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Seems every few years the title changes

Used to be Vettel a fee years ago then Grosjean, now Verstappen? Rbr made a big deal about telling him no more mistakes but Verstappen is no longer a rookie, far too many mistakes ruining races atm.

Soon it will be a bashing thread!

He lost an easy win today. He just needed to make the overtakes in the normal places.

Exactly. He's not a rookie anymore. I'm glad it happened to be Vettel's race he ruined this time. But had he done it to Lewis, I'd been livid.

Ocon wrote:Exactly. He's not a rookie anymore. I'm glad it happened to be Vettel's race he ruined this time. But had he done it to Lewis, I'd been livid.

Its only a matter of time before he ruins a Hamilton race. Hamilton has had the good fortune to be on pole and out of his way most of his career but that doesn't seem as likely this year.

To be fair to Max though, Hamilton had a collision phase from Monza 2010 through to the end of 2011 and Vettel 2008-2010 so he isn't exactly in bad company, I just thought he would have got a handle on it. Its 5 big errors in 3 races. Hamilton and Vettel are doing about 2 per season these days.

-Australia race spin
-Bahrain qualifying spin
-Bahrain collision with Hamilton - puncture and DNF
-China - inpatient overtake and slide on Hamilton which gave Ricciardo the win
-China - Rammed Vettel in the side, again inpatient and cost himself 2nd.

Right now yes.

I think comparisons with Vettel and Hamilton are a little bit erroneous. He qualifies further back and has to be aggressive in order to get a good result. He's going to get involved in more incidents.

That being said he has had a terrible start to the season. He needs to put it behind him quickly. It was nice to hear him be contrite after the race for once.

mikeyg123 wrote:Right now yes.

I think comparisons with Vettel and Hamilton are a little bit erroneous. He qualifies further back and has to be aggressive in order to get a good result. He's going to get involved in more incidents.

That being said he has had a terrible start to the season. He needs to put it behind him quickly. It was nice to hear him be contrite after the race for once.

I honestly don't think it's erroneous to compare it to at least Hamilton's period full of crashes with Massa back in 2010/11. I believe Verstappen started no further back than Hamilton tended to back then.

I do think Verstappen has had a horrid start to the season with each mistake pilling more pressure upon himself, but I'm starting to see a different side of him in interviews. He now seems quicker to realise he's messed up as opposed to blaming others, and this will help him (I hope) in the long run to cut down on the errors when attempting overtakes. I'd rather have a Verstappen eager to attempt passing moves than a driver who always plays it safe like Bottas... it's the ruthless, killer instinct needed to go for the smallest of gaps that World Champions need.

Max needs to understand that you can't win a race on the first lap and you can't win a championship in a single race. He seems to just always go for it and he needs to understand that this isn't a video game. It's real life and all of those other drivers out there are going for the same thing you are. You have to respect your competition and understand that they have their own race too and you have no right to ruin it.

Max is undeniably talented but his decision making is still at rookie levels. I think this year will make him into a driver who is ready to be champion. The problem was that early in his career, he got away with a lot of driving that was over the limit; moving in braking zones and just general unsafe overtaking and defending. Those situations were often against Raikkonen; who is perhaps a bit more passive out there. Now he's tangling with Hamilton and Vettel and they are not moving aside for anyone. It doesn't mean you can't make the move. It just means you have to earn it. You have to be smart and line up a legitimate opportunity into the actual overtaking spots (like turn 6 or 14).

Max and Daniel were in control after that tire change. They had 20 laps to calmly pick off the three slower cars in front of them. Max behaved as though there were 5 laps left. Hanging it around the outside of Hamilton through that fast corner was just foolish. Basically just leaning on the new tire and trying to make a highlight reel overtake. Daniel showed how to handle an opportunity like the one they had in this race. He methodically went about his business out there. Max needs to learn from that. Max has all of the tools and talent that he needs but sometimes less is more. He needs to reign it in a little and start calculating risk/reward before some of these lunges.

These recent skirmishes of Verstappen all point out to him becoming impatient with Red Bull's inability to be constantly at the front with Mercedes & Ferrari. That's why he's taking risks not required at the time. If he keeps crashing every other race, his reputation in the form of peer respect will diminish.

F1-Dave wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:Right now yes.

I think comparisons with Vettel and Hamilton are a little bit erroneous. He qualifies further back and has to be aggressive in order to get a good result. He's going to get involved in more incidents.

That being said he has had a terrible start to the season. He needs to put it behind him quickly. It was nice to hear him be contrite after the race for once.

I honestly don't think it's erroneous to compare it to at least Hamilton's period full of crashes with Massa back in 2010/11. I believe Verstappen started no further back than Hamilton tended to back then.

I do think Verstappen has had a horrid start to the season with each mistake pilling more pressure upon himself, but I'm starting to see a different side of him in interviews. He now seems quicker to realise he's messed up as opposed to blaming others, and this will help him (I hope) in the long run to cut down on the errors when attempting overtakes. I'd rather have a Verstappen eager to attempt passing moves than a driver who always plays it safe like Bottas... it's the ruthless, killer instinct needed to go for the smallest of gaps that World Champions need.

Yes, I meant erroneous to compare them as they are now.

It must be night time in Australia. I expect this to be a multi-page thread when they´ve woken up

Covalent wrote:It must be night time in Australia. I expect this to be a multi-page thread when they´ve woken up

What does Australia have to do with it? Most Verstappen critics that I know (me included) aren't Australian. It's not just a bunch of angry Ricciardo fans, it's people who legitimately think Max is dangerous.

He is probably the most impatient driver on the grid. There was absolutely no need to try that banzai move around the outside of Turn 7. He was much faster than Lewis at that point, he would have passed him eventually. His divebomb on Vettel was even more unnecessary.

He is clearly very talented and fast, but his decision making needs work.

KingVoid wrote:He is probably the most impatient driver on the grid. There was absolutely no need to try that banzai move around the outside of Turn 7. He was much faster than Lewis at that point, he would have passed him eventually. His divebomb on Vettel was even more unnecessary.

He is clearly very talented and fast, but his decision making needs work.

You can't win a game of poker going all in on every hand - one of the few good points I've heard Crofty make.

What I will say is that last season, the only real mistake Verstappen made was Hungary. He is nowhere near as much of a liability as these first three races suggest. He’s just had a bad start to the season, nothing more.

People comparing him to Maldonado or asking for a race ban are going way over the top.

lamo wrote:

Ocon wrote:Exactly. He's not a rookie anymore. I'm glad it happened to be Vettel's race he ruined this time. But had he done it to Lewis, I'd been livid.

Its only a matter of time before he ruins a Hamilton race. Hamilton has had the good fortune to be on pole and out of his way most of his career but that doesn't seem as likely this year.

To be fair to Max though, Hamilton had a collision phase from Monza 2010 through to the end of 2011 and Vettel 2008-2010 so he isn't exactly in bad company, I just thought he would have got a handle on it. Its 5 big errors in 3 races. Hamilton and Vettel are doing about 2 per season these days.

-Australia race spin
-Bahrain qualifying spin
-Bahrain collision with Hamilton - puncture and DNF
-China - inpatient overtake and slide on Hamilton which gave Ricciardo the win
-China - Rammed Vettel in the side, again inpatient and cost himself 2nd.

Bahrain was a qualifying crash

mikeyg123 wrote:Right now yes.

I think comparisons with Vettel and Hamilton are a little bit erroneous. He qualifies further back and has to be aggressive in order to get a good result. He's going to get involved in more incidents.

That being said he has had a terrible start to the season. He needs to put it behind him quickly. It was nice to hear him be contrite after the race for once.

Yeah I think maybe the penny might be starting to drop perhaps?

KingVoid wrote:What I will say is that last season, the only real mistake Verstappen made was Hungary. He is nowhere near as much of a liability as these first three races suggest. He’s just had a bad start to the season, nothing more.

People comparing him to Maldonado or asking for a race ban are going way over the top.

He hit Massa and Ricciardo ruining his race both times, got involved in two 3 car tangles both of which put him out of the race, clipped and broke Vettel's front wing with his rear tyre but got away with that one, and then managed to clip both Vettel and Hamilton in the first corner at the start in Mexico again hitting a rear wing with his rear tyre but again got away with it and that is remembered as a great win for Verstappen.

There is no way you can blame Verstappen for the collision with Massa at Monza, unless you’re also willing to blame Hamilton for the crash in Bahrain a week ago.

Covalent wrote:It must be night time in Australia. I expect this to be a multi-page thread when they´ve woken up

The race was on at 4:10pm yesterday here in Australia. We spent last night celebrating that brilliant win . A win for the mechanics, the RB strategists whose quick thinking under the SC gave both drivers the opportunity to do something big, and for Dan, the driver who cleanly pulled off every overtake needed with precision.

My other half left for work at 5pm (24/7 rotating shift - in IT), and I texted him when he was still in the car (which reads him his texts) to say "Dan's overtaken everyone, and won!" His reply was "Sure, sure", until he arrived at work and found out it was true.

Personally, I'm tired of hearing that Max is "only learning". This is his 4th season in F1, many drivers haven't had even that length of time to prove themselves. Sure, he can be brilliant when the moves come off, but they don't seem to be lately and when it all goes wrong and he ruins another drivers race, it's not a good look. As recently as Saturday after Quali, he was still saying he doesn't need to change his driving style at all - but finally appears to have changed his mind...I wonder if the penny has dropped after Dan gave him a masterclass in how to take advantage of opportunities.
Horner had stressed to Max they needed a clean race, if only to get a measure on the performance of the car, so I imagine he's not overly impressed with his golden boy.

KingVoid wrote:There is no way you can blame Verstappen for the collision with Massa at Monza, unless you’re also willing to blame Hamilton for the crash in Bahrain a week ago.

How were they the same when Hamilton had backed off the throttle in a right hand corner whereas Vettel was negotiating a chicane, he got forced wide on the first part and then attempted to pass Massa coming out of the chicane which meant him getting on the loud pedal, Hamilton was off the loud pedal and had conceded position to Verstappen, what he wasn't prepared to do was drive off the track and potentially lose even more places.

Based on the last 12 months Max is little different to Maldonado when it comes to on-track incidents. He's obviously very quick, but lacks pretty fundamental race-craft. If he can't sort that out, and he shows little interest in doing so, he'll continue to be beaten by Ricciardo.

Perhaps it's to be expected when you throw an 18-year-old with very little experience into a top F1 seat. He's at most a couple of incidents from there being genuine reason to start considering he should sit out a race. F1 is supposed to showcase the top drivers in the world and it should not be acceptable for one of the supposed best around to keep crashing into others and receiving measly penalties.

Myopia wrote:Personally, I'm tired of hearing that Max is "only learning". This is his 4th season in F1, many drivers haven't had even that length of time to prove themselves.

Completely agree with you on that. Max is 20 going on 21 (slightly closer to 21); he's started 63 Grands Prix. Most importantly, however, where's the proof that he's learning? Last year I would have said that yes, he was getting into fewer incidents than before. But he's taken a sharp step back so far in 2018, so it calls into question the idea that he's actually learning from his mistakes at all.

Additionally, examples of more mature 20-year-old sportspeople are not hard to come by. He's not that young anymore. It says something that people are saying how he's finally willing to accept blame for an accident he was clearly to blame for. That's not a very high bar.

Exediron wrote:

Myopia wrote:Personally, I'm tired of hearing that Max is "only learning". This is his 4th season in F1, many drivers haven't had even that length of time to prove themselves.

Completely agree with you on that. Max is 20 going on 21 (slightly closer to 21); he's started 63 Grands Prix. Most importantly, however, where's the proof that he's learning? Last year I would have said that yes, he was getting into fewer incidents than before. But he's taken a sharp step back so far in 2018, so it calls into question the idea that he's actually learning from his mistakes at all.

Additionally, examples of more mature 20-year-old sportspeople are not hard to come by. He's not that young anymore. It says something that people are saying how he's finally willing to accept blame for an accident he was clearly to blame for. That's not a very high bar.

I think the fact that his claim to have seen engine telemetry after his Bahrain qualifying crash that showed an engine spike in power was categorically denied by Renault's Cyril Abiteboul reveals a lot about Verstappen's lack of ability to ever accept his own mistakes, and willingness to go so far as to lie to the world media to cover them up.

Toby. wrote:Based on the last 12 months Max is little different to Maldonado when it comes to on-track incidents. He's obviously very quick, but lacks pretty fundamental race-craft. If he can't sort that out, and he shows little interest in doing so, he'll continue to be beaten by Ricciardo.

Perhaps it's to be expected when you throw an 18-year-old with very little experience into a top F1 seat. He's at most a couple of incidents from there being genuine reason to start considering he should sit out a race. F1 is supposed to showcase the top drivers in the world and it should not be acceptable for one of the supposed best around to keep crashing into others and receiving measly penalties.

Accept he doesn't really keep crashing into others. It's two consecutive races. If you start giving people bans for that then you will have to ban a fair few drivers.

The problem is I think he genuinely believes his own hype, to a point where he tries daring moves (like on Hamilton) hoping he'll pull it off and everyone will be singing his praises after it.

His moves don't seem 'desperate' to me - more like an innate desire to impress. And it's not working at the moment.

The boy's got talent, sure, but there's more to F1 than just banzai moves.

mikeyg123 wrote:

Toby. wrote:Based on the last 12 months Max is little different to Maldonado when it comes to on-track incidents. He's obviously very quick, but lacks pretty fundamental race-craft. If he can't sort that out, and he shows little interest in doing so, he'll continue to be beaten by Ricciardo.

Perhaps it's to be expected when you throw an 18-year-old with very little experience into a top F1 seat. He's at most a couple of incidents from there being genuine reason to start considering he should sit out a race. F1 is supposed to showcase the top drivers in the world and it should not be acceptable for one of the supposed best around to keep crashing into others and receiving measly penalties.

Accept he doesn't really keep crashing into others. It's two consecutive races. If you start giving people bans for that then you will have to ban a fair few drivers.

Absolutely, I don't think he should get a ban after two races this year. Penalties for future incidents, though, should be handed out with consideration of previous form.

F1-Dave wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:Right now yes.

I think comparisons with Vettel and Hamilton are a little bit erroneous. He qualifies further back and has to be aggressive in order to get a good result. He's going to get involved in more incidents.

That being said he has had a terrible start to the season. He needs to put it behind him quickly. It was nice to hear him be contrite after the race for once.

I honestly don't think it's erroneous to compare it to at least Hamilton's period full of crashes with Massa back in 2010/11. I believe Verstappen started no further back than Hamilton tended to back then.

I do think Verstappen has had a horrid start to the season with each mistake pilling more pressure upon himself, but I'm starting to see a different side of him in interviews. He now seems quicker to realise he's messed up as opposed to blaming others, and this will help him (I hope) in the long run to cut down on the errors when attempting overtakes. I'd rather have a Verstappen eager to attempt passing moves than a driver who always plays it safe like Bottas... it's the ruthless, killer instinct needed to go for the smallest of gaps that World Champions need.

Well said.
He shows every sign he gets it and will learn

Toby wrote: I think the fact that his claim to have seen engine telemetry after his Bahrain qualifying crash that showed an engine spike in power was categorically denied by Renault's Cyril Abiteboul reveals a lot about Verstappen's lack of ability to ever accept his own mistakes, and willingness to go so far as to lie to the world media to cover them up.

I think the BIB is a bit dramatic. He wouldn't be the first person to not want to admit he's made a mistake, but that doesn't make him a villain. It might make him a bit dumb for not realizing that the truth would likely come out and embarrass him, but that's all.

I think the fact that Vettel didn't come on the radio screaming about what he'd done probably helped him to not get his back up and allow pride to dictate his response. He knows that the last two incidents have been 100% his fault, so I'd imagine he's deeply embarrassed about it. Time will tell how it shapes him

Zoue wrote:

Toby wrote: I think the fact that his claim to have seen engine telemetry after his Bahrain qualifying crash that showed an engine spike in power was categorically denied by Renault's Cyril Abiteboul reveals a lot about Verstappen's lack of ability to ever accept his own mistakes, and willingness to go so far as to lie to the world media to cover them up.

I think the BIB is a bit dramatic. He wouldn't be the first person to not want to admit he's made a mistake, but that doesn't make him a villain. It might make him a bit dumb for not realizing that the truth would likely come out and embarrass him, but that's all.

I think the fact that Vettel didn't come on the radio screaming about what he'd done probably helped him to not get his back up and allow pride to dictate his response. He knows that the last two incidents have been 100% his fault, so I'd imagine he's deeply embarrassed about it. Time will tell how it shapes him

“It wasn’t a stuck throttle,” Horner told Autosport.

“I think when he got high on the kerb there was an oscillation on the foot. It was fairly obvious.

“The gearshift around there has always been a bit lumpy, and I think it was a combination of that, pushing flat out, up on the kerb, oscillation with the foot.

“Put a lot of stuff together, that’s what happens. There’s nothing to read into it.” he added.

"The mapping for the throttle pedal is set quite aggressively for qualifying, but we'd had issues with this 'engine map' throughout the weekend." According to Verstappen, he was losing "four, four-and-a-half tenths" to teammate Daniel Ricciardo on the straights in this engine mode and Red Bull Racing struggled to get it properly calibrated for his car. "So in the end, I never ran more than one lap in 'performance mode'."

So it was an aggressive throttle map that he wasn't used to, combined with hitting the kerbs that caused the power surge.

Max's issue was just a young driver making a snap decision at the wrong time sometimes. Many times he gets it right, but when he gets it wrong it's usually not very good.
In china however, his timing was just a bit off and he didn't careen down into Vettel either. The contact was rather light and neither car was damaged really so his penalty was pretty fair. After the race he was asked about it and he owned up to it 100% which was great of him. He wasn't mad at anyone but recognized he made a boo boo.

UnlikeUday wrote:Soon it will be a bashing thread!

I was thinking this. I don't know why we bother with the whole crash kid. Every driver has a few off races. Max is under pressure, not helped by reliability and he has gained a reputation of going for it regardless.

F1 MERCENARY wrote:Max's issue was just a young driver making a snap decision at the wrong time sometimes. Many times he gets it right, but when he gets it wrong it's usually not very good.
In china however, his timing was just a bit off and he didn't careen down into Vettel either. The contact was rather light and neither car was damaged really so his penalty was pretty fair. After the race he was asked about it and he owned up to it 100% which was great of him. He wasn't mad at anyone but recognized he made a boo boo.

Ferrari did report damage to Vettel's car though.

F1 MERCENARY wrote:Max's issue was just a young driver making a snap decision at the wrong time sometimes. Many times he gets it right, but when he gets it wrong it's usually not very good.
In china however, his timing was just a bit off and he didn't careen down into Vettel either. The contact was rather light and neither car was damaged really so his penalty was pretty fair. After the race he was asked about it and he owned up to it 100% which was great of him. He wasn't mad at anyone but recognized he made a boo boo.

But the bottom line is he materially affected another driver's race. Not only did he punt him off, losing him a possible podium in the process, he did also damage his car - let's face it, there's no way Alonso would have overtaken him otherwise. So the consequences were fairly hefty

Zoue wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:Max's issue was just a young driver making a snap decision at the wrong time sometimes. Many times he gets it right, but when he gets it wrong it's usually not very good.
In china however, his timing was just a bit off and he didn't careen down into Vettel either. The contact was rather light and neither car was damaged really so his penalty was pretty fair. After the race he was asked about it and he owned up to it 100% which was great of him. He wasn't mad at anyone but recognized he made a boo boo.

But the bottom line is he materially affected another driver's race. Not only did he punt him off, losing him a possible podium in the process, he did also damage his car - let's face it, there's no way Alonso would have overtaken him otherwise. So the consequences were fairly hefty

Agree with you completely and I haven't seen any pictures or reports about how much damage was done to Seb's car but I don't think he did himself much of a favor spinning the wheels up as much as he did getting turned back around.

Sure, he had to do it to some extent to make the maneuver but he really gave those tires hell there for a second or two.

Maybe RB shouldn't have coughed up so much cash so quickly.

This, coupled with Horner saying that the team will be built around him is a lot to live up to at 20.

I think the pressure of Dan getting better results is putting huge mental pressure on him at the moment.

I like Max's style (to a certain extent) but do feel he has a mental weakness to overcome.

Exediron wrote:

Myopia wrote:Personally, I'm tired of hearing that Max is "only learning". This is his 4th season in F1, many drivers haven't had even that length of time to prove themselves.

Completely agree with you on that. Max is 20 going on 21 (slightly closer to 21); he's started 63 Grands Prix. Most importantly, however, where's the proof that he's learning? Last year I would have said that yes, he was getting into fewer incidents than before. But he's taken a sharp step back so far in 2018, so it calls into question the idea that he's actually learning from his mistakes at all.

Additionally, examples of more mature 20-year-old sportspeople are not hard to come by. He's not that young anymore. It says something that people are saying how he's finally willing to accept blame for an accident he was clearly to blame for. That's not a very high bar.

Like for like I would say that Ocon is more mature in his driving.

F1 MERCENARY wrote:Max's issue was just a young driver making a snap decision at the wrong time sometimes. Many times he gets it right, but when he gets it wrong it's usually not very good.
In china however, his timing was just a bit off and he didn't careen down into Vettel either. The contact was rather light and neither car was damaged really so his penalty was pretty fair. After the race he was asked about it and he owned up to it 100% which was great of him. He wasn't mad at anyone but recognized he made a boo boo.

Apparently Vettel's car was damaged and that's why he fell back.

pokerman wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:Max's issue was just a young driver making a snap decision at the wrong time sometimes. Many times he gets it right, but when he gets it wrong it's usually not very good.
In china however, his timing was just a bit off and he didn't careen down into Vettel either. The contact was rather light and neither car was damaged really so his penalty was pretty fair. After the race he was asked about it and he owned up to it 100% which was great of him. He wasn't mad at anyone but recognized he made a boo boo.

Apparently Vettel's car was damaged and that's why he fell back.

I think the only damage was to his tires; which he caused himself with that spin turn. Of course the only reason he had to do the spin turn was because Max spun him around...

Honestly, I think the penalty was warranted and it was sufficient. The biggest punishment that Max faced was seeing his teammate win from a worse position than he was in. Just a little bit of patience and Max would have won this race. Ultimately, he will probably learn these lessons in this manner; by losing out in the points and being forced to acknowledge that what he's doing isn't optimal.