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Another minor mistake damaging his front wing, got away with it though

Are we really going to focus on that one mistake which didn’t even effect the final result, and completely ignore the speed advantage he had over Ricciardo?

KingVoid wrote:Are we really going to focus on that one mistake which didn’t even effect the final result, and completely ignore the speed advantage he had over Ricciardo?

The speed advantage he had over Ricciardo was noticeable but not all that huge. The not spinning behind the virtual safety car advantage he had over Ricciardo was pretty significant, however...

In all seriousness, nobody questions Verstappen's speed. That's why nobody is making a big deal about him being quick in the race; we all know he's quick. But a lot of people also think he makes too many mistakes, and he made another one in this race. It was relatively minor, but that's still 5 from 5 races on the season that he's made a serious mistake in the race.

Exediron wrote:

KingVoid wrote:Are we really going to focus on that one mistake which didn’t even effect the final result, and completely ignore the speed advantage he had over Ricciardo?

The speed advantage he had over Ricciardo was noticeable but not all that huge. The not spinning behind the virtual safety car advantage he had over Ricciardo was pretty significant, however...

In all seriousness, nobody questions Verstappen's speed. That's why nobody is making a big deal about him being quick in the race; we all know he's quick. But a lot of people also think he makes too many mistakes, and he made another one in this race. It was relatively minor, but that's still 5 from 5 races on the season that he's made a serious mistake in the race.

Come on, that wasn't a serious mistake. He didn't lose a place, no one had to quit the race... I would argue Bahrain wasn't a serious mistake either, just a racing incident, but some people might see that differently, I agree.

He's not going to have the best race craft all of a sudden, he might never have, but it will take some time. He did what he had to do yesterday.

Llotyhy wrote:

Exediron wrote:

KingVoid wrote:Are we really going to focus on that one mistake which didn’t even effect the final result, and completely ignore the speed advantage he had over Ricciardo?

The speed advantage he had over Ricciardo was noticeable but not all that huge. The not spinning behind the virtual safety car advantage he had over Ricciardo was pretty significant, however...

In all seriousness, nobody questions Verstappen's speed. That's why nobody is making a big deal about him being quick in the race; we all know he's quick. But a lot of people also think he makes too many mistakes, and he made another one in this race. It was relatively minor, but that's still 5 from 5 races on the season that he's made a serious mistake in the race.

Come on, that wasn't a serious mistake. He didn't lose a place, no one had to quit the race... I would argue Bahrain wasn't a serious mistake either, just a racing incident, but some people might see that differently, I agree.

He's not going to have the best race craft all of a sudden, he might never have, but it will take some time. He did what he had to do yesterday.

credit to him: he did very well with the car after he lost the endplate and put in some decent lap times. I wrote in the race thread that it didn't appear to hamper him at all.

But at the end of the day the consequences could have been a lot more severe. He was lucky the damage wasn't more extensive and he didn't have to come in for a new wing, ending his podium hopes.

Llotyhy wrote:Come on, that wasn't a serious mistake. He didn't lose a place, no one had to quit the race... I would argue Bahrain wasn't a serious mistake either, just a racing incident, but some people might see that differently, I agree.

He's not going to have the best race craft all of a sudden, he might never have, but it will take some time. He did what he had to do yesterday.

Since when is running into the back of another car not a serious mistake? It's potentially race ending, and certainly likely to require a front wing change. As the Bahrain example highlights, the contact doesn't need to be all that severe to lead to a DNF - in Barcelona the dice came up in Max's favor, in Bahrain they didn't.

His hit on Lewis was potentially a 50/50 sort of incident, but since he crashed all on his own in qualifying he still clearly made a serious mistake for that race either way you count it.

KingVoid wrote:Are we really going to focus on that one mistake which didn’t even effect the final result, and completely ignore the speed advantage he had over Ricciardo?

Is this true? Ricciardo had the fastest lap by nearly a second. 1’18.441

Also its not clear that the wing damage didn't have an effect, Vettel nearly caught him on the last lap, how did he lose such a huge advantage?

Option or Prime wrote:

KingVoid wrote:Are we really going to focus on that one mistake which didn’t even effect the final result, and completely ignore the speed advantage he had over Ricciardo?

Is this true? Ricciardo had the fastest lap by nearly a second. 1’18.441

Also its not clear that the wing damage didn't have an effect, Vettel nearly caught him on the last lap, how did he lose such a huge advantage?

what huge advantage?

Option or Prime wrote:Also its not clear that the wing damage didn't have an effect, Vettel nearly caught him on the last lap, how did he lose such a huge advantage?

Vettel was between 3.0 and 1.8 seconds behind Max for the entire time since he came out of the pits behind him. It was usually about 2 seconds, and never more than 3. I don't know why he suddenly caught up on the last lap, but the real question is why he didn't catch up (and overtake) sooner, with fresher tyres and Max driving a damaged car.

Max slowed heavily the last three laps, that's all. It wasn't anything Vettel was doing in particular. Max went 1.5s slower on lap 66 than he did on lap 64. And that in turn was 0.3s slower than the previous lap. But given how overtaking was next to impossible here, it's impossible to read anything into those figures and deduce any potential problems. He was doubtless just easing off and bringing it home

I was surprised no action was taken about Max's front wing. When Hamilton and Rosberg had their moment on the last lap of Austria 2016, Rosberg was punished for completing the lap with a damaged front wing. Yesterday's incident was long before the end of the race, and somebody ran clean over the debris that was deposited on the racing line. That made me wonder what the difference was between the two cases.

I also wonder what the influence of the lack of left endplate on Max's wing would have been for a car following him. The wake turbulence could be less, but might it not have been worse because it was asymmetric? And what influence would there have been with most important turns being to the right?

Zoue wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:

KingVoid wrote:Are we really going to focus on that one mistake which didn’t even effect the final result, and completely ignore the speed advantage he had over Ricciardo?

Is this true? Ricciardo had the fastest lap by nearly a second. 1’18.441

Also its not clear that the wing damage didn't have an effect, Vettel nearly caught him on the last lap, how did he lose such a huge advantage?

what huge advantage?

2.4 sec gap to 0.8 sec gap in the last lap, not so huge as I thought so apologies. Vettel's tyres were going so I think he could have caught him if the front left wasn't shot.

The point I was making was that there wasn't much difference in speed between the two Red Bulls, MV was lucky that the damage from contact was a clean break and he didn't need to swap noses, his clumsiness might be more costly next time.
In my view he has to stop hitting people.

Zoue wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:

KingVoid wrote:Are we really going to focus on that one mistake which didn’t even effect the final result, and completely ignore the speed advantage he had over Ricciardo?

Is this true? Ricciardo had the fastest lap by nearly a second. 1’18.441

Also its not clear that the wing damage didn't have an effect, Vettel nearly caught him on the last lap, how did he lose such a huge advantage?

what huge advantage?

The huge advantage was that Ricciardo's mistake of spinning after the virtual safety car cost far more than Verstappen's mistake of impact with another car.

Also note that although Ricciardo was able to put in fastest laps, he himself said they were mixed with slower laps and his car was inconsistent.

iano wrote:

Zoue wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:

KingVoid wrote:Are we really going to focus on that one mistake which didn’t even effect the final result, and completely ignore the speed advantage he had over Ricciardo?

Is this true? Ricciardo had the fastest lap by nearly a second. 1’18.441

Also its not clear that the wing damage didn't have an effect, Vettel nearly caught him on the last lap, how did he lose such a huge advantage?

what huge advantage?

The huge advantage was that Ricciardo's mistake of spinning after the virtual safety car cost far more than Verstappen's mistake of impact with another car.

Also note that although Ricciardo was able to put in fastest laps, he himself said they were mixed with slower laps and his car was inconsistent.

I'm sorry, you've lost me a bit. How is that relevant to the advantage Max held over Vettel?

Fiki wrote:I was surprised no action was taken about Max's front wing. When Hamilton and Rosberg had their moment on the last lap of Austria 2016, Rosberg was punished for completing the lap with a damaged front wing. Yesterday's incident was long before the end of the race, and somebody ran clean over the debris that was deposited on the racing line. That made me wonder what the difference was between the two cases.

I also wonder what the influence of the lack of left endplate on Max's wing would have been for a car following him. The wake turbulence could be less, but might it not have been worse because it was asymmetric? And what influence would there have been with most important turns being to the right?

I can only think that Nico had a large portion of the front wing under the car - this made him really slow? I remember there were a lot of sparks from it.. I think that may have been why he was penalised?

We do seem to be getting more debris on the track than I can remember for some time.

Yellowbin74 wrote:

Fiki wrote:I was surprised no action was taken about Max's front wing. When Hamilton and Rosberg had their moment on the last lap of Austria 2016, Rosberg was punished for completing the lap with a damaged front wing. Yesterday's incident was long before the end of the race, and somebody ran clean over the debris that was deposited on the racing line. That made me wonder what the difference was between the two cases.

I also wonder what the influence of the lack of left endplate on Max's wing would have been for a car following him. The wake turbulence could be less, but might it not have been worse because it was asymmetric? And what influence would there have been with most important turns being to the right?

I can only think that Nico had a large portion of the front wing under the car - this made him really slow? I remember there were a lot of sparks from it.. I think that may have been why he was penalised?

We do seem to be getting more debris on the track than I can remember for some time.

Verstappen's end plate flew off onto the racing line which another car hit.

Clarky wrote:

Yellowbin74 wrote:

Fiki wrote:I was surprised no action was taken about Max's front wing. When Hamilton and Rosberg had their moment on the last lap of Austria 2016, Rosberg was punished for completing the lap with a damaged front wing. Yesterday's incident was long before the end of the race, and somebody ran clean over the debris that was deposited on the racing line. That made me wonder what the difference was between the two cases.

I also wonder what the influence of the lack of left endplate on Max's wing would have been for a car following him. The wake turbulence could be less, but might it not have been worse because it was asymmetric? And what influence would there have been with most important turns being to the right?

I can only think that Nico had a large portion of the front wing under the car - this made him really slow? I remember there were a lot of sparks from it.. I think that may have been why he was penalised?

We do seem to be getting more debris on the track than I can remember for some time.

Verstappen's end plate flew off onto the racing line which another car hit.

I think it was Perez that drove over it, and it stayed under his car for quite some time.

TedStriker wrote:

Clarky wrote:

Yellowbin74 wrote:

Fiki wrote:I was surprised no action was taken about Max's front wing. When Hamilton and Rosberg had their moment on the last lap of Austria 2016, Rosberg was punished for completing the lap with a damaged front wing. Yesterday's incident was long before the end of the race, and somebody ran clean over the debris that was deposited on the racing line. That made me wonder what the difference was between the two cases.

I also wonder what the influence of the lack of left endplate on Max's wing would have been for a car following him. The wake turbulence could be less, but might it not have been worse because it was asymmetric? And what influence would there have been with most important turns being to the right?

I can only think that Nico had a large portion of the front wing under the car - this made him really slow? I remember there were a lot of sparks from it.. I think that may have been why he was penalised?

We do seem to be getting more debris on the track than I can remember for some time.

Verstappen's end plate flew off onto the racing line which another car hit.

I think it was Perez that drove over it, and it stayed under his car for quite some time.

Yeah, quite lucky if you think what happened to Bottas just in the previous race. Losing some part of the car should be punishment enough (though not in all cases, I remember famously Massa losing a chunk of his front wing and actually going faster lap after lap). Would that size piece necessitate a safety car? I honestly don't know what the best action would be.

But I don't think a driver should be punished further, he didn't take out the car he clipped and Perez's car was also ok. If he had caused another accident then I'd agree. I admit that I do not remember the 2016 incident and any similarities to this one, but in general I do not feel that a car should be punished further if they caused no other grief in the field.

Exediron wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:Also its not clear that the wing damage didn't have an effect, Vettel nearly caught him on the last lap, how did he lose such a huge advantage?

Vettel was between 3.0 and 1.8 seconds behind Max for the entire time since he came out of the pits behind him. It was usually about 2 seconds, and never more than 3. I don't know why he suddenly caught up on the last lap, but the real question is why he didn't catch up (and overtake) sooner, with fresher tyres and Max driving a damaged car.

Vettel was only slightly quicker than Max at that stage. His tires were only slightly newer and there just wasn't enough pace for him to pass. Barcelona was really brutal on cars following closely behind another car. Passing was only possible if you caught someone napping or if you had a solid 1.5-2.0 seconds in pace over them.

KingVoid wrote:Are we really going to focus on that one mistake which didn’t even effect the final result, and completely ignore the speed advantage he had over Ricciardo?

Lesser mistakes have ended with BOTH drivers out of the race.

Minor mistake?

I was more like 'where the hell is he going?'... very difficult to understand, since it appeared he was going to crash unless he modified his line or speed (both of which he could do) one or two seconds before he actually did go ahead and... implemented the crash...

It was pathetic. Even more after Baku.

Speedwise he did very well. But that is no excuse.

Llotyhy wrote:

Exediron wrote:

KingVoid wrote:Are we really going to focus on that one mistake which didn’t even effect the final result, and completely ignore the speed advantage he had over Ricciardo?

The speed advantage he had over Ricciardo was noticeable but not all that huge. The not spinning behind the virtual safety car advantage he had over Ricciardo was pretty significant, however...

In all seriousness, nobody questions Verstappen's speed. That's why nobody is making a big deal about him being quick in the race; we all know he's quick. But a lot of people also think he makes too many mistakes, and he made another one in this race. It was relatively minor, but that's still 5 from 5 races on the season that he's made a serious mistake in the race.

Come on, that wasn't a serious mistake. He didn't lose a place, no one had to quit the race... I would argue Bahrain wasn't a serious mistake either, just a racing incident, but some people might see that differently, I agree.

He's not going to have the best race craft all of a sudden, he might never have, but it will take some time. He did what he had to do yesterday.

It's only a mistake if it costs you that seems to be the argument, but the counter argument is that the more mistakes you make then the more likely it will end up costing you.

What are the odds versteppen crashes at some point this weekend??? Given his current form i feel he is unlikely to finish ....

Mayhem wrote:What are the odds versteppen crashes at some point this weekend??? Given his current form i feel he is unlikely to finish ....

It's not his best track.

mikeyg123 wrote:

Mayhem wrote:What are the odds versteppen crashes at some point this weekend??? Given his current form i feel he is unlikely to finish ....

It's not his best track.

Not at all, he has shown great pace here in the oast but then was quickly followed up by a crash

Mayhem wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

Mayhem wrote:What are the odds versteppen crashes at some point this weekend??? Given his current form i feel he is unlikely to finish ....

It's not his best track.

Not at all, he has shown great pace here in the oast but then was quickly followed up by a crash

I believe that was when the track moved twice...

Fiki wrote:

Mayhem wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

Mayhem wrote:What are the odds versteppen crashes at some point this weekend??? Given his current form i feel he is unlikely to finish ....

It's not his best track.

Not at all, he has shown great pace here in the oast but then was quickly followed up by a crash

I believe that was when the track moved twice...

An illegal double movement?

pokerman wrote:

Fiki wrote:

Mayhem wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

Mayhem wrote:What are the odds versteppen crashes at some point this weekend??? Given his current form i feel he is unlikely to finish ....

It's not his best track.

Not at all, he has shown great pace here in the oast but then was quickly followed up by a crash

I believe that was when the track moved twice...

An illegal double movement?

Obviously!

Mayhem wrote:What are the odds versteppen crashes at some point this weekend??? Given his current form i feel he is unlikely to finish ....

All or nothing this weekend for Max IMO. He'll win, or bin it.

JN23 wrote:

Mayhem wrote:What are the odds versteppen crashes at some point this weekend??? Given his current form i feel he is unlikely to finish ....

All or nothing this weekend for Max IMO. He'll win, or bin it.

I think that what Verstappen needs to do is not try too hard. He hasn't had a single totally clean weekend this year. I have to blame him for what he did on Stroll. Stroll did slow down a bit more than he needed to. But this was when the flashing yellow sign was visible. Just after Verstappen had hit him, it went green. Stroll didn't need to slow down but there is nothing against what he did, but drivers should not drive as close to the one ahead like Verstappen did. In those instances, you should be prepared to slow down or stop. If Verstappen hit Stroll when Stroll was just going fractionally slower, then they is pretty poor IMO. He was really lucky that his bit of damage did fly off without giving him a puncture. And nobody else including Perez suffered either. He kept it clean and performed well after that, but it was a really lucky escape.

Once he has a few more cautious clean races, then start seeing if he can push hard without getting into a mess.

I think that he is unlikely to win somehow. Even though he looked better than Ricciardo last year, he's made many massive errors at this track. 3 crashes over one weekend in 2016 and crashed out in the race in 2015 too. If the others mess up in qualifying and he puts things together and gets pole. And if he manages to get a good start, then maybe he will win. But He hasn't put together this many good things in quite some time and he makes more mistakes at this track than others, despite his pace.

Maximum Verstappen.

They will never drop Max... Too much excitement .... Hoping Daniel has a very good season this year.

Noni wrote:They will never drop Max... Too much excitement .... Hoping Daniel has a very good season this year.

Never say never.

Monaco is the first race where RB went from publicly defending Max to public warning him.

If he continues to crash, make no mistake, he'll be removed. It'll just take longer than it would for most other drivers.

Verstappen needs to stay away from Vettel, any incident and he will be straight down the pit lane knocking on Christian Horner's door!

I read for the first time an article that appeared on my Google feed questioning his position at RB and a possible demotion to TR. He denied it of course, but it has happened before (though in fairness I do rate MAx above Kvyat). We have seen how cut-throat these two teams can be, the only thing to consider carefully is his big contract.

But I wouldn't go that far. I'd rather see them handle him properly, mould him into the driver that he can be

“If a driver is constantly making mistakes, he must calm down and slow down. But to beat Ricciardo’s level, he has to take more risks. It can only mean one thing: Max is not as good as Daniel. Full stop,” Villeneuve said.

Source: https://sportstalk24.com/1997-world-cha ... erstappen/

Not that I ever listen to what JV has to say. Thought it might fuel some conversion.

Another crash in fp3 with the speed advantage rbr had it could've be an easy 1-2.

I think the pressure to preform had got to him. Just needs to calm down and put together a string of drama free weekends

Max seemed already agitated in today's press conference. Seeing his comments, I think Red Bull has to do something since the situation doesn't seem to be fixing itself. I mean, I do acknowledge the huge talent the guy has, but I've never seen anyone in this sport to get that much leeway simply just for his talent. It's just that the current situation is not doing anyone any favors. Not to Max, not to the team and really not even the fans.

froze wrote:Max seemed already agitated in today's press conference. Seeing his comments, I think Red Bull has to do something since the situation doesn't seem to be fixing itself. I mean, I do acknowledge the huge talent the guy has, but I've never seen anyone in this sport to get that much leeway simply just for his talent. It's just that the current situation is not doing anyone any favors. Not to Max, not to the team and really not even the fans.

Is that really true?

Others have also had poor runs. In 2011 Hamilton had patch where he had incidents in four out of five races. 3 races before that he hit his team mate, the race before that he received two penalties for on track collisions. He survived.

mikeyg123 wrote:

froze wrote:Max seemed already agitated in today's press conference. Seeing his comments, I think Red Bull has to do something since the situation doesn't seem to be fixing itself. I mean, I do acknowledge the huge talent the guy has, but I've never seen anyone in this sport to get that much leeway simply just for his talent. It's just that the current situation is not doing anyone any favors. Not to Max, not to the team and really not even the fans.

Is that really true?

Others have also had poor runs. In 2011 Hamilton had patch where he had incidents in four out of five races. 3 races before that he hit his team mate, the race before that he received two penalties for on track collisions. He survived.

Exactly. He'll be fine. All top drivers have had bad streaks.

froze wrote:Max seemed already agitated in today's press conference. Seeing his comments, I think Red Bull has to do something since the situation doesn't seem to be fixing itself. I mean, I do acknowledge the huge talent the guy has, but I've never seen anyone in this sport to get that much leeway simply just for his talent. It's just that the current situation is not doing anyone any favors. Not to Max, not to the team and really not even the fans.

I liked the way he said he would headbutt anyone who asks me the same thing about my crashes!...