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Lotus49 wrote:

Rockie wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

Rockie wrote:

sandman1347 wrote: What circumstances are you referring to?

The ones you listed above.

I'm not following you here. The circumstances that I listed were particular to Hamilton during the window of time you were discussing. Alonso's circumstances were completely different so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

You making it seem it was a fluke but it was 4 consecutive years.

Not a fluke but just there's a lot of context missing.

2010-Cars pretty even but Lewis was marginally better but finished behind because of sharing with Button
2011-McLaren quicker but Alonso was better as Lewis has a complete one-off season crashing all the time
2012-McLaren quicker but more unreliable and Alonso only marginally better even with an ATG season and Lewis's bad luck
2013-Mercedes quicker on Saturday but Ferrari quicker on Sunday and Alonso better but Lewis was in a new team and getting used to new brakes


Lewis would've finished ahead in two of them(2010+2012) with better luck although funnily enough 2012 would imo be a bit undeserved as I felt Alonso edged it although Lewis's own season was very good. He also should've finished ahead in 2011 and that one is all on him though fair enough.

For me Alonso came out of that period 3-1 with Lewis with a bit of an asterisk as 2012 is a once in a generation season from Alonso and Lewis was actually damn close to him so it feels harsh as they were both great that year. I had it 2-2 with Seb.

So technically you could say Seb did better if you agreed with me but considering Lewis had a team switch in the middle and Seb had more of an advantage than Lewis had over Alonso as he had quicker more reliable cars and a weaker team mate, I think all things considered there wasn't much difference at all.

I think if you swapped them around you could get all manner of different scores as well though. Circumstances and conditions affect everything for a driver.

Rockie wrote:

pokerman wrote: Yeah it's amazing how some drivers get credit whilst others are merely lucky.

It's funny how you can say this with a straight face, after all you have said about Vettel and what you said below!

pokerman wrote: You know I blame Alonso for the situation he finds himself in but it's a fact that since 2009 Vettel has always had a faster car than him so saying Vettel is faster than Alonso based on that is nonsense.

But what's most ridiculous about what you said above is the fact Hamilton had a faster car than Alonso between '10 - '13 as well but didn't finish ahead of Alonso.
By this logic Hamilton is slower than Alonso right.

Rockie wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

Rockie wrote:

pokerman wrote: Yeah it's amazing how some drivers get credit whilst others are merely lucky.

It's funny how you can say this with a straight face, after all you have said about Vettel and what you said below!

pokerman wrote: You know I blame Alonso for the situation he finds himself in but it's a fact that since 2009 Vettel has always had a faster car than him so saying Vettel is faster than Alonso based on that is nonsense.

But what's most ridiculous about what you said above is the fact Hamilton had a faster car than Alonso between '10 - '13 as well but didn't finish ahead of Alonso.
By this logic Hamilton is slower than Alonso right.

Or unluckier, less efficient and gathering points, made more mistakes etc. Can be lots of reasons why one package beats another.

The premise was Vettel had a faster car that's why he beat Alonso, I just showed Hamilton had a faster car as well but didn't get the job done.

Rockie wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

Rockie wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

Rockie wrote: It's funny how you can say this with a straight face, after all you have said about Vettel and what you said below!

But what's most ridiculous about what you said above is the fact Hamilton had a faster car than Alonso between '10 - '13 as well but didn't finish ahead of Alonso.
By this logic Hamilton is slower than Alonso right.

Or unluckier, less efficient and gathering points, made more mistakes etc. Can be lots of reasons why one package beats another.

The premise was Vettel had a faster car that's why he beat Alonso, I just showed Hamilton had a faster car as well but didn't get the job done.

Just "faster car" is a bit ambiguous though. Sounds as if thy had the same advantage but obviously there are degrees of faster.

He had less of an advantage than Seb had,the McLaren's were closer to the Ferrari, whatever way people actually see it in any particular year I think we can all agree the gap between Red Bull and Ferrari was larger than the one between McLaren and Ferrari in general, no?

And that's ignoring the context like race operations/reliability and team dynamic as touched on so it's not that surprising.

Of all the leading teams Redbull had the worse reliability, so I don't get the argument.

They finished Vettel, Alonso, Webber, Hamilton and Button.

That's with Hamilton crashing 2 consecutive race weekends finishing 14pts behind Vettel.

Rockie wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

Rockie wrote:
Of all the leading teams Redbull had the worse reliability, so I don't get the argument.

They finished Vettel, Alonso, Webber, Hamilton and Button.

That's with Hamilton crashing 2 consecutive race weekends finishing 14pts behind Vettel.

2010 I assume? I've no idea off hand if that is true about reliability but I was talking about the period in general (09-13).

On 2010 I think the RB6 was one of the best cars in recent history but Seb was maybe a touch green to get the best out of it on a consistent basis and had a few scrapes himself did he not?

I think all the top guys made errors that year but on out and out car performance I think the RB was pretty dominant while the Ferrari and McLaren swapped 2nd and 3rd most weekends and were pretty tight.

Alonso finished like that because when the Ferrari was good he'd be the one to profit 99% of the time as the No.1 at Ferrari while both the RB's and McLaren's had to share more often when their car was the star, I think the order you posted highlights that pretty well.

It's why both Mercedes and Ferrari are perfectly happy with their current arrangements as well. It just works better.

In 2010 Hamilton had fewer errors than both Alonso and Vettel. Up until the two DNFs towards the end of the year, he hadn't put a wheel wrong while Alonso and Vettel both had a comedy of errors that year.

Oh it had nothing to do with Redbull's reliability?

Outside of Turkey and Spa or the puncture on lap one at Silverstone what was the comedy of errors for Vettel?

Rockie wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

Rockie wrote:

pokerman wrote: Yeah it's amazing how some drivers get credit whilst others are merely lucky.

It's funny how you can say this with a straight face, after all you have said about Vettel and what you said below!

pokerman wrote: You know I blame Alonso for the situation he finds himself in but it's a fact that since 2009 Vettel has always had a faster car than him so saying Vettel is faster than Alonso based on that is nonsense.

But what's most ridiculous about what you said above is the fact Hamilton had a faster car than Alonso between '10 - '13 as well but didn't finish ahead of Alonso.
By this logic Hamilton is slower than Alonso right.

Or unluckier, less efficient and gathering points, made more mistakes etc. Can be lots of reasons why one package beats another.

The premise was Vettel had a faster car that's why he beat Alonso, I just showed Hamilton had a faster car as well but didn't get the job done.

Rockie wrote: Coming from the guy who said he does not want the fastest car, he just wants to be 2 tenths closer to the faster car and he will do the rest.

I still can't stop laughing at folks who drink the Alonso kool aid, now he wants the fastest car like everyone else.

Let this sink in a bit the last time Alonso won a WDC, Kimi had not won won a WDC then.

He and people who believe he's quicker than Vettel live in a universe of alternate facts, in a straight pole shootout he' not getting anywhere near him.

Rockie wrote:Excuses is all read above, it's fun to read though yall keep it up, in this same period Button and Raikkonen as well beat Hamilton not just Alonso.

Till date Alonso has not finished ahead of Vettel not even in the worst year of his career so far 2014.

Rockie wrote:Excuses is all read above, it's fun to read though yall keep it up, in this same period Button and Raikkonen as well beat Hamilton not just Alonso.

Till date Alonso has not finished ahead of Vettel not even in the worst year of his career so far 2014.

pokerman wrote:

Rockie wrote:Excuses is all read above, it's fun to read though yall keep it up, in this same period Button and Raikkonen as well beat Hamilton not just Alonso.

Till date Alonso has not finished ahead of Vettel not even in the worst year of his career so far 2014.

He still had a much better car than Alonso and Alonso nearly beat him, Kimi in the other Ferrari finished 12th in the WDC.

mikeyg123 wrote:

Rockie wrote:Excuses is all read above, it's fun to read though yall keep it up, in this same period Button and Raikkonen as well beat Hamilton not just Alonso.

Till date Alonso has not finished ahead of Vettel not even in the worst year of his career so far 2014.

Yes he has.

But anyway according to you it's impossible to beat someone in a better car so it's irrelevent

Rockie wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Rockie wrote:Excuses is all read above, it's fun to read though yall keep it up, in this same period Button and Raikkonen as well beat Hamilton not just Alonso.

Till date Alonso has not finished ahead of Vettel not even in the worst year of his career so far 2014.

He still had a much better car than Alonso and Alonso nearly beat him, Kimi in the other Ferrari finished 12th in the WDC.

Vettel beat Kimi by a higher margin in '15 so I don't get your point.

jrwb6e wrote:

Rockie wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Rockie wrote:Excuses is all read above, it's fun to read though yall keep it up, in this same period Button and Raikkonen as well beat Hamilton not just Alonso.

Till date Alonso has not finished ahead of Vettel not even in the worst year of his career so far 2014.

He still had a much better car than Alonso and Alonso nearly beat him, Kimi in the other Ferrari finished 12th in the WDC.

Vettel beat Kimi by a higher margin in '15 so I don't get your point.

I guess you failed something called ratios in school.

Rockie wrote:

jrwb6e wrote:

Rockie wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Rockie wrote:Excuses is all read above, it's fun to read though yall keep it up, in this same period Button and Raikkonen as well beat Hamilton not just Alonso.

Till date Alonso has not finished ahead of Vettel not even in the worst year of his career so far 2014.

He still had a much better car than Alonso and Alonso nearly beat him, Kimi in the other Ferrari finished 12th in the WDC.

Vettel beat Kimi by a higher margin in '15 so I don't get your point.

I guess you failed something called ratios in school.

In this case it's percentages that will be used not ratios, but nice try.

Rockie wrote:Vettel beat Kimi by a higher margin in '15 so I don't get your point.

Mercedes-Benz wrote:My understanding watching F1 for over the years is the difference between the best and even worst driver is not much. Little little things make a huge difference in F1, tyres, suspension, setup etc .. From myy observation. Vettel is better than Alonso.

Vettel is faster in qualifying.
Vettel is faster in wets.
Vettel is on par with Alonso in race but Alonso is more intelligent and makes less mistakes so he probably has little edge over him.
On clean track though Vettel is in a league of his own.
Alonso has better starts.

Vettel is also a very good team player and very honest. Even if he does not win title in Ferrari. I think Ferrari will have more respect for him than Alonso.

Exediron wrote:

Mercedes-Benz wrote:My understanding watching F1 for over the years is the difference between the best and even worst driver is not much. Little little things make a huge difference in F1, tyres, suspension, setup etc .. From myy observation. Vettel is better than Alonso.

Vettel is faster in qualifying.
Vettel is faster in wets.
Vettel is on par with Alonso in race but Alonso is more intelligent and makes less mistakes so he probably has little edge over him.
On clean track though Vettel is in a league of his own.
Alonso has better starts.

Vettel is also a very good team player and very honest. Even if he does not win title in Ferrari. I think Ferrari will have more respect for him than Alonso.

... Vettel is a team player? Seriously?

As for Vettel being faster in qualifying, how do you figure that? They've never been teammates, and they've rarely if ever had equal cars. The comparison relative to Kimi - admittedly a questionable one due to how little the 2014 car suited him - suggests that Vettel is not faster in qualifying. Nothing aside from his raw numbers suggests that he is.

My own assessment would be:

Alonso is a slight amount faster on pure pace
Alonso is better at gaining positions off the start
Alonso has noticeably superior racecraft
Alonso is more consistent over a season, with hardly any races where he's off the pace

Vettel is better (than anyone) at opening a 2+ second gap before the DRS is activated
Vettel is better at keeping a positive atmosphere in the team
Vettel is peakier than Alonso, but may very well be faster at his peak
Vettel is a little bit faster in the wet

Both are very good at tyre management
Both are ultimately selfish, like all top drivers

Invade wrote:

Exediron wrote:My own assessment would be:

Alonso is a slight amount faster on pure pace
Alonso is better at gaining positions off the start
Alonso has noticeably superior racecraft
Alonso is more consistent over a season, with hardly any races where he's off the pace

Vettel is better (than anyone) at opening a 2+ second gap before the DRS is activated
Vettel is better at keeping a positive atmosphere in the team
Vettel is peakier than Alonso, but may very well be faster at his peak
Vettel is a little bit faster in the wet

Both are very good at tyre management
Both are ultimately selfish, like all top drivers

Hey, this is a really interesting breakdown.

Any chance you could do this for the Hamilton match-ups against those guys? I'd also be curious about anyone else you may fancy comparing, if anyone. Maybe past greats?

Rockie wrote:

jrwb6e wrote:

Rockie wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Rockie wrote:Excuses is all read above, it's fun to read though yall keep it up, in this same period Button and Raikkonen as well beat Hamilton not just Alonso.

Till date Alonso has not finished ahead of Vettel not even in the worst year of his career so far 2014.

He still had a much better car than Alonso and Alonso nearly beat him, Kimi in the other Ferrari finished 12th in the WDC.

Vettel beat Kimi by a higher margin in '15 so I don't get your point.

I guess you failed something called ratios in school.

In this case it's percentages that will be used not ratios, but nice try.

Mercedes-Benz wrote:IMHO it is not possible to make comparison using teammates. Because there are many variables. Kimi vs Alonso in 2014. Ferrari themselves admitted they will have to build new car for Kimi. The gap is some races was some races were 0.8 to 1sec per lap. I cannot believe how Kimi took this BS honestly.

My understanding watching F1 for over the years is the difference between the best and even worst driver is not much. Little little things make a huge difference in F1, tyres, suspension, setup etc .. From myy observation. Vettel is better than Alonso.

Vettel is faster in qualifying.
Vettel is faster in wets.
Vettel is on par with Alonso in race but Alonso is more intelligent and makes less mistakes so he probably has little edge over him.
On clean track though Vettel is in a league of his own.
Alonso has better starts.

Vettel is also a very good team player and very honest. Even if he does not win title in Ferrari. I think Ferrari will have more respect for him than Alonso.

Exediron wrote:

Mercedes-Benz wrote:My understanding watching F1 for over the years is the difference between the best and even worst driver is not much. Little little things make a huge difference in F1, tyres, suspension, setup etc .. From myy observation. Vettel is better than Alonso.

Vettel is faster in qualifying.
Vettel is faster in wets.
Vettel is on par with Alonso in race but Alonso is more intelligent and makes less mistakes so he probably has little edge over him.
On clean track though Vettel is in a league of his own.
Alonso has better starts.

Vettel is also a very good team player and very honest. Even if he does not win title in Ferrari. I think Ferrari will have more respect for him than Alonso.

... Vettel is a team player? Seriously?

As for Vettel being faster in qualifying, how do you figure that? They've never been teammates, and they've rarely if ever had equal cars. The comparison relative to Kimi - admittedly a questionable one due to how little the 2014 car suited him - suggests that Vettel is not faster in qualifying. Nothing aside from his raw numbers suggests that he is.

My own assessment would be:

Alonso is a slight amount faster on pure pace
Alonso is better at gaining positions off the start
Alonso has noticeably superior racecraft
Alonso is more consistent over a season, with hardly any races where he's off the pace

Vettel is better (than anyone) at opening a 2+ second gap before the DRS is activated
Vettel is better at keeping a positive atmosphere in the team
Vettel is peakier than Alonso, but may very well be faster at his peak
Vettel is a little bit faster in the wet

Both are very good at tyre management
Both are ultimately selfish, like all top drivers

Exediron wrote:

Mercedes-Benz wrote:My understanding watching F1 for over the years is the difference between the best and even worst driver is not much. Little little things make a huge difference in F1, tyres, suspension, setup etc .. From myy observation. Vettel is better than Alonso.

Vettel is faster in qualifying.
Vettel is faster in wets.
Vettel is on par with Alonso in race but Alonso is more intelligent and makes less mistakes so he probably has little edge over him.
On clean track though Vettel is in a league of his own.
Alonso has better starts.

Vettel is also a very good team player and very honest. Even if he does not win title in Ferrari. I think Ferrari will have more respect for him than Alonso.

... Vettel is a team player? Seriously?

As for Vettel being faster in qualifying, how do you figure that? They've never been teammates, and they've rarely if ever had equal cars. The comparison relative to Kimi - admittedly a questionable one due to how little the 2014 car suited him - suggests that Vettel is not faster in qualifying. Nothing aside from his raw numbers suggests that he is.

My own assessment would be:

Alonso is a slight amount faster on pure pace
Alonso is better at gaining positions off the start
Alonso has noticeably superior racecraft
Alonso is more consistent over a season, with hardly any races where he's off the pace

Vettel is better (than anyone) at opening a 2+ second gap before the DRS is activated
Vettel is better at keeping a positive atmosphere in the team
Vettel is peakier than Alonso, but may very well be faster at his peak
Vettel is a little bit faster in the wet

Both are very good at tyre management
Both are ultimately selfish, like all top drivers

Exediron wrote:

Rockie wrote:Vettel beat Kimi by a higher margin in '15 so I don't get your point.

This is flat-out false. In terms of point percentage, head-to-head, or average qualifying gap, Alonso beat Kimi by a larger margin in 2014 than Vettel did in 2015.

The only way in which Vettel beat him by a larger margin is pure points scored, which is a worthless metric to compare a season where the team scored a little over 200 points with a season where they scored over 400 points.

Covalent wrote:Kimi is probably as poor a yardstick as you can find TBF.

dompclarke wrote:

Covalent wrote:Kimi is probably as poor a yardstick as you can find TBF.

I'm sure I'd be a worse yardstick to be fair

Mercedes-Benz wrote:IMHO it is not possible to make comparison using teammates. Because there are many variables. Kimi vs Alonso in 2014. Ferrari themselves admitted they will have to build new car for Kimi. The gap is some races was some races were 0.8 to 1sec per lap. I cannot believe how Kimi took this BS honestly.

My understanding watching F1 for over the years is the difference between the best and even worst driver is not much. Little little things make a huge difference in F1, tyres, suspension, setup etc .. From myy observation. Vettel is better than Alonso.

Vettel is faster in qualifying.
Vettel is faster in wets.
Vettel is on par with Alonso in race but Alonso is more intelligent and makes less mistakes so he probably has little edge over him.
On clean track though Vettel is in a league of his own.
Alonso has better starts.

Vettel is also a very good team player and very honest. Even if he does not win title in Ferrari. I think Ferrari will have more respect for him than Alonso.

Rockie wrote:

Exediron wrote:

Rockie wrote:Vettel beat Kimi by a higher margin in '15 so I don't get your point.

This is flat-out false. In terms of point percentage, head-to-head, or average qualifying gap, Alonso beat Kimi by a larger margin in 2014 than Vettel did in 2015.

The only way in which Vettel beat him by a larger margin is pure points scored, which is a worthless metric to compare a season where the team scored a little over 200 points with a season where they scored over 400 points.

Points scored a worthless metric?

This is hilarious you do realise that the constructor points comes from both drivers in the races from their finishing positions?

pokerman wrote:

Mercedes-Benz wrote:IMHO it is not possible to make comparison using teammates. Because there are many variables. Kimi vs Alonso in 2014. Ferrari themselves admitted they will have to build new car for Kimi. The gap is some races was some races were 0.8 to 1sec per lap. I cannot believe how Kimi took this BS honestly.

My understanding watching F1 for over the years is the difference between the best and even worst driver is not much. Little little things make a huge difference in F1, tyres, suspension, setup etc .. From myy observation. Vettel is better than Alonso.

Vettel is faster in qualifying.
Vettel is faster in wets.
Vettel is on par with Alonso in race but Alonso is more intelligent and makes less mistakes so he probably has little edge over him.
On clean track though Vettel is in a league of his own.
Alonso has better starts.


Vettel is also a very good team player and very honest. Even if he does not win title in Ferrari. I think Ferrari will have more respect for him than Alonso.

Vettel being faster in qualifying is merely down to him having faster cars, Alonso beats his teammates quite comfortably in qualifying and has never been beat Like Vettel was in 2014.

Vettel is faster in the wet I guess is down to one wet race in 2008, otherwise I would say they are quite even.

On a clean track Vettel is in a league of his own, that would be true of a few drivers blessed with the fastest car, Alonso has not often had that luxury.

pokerman wrote:

Rockie wrote:

Exediron wrote:

Rockie wrote:Vettel beat Kimi by a higher margin in '15 so I don't get your point.

This is flat-out false. In terms of point percentage, head-to-head, or average qualifying gap, Alonso beat Kimi by a larger margin in 2014 than Vettel did in 2015.

The only way in which Vettel beat him by a larger margin is pure points scored, which is a worthless metric to compare a season where the team scored a little over 200 points with a season where they scored over 400 points.

Points scored a worthless metric?

This is hilarious you do realise that the constructor points comes from both drivers in the races from their finishing positions?

Kimi scored 3 times the amount of points in 2015 so he became 3 times a better driver against Vettel?

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:

Mercedes-Benz wrote:IMHO it is not possible to make comparison using teammates. Because there are many variables. Kimi vs Alonso in 2014. Ferrari themselves admitted they will have to build new car for Kimi. The gap is some races was some races were 0.8 to 1sec per lap. I cannot believe how Kimi took this BS honestly.

My understanding watching F1 for over the years is the difference between the best and even worst driver is not much. Little little things make a huge difference in F1, tyres, suspension, setup etc .. From myy observation. Vettel is better than Alonso.

Vettel is faster in qualifying.
Vettel is faster in wets.
Vettel is on par with Alonso in race but Alonso is more intelligent and makes less mistakes so he probably has little edge over him.
On clean track though Vettel is in a league of his own.
Alonso has better starts.

Vettel is also a very good team player and very honest. Even if he does not win title in Ferrari. I think Ferrari will have more respect for him than Alonso.

Ah, I see, you throw out imperfect evidence (teammate comparisons) in order to base your assessment on no evidence at all. Very convincing ....

Covalent wrote:

dompclarke wrote:

Covalent wrote:Kimi is probably as poor a yardstick as you can find TBF.

I'm sure I'd be a worse yardstick to be fair

Well, a yardstick's purpose is to be exactly the same length regardless of steering setup, tyre characteristics, time of day or lunar position. Kimi isn't, while you'd probably be consistently truly terrible each and every time

Rockie wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Mercedes-Benz wrote:IMHO it is not possible to make comparison using teammates. Because there are many variables. Kimi vs Alonso in 2014. Ferrari themselves admitted they will have to build new car for Kimi. The gap is some races was some races were 0.8 to 1sec per lap. I cannot believe how Kimi took this BS honestly.

My understanding watching F1 for over the years is the difference between the best and even worst driver is not much. Little little things make a huge difference in F1, tyres, suspension, setup etc .. From myy observation. Vettel is better than Alonso.

Vettel is faster in qualifying.
Vettel is faster in wets.
Vettel is on par with Alonso in race but Alonso is more intelligent and makes less mistakes so he probably has little edge over him.
On clean track though Vettel is in a league of his own.
Alonso has better starts.


Vettel is also a very good team player and very honest. Even if he does not win title in Ferrari. I think Ferrari will have more respect for him than Alonso.

Vettel being faster in qualifying is merely down to him having faster cars, Alonso beats his teammates quite comfortably in qualifying and has never been beat Like Vettel was in 2014.

Vettel is faster in the wet I guess is down to one wet race in 2008, otherwise I would say they are quite even.

On a clean track Vettel is in a league of his own, that would be true of a few drivers blessed with the fastest car, Alonso has not often had that luxury.

Even in the 2014 you are quoting which was his worst year he nearly beat Hamilton to pole at a wet Malaysia.

Vettel's '14, it's normal for people who want to debate false equivalency to take a tiny portion of a large sample and keep hammering on that.

It's like insisting 2011 is what Hamilton is about hence why he lagged behind Alonso till he got the dominant Mercedes the stat is there to prove this line of thought.

Rockie wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Rockie wrote:

Exediron wrote:

Rockie wrote:Vettel beat Kimi by a higher margin in '15 so I don't get your point.

This is flat-out false. In terms of point percentage, head-to-head, or average qualifying gap, Alonso beat Kimi by a larger margin in 2014 than Vettel did in 2015.

The only way in which Vettel beat him by a larger margin is pure points scored, which is a worthless metric to compare a season where the team scored a little over 200 points with a season where they scored over 400 points.

Points scored a worthless metric?

This is hilarious you do realise that the constructor points comes from both drivers in the races from their finishing positions?

Kimi scored 3 times the amount of points in 2015 so he became 3 times a better driver against Vettel?

Ok so the points he scored against Alonso is his default position because I don't get the point you are trying to prove.

Rockie wrote:

Exediron wrote:

Rockie wrote:Vettel beat Kimi by a higher margin in '15 so I don't get your point.

This is flat-out false. In terms of point percentage, head-to-head, or average qualifying gap, Alonso beat Kimi by a larger margin in 2014 than Vettel did in 2015.

The only way in which Vettel beat him by a larger margin is pure points scored, which is a worthless metric to compare a season where the team scored a little over 200 points with a season where they scored over 400 points.

Points scored a worthless metric?

This is hilarious you do realise that the constructor points comes from both drivers in the races from their finishing positions?

Exediron wrote:

Rockie wrote:

Exediron wrote:

Rockie wrote:Vettel beat Kimi by a higher margin in '15 so I don't get your point.

This is flat-out false. In terms of point percentage, head-to-head, or average qualifying gap, Alonso beat Kimi by a larger margin in 2014 than Vettel did in 2015.

The only way in which Vettel beat him by a larger margin is pure points scored, which is a worthless metric to compare a season where the team scored a little over 200 points with a season where they scored over 400 points.

Points scored a worthless metric?

This is hilarious you do realise that the constructor points comes from both drivers in the races from their finishing positions?

Is this supposed to be a joke? Or are you totally out of touch with the fact that a driver's ability to score points is wholly dependent on the car? Do you think Raikkonen suddenly started driving at a vastly higher level than Alonso from 2015 on, when he started outscoring him by 100+ points a season?

Points scored, with no context of the car, is a totally worthless metric. Raikkonen scored more points in 2015 than he did in 2014 because the car was better.

pokerman wrote:

Rockie wrote:
Ok so the points he scored against Alonso is his default position because I don't get the point you are trying to prove.

Maybe that the 2015 Ferrari was a much better car than the 2014 Ferrari, it is kind of obvious?