sainz.

Australia and Bahrain qualies were screwy because of the BS sliding knockout timer thing, or whatever you call it, that year which was really stupid and RB screwed Kvyats qualies because they couldn't adjust to it. Ric was obviously a priority. He wasn't equal to Ricciardo, but he was close. He had a great race in China if a bit lucky. His mistake in Russia wasn't nearly as big of deal as it was made out to me. Vettel was in part responsible for it.

Wehrlein to replace Hartley at STR? - I would like to see that! But Wehrlein's Mercedes link (he is a Merc factory driver) may make that difficult.

typaH4okc wrote:

Exediron wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:He was doing as well as Ricciardo when he was axed. You've gone ahead and bought into the media hype as to why he was axed instead of realizing that the only reason he was "demoted" was because Verstappen was being wined and dined by others and Red bull reacted rather than risk losing their young gun driver.

He was not. I'm with you that he wasn't fired for his performance, but it gave them a convenient excuse - and through the first four races of 2016:

Australia: Kvyat out-qualified by Ricciardo by over a second. No race comparison to be made.
Bahrain: Kvyat out-qualified by Ricciardo by over a second again, and finishes a lap down relative to his teammate.
China: Kvyat manages to get within 4 tenths of his teammate this time, and lucks into a podium when Ricciardo suffers a puncture while leading.
Russia: Kvyat again qualifies about 4 tenths off his teammate, and makes a mistake on lap one that ruins his race.

I don't know in what world all of that is supposed to equal him doing as well as Ricciardo. I think you've gone ahead and bought the hype of his podium, ignoring the fact that it was gifted to him by complete luck. And then after being fired he lost the plot completely and spent the rest of the year looking like a completely third-rate driver alongside Sainz.

Australia and Bahrain qualies were screwy because of the BS sliding knockout timer thing, or whatever you call it, that year which was really stupid and RB screwed Kvyats qualies because they couldn't adjust to it. Ric was obviously a priority. He wasn't equal to Ricciardo, but he was close. He had a great race in China if a bit lucky. His mistake in Russia wasn't nearly as big of deal as it was made out to me. Vettel was in part responsible for it.

But surely you agree it's untrue to say he was doing as well as Ricciardo when axed?

mikeyg123 wrote:

typaH4okc wrote:
Australia and Bahrain qualies were screwy because of the BS sliding knockout timer thing, or whatever you call it, that year which was really stupid and RB screwed Kvyats qualies because they couldn't adjust to it. Ric was obviously a priority. He wasn't equal to Ricciardo, but he was close. He had a great race in China if a bit lucky. His mistake in Russia wasn't nearly as big of deal as it was made out to me. Vettel was in part responsible for it.

But surely you agree it's untrue to say he was doing as well as Ricciardo when axed?

if you want to be really particular then yes, and I did say it in my post.

What is the pecking order of young Red Bull drivers at the moment, they can’t have many lined up as Hartley landed the Toro Rosso driver in the first place.

moby wrote:Hartley should have stuck to Fly Fishing

Definitely showing my age by finding this funny though......

sandman1347 wrote:

moby wrote:Hartley should have stuck to Fly Fishing, but Wehrlein would not be much of an upgrade. Massa is hanging around in the pits, so is Di Resta.

Edit, or maybe a couple of races from Button just as a yardstick. He seems to work well with Honda.

I disagree. Pascal is definitely a strong driver. People don't seem to like him but he's quick.

He was quickish. Certainly quicker than Marcus. But as has been said on this page earlier, the trouncing that Leclerc is now giving Ericsson puts that Wehrlein's 2017 performance into a bit of perspective.

Exediron wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:He was doing as well as Ricciardo when he was axed. You've gone ahead and bought into the media hype as to why he was axed instead of realizing that the only reason he was "demoted" was because Verstappen was being wined and dined by others and Red bull reacted rather than risk losing their young gun driver.

He was not. I'm with you that he wasn't fired for his performance, but it gave them a convenient excuse - and through the first four races of 2016:

Australia: Kvyat out-qualified by Ricciardo by over a second. No race comparison to be made.
Bahrain: Kvyat out-qualified by Ricciardo by over a second again, and finishes a lap down relative to his teammate.
China: Kvyat manages to get within 4 tenths of his teammate this time, and lucks into a podium when Ricciardo suffers a puncture while leading.
Russia: Kvyat again qualifies about 4 tenths off his teammate, and makes a mistake on lap one that ruins his race.

I don't know in what world all of that is supposed to equal him doing as well as Ricciardo. I think you've gone ahead and bought the hype of his podium, ignoring the fact that it was gifted to him by complete luck. And then after being fired he lost the plot completely and spent the rest of the year looking like a completely third-rate driver alongside Sainz.

I've just thought of something interesting. Kvyat had 21 points by the 4th race when he was kicked out. Verstappen this year had 18 points by the 4th race. Should he have been dumped? I honestly can't say his season looked better by Baku than Kvyat's in early 2016. Despite it being lucky, his performance in China was a highlight. I do think that Kvyat's form won't have dropped anything like as much as it did if they just kept him until the end of the season. Given the situation in Spain, I think he likely could have managed a podium at least. While at the same time, Verstappen could have done a much better job as Toro Rosso. And I also think that Kvyat wouldn't have slumped so much if he had gone back to Toro Rosso at the start of the season and having time to prepare with the team rather than part way through.

But I do think the mistake that was made was sending Kvyat to Red Bull too soon. I think that ruined his performance. Although it may not be that fun, if he had stayed at Toro Rosso from 2014 the whole time, I think he'll have just kept getting better and be ready about now to step up. The way Red Bull dealt with him just was wrong IMO. The main thing Kvyat should have done was cope better when getting dumped by Red Bull. But I don't think he'd be out the sport now if they had just waited until the end of the season.

Just so I stay on topic, my view on Hartly is that we need to give him more time. Wehrlein may have some experience, but I don't think he'd be much better really. Pace wise, he didn't look better than Ericsson really. Just wait and see how Hartly performs until the end of the year at least.

F1 MERCENARY wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Huw wrote:Agree with all the posts above and what's more, I've long felt that the treatment dished out to Daniil Kvyat was damn harsh. Bit of a brutal regime under Dr. Marko, methinks.

Kvyat was given fair chance, he had 4 years in F1 and was inferior to Ricciardo, Verstappen and Sainz.

Baloney.

He was doing as well as Ricciardo when he was axed. You've gone ahead and bought into the media hype as to why he was axed instead of realizing that the only reason he was "demoted" was because Verstappen was being wined and dined by others and Red bull reacted rather than risk losing their young gun driver.

His dive down the inside of Vettel is STILL one of the best moves of the entire season and Vettel was wrong to criticize him for making the move because he himself would have gone for it. Hell, Ricciardo has divebombed far worse than than and he received praise for doing so. His ramming into Vettel in Russia was a joke because the initial contact was in fact his fault but incidental, and Vettel was able to continue on, YET…
once in the next corner Vettel Lifted in an area of track where everyone is accelerating pretty hard. If you look you will notice everyone maintains a steady momentum yet Vettels car lurches rearward indicating he lifted and he left Kvyat with nowhere to go.

The demotion seemed to have demotivated him but he's a damn good driver.

Hartley on the other hand looks almost as good as Badoer in 2009, although this weekend he looked much improved.

Kvyat should have been kept because of one dive bomb that payed off and triggered multiple incidents to the leaders that allowed him a lucky second place finish, all this disguising the fact that he was getting demolished by Ricciardo in terms of speed, the accident with Vettel just speeded up the inevitable for Kvyat.

Johnson wrote:What is the pecking order of young Red Bull drivers at the moment, they can’t have many lined up as Hartley landed the Toro Rosso driver in the first place.

They have no one in the pipeline that is ready for F1.

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

Exediron wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:He was doing as well as Ricciardo when he was axed. You've gone ahead and bought into the media hype as to why he was axed instead of realizing that the only reason he was "demoted" was because Verstappen was being wined and dined by others and Red bull reacted rather than risk losing their young gun driver.

He was not. I'm with you that he wasn't fired for his performance, but it gave them a convenient excuse - and through the first four races of 2016:

Australia: Kvyat out-qualified by Ricciardo by over a second. No race comparison to be made.
Bahrain: Kvyat out-qualified by Ricciardo by over a second again, and finishes a lap down relative to his teammate.
China: Kvyat manages to get within 4 tenths of his teammate this time, and lucks into a podium when Ricciardo suffers a puncture while leading.
Russia: Kvyat again qualifies about 4 tenths off his teammate, and makes a mistake on lap one that ruins his race.

I don't know in what world all of that is supposed to equal him doing as well as Ricciardo. I think you've gone ahead and bought the hype of his podium, ignoring the fact that it was gifted to him by complete luck. And then after being fired he lost the plot completely and spent the rest of the year looking like a completely third-rate driver alongside Sainz.

I've just thought of something interesting. Kvyat had 21 points by the 4th race when he was kicked out. Verstappen this year had 18 points by the 4th race. Should he have been dumped? I honestly can't say his season looked better by Baku than Kvyat's in early 2016. Despite it being lucky, his performance in China was a highlight. I do think that Kvyat's form won't have dropped anything like as much as it did if they just kept him until the end of the season. Given the situation in Spain, I think he likely could have managed a podium at least. While at the same time, Verstappen could have done a much better job as Toro Rosso. And I also think that Kvyat wouldn't have slumped so much if he had gone back to Toro Rosso at the start of the season and having time to prepare with the team rather than part way through.

But I do think the mistake that was made was sending Kvyat to Red Bull too soon. I think that ruined his performance. Although it may not be that fun, if he had stayed at Toro Rosso from 2014 the whole time, I think he'll have just kept getting better and be ready about now to step up. The way Red Bull dealt with him just was wrong IMO. The main thing Kvyat should have done was cope better when getting dumped by Red Bull. But I don't think he'd be out the sport now if they had just waited until the end of the season.

Just so I stay on topic, my view on Hartly is that we need to give him more time. Wehrlein may have some experience, but I don't think he'd be much better really. Pace wise, he didn't look better than Ericsson really. Just wait and see how Hartly performs until the end of the year at least.

Still a big difference in performance level with Verstappen out qualifying Ricciardo whilst Kvyat was getting thrashed by Ricciardo, Kvyat simply wasn't quick enough, some seem to think that Kvyat got dropped simply because he crashed into Vettel and then Vettel complained about him it seems?

pokerman wrote:

Johnson wrote:What is the pecking order of young Red Bull drivers at the moment, they can’t have many lined up as Hartley landed the Toro Rosso driver in the first place.

They have no one in the pipeline that is ready for F1.

This is one of the deciding factors imho as to whether Hartley stays.

Another is that the RB group do not hire from outside unless they absolutely have to as in Hartley's case. There's a big difference between a WEC champion who was once a RB driver, and a rival Mercedes driver. I can't see RB using anyone else's young drivers.

What's more, they already have a proven driver to replace Hartley. Carlos Sainz. Obviously, I don't know the terms of the loan deal, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's a get out clause. That would make him a huge bargaining chip.

Perhaps Hartley's future actually depends on how Renault and RB resolve the deadline issue for whether RB will use Renault or Honda engines in 2019?

Have fun

Shia Luck wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Johnson wrote:What is the pecking order of young Red Bull drivers at the moment, they can’t have many lined up as Hartley landed the Toro Rosso driver in the first place.

They have no one in the pipeline that is ready for F1.

This is one of the deciding factors imho as to whether Hartley stays.

Another is that the RB group do not hire from outside unless they absolutely have to as in Hartley's case. There's a big difference between a WEC champion who was once a RB driver, and a rival Mercedes driver. I can't see RB using anyone else's young drivers.

What's more, they already have a proven driver to replace Hartley. Carlos Sainz. Obviously, I don't know the terms of the loan deal, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's a get out clause. That would make him a huge bargaining chip.

Perhaps Hartley's future actually depends on how Renault and RB resolve the deadline issue for whether RB will use Renault or Honda engines in 2019?

Have fun

Verstappen was hired from outside the system, but I get the point you are making.

pokerman wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

Exediron wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:He was doing as well as Ricciardo when he was axed. You've gone ahead and bought into the media hype as to why he was axed instead of realizing that the only reason he was "demoted" was because Verstappen was being wined and dined by others and Red bull reacted rather than risk losing their young gun driver.

He was not. I'm with you that he wasn't fired for his performance, but it gave them a convenient excuse - and through the first four races of 2016:

Australia: Kvyat out-qualified by Ricciardo by over a second. No race comparison to be made.
Bahrain: Kvyat out-qualified by Ricciardo by over a second again, and finishes a lap down relative to his teammate.
China: Kvyat manages to get within 4 tenths of his teammate this time, and lucks into a podium when Ricciardo suffers a puncture while leading.
Russia: Kvyat again qualifies about 4 tenths off his teammate, and makes a mistake on lap one that ruins his race.

I don't know in what world all of that is supposed to equal him doing as well as Ricciardo. I think you've gone ahead and bought the hype of his podium, ignoring the fact that it was gifted to him by complete luck. And then after being fired he lost the plot completely and spent the rest of the year looking like a completely third-rate driver alongside Sainz.

I've just thought of something interesting. Kvyat had 21 points by the 4th race when he was kicked out. Verstappen this year had 18 points by the 4th race. Should he have been dumped? I honestly can't say his season looked better by Baku than Kvyat's in early 2016. Despite it being lucky, his performance in China was a highlight. I do think that Kvyat's form won't have dropped anything like as much as it did if they just kept him until the end of the season. Given the situation in Spain, I think he likely could have managed a podium at least. While at the same time, Verstappen could have done a much better job as Toro Rosso. And I also think that Kvyat wouldn't have slumped so much if he had gone back to Toro Rosso at the start of the season and having time to prepare with the team rather than part way through.

But I do think the mistake that was made was sending Kvyat to Red Bull too soon. I think that ruined his performance. Although it may not be that fun, if he had stayed at Toro Rosso from 2014 the whole time, I think he'll have just kept getting better and be ready about now to step up. The way Red Bull dealt with him just was wrong IMO. The main thing Kvyat should have done was cope better when getting dumped by Red Bull. But I don't think he'd be out the sport now if they had just waited until the end of the season.

Just so I stay on topic, my view on Hartly is that we need to give him more time. Wehrlein may have some experience, but I don't think he'd be much better really. Pace wise, he didn't look better than Ericsson really. Just wait and see how Hartly performs until the end of the year at least.

Still a big difference in performance level with Verstappen out qualifying Ricciardo whilst Kvyat was getting thrashed by Ricciardo, Kvyat simply wasn't quick enough, some seem to think that Kvyat got dropped simply because he crashed into Vettel and then Vettel complained about him it seems?

I don't think it was because of that only no. But there is something about Kvyat that is starting to make me think Sainz is very over rated. When Kvyat was back at Toro Rosso, he basically matched Sainz over 1 lap pace in qualifying, especially in their 2nd year together. Averaged out, I think they were the 2nd closest pair of team mates after Sauber. It was indeed clear that Ricciardo dominated Kvyat in qualifying. And given that pretty recently, Kvyat was as good as Sainz in this area, I think it shows that Sainz isn't that great here. Then following that, Ricciardo who dominated Kvyat is now actually clearly not quite as fast as Verstappen over one lap on the whole. I think Verstappen's pace has improved a lot. But I think Sainz's one lap pace is actually pretty poor (unless kvyat's wasn't) and so is his consistency. I know I've gone a bit off topic here, and although I think Sainz is reasonable overall, I think some of these statistics with Kvyat show that he isn't very good in some areas.

I just don't like that Red Bull, Renault and Toro Rosso all have kicked out and brought in drivers (toro Rosso bringing in totally new drivers). I just don't think it is right. If you are unsure about your drivers from the previous season, don't have them next season and you will probably be better off as the replacement driver will have more time to get used to the team and help the progress.

pokerman wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Huw wrote:Agree with all the posts above and what's more, I've long felt that the treatment dished out to Daniil Kvyat was damn harsh. Bit of a brutal regime under Dr. Marko, methinks.

Kvyat was given fair chance, he had 4 years in F1 and was inferior to Ricciardo, Verstappen and Sainz.

Baloney.

He was doing as well as Ricciardo when he was axed. You've gone ahead and bought into the media hype as to why he was axed instead of realizing that the only reason he was "demoted" was because Verstappen was being wined and dined by others and Red bull reacted rather than risk losing their young gun driver.

His dive down the inside of Vettel is STILL one of the best moves of the entire season and Vettel was wrong to criticize him for making the move because he himself would have gone for it. Hell, Ricciardo has divebombed far worse than than and he received praise for doing so. His ramming into Vettel in Russia was a joke because the initial contact was in fact his fault but incidental, and Vettel was able to continue on, YET…
once in the next corner Vettel Lifted in an area of track where everyone is accelerating pretty hard. If you look you will notice everyone maintains a steady momentum yet Vettels car lurches rearward indicating he lifted and he left Kvyat with nowhere to go.

The demotion seemed to have demotivated him but he's a damn good driver.

Hartley on the other hand looks almost as good as Badoer in 2009, although this weekend he looked much improved.

Kvyat should have been kept because of one dive bomb that payed off and triggered multiple incidents to the leaders that allowed him a lucky second place finish, all this disguising the fact that he was getting demolished by Ricciardo in terms of speed, the accident with Vettel just speeded up the inevitable for Kvyat.

Divebomb My hind quarters!
That was a hellaciously BEAUTIFULLY FLAWLESS MOVE!!!
Now, some of Ricciardo's divebombs have been absurdly STUPID and Ill-Advised and he was rather fortunate on several occasions that the defending driver saw what was about to happen and moved out of the way rather than suffer a DNF!!!

I mean his 19 car length lockup inspired a thread called "Ricciardo is a Late braking God" even though it was one of the poorest judgement calls in his career.
And I'm a fan of Ricciardo and realize what a terrific driver he is, but I'd never offer blind praise to a driver just because I fancy them. I'm not a blind fanboy.
And for the record, Kvyat didn't trigger anything in China outside catch Vettel not paying attention and THAT'S what caused the issue. To place ANY of it on Kvyat is simply wrong and Senna would curse anyone's family for generations for even contemplating blaming Kvyat.

mikeyg123 wrote:

Shia Luck wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Johnson wrote:What is the pecking order of young Red Bull drivers at the moment, they can’t have many lined up as Hartley landed the Toro Rosso driver in the first place.

They have no one in the pipeline that is ready for F1.

This is one of the deciding factors imho as to whether Hartley stays.

Another is that the RB group do not hire from outside unless they absolutely have to as in Hartley's case. There's a big difference between a WEC champion who was once a RB driver, and a rival Mercedes driver. I can't see RB using anyone else's young drivers.

What's more, they already have a proven driver to replace Hartley. Carlos Sainz. Obviously, I don't know the terms of the loan deal, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's a get out clause. That would make him a huge bargaining chip.

Perhaps Hartley's future actually depends on how Renault and RB resolve the deadline issue for whether RB will use Renault or Honda engines in 2019?

Have fun

Verstappen was hired from outside the system, but I get the point you are making.

I am sure you do. From RB's point of view , they HAD to hire Verstappen, no?

I do feel that loaning Sainz to Renault was a tactical move to give RB the upper hand in engine negotiations. There really was no other need for RB to do that last year otherwise. STR did lose the constructor place to Renault after that decision. I do recognise the horrendous reliability STR suffered at the end of the season that facilitated that position change. but loaning Sainz didn't help either RB team in any other way, no?

Have fun

Shia Luck wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Johnson wrote:What is the pecking order of young Red Bull drivers at the moment, they can’t have many lined up as Hartley landed the Toro Rosso driver in the first place.

They have no one in the pipeline that is ready for F1.

This is one of the deciding factors imho as to whether Hartley stays.

Another is that the RB group do not hire from outside unless they absolutely have to as in Hartley's case. There's a big difference between a WEC champion who was once a RB driver, and a rival Mercedes driver. I can't see RB using anyone else's young drivers.

What's more, they already have a proven driver to replace Hartley. Carlos Sainz. Obviously, I don't know the terms of the loan deal, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's a get out clause. That would make him a huge bargaining chip.

Perhaps Hartley's future actually depends on how Renault and RB resolve the deadline issue for whether RB will use Renault or Honda engines in 2019?

Have fun

Sainz only comes back to drive for Red Bull and not STR.

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

pokerman wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

Exediron wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:He was doing as well as Ricciardo when he was axed. You've gone ahead and bought into the media hype as to why he was axed instead of realizing that the only reason he was "demoted" was because Verstappen was being wined and dined by others and Red bull reacted rather than risk losing their young gun driver.

He was not. I'm with you that he wasn't fired for his performance, but it gave them a convenient excuse - and through the first four races of 2016:

Australia: Kvyat out-qualified by Ricciardo by over a second. No race comparison to be made.
Bahrain: Kvyat out-qualified by Ricciardo by over a second again, and finishes a lap down relative to his teammate.
China: Kvyat manages to get within 4 tenths of his teammate this time, and lucks into a podium when Ricciardo suffers a puncture while leading.
Russia: Kvyat again qualifies about 4 tenths off his teammate, and makes a mistake on lap one that ruins his race.

I don't know in what world all of that is supposed to equal him doing as well as Ricciardo. I think you've gone ahead and bought the hype of his podium, ignoring the fact that it was gifted to him by complete luck. And then after being fired he lost the plot completely and spent the rest of the year looking like a completely third-rate driver alongside Sainz.

I've just thought of something interesting. Kvyat had 21 points by the 4th race when he was kicked out. Verstappen this year had 18 points by the 4th race. Should he have been dumped? I honestly can't say his season looked better by Baku than Kvyat's in early 2016. Despite it being lucky, his performance in China was a highlight. I do think that Kvyat's form won't have dropped anything like as much as it did if they just kept him until the end of the season. Given the situation in Spain, I think he likely could have managed a podium at least. While at the same time, Verstappen could have done a much better job as Toro Rosso. And I also think that Kvyat wouldn't have slumped so much if he had gone back to Toro Rosso at the start of the season and having time to prepare with the team rather than part way through.

But I do think the mistake that was made was sending Kvyat to Red Bull too soon. I think that ruined his performance. Although it may not be that fun, if he had stayed at Toro Rosso from 2014 the whole time, I think he'll have just kept getting better and be ready about now to step up. The way Red Bull dealt with him just was wrong IMO. The main thing Kvyat should have done was cope better when getting dumped by Red Bull. But I don't think he'd be out the sport now if they had just waited until the end of the season.

Just so I stay on topic, my view on Hartly is that we need to give him more time. Wehrlein may have some experience, but I don't think he'd be much better really. Pace wise, he didn't look better than Ericsson really. Just wait and see how Hartly performs until the end of the year at least.

Still a big difference in performance level with Verstappen out qualifying Ricciardo whilst Kvyat was getting thrashed by Ricciardo, Kvyat simply wasn't quick enough, some seem to think that Kvyat got dropped simply because he crashed into Vettel and then Vettel complained about him it seems?

I don't think it was because of that only no. But there is something about Kvyat that is starting to make me think Sainz is very over rated. When Kvyat was back at Toro Rosso, he basically matched Sainz over 1 lap pace in qualifying, especially in their 2nd year together. Averaged out, I think they were the 2nd closest pair of team mates after Sauber. It was indeed clear that Ricciardo dominated Kvyat in qualifying. And given that pretty recently, Kvyat was as good as Sainz in this area, I think it shows that Sainz isn't that great here. Then following that, Ricciardo who dominated Kvyat is now actually clearly not quite as fast as Verstappen over one lap on the whole. I think Verstappen's pace has improved a lot. But I think Sainz's one lap pace is actually pretty poor (unless kvyat's wasn't) and so is his consistency. I know I've gone a bit off topic here, and although I think Sainz is reasonable overall, I think some of these statistics with Kvyat show that he isn't very good in some areas.

I just don't like that Red Bull, Renault and Toro Rosso all have kicked out and brought in drivers (toro Rosso bringing in totally new drivers). I just don't think it is right. If you are unsure about your drivers from the previous season, don't have them next season and you will probably be better off as the replacement driver will have more time to get used to the team and help the progress.

Sainz out qualified Kvyat 8-4 at an average of 0.12s, that's not what I call Kvyat matching Sainz, but the Sainz being over rated bit might be true with him presently getting beat by the Hulk.

F1 MERCENARY wrote:

pokerman wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Huw wrote:Agree with all the posts above and what's more, I've long felt that the treatment dished out to Daniil Kvyat was damn harsh. Bit of a brutal regime under Dr. Marko, methinks.

Kvyat was given fair chance, he had 4 years in F1 and was inferior to Ricciardo, Verstappen and Sainz.

Baloney.

He was doing as well as Ricciardo when he was axed. You've gone ahead and bought into the media hype as to why he was axed instead of realizing that the only reason he was "demoted" was because Verstappen was being wined and dined by others and Red bull reacted rather than risk losing their young gun driver.

His dive down the inside of Vettel is STILL one of the best moves of the entire season and Vettel was wrong to criticize him for making the move because he himself would have gone for it. Hell, Ricciardo has divebombed far worse than than and he received praise for doing so. His ramming into Vettel in Russia was a joke because the initial contact was in fact his fault but incidental, and Vettel was able to continue on, YET…
once in the next corner Vettel Lifted in an area of track where everyone is accelerating pretty hard. If you look you will notice everyone maintains a steady momentum yet Vettels car lurches rearward indicating he lifted and he left Kvyat with nowhere to go.

The demotion seemed to have demotivated him but he's a damn good driver.

Hartley on the other hand looks almost as good as Badoer in 2009, although this weekend he looked much improved.

Kvyat should have been kept because of one dive bomb that payed off and triggered multiple incidents to the leaders that allowed him a lucky second place finish, all this disguising the fact that he was getting demolished by Ricciardo in terms of speed, the accident with Vettel just speeded up the inevitable for Kvyat.

Divebomb My hind quarters!
That was a hellaciously BEAUTIFULLY FLAWLESS MOVE!!!
Now, some of Ricciardo's divebombs have been absurdly STUPID and Ill-Advised and he was rather fortunate on several occasions that the defending driver saw what was about to happen and moved out of the way rather than suffer a DNF!!!

I mean his 19 car length lockup inspired a thread called "Ricciardo is a Late braking God" even though it was one of the poorest judgement calls in his career.
And I'm a fan of Ricciardo and realize what a terrific driver he is, but I'd never offer blind praise to a driver just because I fancy them. I'm not a blind fanboy.
And for the record, Kvyat didn't trigger anything in China outside catch Vettel not paying attention and THAT'S what caused the issue. To place ANY of it on Kvyat is simply wrong and Senna would curse anyone's family for generations for even contemplating blaming Kvyat.

You describe a dive bomb as the driver in front having to get out of the way which is what Vettel had to do with Kvyat yet somehow that is not a dive bomb?

Vettel's reaction of getting out of the way like I said triggered a series of collisions that damaged 4 cars that would have beat Kvyat and this would be a basis of keeping Kvyat on that one second place result whilst in the rest of the races he was getting soundly beat by Ricciardo.

pokerman wrote:

Shia Luck wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Johnson wrote:What is the pecking order of young Red Bull drivers at the moment, they can’t have many lined up as Hartley landed the Toro Rosso driver in the first place.

They have no one in the pipeline that is ready for F1.

This is one of the deciding factors imho as to whether Hartley stays.

Another is that the RB group do not hire from outside unless they absolutely have to as in Hartley's case. There's a big difference between a WEC champion who was once a RB driver, and a rival Mercedes driver. I can't see RB using anyone else's young drivers.

What's more, they already have a proven driver to replace Hartley. Carlos Sainz. Obviously, I don't know the terms of the loan deal, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's a get out clause. That would make him a huge bargaining chip.

Perhaps Hartley's future actually depends on how Renault and RB resolve the deadline issue for whether RB will use Renault or Honda engines in 2019?

Have fun

Sainz only comes back to drive for Red Bull and not STR.

Really? Do you have a source for that perhaps?

If that's the actual deal it would be a very strange one for RB to make. They already had/have Sainz under a contract where they can put him in either team. Why would they renegotiate this mid contract to disadvantage themselves?

Have fun

Shia Luck wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Shia Luck wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Johnson wrote:What is the pecking order of young Red Bull drivers at the moment, they can’t have many lined up as Hartley landed the Toro Rosso driver in the first place.

They have no one in the pipeline that is ready for F1.

This is one of the deciding factors imho as to whether Hartley stays.

Another is that the RB group do not hire from outside unless they absolutely have to as in Hartley's case. There's a big difference between a WEC champion who was once a RB driver, and a rival Mercedes driver. I can't see RB using anyone else's young drivers.

What's more, they already have a proven driver to replace Hartley. Carlos Sainz. Obviously, I don't know the terms of the loan deal, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's a get out clause. That would make him a huge bargaining chip.

Perhaps Hartley's future actually depends on how Renault and RB resolve the deadline issue for whether RB will use Renault or Honda engines in 2019?

Have fun

Sainz only comes back to drive for Red Bull and not STR.

Really? Do you have a source for that perhaps?

If that's the actual deal it would be a very strange one for RB to make. They already had/have Sainz under a contract where they can put him in either team. Why would they renegotiate this mid contract to disadvantage themselves?

Have fun

Letting Sainz go mid season massively disadvantaged them so I would suggest there are numerous forces at play.

pokerman wrote: Sainz out qualified Kvyat 8-4 at an average of 0.12s, that's not what I call Kvyat matching Sainz, but the Sainz being over rated bit might be true with him presently getting beat by the Hulk.

Kvyat was 6-8 against Sainz last year at an average of .06, no significant difference.