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Re: Alonso and Vettel
Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 1:40 am
by Lotus49
Pullrod wrote:Lotus49 wrote:Pullrod wrote:Lotus49 wrote:mikeyg123 wrote:Does anyone seriously think if Vettel's engine had blown up on the last lap at Abu Dhabi in 2010 and the last lap at Interlagos in 2012 he would be a worse driver because he only had 2 titles? Does anyone think it would make Alonso a better driver because he would have 4? Even though both drivers would have done nothing different in terms of performance.
This is what I can't get past and why I don't put as much weight into the stats in these type of sports as others do but it's subjective of course, people value different things but this is along the lines of what was first put to me in a similar conversation.
You can literally not need to change a single turn of Alonso's wheel, change a tenth of performance he showed across his career or anything like that and he'd have 2-3 more titles with a failure here or there or a DQ in 07 for Kīmi's illegal floor in Melbourne for example.
No extra brilliance from Alonso
No extra poor performance from his rivals
No better cars
No better team atmosphere
Nowt.
So it's hard to get excited about the pure stats when in a Sport like this they can be so heavily altered without changing a single driving input from Alonso himself. You get exited about the performances that are shown, surely? And those are there whether it's 2 or 4/5.
This isn't an Alonso only thing, you can add or takeway titles to lots of drivers without changing the level of performance they have shown in any way, you can even make Alonso have no titles, never mind the 2 he did get.
The stats are fluff, nice for the drivers themselves and fans of course to celebrate, it's the goal after all, but it's just not much use as a performance indicator when you can turn the stats on their head without changing any performance shown whatsoever from that driver in question.
A driver can have luck with a WDC car, but success needs to be nurtured and it is not done only through driving or engineering talent.
When Ferrari announced Vettel as their new driver, I said for Alonso that it was the beginning of the end for him and for Vettel, that
there is no way he will have worse stats(wins/poles) than Alonso during his Ferrari years.
You can call it luck if you want, but I don't think it is. With Vettel all you hear is Ferrari, and with Alonso, all you hear is Alonso and how life is cruel.
I wouldn't call it luck exactly but just better circumstances. One quick thing is Maranello itsellf.
Alonso's time had wind tunnel issues and infrastructure deficiencies to it's main rivals and a boss still in the mindset they had everything they need.
Sergio came in and brought class leading AVL test benches, hundreds of millions spent on new infrastructure and buildimgs housing state of the art sims and full chassis dyno's to the point it's as good as anything RB or Mercedes have. That's a huge advantage in the ability to produce better cars that Alonso didn't have and has been evidenced in their last few cars.
You could argue he should've done more to get Luca to open the wallet and get their facilities to their rivals standards but without knowing what he did in the first place it's a bit of an empty criticism.
It's just the way it falls and seemingly it falls badly for Alonso in multiple ways. Another quick one is the state of the PU Alonso left. He left at the end of summer and at that point the Ferrari PU was consensus worse because it had the same deficiencies as Renault but with a worse ERS system. And we had a token system locking that design in for the most part. Pretty hopeless looking situation.
Within 4 months of his leaving Allison found the loophole that killed the token system,Mahle brought them TJI which turned around their ICE, Cornebois brought the oil burn knowledge from Mercedes and Renault somehow managed to go backwards.
You just can't account for that level of things falling against you and for someone else and it's got nothing to do with the kumbaya rubbish we've spoke of before. Seb didn't suddenly turn into an expletive during the winter 2013/14, Mercedes simply brought things RB-Renault didn't.
Luck or just circumstances, call it what you want but Alonso hasn't had it since his first Renault stint when he had the engineers coming up with the tricks and a bespoke fuel and tyre supplier giving him priority. And guess what happened, he won. Give him it again and he'll do the same I'm sure.
Again, you are talking about engineering in isolation.
The problem with Alonso is that he wants to be a driver and the team manager.
I have heard disrespectulf radio communications between Alonso and his Ferrari engineers, something Vettel will not do. Sebastian is JUST a driver.
Alonso had a shot(albeit small) to drive for a Top team again and what was his genius move? He decided to skip Monaco GP for the Indy 500 to show he is bigger than Hamilton/Vettel/F1 alienating people(Lauda/Wolff/Horner/Ecclestone/F1 drivers) in the process. We know drivers are egomaniac but he is a special one and I strongly believe his lack of success can not be attributed to bad luck.
Some drivers are better fit to certain teams than others and engineers/rule makers/Big wigs will go the extra mile just to make them fast again.
I really don't think going to Indy cost him anything at all. Mercedes and Ferrari are happy with their drivers so there was just no need to change. Even if they thought he was better it's hardly likely to be by enough to warrant a switch like that at his age and putting him beside one of them is a non starter.
I do think some drivers are a better fit sure but that's not going to translate to your engineers suddenly coming up with lean burn,come on. You like to attribute most of the cars success in some way to the driver but I really don't see it that way.
Alonso is demanding but so are most top drivers and he's been dealt rougher hands than most top drivers when it comes to machinery so he's bound to be more vocal about it, just think when was the last time a part in Alonso's cars came under any form of scrutiny? That's usually a sign of the engineering group coming into their own and we just don't hear it about his cars since funnily enough he was winning.
Seb's had what, 3 things banned in the last 12 months? More parts under scrutiny now. That's an engineering group ready to win.
Re: Alonso and Vettel
Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 1:45 am
by Lotus49
Rockie wrote:Lotus49 wrote:
What's this supposed to support or disprove? And where's the Seb-Mercedes source?
The fact you think Alonso left Ferrari and he was not shown the door, he had no hand negotiating with Mclaren and it was Honda that wanted him.
Nothing in that article goes against James Allison or Arrivabenne's account (Not mine). It even mentioned "mutual consent" anyway. Why would Allison claim he tried to change Alonso's mind then? Why offer a contract extension until 2019?
And I'm still waiting on the Seb-Mercedes source.
Re: Alonso and Vettel
Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 1:46 am
by Exediron
Rockie wrote:I put a lot of weight on success in any field no one achieves success by being lucky, where preparation meets opportunity people see it as luck.
That's total BS. Vast numbers of people achieve success by being lucky - maybe even most people. The myth that success is always the product of hard work is a dangerous tool used to attack people who are unsuccessful for any reason.
If Alonso had switched to McLaren and the Honda engine really was as dominant as Ron Dennis made it sound, would that mean that it was suddenly all down to Alonso's preparation? Or would he have got lucky, seeing as how he had no way of knowing what the engine would be like (clearly)?
Re: Alonso and Vettel
Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 2:42 am
by Rockie
Exediron wrote:Rockie wrote:I put a lot of weight on success in any field no one achieves success by being lucky, where preparation meets opportunity people see it as luck.
That's total BS. Vast numbers of people achieve success by being lucky - maybe even most people. The myth that success is always the product of hard work is a dangerous tool used to attack people who are unsuccessful for any reason.
If Alonso had switched to McLaren and the Honda engine really was as dominant as Ron Dennis made it sound, would that mean that it was suddenly all down to Alonso's preparation? Or would he have got lucky, seeing as how he had no way of knowing what the engine would be like (clearly)?
It's no BS in life doing anything requires preparation, I'm sure before you write an exam you study, before you become become a race car driver you practice and train then enter races and when a scout spots you, you get signed.
Success in your chosen field is always a result of hardwork, level of success is relative but hardwork will always bring you success, except you are not working smart.
In all you have said you missed the where preparation meets opportunity, as of '13 everyone knew Mercedes had been working on the engine for a while.
Every man and their dog knew that the only time Honda was successful in F1 was when with Senna and Prost and when everyone caught up they regressed and had just a solitary win with Button over a decade later, so how they were going to deliver a world beating engine was beyond me seeing how bad Renault and Ferrari were struggling with the engine.
Re: Alonso and Vettel
Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 2:46 am
by Rockie
Lotus49 wrote:Rockie wrote:Lotus49 wrote:
What's this supposed to support or disprove? And where's the Seb-Mercedes source?
The fact you think Alonso left Ferrari and he was not shown the door, he had no hand negotiating with Mclaren and it was Honda that wanted him.
Nothing in that article goes against James Allison or Arrivabenne's account (Not mine). It even mentioned "mutual consent" anyway. Why would Allison claim he tried to change Alonso's mind then? Why offer a contract extension until 2019?
And I'm still waiting on the Seb-Mercedes source.
Mutual consent is another way of saying you are fired and affected party keeps their dignity.
Ferrari wasn't going to continue with Alonso even if he decided he wanted to stay.
On the Seb-Mercedes I remembered it being said and cant find stories going back that far but will look for it.
Re: Alonso and Vettel
Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 3:36 am
by Lotus49
Rockie wrote:Lotus49 wrote:Rockie wrote:Lotus49 wrote:
What's this supposed to support or disprove? And where's the Seb-Mercedes source?
The fact you think Alonso left Ferrari and he was not shown the door, he had no hand negotiating with Mclaren and it was Honda that wanted him.
Nothing in that article goes against James Allison or Arrivabenne's account (Not mine). It even mentioned "mutual consent" anyway. Why would Allison claim he tried to change Alonso's mind then? Why offer a contract extension until 2019?
And I'm still waiting on the Seb-Mercedes source.
Mutual consent is another way of saying you are fired and affected party keeps their dignity.
Ferrari wasn't going to continue with Alonso even if he decided he wanted to stay.
On the Seb-Mercedes I remembered it being said and cant find stories going back that far but will look for it.
Why offer him a contract extension and why's James Allison claiming he tried to change his mind?
The entire press pack chased him around for a year asking if he regretted leaving and this myth of a firing still persists. It's bizarre. There's zero evidence of it and buckets of it that he simply lost faith and decided to gamble on McHonda.
Until shown something otherwise I'm more than happy to go with the story backed up by Alonso,Arrivabene,Allison,Marko and the entire paddock press rubbing his nose in it since.
Re: Alonso and Vettel
Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 3:47 am
by Lotus49
Rockie wrote:Exediron wrote:Rockie wrote:I put a lot of weight on success in any field no one achieves success by being lucky, where preparation meets opportunity people see it as luck.
That's total BS. Vast numbers of people achieve success by being lucky - maybe even most people. The myth that success is always the product of hard work is a dangerous tool used to attack people who are unsuccessful for any reason.
If Alonso had switched to McLaren and the Honda engine really was as dominant as Ron Dennis made it sound, would that mean that it was suddenly all down to Alonso's preparation? Or would he have got lucky, seeing as how he had no way of knowing what the engine would be like (clearly)?
It's no BS in life doing anything requires preparation, I'm sure before you write an exam you study, before you become become a race car driver you practice and train then enter races and when a scout spots you, you get signed.
Success in your chosen field is always a result of hardwork, level of success is relative but hardwork will always bring you success, except you are not working smart.
In all you have said you missed the where preparation meets opportunity, as of '13 everyone knew Mercedes had been working on the engine for a while.
Every man and their dog knew that the only time Honda was successful in F1 was when with Senna and Prost and when everyone caught up they regressed and had just a solitary win with Button over a decade later, so how they were going to deliver a world beating engine was beyond me seeing how bad Renault and Ferrari were struggling with the engine.
People underestimated the complexity of the engine and how much infrastructure Honda needed to put in place over here in MK. They thought having a year on the sidelines was an advantage back then and at that time (Summer 2014) no-one knew about the lean burn and thought Mercedes strength came from the split turbo.
Honda had a split turbo in their design and with those two things and a lot of hype about how impressive Sakura was there was a lot of traction about Honda. Bump any thread from that time on here or on AS and see where people were predicting the McHonda partnership, nearly all of them had them above Ferrari for example, it's pure hindsight talking like it was obvious they would fail generally speaking. You yourself may well have called it but considering the driver I'm guessing you'd have called it the same thing regardless tbh.
Sakura,the year out to watch what works and doesn't, the split turbo and the others designs being largely locked in under a token system had lots of people picking Honda to challenge Mercedes first,not just Alonso.
Re: Alonso and Vettel
Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 4:22 am
by Rockie
Lotus49 wrote:
Why offer him a contract extension and why's James Allison claiming he tried to change his mind?
The entire press pack chased him around for a year asking if he regretted leaving and this myth of a firing still persists. It's bizarre. There's zero evidence of it and buckets of it that he simply lost faith and decided to gamble on McHonda.
Until shown something otherwise I'm more than happy to go with the story backed up by Alonso,Arrivabene,Allison,Marko and the entire paddock press rubbing his nose in it since.
From SkyF1 note the word "terminated"
"Alonso's Ferrari deal was supposed to run until the end of 2016 but with relations between the 33-year-old and the team's new management hierarchy headed by Marco Mattiacci breaking down, Sky F1 understands that the contract was terminated by mutual consent on Thursday night."
Arrivabene wasn't part of the team when it happened and was appointed Nov '14. How will Marko know what happened at Ferrari, Allison's own was a personal opinion and not a Ferrari position.
And we have known teams rep to be economical with truth, when you leave a team amicably you will not take a dig at them which Alonso does at every opportunity, also we see Vettel going to the Redbull garage and everyone is happy and they joke around.
I have never seen Alonso do or maybe just not been very observant.
Re: Alonso and Vettel
Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 5:40 am
by Zoue
Rockie wrote:Lotus49 wrote:
Why offer him a contract extension and why's James Allison claiming he tried to change his mind?
The entire press pack chased him around for a year asking if he regretted leaving and this myth of a firing still persists. It's bizarre. There's zero evidence of it and buckets of it that he simply lost faith and decided to gamble on McHonda.
Until shown something otherwise I'm more than happy to go with the story backed up by Alonso,Arrivabene,Allison,Marko and the entire paddock press rubbing his nose in it since.
From SkyF1 note the word "terminated"
"Alonso's Ferrari deal was supposed to run until the end of 2016 but with relations between the 33-year-old and the team's new management hierarchy headed by Marco Mattiacci breaking down, Sky F1 understands that the contract was terminated by mutual consent on Thursday night."
Arrivabene wasn't part of the team when it happened and was appointed Nov '14. How will Marko know what happened at Ferrari, Allison's own was a personal opinion and not a Ferrari position.
And we have known teams rep to be economical with truth, when you leave a team amicably you will not take a dig at them which Alonso does at every opportunity, also we see Vettel going to the Redbull garage and everyone is happy and they joke around.
I have never seen Alonso do or maybe just not been very observant.
The contract had to be terminated. Alonso left early. The wording is "terminated by mutual consent." In other words, no party was going to sue the other. You can't infer motivation from that wording
Re: Alonso and Vettel
Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 5:43 am
by mikeyg123
Rockie wrote:Lotus49 wrote:
Why offer him a contract extension and why's James Allison claiming he tried to change his mind?
The entire press pack chased him around for a year asking if he regretted leaving and this myth of a firing still persists. It's bizarre. There's zero evidence of it and buckets of it that he simply lost faith and decided to gamble on McHonda.
Until shown something otherwise I'm more than happy to go with the story backed up by Alonso,Arrivabene,Allison,Marko and the entire paddock press rubbing his nose in it since.
From SkyF1 note the word "terminated"
"Alonso's Ferrari deal was supposed to run until the end of 2016 but with relations between the 33-year-old and the team's new management hierarchy headed by Marco Mattiacci breaking down, Sky F1 understands that the contract was terminated by mutual consent on Thursday night."
Arrivabene wasn't part of the team when it happened and was appointed Nov '14. How will Marko know what happened at Ferrari, Allison's own was a personal opinion and not a Ferrari position.
And we have known teams rep to be economical with truth, when you leave a team amicably you will not take a dig at them which Alonso does at every opportunity, also we see Vettel going to the Redbull garage and everyone is happy and they joke around.
I have never seen Alonso do or maybe just not been very observant.
Obviously the contract needed to be terminated. Doesn't mean he was fired though. If he was fired where is the news of his payout? If you want to keep on the "Alonso was fired" line then I would suggest you'd find some evidence or at least a respected figure who agrees with you.
And you've never seen what? Alonso have a good relationship with a previous team? Two of his four former teams have re-hired him!
Re: Alonso and Vettel
Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 5:46 am
by tootsie323
The idea that Alonso can drag a 'bad' car into a good position appears to be supported by those behind the scenes, going on
this article from the BBC concerning his effort in Baku after his car had been hit on the first lap.
Re: Alonso and Vettel
Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 5:52 am
by Zoue
mikeyg123 wrote:Rockie wrote:Lotus49 wrote:
Why offer him a contract extension and why's James Allison claiming he tried to change his mind?
The entire press pack chased him around for a year asking if he regretted leaving and this myth of a firing still persists. It's bizarre. There's zero evidence of it and buckets of it that he simply lost faith and decided to gamble on McHonda.
Until shown something otherwise I'm more than happy to go with the story backed up by Alonso,Arrivabene,Allison,Marko and the entire paddock press rubbing his nose in it since.
From SkyF1 note the word "terminated"
"Alonso's Ferrari deal was supposed to run until the end of 2016 but with relations between the 33-year-old and the team's new management hierarchy headed by Marco Mattiacci breaking down, Sky F1 understands that the contract was terminated by mutual consent on Thursday night."
Arrivabene wasn't part of the team when it happened and was appointed Nov '14. How will Marko know what happened at Ferrari, Allison's own was a personal opinion and not a Ferrari position.
And we have known teams rep to be economical with truth, when you leave a team amicably you will not take a dig at them which Alonso does at every opportunity, also we see Vettel going to the Redbull garage and everyone is happy and they joke around.
I have never seen Alonso do or maybe just not been very observant.
Obviously the contract needed to be terminated. Doesn't mean he was fired though. If he was fired where is the news of his payout? If you want to keep on the "Alonso was fired" line then I would suggest you'd find some evidence or at least a respected figure who agrees with you.
And you've never seen what? Alonso have a good relationship with a previous team? Two of his four former teams have re-hired him!
Well, while I agree with you 100% about the contract situation, I don't think it's radical to talk about Alonso's destructive relationships. He did famously complain about how Renault were trying to sabotage him, or words to that effect, and I don't think anyone can pretend that he left McLaren on good terms back in 2007. I think it's fairly true to say he's at least partially burned bridges at Ferrari, too.
Alonso's a terrific driver, to my mind unquestionably the best driver out there. But he's not exactly the poster boy for good relations
Re: Alonso and Vettel
Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 6:06 am
by Pullrod
mikeyg123 wrote:Rockie wrote:Lotus49 wrote:
Why offer him a contract extension and why's James Allison claiming he tried to change his mind?
The entire press pack chased him around for a year asking if he regretted leaving and this myth of a firing still persists. It's bizarre. There's zero evidence of it and buckets of it that he simply lost faith and decided to gamble on McHonda.
Until shown something otherwise I'm more than happy to go with the story backed up by Alonso,Arrivabene,Allison,Marko and the entire paddock press rubbing his nose in it since.
From SkyF1 note the word "terminated"
"Alonso's Ferrari deal was supposed to run until the end of 2016 but with relations between the 33-year-old and the team's new management hierarchy headed by Marco Mattiacci breaking down, Sky F1 understands that the contract was terminated by mutual consent on Thursday night."
Arrivabene wasn't part of the team when it happened and was appointed Nov '14. How will Marko know what happened at Ferrari, Allison's own was a personal opinion and not a Ferrari position.
And we have known teams rep to be economical with truth, when you leave a team amicably you will not take a dig at them which Alonso does at every opportunity, also we see Vettel going to the Redbull garage and everyone is happy and they joke around.
I have never seen Alonso do or maybe just not been very observant.
Obviously the contract needed to be terminated. Doesn't mean he was fired though. If he was fired where is the news of his payout? If you want to keep on the "Alonso was fired" line then I would suggest you'd find some evidence or at least a respected figure who agrees with you.
And you've never seen what? Alonso have a good relationship with a previous team? Two of his four former teams have re-hired him!
He was not "fired" out of respect but it was CLEAR Ferrari(Marchionne, FCA) have decided NOT to renew his contract and wanted to begin a new course.
Emilio Botin, Santander Patron sadly passed away.
And the guys who belong to the Alonso era were removed/left/fired(Montezemolo, Domenicali, Pat Fry, de la Rosa).
NO effort was made to retain Alonso unlike Hamilton when he decided he had enough of McLaren.
When he appeared clear that Hamilton had talk with Mercedes, not only Ron Dennis called Dr. Zetsche to cry and to beg him to turn down Lewis but also Whitmarsh offered more money to Lewis as an incentive to stay.
Nothing of the sort was made for Alonso and many Ferrari people(Mario Forghieri included) were happy to see him "leave".
Re: Alonso and Vettel
Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 6:11 am
by mikeyg123
Pullrod wrote:mikeyg123 wrote:Rockie wrote:Lotus49 wrote:
Why offer him a contract extension and why's James Allison claiming he tried to change his mind?
The entire press pack chased him around for a year asking if he regretted leaving and this myth of a firing still persists. It's bizarre. There's zero evidence of it and buckets of it that he simply lost faith and decided to gamble on McHonda.
Until shown something otherwise I'm more than happy to go with the story backed up by Alonso,Arrivabene,Allison,Marko and the entire paddock press rubbing his nose in it since.
From SkyF1 note the word "terminated"
"Alonso's Ferrari deal was supposed to run until the end of 2016 but with relations between the 33-year-old and the team's new management hierarchy headed by Marco Mattiacci breaking down, Sky F1 understands that the contract was terminated by mutual consent on Thursday night."
Arrivabene wasn't part of the team when it happened and was appointed Nov '14. How will Marko know what happened at Ferrari, Allison's own was a personal opinion and not a Ferrari position.
And we have known teams rep to be economical with truth, when you leave a team amicably you will not take a dig at them which Alonso does at every opportunity, also we see Vettel going to the Redbull garage and everyone is happy and they joke around.
I have never seen Alonso do or maybe just not been very observant.
Obviously the contract needed to be terminated. Doesn't mean he was fired though. If he was fired where is the news of his payout? If you want to keep on the "Alonso was fired" line then I would suggest you'd find some evidence or at least a respected figure who agrees with you.
And you've never seen what? Alonso have a good relationship with a previous team? Two of his four former teams have re-hired him!
He was not "fired" out of respect but it was CLEAR Ferrari(Marchionne, FCA) have decided NOT to renew his contract and wanted to begin a new course.
Emilio Botin, Santander Patron sadly passed away.
And the guys who belong to the Alonso era were removed/left/fired(Montezemolo, Domenicali, Pat Fry, de la Rosa).
NO effort was made to retain Alonso unlike Hamilton when he decided he had enough of McLaren.
When he appeared clear that Hamilton had talk with Mercedes, not only Ron Dennis called Dr. Zetsche to cry and to beg him to turn down Lewis but also Whitmarsh offered more money to Lewis as an incentive to stay.
Nothing of the sort was made for Alonso and many Ferrari people(Mario Forghieri included) were happy to see him "leave".
He had a year running on the contract. I think mutual termination sounds about right.
You agree he wasn't fired then?
Re: Alonso and Vettel
Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 6:18 am
by Pullrod
mikeyg123 wrote:Pullrod wrote:mikeyg123 wrote:Rockie wrote:Lotus49 wrote:
From SkyF1 note the word "terminated"
"Alonso's Ferrari deal was supposed to run until the end of 2016 but with relations between the 33-year-old and the team's new management hierarchy headed by Marco Mattiacci breaking down, Sky F1 understands that the contract was terminated by mutual consent on Thursday night."
Arrivabene wasn't part of the team when it happened and was appointed Nov '14. How will Marko know what happened at Ferrari, Allison's own was a personal opinion and not a Ferrari position.
And we have known teams rep to be economical with truth, when you leave a team amicably you will not take a dig at them which Alonso does at every opportunity, also we see Vettel going to the Redbull garage and everyone is happy and they joke around.
I have never seen Alonso do or maybe just not been very observant.
Obviously the contract needed to be terminated. Doesn't mean he was fired though. If he was fired where is the news of his payout? If you want to keep on the "Alonso was fired" line then I would suggest you'd find some evidence or at least a respected figure who agrees with you.
And you've never seen what? Alonso have a good relationship with a previous team? Two of his four former teams have re-hired him!
He was not "fired" out of respect but it was CLEAR Ferrari(Marchionne, FCA) have decided NOT to renew his contract and wanted to begin a new course.
Emilio Botin, Santander Patron sadly passed away.
And the guys who belong to the Alonso era were removed/left/fired(Montezemolo, Domenicali, Pat Fry, de la Rosa).
NO effort was made to retain Alonso unlike Hamilton when he decided he had enough of McLaren.
When he appeared clear that Hamilton had talk with Mercedes, not only Ron Dennis called Dr. Zetsche to cry and to beg him to turn down Lewis but also Whitmarsh offered more money to Lewis as an incentive to stay.
Nothing of the sort was made for Alonso and many Ferrari people(Mario Forghieri included) were happy to see him "leave".
He had a year running on the contract. I think mutual termination sounds about right.
You agree he wasn't fired then?
The bigwigs at Ferrari had enough of him. He was not wanted anymore and if it was not Vettel, it would have been Hamilton(Marchionne loves Lewis).
So in my book he was "fired". Alonso and Briatore are so bitter and wish ill to Ferrari at any occasion for a reason.
Re: Alonso and Vettel
Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 6:36 am
by mikeyg123
Pullrod wrote:
The bigwigs at Ferrari had enough of him. He was not wanted anymore and if it was not Vettel, it would have been Hamilton(Marchionne loves Lewis).
So in my book he was "fired". Alonso and Briatore are so bitter and wish ill to Ferrari at any occasion for a reason.
Well I believe it was a termination by mutual consent. Both parties deciding to go in another direction.
Do you have any more evidence than me?
Re: Alonso and Vettel
Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 7:29 am
by davidheath461
Pullrod wrote:
The bigwigs at Ferrari had enough of him. He was not wanted anymore and if it was not Vettel, it would have been Hamilton(Marchionne loves Lewis).
Wrong.
Allison was trying his best to convince Alonso to stay, but the latter refused to believe the promises.
So in my book he was "fired". Alonso and Briatore are so bitter and wish ill to Ferrari at any occasion for a reason.
Wrong again.
We're not really interested on how it happened in your book, given the lack of impartiality that you've shown already. The fact is that Alonso chose to leave.
Alonso wished Ferrari well at the start of 2017 and hoped that they could challenge for the title.
Re: Alonso and Vettel
Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 7:33 am
by davidheath461
Pullrod wrote:mikeyg123 wrote:Rockie wrote:Lotus49 wrote:
Why offer him a contract extension and why's James Allison claiming he tried to change his mind?
The entire press pack chased him around for a year asking if he regretted leaving and this myth of a firing still persists. It's bizarre. There's zero evidence of it and buckets of it that he simply lost faith and decided to gamble on McHonda.
Until shown something otherwise I'm more than happy to go with the story backed up by Alonso,Arrivabene,Allison,Marko and the entire paddock press rubbing his nose in it since.
From SkyF1 note the word "terminated"
"Alonso's Ferrari deal was supposed to run until the end of 2016 but with relations between the 33-year-old and the team's new management hierarchy headed by Marco Mattiacci breaking down, Sky F1 understands that the contract was terminated by mutual consent on Thursday night."
Arrivabene wasn't part of the team when it happened and was appointed Nov '14. How will Marko know what happened at Ferrari, Allison's own was a personal opinion and not a Ferrari position.
And we have known teams rep to be economical with truth, when you leave a team amicably you will not take a dig at them which Alonso does at every opportunity, also we see Vettel going to the Redbull garage and everyone is happy and they joke around.
I have never seen Alonso do or maybe just not been very observant.
Obviously the contract needed to be terminated. Doesn't mean he was fired though. If he was fired where is the news of his payout? If you want to keep on the "Alonso was fired" line then I would suggest you'd find some evidence or at least a respected figure who agrees with you.
And you've never seen what? Alonso have a good relationship with a previous team? Two of his four former teams have re-hired him!
He was not "fired" out of respect but it was CLEAR Ferrari(Marchionne, FCA) have decided NOT to renew his contract and wanted to begin a new course.
Emilio Botin, Santander Patron sadly passed away.
And the guys who belong to the Alonso era were removed/left/fired(Montezemolo, Domenicali, Pat Fry, de la Rosa).
NO effort was made to retain Alonso unlike Hamilton when he decided he had enough of McLaren.
When he appeared clear that Hamilton had talk with Mercedes, not only Ron Dennis called Dr. Zetsche to cry and to beg him to turn down Lewis but also Whitmarsh offered more money to Lewis as an incentive to stay.
Nothing of the sort was made for Alonso and many Ferrari people(Mario Forghieri included) were happy to see him "leave".
We have shown you clear evidence of James Allison trying to convince Alonso to stay. You chose to ignore it.
Forghieri is not a Ferrari employee.
Alonso's chief mechanic was in tears at Alonso's last race for Ferrari. His race engineer followed him to Mclaren. Sounds like he was really unpopular at Ferrari.
Re: Alonso and Vettel
Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 7:35 am
by davidheath461
Zoue wrote:mikeyg123 wrote:Rockie wrote:Lotus49 wrote:
Why offer him a contract extension and why's James Allison claiming he tried to change his mind?
The entire press pack chased him around for a year asking if he regretted leaving and this myth of a firing still persists. It's bizarre. There's zero evidence of it and buckets of it that he simply lost faith and decided to gamble on McHonda.
Until shown something otherwise I'm more than happy to go with the story backed up by Alonso,Arrivabene,Allison,Marko and the entire paddock press rubbing his nose in it since.
From SkyF1 note the word "terminated"
"Alonso's Ferrari deal was supposed to run until the end of 2016 but with relations between the 33-year-old and the team's new management hierarchy headed by Marco Mattiacci breaking down, Sky F1 understands that the contract was terminated by mutual consent on Thursday night."
Arrivabene wasn't part of the team when it happened and was appointed Nov '14. How will Marko know what happened at Ferrari, Allison's own was a personal opinion and not a Ferrari position.
And we have known teams rep to be economical with truth, when you leave a team amicably you will not take a dig at them which Alonso does at every opportunity, also we see Vettel going to the Redbull garage and everyone is happy and they joke around.
I have never seen Alonso do or maybe just not been very observant.
Obviously the contract needed to be terminated. Doesn't mean he was fired though. If he was fired where is the news of his payout? If you want to keep on the "Alonso was fired" line then I would suggest you'd find some evidence or at least a respected figure who agrees with you.
And you've never seen what? Alonso have a good relationship with a previous team? Two of his four former teams have re-hired him!
Well, while I agree with you 100% about the contract situation, I don't think it's radical to talk about Alonso's destructive relationships. He did famously complain about how Renault were trying to sabotage him, or words to that effect, and I don't think anyone can pretend that he left McLaren on good terms back in 2007. I think it's fairly true to say he's at least partially burned bridges at Ferrari, too.
Alonso's a terrific driver, to my mind unquestionably the best driver out there. But he's not exactly the poster boy for good relations
How did he burn bridges at Ferrari?
Re: Alonso and Vettel
Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 8:35 am
by Pullrod
mikeyg123 wrote:Pullrod wrote:
The bigwigs at Ferrari had enough of him. He was not wanted anymore and if it was not Vettel, it would have been Hamilton(Marchionne loves Lewis).
So in my book he was "fired". Alonso and Briatore are so bitter and wish ill to Ferrari at any occasion for a reason.
Well I believe it was a termination by mutual consent. Both parties deciding to go in another direction.
Do you have any more evidence than me?
Yes I do.. If you are asking for a conversation or a link, no I can not provide it.
There is a reason why Vettel and Hamilton can switch teams again if they wish(from Ferrari to Mercedes and from Mercedes to Ferrari) but NOT Alonso.
Re: Alonso and Vettel
Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 8:48 am
by Pullrod
davidheath461 wrote:Pullrod wrote:mikeyg123 wrote:Rockie wrote:Lotus49 wrote:
Why offer him a contract extension and why's James Allison claiming he tried to change his mind?
The entire press pack chased him around for a year asking if he regretted leaving and this myth of a firing still persists. It's bizarre. There's zero evidence of it and buckets of it that he simply lost faith and decided to gamble on McHonda.
Until shown something otherwise I'm more than happy to go with the story backed up by Alonso,Arrivabene,Allison,Marko and the entire paddock press rubbing his nose in it since.
From SkyF1 note the word "terminated"
"Alonso's Ferrari deal was supposed to run until the end of 2016 but with relations between the 33-year-old and the team's new management hierarchy headed by Marco Mattiacci breaking down, Sky F1 understands that the contract was terminated by mutual consent on Thursday night."
Arrivabene wasn't part of the team when it happened and was appointed Nov '14. How will Marko know what happened at Ferrari, Allison's own was a personal opinion and not a Ferrari position.
And we have known teams rep to be economical with truth, when you leave a team amicably you will not take a dig at them which Alonso does at every opportunity, also we see Vettel going to the Redbull garage and everyone is happy and they joke around.
I have never seen Alonso do or maybe just not been very observant.
Obviously the contract needed to be terminated. Doesn't mean he was fired though. If he was fired where is the news of his payout? If you want to keep on the "Alonso was fired" line then I would suggest you'd find some evidence or at least a respected figure who agrees with you.
And you've never seen what? Alonso have a good relationship with a previous team? Two of his four former teams have re-hired him!
He was not "fired" out of respect but it was CLEAR Ferrari(Marchionne, FCA) have decided NOT to renew his contract and wanted to begin a new course.
Emilio Botin, Santander Patron sadly passed away.
And the guys who belong to the Alonso era were removed/left/fired(Montezemolo, Domenicali, Pat Fry, de la Rosa).
NO effort was made to retain Alonso unlike Hamilton when he decided he had enough of McLaren.
When he appeared clear that Hamilton had talk with Mercedes, not only Ron Dennis called Dr. Zetsche to cry and to beg him to turn down Lewis but also Whitmarsh offered more money to Lewis as an incentive to stay.
Nothing of the sort was made for Alonso and many Ferrari people(Mario Forghieri included) were happy to see him "leave".
We have shown you clear evidence of James Allison trying to convince Alonso to stay. You chose to ignore it.
Forghieri is not a Ferrari employee.
Alonso's chief mechanic was in tears at Alonso's last race for Ferrari. His race engineer followed him to Mclaren. Sounds like he was really unpopular at Ferrari.
With Alonso it is all about the myth, the legend. He even has a museum.
I have always thought he would have been a successful marketing guy.
Allison has tasted the wrath of Marchionne so he is not a very good example.
Do you remember a picture in 2014 where Alonso and Briatore were smiling in a restaurant with a pack of Marlboro on the table?
They were making fun of Mattiacci who did his best to end the Alonso era.
Of course Briatore said that the intent was different, the same guy(s) who denied everything about crashgate. Flawed character(s).
Re: Alonso and Vettel
Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 8:48 am
by Laz_T800
tootsie323 wrote:The idea that Alonso can drag a 'bad' car into a good position appears to be supported by those behind the scenes, going on
this article from the BBC concerning his effort in Baku after his car had been hit on the first lap.
The Alonso hype machine is strong with that one.
A significant amount of drivers have taken damaged cars to the finish of races without that load of hyperbole.
Re: Alonso and Vettel
Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 8:50 am
by Zoue
davidheath461 wrote:Zoue wrote:mikeyg123 wrote:Rockie wrote:[quote="Lotus49]
Why offer him a contract extension and why's James Allison claiming he tried to change his mind?
The entire press pack chased him around for a year asking if he regretted leaving and this myth of a firing still persists. It's bizarre. There's zero evidence of it and buckets of it that he simply lost faith and decided to gamble on McHonda.
Until shown something otherwise I'm more than happy to go with the story backed up by Alonso,Arrivabene,Allison,Marko and the entire paddock press rubbing his nose in it since.
From SkyF1 note the word "terminated"
"Alonso's Ferrari deal was supposed to run until the end of 2016 but with relations between the 33-year-old and the team's new management hierarchy headed by Marco Mattiacci breaking down, Sky F1 understands that the contract was terminated by mutual consent on Thursday night."
Arrivabene wasn't part of the team when it happened and was appointed Nov '14. How will Marko know what happened at Ferrari, Allison's own was a personal opinion and not a Ferrari position.
And we have known teams rep to be economical with truth, when you leave a team amicably you will not take a dig at them which Alonso does at every opportunity, also we see Vettel going to the Redbull garage and everyone is happy and they joke around.
I have never seen Alonso do or maybe just not been very observant.
Obviously the contract needed to be terminated. Doesn't mean he was fired though. If he was fired where is the news of his payout? If you want to keep on the "Alonso was fired" line then I would suggest you'd find some evidence or at least a respected figure who agrees with you.
And you've never seen what? Alonso have a good relationship with a previous team? Two of his four former teams have re-hired him!
Well, while I agree with you 100% about the contract situation, I don't think it's radical to talk about Alonso's destructive relationships. He did famously complain about how Renault were trying to sabotage him, or words to that effect, and I don't think anyone can pretend that he left McLaren on good terms back in 2007. I think it's fairly true to say he's at least partially burned bridges at Ferrari, too.
Alonso's a terrific driver, to my mind unquestionably the best driver out there. But he's not exactly the poster boy for good relations
How did he burn bridges at Ferrari?[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]
my understanding is that him leaving early was not a happy parting. Happy to be proven wrong on that but I've always understood that the relationship was strained
Re: Alonso and Vettel
Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 9:07 am
by Paolo_Lasardi
Pullrod wrote:mikeyg123 wrote:Pullrod wrote:
The bigwigs at Ferrari had enough of him. He was not wanted anymore and if it was not Vettel, it would have been Hamilton(Marchionne loves Lewis).
So in my book he was "fired". Alonso and Briatore are so bitter and wish ill to Ferrari at any occasion for a reason.
Well I believe it was a termination by mutual consent. Both parties deciding to go in another direction.
Do you have any more evidence than me?
Yes I do.. If you are asking for a conversation or a link, no I can not provide it.
.
Ah, now we are back at secret evidence, evidence that only you know and cannot back up.
As usual.
Re: Alonso and Vettel
Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 9:20 am
by Paolo_Lasardi
Exediron wrote:Rockie wrote:I put a lot of weight on success in any field no one achieves success by being lucky, where preparation meets opportunity people see it as luck.
That's total BS. Vast numbers of people achieve success by being lucky - maybe even most people. The myth that success is always the product of hard work is a dangerous tool used to attack people who are unsuccessful for any reason.
If Alonso had switched to McLaren and the Honda engine really was as dominant as Ron Dennis made it sound, would that mean that it was suddenly all down to Alonso's preparation? Or would he have got lucky, seeing as how he had no way of knowing what the engine would be like (clearly)?
Many people underestimate how much of a differentiator luck often is; and particularly so in a highly technology-depending sport like F1.
Re: Alonso and Vettel
Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 9:32 am
by Rockie
Zoue wrote:Rockie wrote:Lotus49 wrote:
Why offer him a contract extension and why's James Allison claiming he tried to change his mind?
The entire press pack chased him around for a year asking if he regretted leaving and this myth of a firing still persists. It's bizarre. There's zero evidence of it and buckets of it that he simply lost faith and decided to gamble on McHonda.
Until shown something otherwise I'm more than happy to go with the story backed up by Alonso,Arrivabene,Allison,Marko and the entire paddock press rubbing his nose in it since.
From SkyF1 note the word "terminated"
"Alonso's Ferrari deal was supposed to run until the end of 2016 but with relations between the 33-year-old and the team's new management hierarchy headed by Marco Mattiacci breaking down, Sky F1 understands that the contract was terminated by mutual consent on Thursday night."
Arrivabene wasn't part of the team when it happened and was appointed Nov '14. How will Marko know what happened at Ferrari, Allison's own was a personal opinion and not a Ferrari position.
And we have known teams rep to be economical with truth, when you leave a team amicably you will not take a dig at them which Alonso does at every opportunity, also we see Vettel going to the Redbull garage and everyone is happy and they joke around.
I have never seen Alonso do or maybe just not been very observant.
The contract had to be terminated. Alonso left early. The wording is "terminated by mutual consent." In other words, no party was going to sue the other. You can't infer motivation from that wording
Being fired is same as terminated by mutual consent, Ferrari allowed him dignity of negotiating with someone else while still contracted to them, but Vettel was already on board and come hell or high water they were not continuing with him.
Re: Alonso and Vettel
Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 9:32 am
by iano
Exediron wrote:Rockie wrote:I put a lot of weight on success in any field no one achieves success by being lucky, where preparation meets opportunity people see it as luck.
That's total BS. Vast numbers of people achieve success by being lucky - maybe even most people. The myth that success is always the product of hard work is a dangerous tool used to attack people who are unsuccessful for any reason.
If Alonso had switched to McLaren and the Honda engine really was as dominant as Ron Dennis made it sound, would that mean that it was suddenly all down to Alonso's preparation? Or would he have got lucky, seeing as how he had no way of knowing what the engine would be like (clearly)?
Well said on the luck and success. Good clear thinking there.
Hard work can be a key ingredient for success, just can talent but all those count for nothing without the right luck. Even greater talent and hard work can also result in failure without the right luck.
F1 is a great example. The world champion is not necessarily the best driver in the world. Or even in F1. Or in fact, not even necessarily in the team. On the hard work and preparation....is that really the reason Hamilton finished the last race ahead of Bottas?
Re: Alonso and Vettel
Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 9:35 am
by Rockie
davidheath461 wrote:Pullrod wrote:
The bigwigs at Ferrari had enough of him. He was not wanted anymore and if it was not Vettel, it would have been Hamilton(Marchionne loves Lewis).
Wrong.
Allison was trying his best to convince Alonso to stay, but the latter refused to believe the promises.
So in my book he was "fired". Alonso and Briatore are so bitter and wish ill to Ferrari at any occasion for a reason.
Wrong again.
We're not really interested on how it happened in your book, given the lack of impartiality that you've shown already. The fact is that Alonso chose to leave.
Alonso wished Ferrari well at the start of 2017 and hoped that they could challenge for the title.
Allison himself was shown the door in 2015, and saying Alonso wished Ferrari well is a big joke.
Re: Alonso and Vettel
Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 9:46 am
by Rockie
davidheath461 wrote:
We have shown you clear evidence of James Allison trying to convince Alonso to stay. You chose to ignore it.
Forghieri is not a Ferrari employee.
Alonso's chief mechanic was in tears at Alonso's last race for Ferrari. His race engineer followed him to Mclaren. Sounds like he was really unpopular at Ferrari.
For Allison it was personal and not Ferrari position.
For Forghieri, I'm sure no one in future will just throwaway what Newey says after retiring about Redbull.
As for his chief mechanic, everyone has someone who loves them in an organisation even when the management cant stand you.
Re: Alonso and Vettel
Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 9:53 am
by Rockie
Laz_T800 wrote:tootsie323 wrote:The idea that Alonso can drag a 'bad' car into a good position appears to be supported by those behind the scenes, going on
this article from the BBC concerning his effort in Baku after his car had been hit on the first lap.
The Alonso hype machine is strong with that one.
A significant amount of drivers have taken damaged cars to the finish of races without that load of hyperbole.
Really strong hype and it's the thing with Alonso that nauseates me, in a crucial title decider Vettel was spun around sidepods and badgeboards damage and without help of a safety car after being dead last came home sixth he didnt praise himself to the high heavens.
But Alonso it has to be the race of his life, Leclerc in a Sauber finished 5th but Alonso's drive has to be so spectacular, just like the praise he heaped on himself overtaking the damaged Ferrari of Vettel in China it's tiring and tedious.
Re: Alonso and Vettel
Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 10:11 am
by Zoue
Rockie wrote:Zoue wrote:Rockie wrote:Lotus49 wrote:
Why offer him a contract extension and why's James Allison claiming he tried to change his mind?
The entire press pack chased him around for a year asking if he regretted leaving and this myth of a firing still persists. It's bizarre. There's zero evidence of it and buckets of it that he simply lost faith and decided to gamble on McHonda.
Until shown something otherwise I'm more than happy to go with the story backed up by Alonso,Arrivabene,Allison,Marko and the entire paddock press rubbing his nose in it since.
From SkyF1 note the word "terminated"
"Alonso's Ferrari deal was supposed to run until the end of 2016 but with relations between the 33-year-old and the team's new management hierarchy headed by Marco Mattiacci breaking down, Sky F1 understands that the contract was terminated by mutual consent on Thursday night."
Arrivabene wasn't part of the team when it happened and was appointed Nov '14. How will Marko know what happened at Ferrari, Allison's own was a personal opinion and not a Ferrari position.
And we have known teams rep to be economical with truth, when you leave a team amicably you will not take a dig at them which Alonso does at every opportunity, also we see Vettel going to the Redbull garage and everyone is happy and they joke around.
I have never seen Alonso do or maybe just not been very observant.
The contract had to be terminated. Alonso left early. The wording is "terminated by mutual consent." In other words, no party was going to sue the other. You can't infer motivation from that wording
Being fired is same as terminated by mutual consent, Ferrari allowed him dignity of negotiating with someone else while still contracted to them, but Vettel was already on board and come hell or high water they were not continuing with him.
Being fired is in no way the same as being terminated by mutual consent. The former is a specific action by the employer; the other gives no clue as to who instigated the action.
When Kimi was terminated, the action was driven by Ferrari and the details of Kimi's severance pay were widely discussed. When Alonso left Ferrari, no such details were ever made public, to the best of my recollection. Alonso is no shrinking violet and it's doubtful to the point of improbable that he would have left against his will without some significant compensation being involved. All the evidence points to it being a joint decision.
As to Vettel's signing, it's logical for two parties about to break up to consider other options. You're making deductions about causality when there is no evidence to support it.
Re: Alonso and Vettel
Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 10:23 am
by Rockie
Zoue wrote:
Being fired is in no way the same as being terminated by mutual consent. The former is a specific action by the employer; the other gives no clue as to who instigated the action.
When Kimi was terminated, the action was driven by Ferrari and the details of Kimi's severance pay were widely discussed. When Alonso left Ferrari, no such details were ever made public, to the best of my recollection. Alonso is no shrinking violet and it's doubtful to the point of improbable that he would have left against his will without some significant compensation being involved. All the evidence points to it being a joint decision.
As to Vettel's signing, it's logical for two parties about to break up to consider other options. You're making deductions about causality when there is no evidence to support it.
A quick look at contract law can tell you all you need to know, Vettel triggered his performance clause to leave Redbull and both owed each other nothing.
Relying on mutual consent to justify what you saying without knowing what triggered it, is why I insist on him being fired.
The fact Ferrari had a driver in place and Alonso had not signed at Mclaren tells me all I need to know.
Kimi was different as Ferrari was buying him out of his contract, being financed by Satander.
Re: Alonso and Vettel
Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 10:24 am
by mikeyg123
I don't believe for a second Alonso was fired but even if he was I really don't see how itvwaa any bearing on how good he is at racing F1 cars.
Re: Alonso and Vettel
Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 10:58 am
by Pullrod
Zoue wrote:Rockie wrote:Zoue wrote:Rockie wrote:Lotus49 wrote:
Why offer him a contract extension and why's James Allison claiming he tried to change his mind?
The entire press pack chased him around for a year asking if he regretted leaving and this myth of a firing still persists. It's bizarre. There's zero evidence of it and buckets of it that he simply lost faith and decided to gamble on McHonda.
Until shown something otherwise I'm more than happy to go with the story backed up by Alonso,Arrivabene,Allison,Marko and the entire paddock press rubbing his nose in it since.
From SkyF1 note the word "terminated"
"Alonso's Ferrari deal was supposed to run until the end of 2016 but with relations between the 33-year-old and the team's new management hierarchy headed by Marco Mattiacci breaking down, Sky F1 understands that the contract was terminated by mutual consent on Thursday night."
Arrivabene wasn't part of the team when it happened and was appointed Nov '14. How will Marko know what happened at Ferrari, Allison's own was a personal opinion and not a Ferrari position.
And we have known teams rep to be economical with truth, when you leave a team amicably you will not take a dig at them which Alonso does at every opportunity, also we see Vettel going to the Redbull garage and everyone is happy and they joke around.
I have never seen Alonso do or maybe just not been very observant.
The contract had to be terminated. Alonso left early. The wording is "terminated by mutual consent." In other words, no party was going to sue the other. You can't infer motivation from that wording
Being fired is same as terminated by mutual consent, Ferrari allowed him dignity of negotiating with someone else while still contracted to them, but Vettel was already on board and come hell or high water they were not continuing with him.
Being fired is in no way the same as being terminated by mutual consent. The former is a specific action by the employer; the other gives no clue as to who instigated the action.
When Kimi was terminated, the action was driven by Ferrari and the details of Kimi's severance pay were widely discussed. When Alonso left Ferrari, no such details were ever made public, to the best of my recollection.
Alonso is no shrinking violet and it's doubtful to the point of improbable that he would have left against his will without some significant compensation being involved. All the evidence points to it being a joint decision.
As to Vettel's signing, it's logical for two parties about to break up to consider other options. You're making deductions about causality when there is no evidence to support it.
Only possible if he didn't sign with another team.
Kimi contract was terminated by Ferrari but he was paid NOT to drive for another team if he didn't want to lose his salary. Top football managers have this kind of contract. No idea how was Alonso's though, but the fact remains that he could not continue with Ferrari even if he wished.
Re: Alonso and Vettel
Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 11:01 am
by Zoue
Rockie wrote:Zoue wrote:
Being fired is in no way the same as being terminated by mutual consent. The former is a specific action by the employer; the other gives no clue as to who instigated the action.
When Kimi was terminated, the action was driven by Ferrari and the details of Kimi's severance pay were widely discussed. When Alonso left Ferrari, no such details were ever made public, to the best of my recollection. Alonso is no shrinking violet and it's doubtful to the point of improbable that he would have left against his will without some significant compensation being involved. All the evidence points to it being a joint decision.
As to Vettel's signing, it's logical for two parties about to break up to consider other options. You're making deductions about causality when there is no evidence to support it.
A quick look at contract law can tell you all you need to know, Vettel triggered his performance clause to leave Redbull and both owed each other nothing.
Relying on mutual consent to justify what you saying without knowing what triggered it, is why I insist on him being fired.
The fact Ferrari had a driver in place and Alonso had not signed at Mclaren tells me all I need to know.
Kimi was different as Ferrari was buying him out of his contract, being financed by Satander.
Well, Vettel triggering his performance clause tells us two things:
1) He had a performance clause which allowed him to do so
2) He definitely wasn't fired
Kimi being let go and getting compensation tells us:
1) It wasn't his choice (i.e. he was fired)
2) Ferrari therefore had to pay for breaching his contract
Alonso having his contract terminated by mutual consent tells us only that we don't know anything about the circumstances. The fact that there was no talk about compensation strongly suggests that at the very least Alonso was a willing participant
As for the line that Ferrari had a driver in place and Alonso had not yet signed for McLaren, I don't think you know this for sure. Ferrari only confirmed Vettel's signing at the same time Alonso confirmed his departure. You choose to believe he was forced out, but you must at least consider that public announcements don't necessarily follow the same timeline as private negotiations and decisions (including signings). You don't have proof of any kind that events didn't unfold how Alonso wanted them to
Re: Alonso and Vettel
Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 11:04 am
by pokerman
mcdo wrote:pokerman wrote:KingVoid wrote:Vettel was regarded by many as the driver of the season in 2015, when he won 3 races against a dominant car.
A dominant car that finished 6th and 8th in Hungary and 4th in Singapore.
I'm no Vettel fan but that was a legit win in Hungary. Merc didn't end up back there because of pace
The Ferrari's overtook the Mercs off the grid on a track were you can't overtake, not just Vettel's Ferrari, and if it had been Vettel's engine that failed and not Kimi's then it would have been Kimi winning the race and not Vettel.
Re: Alonso and Vettel
Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 11:06 am
by pokerman
Rockie wrote:I still don't understand how Alonso is the best of his generation, what generation exactly?
Will that be in the '00's or '10's?
As in the '00's we had MSC.
In the '10's it's been between Vettel and Hamilton so I'm wondering exactly which era Alonso has been the best in? Folks confusing what could have been to what actually happened.
What we have is peoples opinion and campaign by commentators of "I wonder what Alonso will be doing in that car" if you are good enough top teams will go out of their way to sign you.
After the worst season of his career so far, Ferrari went out to sign Vettel and buy Alonso out of the last year to build a new future, hence why he ended up at Mclaren.
Same way Mercedes went after Hamilton, after Vettel turning them down in '13.
Did Mercedes approach Vettel, first I've heard of that?
Re: Alonso and Vettel
Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 11:07 am
by Zoue
Pullrod wrote:Zoue wrote:Rockie wrote:Zoue wrote:Rockie wrote:
From SkyF1 note the word "terminated"
"Alonso's Ferrari deal was supposed to run until the end of 2016 but with relations between the 33-year-old and the team's new management hierarchy headed by Marco Mattiacci breaking down, Sky F1 understands that the contract was terminated by mutual consent on Thursday night."
Arrivabene wasn't part of the team when it happened and was appointed Nov '14. How will Marko know what happened at Ferrari, Allison's own was a personal opinion and not a Ferrari position.
And we have known teams rep to be economical with truth, when you leave a team amicably you will not take a dig at them which Alonso does at every opportunity, also we see Vettel going to the Redbull garage and everyone is happy and they joke around.
I have never seen Alonso do or maybe just not been very observant.
The contract had to be terminated. Alonso left early. The wording is "terminated by mutual consent." In other words, no party was going to sue the other. You can't infer motivation from that wording
Being fired is same as terminated by mutual consent, Ferrari allowed him dignity of negotiating with someone else while still contracted to them, but Vettel was already on board and come hell or high water they were not continuing with him.
Being fired is in no way the same as being terminated by mutual consent. The former is a specific action by the employer; the other gives no clue as to who instigated the action.
When Kimi was terminated, the action was driven by Ferrari and the details of Kimi's severance pay were widely discussed. When Alonso left Ferrari, no such details were ever made public, to the best of my recollection.
Alonso is no shrinking violet and it's doubtful to the point of improbable that he would have left against his will without some significant compensation being involved. All the evidence points to it being a joint decision.
As to Vettel's signing, it's logical for two parties about to break up to consider other options. You're making deductions about causality when there is no evidence to support it.
Only possible if he didn't sign with another team.
Kimi contract was terminated by Ferrari but he was paid NOT to drive for another team if he didn't want to lose his salary. Top football managers have this kind of contract. No idea how was Alonso's though, but the fact remains that he could not continue with Ferrari even if he wished.
I don't believe that is a fact, though. It's speculation, like almost everything surrounding his departure.
And Kimi being paid not to drive for another team was also speculation. I don't believe it was ever corroborated. And in any event, he wasn't barred from going anywhere and the same reports referred to McLaren offering him a lower salary because they knew of his contractual payments. And the
rumour is that Kimi chose not to drive for McLaren because of that. If similar negotiations had occurred between Alonso and McLaren, do you really think we wouldn't have had a sniff of it?
The lack of any factual evidence supporting Ferrari sacking Alonso suggests that the official mutual consent statement is correct and Alonso was at least a willing participant in the events that unfolded
Re: Alonso and Vettel
Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 11:14 am
by pokerman
Rockie wrote:Lotus49 wrote:Rockie wrote:I still don't understand how Alonso is the best of his generation, what generation exactly?
Will that be in the '00's or '10's?
As in the '00's we had MSC.
In the '10's it's been between Vettel and Hamilton so I'm wondering exactly which era Alonso has been the best in? Folks confusing what could have been to what actually happened.
What we have is peoples opinion and campaign by commentators of "I wonder what Alonso will be doing in that car" if you are good enough top teams will go out of their way to sign you.
After the worst season of his career so far, Ferrari went out to sign Vettel and buy Alonso out of the last year to build a new future, hence why he ended up at Mclaren.
Same way Mercedes went after Hamilton, after Vettel turning them down in '13.
Wut?
In the real world Alonso left Ferrari for McHonda, Seb left Red Bull for Ferrari and Mercedes targeted Lewis from the get go.
What years should Alonso have beaten Seb or Lewis considering their respective cars and talent levels that he didn't do? I can come up with 2007 with Lewis. And that's it. So not winning as much as them means about as much as asking why couldn't Seb beat Lewis 2014-17. Or why Lewis couldn't beat Seb (Or even Alonso) 2010-13.
What he lacks is his own period in a dominant car to boost his stats. And I dunno about you but if McLaren came up with a trick that left them completely dominant over Ferrari and Mercedes for even just two years then an extra 30 wins,poles and 2 titles against them doesn't really change that much does it? If so, what exactly?
If those periods when those drivers were outside of the dominant car and couldn't win rule them out of the conversation then fair enough, otherwise what's your point again?
Vettel was approached for the Mercedes project before Hamilton, even Lauda confirmed that.
Alonso was shown the door at Ferrari, and if not for a spiteful Horner, Alonso won't have known Vettel had signed with Ferrari, Horner forced Ferrari and Vettel to announce the partnership earlier than they wanted so Alonso had no choice but to go to Mclaren.
Being the best in a generation you cant be outside of a winning team for 11 years, since the last time he won, Raikkonen, Hamilton, Button, Vettel and Rosberg have all won.
So exactly what makes him best, if the best teams refuse to let him in their team?
I would gave to ask for a source for Lauda confirming that because the rest of your post lacks accuracy for instance leaving out the fact that Alonso tendered his resignation and making it seem that Alonso got sacked by Ferrari.
Re: Alonso and Vettel
Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 11:21 am
by pokerman
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:mikeyg123 wrote:Mercedes-Benz wrote:Paolo_Lasardi wrote:Baku 2018
Alonso drags a non-top 10 car to P6 despite massive first lap damage outside his fault, beating his teammate despite being several places behindand beating several quicker cars on the way.
Vettel scores P4 in the best car of the field, losing out to his teammate (who was several places behind him) and to a driver in an inferior car, all due to his own driving mistake.
Vettel throws away four (!) possible wins in the last, I don't know, 12-15 races.
We have (imperfect) evidence that Ricciardo is better than Vettel, we have no evidence whatsoever that it may be the other way around.
There is really no good reason to believe that Vettel is on the same level as Hamilton, Alonso, and - potential-wise - Verstappen. But he is not far behind, for sure.
Vettel made one big mistake for sure but otherwise he was great all weekend. Alonso teammates barely stand a chance against him. Alonso owns the team. Mclaren and Alonso have consistently picked up points due to other having bad races rather than their performance. Not considering even RBR drivers and Bottas. Ocon, Grosjean, Hulk. Kevin Mag also had a bad race all these were going to finish ahead of him.
Perhaps Alonso consistently picks up points by not having bad races more than anything else. It's too much of a common thread throughout his career for it to just be luck. he's just got a knack of picking his way through a race. He's currently 6th in the WDC with probably the 6th best car.
Same thing with Alonso's teammates. They get all sorts of praise before being teamed with Alonso, then when he is beating them all kind of excuses are used, and eventually they are declared to never have been good in the first place. Fisichella, Massa, Räikkönen, Button, wunderkind Vandoorne ...
Button beat Alonso in 2015, just saying although of course points don't always tell the true story, but I think you would have to be stretching some kind of reality to suggest that Alonso schooled Button in 2015.