[merged] Red Bull & Honda agree on engine deal

Forum rules
Please read the forum rules
owenmahamilton
Posts: 746
Joined: Thu Nov 28, 2013 11:29 am

[merged] Red Bull & Honda agree on engine deal

Post by owenmahamilton »

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13569 ... -2019-deal

I wonder what this means (if anything) for Toro Rosso. Would Red Bull want Honda engines in both teams?

Zoue
Posts: 25158
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am

Re: Red Bull starts formal talks with Honda over 2019 deal

Post by Zoue »

I’m guessing they would. More data and all that

Herb
Posts: 2418
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Red Bull starts formal talks with Honda over 2019 deal

Post by Herb »

They've done it before with Renault, so I don't see why not.

User avatar
UnlikeUday
Posts: 8940
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:53 pm
Location: Mumbai, India

Re: Red Bull starts formal talks with Honda over 2019 deal

Post by UnlikeUday »

Honda is much more reliable & is as powerful as Renault, if not more. If Red Bull go ahead with the Honda deal, they would unofficially be the factory team so as to speak. Red Bull's patience with Renualt has also run thin with both the cars suffering engine issues in the earlier races this season.

What I'm a little worried about is that does the Red Bull have a similar tight engine packing like McLaren? Red Bull is the only (Renault) team to have suffered engine issues. If there's is a tight engine packing space like McLaren, they may face similar headaches like the ones McLaren faced in the previous 3 years.
Feel The Fourth

Zoue
Posts: 25158
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am

Re: Red Bull starts formal talks with Honda over 2019 deal

Post by Zoue »

UnlikeUday wrote:Honda is much more reliable & is as powerful as Renault, if not more. If Red Bull go ahead with the Honda deal, they would unofficially be the factory team so as to speak. Red Bull's patience with Renualt has also run thin with both the cars suffering engine issues in the earlier races this season.

What I'm a little worried about is that does the Red Bull have a similar tight engine packing like McLaren? Red Bull is the only (Renault) team to have suffered engine issues. If there's is a tight engine packing space like McLaren, they may face similar headaches like the ones McLaren faced in the previous 3 years.
Haven't TR also suffered engine issues this year?

Yellowbin74
Posts: 838
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 6:28 pm

Re: Red Bull starts formal talks with Honda over 2019 deal

Post by Yellowbin74 »

UnlikeUday wrote:Honda is much more reliable & is as powerful as Renault, if not more. If Red Bull go ahead with the Honda deal, they would unofficially be the factory team so as to speak. Red Bull's patience with Renualt has also run thin with both the cars suffering engine issues in the earlier races this season.

What I'm a little worried about is that does the Red Bull have a similar tight engine packing like McLaren? Red Bull is the only (Renault) team to have suffered engine issues. If there's is a tight engine packing space like McLaren, they may face similar headaches like the ones McLaren faced in the previous 3 years.
That was my first though as well.
Should I grow a beard?

sandman1347
Posts: 6977
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm

Re: Red Bull starts formal talks with Honda over 2019 deal

Post by sandman1347 »

Red Bull are making a wise decision after making a very rash and foolish one back in 2015. They severed their own works status back then through impatience and entitlement and I think that they have learned since then that winning without a works deal will be all but impossible in this era (and probably the next). I think this move makes a lot of sense and I think Honda are going to come good. To my eyes, they are already at least on par with Renault. I have not seen anything to suggest otherwise. If they're smart, they will wait until the new regs for 2021 are announced and immediately shift the majority of their focus towards that engine and that car.

User avatar
UnlikeUday
Posts: 8940
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:53 pm
Location: Mumbai, India

Re: Red Bull starts formal talks with Honda over 2019 deal

Post by UnlikeUday »

Zoue wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:Honda is much more reliable & is as powerful as Renault, if not more. If Red Bull go ahead with the Honda deal, they would unofficially be the factory team so as to speak. Red Bull's patience with Renualt has also run thin with both the cars suffering engine issues in the earlier races this season.

What I'm a little worried about is that does the Red Bull have a similar tight engine packing like McLaren? Red Bull is the only (Renault) team to have suffered engine issues. If there's is a tight engine packing space like McLaren, they may face similar headaches like the ones McLaren faced in the previous 3 years.
Haven't TR also suffered engine issues this year?
Hartley did have but when compared to last 3 years, this year is such a smooth sailing for Honda.
Feel The Fourth

Zoue
Posts: 25158
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am

Re: Red Bull starts formal talks with Honda over 2019 deal

Post by Zoue »

UnlikeUday wrote:
Zoue wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:Honda is much more reliable & is as powerful as Renault, if not more. If Red Bull go ahead with the Honda deal, they would unofficially be the factory team so as to speak. Red Bull's patience with Renualt has also run thin with both the cars suffering engine issues in the earlier races this season.

What I'm a little worried about is that does the Red Bull have a similar tight engine packing like McLaren? Red Bull is the only (Renault) team to have suffered engine issues. If there's is a tight engine packing space like McLaren, they may face similar headaches like the ones McLaren faced in the previous 3 years.
Haven't TR also suffered engine issues this year?
Hartley did have but when compared to last 3 years, this year is such a smooth sailing for Honda.
no argument there. But in the previous post you mentioned Red Bull's patience running thin with both cars suffering engine issues (although IIRC the engine itself was ruled out as the cause), so it seems like jumping from the frying pan into the fire when TR had them, too.

User avatar
Johnson
Posts: 1534
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:20 am

Re: Red Bull starts formal talks with Honda over 2019 deal

Post by Johnson »

The way Red Bull threw Renault under the bus even when winning titles, I fear for Honda partnering with Red Bull. It will be Mclaren all over again. 2019 would definitely be a year too early IMO.

User avatar
Seanie
Posts: 2906
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 11:36 am

Re: Red Bull starts formal talks with Honda over 2019 deal

Post by Seanie »

Aren't Honda the only option? Merc and Ferrari are a no-go and they basically decided a year ago that they were done with Renault... What other options are there?
Warning: The above post may contain sarcasm.

User avatar
Mort Canard
Posts: 1614
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:58 am
Location: Kansas

Re: Red Bull starts formal talks with Honda over 2019 deal

Post by Mort Canard »

Would love to see Honda return to F1 as a significant engine supplier. I enjoyed Honda's glory days with both Williams and McLaren teams. :D

Actually I was not that much aware of F1 at the time but have since found Hondas 1960s successes with Ritchie Ginther and John Surtees to be inspiring. :nod:

Am not so much interested in seeing Fernando Alonso being proved wrong though. OTOH having a Red Bull team with enough power to go toe to toe with Merc and Ferrari would be nice. :thumbup:

Could be fun seeing Sebastian wishing he was back at RBR. :lol:
Mission WinLater

User avatar
Lt. Drebin
Posts: 4796
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:51 am

Re: Red Bull starts formal talks with Honda over 2019 deal

Post by Lt. Drebin »

Mort Canard wrote:Would love to see Honda return to F1 as a significant engine supplier. I enjoyed Honda's glory days with both Williams and McLaren teams. :D

Actually I was not that much aware of F1 at the time but have since found Hondas 1960s successes with Ritchie Ginther and John Surtees to be inspiring. :nod:

Am not so much interested in seeing Fernando Alonso being proved wrong though. OTOH having a Red Bull team with enough power to go toe to toe with Merc and Ferrari would be nice. :thumbup:

Could be fun seeing Sebastian wishing he was back at RBR. :lol:
With those crash prone drivers in RBR, don't you think that even RBR will not wish him? Sebastian will not stay forever with Ferrari. He may add another title with RBR-Honda after he get's this one or two at Ferrari. The guy is a born champion and does not bring problems to the team.
The end is near

AravJ
Posts: 1036
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:42 am

Re: Red Bull starts formal talks with Honda over 2019 deal

Post by AravJ »

Johnson wrote:The way Red Bull threw Renault under the bus even when winning titles, I fear for Honda partnering with Red Bull. It will be Mclaren all over again. 2019 would definitely be a year too early IMO.
Mclaren was much worse toward honda than RBR ever was to renualt. Difference is honda did not fight back but wanted to continue working with mclaren.
Having said that i hope RBR stays with Renualt. I have grown to like torro rosso with the way they are handling the honda partnership. They just dealt with the situation they were put in by RBR. It would be great if they can make their way from the rear midfield to the front as a works team. I do agree though that RBR may be too much pressure at this stage for honda. But i guess RBR calls the shots. It was their strategic call to take on honda with STR after all.

User avatar
Mayhem
Posts: 1328
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:32 pm

Re: Red Bull starts formal talks with Honda over 2019 deal

Post by Mayhem »

Didnt redbull team up with aston martin because of a possible engine supply deal with aston???

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13205 ... ton-engine
PF1 pick 10 2016: 7th (1 win, 4 podiums), 2017: 17th (3 podiums)
Awards: Sergio perez trophy & Podium specialist
PF1 pick 3 2015: constructors 2nd, singles 5th
Autosport Gp 2016/17 - 5th
F1 Oracle 2017: 2nd (6 wins), 2016:5th (2wins)

Kev627
Posts: 310
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:23 pm
Location: Amesbury

Re: Red Bull starts formal talks with Honda over 2019 deal

Post by Kev627 »

Mayhem wrote:Didnt redbull team up with aston martin because of a possible engine supply deal with aston???

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13205 ... ton-engine
Could Red Bull be having these discussions with Honda to make Aston realise they are going to have to provide a championship winning engine or RB will go elsewhere?

owenmahamilton
Posts: 746
Joined: Thu Nov 28, 2013 11:29 am

Re: Red Bull starts formal talks with Honda over 2019 deal

Post by owenmahamilton »

Mayhem wrote:Didnt redbull team up with aston martin because of a possible engine supply deal with aston???

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13205 ... ton-engine
That's for the new regulations starting in 2021, Red Bull need an engine to cover 2019 and 2020 as Renault have said that they won't supply Red Bull after 2018.

User avatar
Jezza13
Posts: 2467
Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 10:02 am
Location: Far side of Koozebane

Re: Red Bull starts formal talks with Honda over 2019 deal

Post by Jezza13 »

owenmahamilton wrote:
Mayhem wrote:Didnt redbull team up with aston martin because of a possible engine supply deal with aston???

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13205 ... ton-engine
That's for the new regulations starting in 2021, Red Bull need an engine to cover 2019 and 2020 as Renault have said that they won't supply Red Bull after 2018.
Yeah well that was the impression I got too but then there's reports Renault have left the ball in RB's court.

http://www.news.com.au/sport/motorsport ... 008cf10841
Great Quotes of the 20th Century

"You think I know f**k all.... I know f**k nothing" - Anonymous Maltese construction worker's response to being told he doesn't know how to do his job.

hotbmw
Posts: 201
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2010 6:49 pm

Honda Redbull

Post by hotbmw »

I am sure the Honda engine will keep improving but surely it wouldnt improve that much to catch ferrari and mercedes.

What are your predictions for Honda Redbull next year? Fighting with renault and force india?

User avatar
Mort Canard
Posts: 1614
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:58 am
Location: Kansas

Re: Honda Redbull

Post by Mort Canard »

hotbmw wrote:I am sure the Honda engine will keep improving but surely it wouldnt improve that much to catch ferrari and mercedes.

What are your predictions for Honda Redbull next year? Fighting with renault and force india?
Honda engines have earned championships with both McLaren and Williams for a total of 6. As engine supplier they have a total of 69 race wins over the years. As their own constructior they have 3 race wins.

If they decide to seriously go after the championship I don't doubt that they will do it.
Mission WinLater

hotbmw
Posts: 201
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2010 6:49 pm

Re: Honda Redbull

Post by hotbmw »

Do you think they can switch it on that fast that they are title contenders as early as next year????

User avatar
Mort Canard
Posts: 1614
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:58 am
Location: Kansas

Re: Honda Redbull

Post by Mort Canard »

hotbmw wrote:Do you think they can switch it on that fast that they are title contenders as early as next year????
Might be a long shot for next year.

See Honda in Formula 1 at Wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_in_Formula_One

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Gra ... e_supplier

Edit: I could see Honda outperforming the Renault P/U on a regular basis as early as next year if they make the commitment. Losing McLaren as a client may have refocused the company on getting better.
Last edited by Mort Canard on Mon May 28, 2018 1:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
Mission WinLater

pokerman
Posts: 36627
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Honda Redbull

Post by pokerman »

I can't see Honda catching up but then again will Renault either, at least Honda seem to be on top of their reliability issues and a works deal is always preferable if you don't have the best engine anyway.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 96 (1st)
Pole Positions: 98 (1st)
Podiums: 166 (1st)


PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion

sandman1347
Posts: 6977
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm

Re: Honda Redbull

Post by sandman1347 »

The real play here is for Red Bull to focus on the 2021 regulations change. That will be their opportunity to get back to the front of the pack. Throwing everything at trying to catch Mercedes and Ferrari these next two years is a lower-odds play IMO. Partnering with Honda early and building that chemistry while helping them to develop that engine is the best way to go. The 2021 engine will be simpler and without the MGU-H I think Honda will have a much easier time (especially if they get a head start on it). This has been the way that teams come to dominate F1 for the last decade or so. In 2009, Red Bull took advantage of the new rules to get the drop on Ferrari and McLaren and they can do the same thing to Ferrari and Mercedes in 2021. Hell, Mercedes only surged to the top of F1 because they focused on the 2014 rules changes early and threw all kinds of resources at developing their PU.

User avatar
UnlikeUday
Posts: 8940
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:53 pm
Location: Mumbai, India

Re: Honda Redbull

Post by UnlikeUday »

I'm wondering if Honda will face the same issue with Red Bull as they did with McLaren? Tight packaging! Isn't this the reason why Red Bull suffer most of the issues when compared to other Renault driven cars.
Feel The Fourth

hotbmw
Posts: 201
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2010 6:49 pm

Re: Honda Redbull

Post by hotbmw »

sandman1347 wrote:The real play here is for Red Bull to focus on the 2021 regulations change. That will be their opportunity to get back to the front of the pack. Throwing everything at trying to catch Mercedes and Ferrari these next two years is a lower-odds play IMO. Partnering with Honda early and building that chemistry while helping them to develop that engine is the best way to go. The 2021 engine will be simpler and without the MGU-H I think Honda will have a much easier time (especially if they get a head start on it). This has been the way that teams come to dominate F1 for the last decade or so. In 2009, Red Bull took advantage of the new rules to get the drop on Ferrari and McLaren and they can do the same thing to Ferrari and Mercedes in 2021. Hell, Mercedes only surged to the top of F1 because they focused on the 2014 rules changes early and threw all kinds of resources at developing their PU.
This is my gut feeling also.

Why would Ricciardo re-sign with redbull then? if they want him he will sign for ferrari or mercedes

User avatar
minchy
Posts: 5307
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:59 pm

Re: Honda Redbull

Post by minchy »

My gut instinct as to whether redbull will change to Honda is simply if they want to keep Ricciado or not. For a top driver who is potentially in demand for more than one top team, it'll have to be a pretty Steller pitch by redbull and Honda to keep him there.

But then again, the pitch worked on Alonso, who was willing to help them develop until he bored 3 years later! (but it was also Honda that helped him to almost win the indy 500 until his engine gave out, even though it was Honda power that won last year anyway)
There is no theory of evolution, just a list of animals that Chuck Norris allows to live.

Zoue
Posts: 25158
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am

Re: Honda Redbull

Post by Zoue »

^I don’t think drivers factor into the decision

User avatar
minchy
Posts: 5307
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:59 pm

Re: Honda Redbull

Post by minchy »

Zoue wrote:^I don’t think drivers factor into the decision
I'd say that all depends if drivers are two-a-penny or an expensive commodity? Because you can almost guarantee that the engine supplier will be one of the drivers deciding factors if they have a choice of who to sign with (especially if it is a Honda engine).

I could be very wrong, but if you have a choice of a Ferrari, Mercedes, Redbull Renault or Redbull Honda, which do would you pick? No matter how much money Honda throw at a team, if the engine isn't there, it doesn't matter what the car design is like or who the drivers are.....they just won't win.
There is no theory of evolution, just a list of animals that Chuck Norris allows to live.

User avatar
Lojik
Posts: 1443
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:58 pm
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Honda Redbull

Post by Lojik »

I wonder if a Honda RBR partnership is a good fit. RBR have been and continue to be loudly critical of Renault, despite all the success they have enjoyed, and I,m not sure that Honda as a company work well under such critical scrutiny.

hotbmw
Posts: 201
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2010 6:49 pm

Re: Honda Redbull

Post by hotbmw »

Isnt the renault engine off the table?

There is only a honda engine for redbull in 2019 and 2020 right?

User avatar
Jezza13
Posts: 2467
Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 10:02 am
Location: Far side of Koozebane

Re: Honda Redbull

Post by Jezza13 »

hotbmw wrote:Isnt the renault engine off the table?

There is only a honda engine for redbull in 2019 and 2020 right?
Well I thought that to originally but apparently not.

Renault are prepared to supply RB with engines next year and beyond

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/ ... l-deadline
Great Quotes of the 20th Century

"You think I know f**k all.... I know f**k nothing" - Anonymous Maltese construction worker's response to being told he doesn't know how to do his job.

hotbmw
Posts: 201
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2010 6:49 pm

Re: Honda Redbull

Post by hotbmw »

Interesting. Article says redbull must decide if they will use a renault engine for 2019 by end of may.

User avatar
Mod Titanium
Posts: 504
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:04 am

Re: [merged] Red Bull & Honda talk over 2019 deal

Post by Mod Titanium »

Merged redbull & honda threads
- Mod Team

pokerman
Posts: 36627
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Honda Redbull

Post by pokerman »

UnlikeUday wrote:I'm wondering if Honda will face the same issue with Red Bull as they did with McLaren? Tight packaging! Isn't this the reason why Red Bull suffer most of the issues when compared to other Renault driven cars.
Yeah I heard it being said that Red Bull would choose not to constrain Honda like McLaren did.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 96 (1st)
Pole Positions: 98 (1st)
Podiums: 166 (1st)


PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion

pokerman
Posts: 36627
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Honda Redbull

Post by pokerman »

hotbmw wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:The real play here is for Red Bull to focus on the 2021 regulations change. That will be their opportunity to get back to the front of the pack. Throwing everything at trying to catch Mercedes and Ferrari these next two years is a lower-odds play IMO. Partnering with Honda early and building that chemistry while helping them to develop that engine is the best way to go. The 2021 engine will be simpler and without the MGU-H I think Honda will have a much easier time (especially if they get a head start on it). This has been the way that teams come to dominate F1 for the last decade or so. In 2009, Red Bull took advantage of the new rules to get the drop on Ferrari and McLaren and they can do the same thing to Ferrari and Mercedes in 2021. Hell, Mercedes only surged to the top of F1 because they focused on the 2014 rules changes early and threw all kinds of resources at developing their PU.
This is my gut feeling also.

Why would Ricciardo re-sign with redbull then? if they want him he will sign for ferrari or mercedes
I'm not sure those seats are going to be open for him?
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 96 (1st)
Pole Positions: 98 (1st)
Podiums: 166 (1st)


PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion

pokerman
Posts: 36627
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Honda Redbull

Post by pokerman »

minchy wrote:My gut instinct as to whether redbull will change to Honda is simply if they want to keep Ricciado or not. For a top driver who is potentially in demand for more than one top team, it'll have to be a pretty Steller pitch by redbull and Honda to keep him there.

But then again, the pitch worked on Alonso, who was willing to help them develop until he bored 3 years later! (but it was also Honda that helped him to almost win the indy 500 until his engine gave out, even though it was Honda power that won last year anyway)
Alonso took a punt that Honda would be the best whereas Ricciardo knows they are not the best, what might tempt Ricciardo is the wages that Honda might pay him, taking this into account with other things obviously Ricciardo has to wait to see which engine Red Bull are going to have.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 96 (1st)
Pole Positions: 98 (1st)
Podiums: 166 (1st)


PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion

pokerman
Posts: 36627
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Honda Redbull

Post by pokerman »

hotbmw wrote:Interesting. Article says redbull must decide if they will use a renault engine for 2019 by end of may.
I heard Horner say they had another month to decide so that would make it the end of June.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 96 (1st)
Pole Positions: 98 (1st)
Podiums: 166 (1st)


PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion

User avatar
moby
Posts: 8072
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:22 pm

Re: Honda Redbull

Post by moby »

pokerman wrote:
minchy wrote:My gut instinct as to whether redbull will change to Honda is simply if they want to keep Ricciado or not. For a top driver who is potentially in demand for more than one top team, it'll have to be a pretty Steller pitch by redbull and Honda to keep him there.

But then again, the pitch worked on Alonso, who was willing to help them develop until he bored 3 years later! (but it was also Honda that helped him to almost win the indy 500 until his engine gave out, even though it was Honda power that won last year anyway)
Alonso took a punt that Honda would be the best whereas Ricciardo knows they are not the best, what might tempt Ricciardo is the wages that Honda might pay him, taking this into account with other things obviously Ricciardo has to wait to see which engine Red Bull are going to have.

Yip, there are 3 reasons to do things.
Enjoyment
Glory
Cash

Which is going to give Dan the best mix of 3?

He knows RedBull. Is he happy there? there is 'better the devil you know' v 'the grass is greener'
Red Bull always manage a few wins. Even at their worst they are never seen as below top 4
I suspect Red Bull will match or excede what anyone other than Ferrari could offer, then he needs to look hard at 1

hotbmw
Posts: 201
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2010 6:49 pm

Re: [merged] Red Bull & Honda talk over 2019 deal

Post by hotbmw »

If redbull keep the renault engine in 2019 i suspect Dan will re-sign with redbull.
Does Vettel have a contract till 2019 or 2020?

Post Reply