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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 6:16 pm 
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On topic -

The pace here was clearly Red Bull > Ferrari > Mercedes.

However they ran so far way from the actual pace in the race it was kind of irrelevant. If Ocon had got round turn 1 first he would have won.


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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 6:37 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
That bit right there is the part I'm referring to. Dan isn't scrutinized the way Hamilton and Vettel are. Max is only coming under this level of scrutiny because of the egregious nature of his incidents and their frequency.

Going back to Daniel, he spun and lost a ton of time in the previous race in Barcelona but it basically went unnoticed. there was also that incident in Baku (which I personally put as 90% Max's fault) where he crashed out of the race. By comparison, the biggest mistakes that Hamilton or Vettel have made were a couple of lockups into turn 1 at Baku and yet we have people saying that they are performing below their norm while Dan should be driver of the year.


I had forgotten Barcelona.

It's not just about who makes the least mistakes though. It's about the actual performance. Like Ricciardo overtaking loads of guys to win in China whilst Hamilton in particular seems determined to try and win a WDC without having to try and overtake anyone. You also have to remember that due to the poor qualifying he does end up further n the pack so he is far more likely to be having incidents than someone who starts on pole.

The point about qualifying is valid. It is harder when you start further back but Daniel has also been out-qualified by his teammate on the season and has not started as far up as he could.

With regards to China, that is a circuit where passing is possible and the thing that made those passes happen was the strategic move by the team to pit for fresh tires under the safety car. Yes, Daniel executed there and impressively so but he did benefit there from strategy and a bit of luck. Even after the pit stops, Max should have won the race as he was ahead of Daniel on track and on the same faster tires.

For the record, I like Daniel and I think he's top shelf. I just notice how differently Hamilton and Vettel are scrutinized relative to everyone else. Their wins are basically written off as just doing what they're supposed to do or having the fastest car or whatever while their every mistake is emphasized. Daniel, on the other hand, has most of his mistakes ignored while his wins are cause for a parade (as though he didn't have the best car in this race).


I agree with you to a point. I do think if Vettel or Hamilton put in a drive like Ricciardo's in China or even managed the situation like he did today they would get rightly praised for it. It's been a weird season in some ways. Hamilton has one twice. Once was pure luck and the other was with a car far quicker than anyone else. Vettel has won twice and both of those wins have come about due to good fortune. Ricciardo has two wins, one where he didn't have the fastest car and had to pass a lot of cars to get it (I except fortune fell in his favour as well) and a win where he lost 100HP. There just better wins IMO.

And he really doesn't make a lot of mistakes.

I don't think Hamilton's car was miles ahead of the Red Bulls in Barcelona. Most of the quickest laps were done by Red Bull there. They just struggled with traffic and it was very difficult to overtake there. Basically both Red Bulls and Bottas got stuck behind the struggling Ferraris there while Hamilton waltzed off into the distance.

Vettel's win in Bahrain was not at all about luck either. He was quickest there both in qualifying and in the race. He was actually unlucky not to win in China and Baku as well. Daniel managed the situation well in Monaco but he was never really under much threat. The circuit protected him even with the engine issues. China was super impressive to watch but the reality is that he was 2 seconds faster than the guys in front of him after changing tires. It was really just about executing and he got the job done.

I agree that he doesn't make very many mistakes but you seem to be suggesting that he's pulling off miracles in an inferior car while the reality is that the car is only at a deficit in qualifying. In the races, they are often the quickest.


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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 6:41 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
That bit right there is the part I'm referring to. Dan isn't scrutinized the way Hamilton and Vettel are. Max is only coming under this level of scrutiny because of the egregious nature of his incidents and their frequency.

Going back to Daniel, he spun and lost a ton of time in the previous race in Barcelona but it basically went unnoticed. there was also that incident in Baku (which I personally put as 90% Max's fault) where he crashed out of the race. By comparison, the biggest mistakes that Hamilton or Vettel have made were a couple of lockups into turn 1 at Baku and yet we have people saying that they are performing below their norm while Dan should be driver of the year.


I had forgotten Barcelona.

It's not just about who makes the least mistakes though. It's about the actual performance. Like Ricciardo overtaking loads of guys to win in China whilst Hamilton in particular seems determined to try and win a WDC without having to try and overtake anyone. You also have to remember that due to the poor qualifying he does end up further n the pack so he is far more likely to be having incidents than someone who starts on pole.

The point about qualifying is valid. It is harder when you start further back but Daniel has also been out-qualified by his teammate on the season and has not started as far up as he could.

With regards to China, that is a circuit where passing is possible and the thing that made those passes happen was the strategic move by the team to pit for fresh tires under the safety car. Yes, Daniel executed there and impressively so but he did benefit there from strategy and a bit of luck. Even after the pit stops, Max should have won the race as he was ahead of Daniel on track and on the same faster tires.

For the record, I like Daniel and I think he's top shelf. I just notice how differently Hamilton and Vettel are scrutinized relative to everyone else. Their wins are basically written off as just doing what they're supposed to do or having the fastest car or whatever while their every mistake is emphasized. Daniel, on the other hand, has most of his mistakes ignored while his wins are cause for a parade (as though he didn't have the best car in this race).


I agree with you to a point. I do think if Vettel or Hamilton put in a drive like Ricciardo's in China or even managed the situation like he did today they would get rightly praised for it. It's been a weird season in some ways. Hamilton has one twice. Once was pure luck and the other was with a car far quicker than anyone else. Vettel has won twice and both of those wins have come about due to good fortune. Ricciardo has two wins, one where he didn't have the fastest car and had to pass a lot of cars to get it (I except fortune fell in his favour as well) and a win where he lost 100HP. There just better wins IMO.

And he really doesn't make a lot of mistakes.

I don't think Hamilton's car was miles ahead of the Red Bulls in Barcelona. Most of the quickest laps were done by Red Bull there. They just struggled with traffic and it was very difficult to overtake there. Basically both Red Bulls and Bottas got stuck behind the struggling Ferraris there while Hamilton waltzed off into the distance.

Vettel's win in Bahrain was not at all about luck either. He was quickest there both in qualifying and in the race. He was actually unlucky not to win in China and Baku as well. Daniel managed the situation well in Monaco but he was never really under much threat. The circuit protected him even with the engine issues. China was super impressive to watch but the reality is that he was 2 seconds faster than the guys in front of him after changing tires. It was really just about executing and he got the job done.

I agree that he doesn't make very many mistakes but you seem to be suggesting that he's pulling off miracles in an inferior car while the reality is that the car is only at a deficit in qualifying. In the races, they are often the quickest.


I think there's a bit of a chasm from what I've actually said to get to that. I think he has done more impressive things than Hamilton and Vettel and is doing well generally.

I don't think Red Bull is often quickest in races as well. Today was the only day you could say that with any degree of certainty.


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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 7:06 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
On a side note, I think Red Bull actually have a car that is every bit on the same level as the other two teams on Sundays. They are NOT at all at a disadvantage on Sundays. It's just qualy and reliability where they are behind. If not for all the DNFs, they could very much be in the fight for the championships. Unfortunately, some of those DNFs are not related to mechanical reliability. Dan and Max have been fortunate to avoid the kind of scrutiny that Vettel and Hamilton face...


Dan hasn't made any errors as far as I recall and Verstappen has been (rightly) constantly criticised. He certainly isn't escaping scrutiny.

I think out of the front runners Ricciardo has had the best season so far.

That bit right there is the part I'm referring to. Dan isn't scrutinized the way Hamilton and Vettel are. Max is only coming under this level of scrutiny because of the egregious nature of his incidents and their frequency.

Going back to Daniel, he spun and lost a ton of time in the previous race in Barcelona but it basically went unnoticed. there was also that incident in Baku (which I personally put as 90% Max's fault) where he crashed out of the race. By comparison, the biggest mistakes that Hamilton or Vettel have made were a couple of lockups into turn 1 at Baku and yet we have people saying that they are performing below their norm while Dan should be driver of the year.


I had forgotten Barcelona.

It's not just about who makes the least mistakes though. It's about the actual performance. Like Ricciardo overtaking loads of guys to win in China whilst Hamilton in particular seems determined to try and win a WDC without having to try and overtake anyone. You also have to remember that due to the poor qualifying he does end up further n the pack so he is far more likely to be having incidents than someone who starts on pole.

The point about qualifying is valid. It is harder when you start further back but Daniel has also been out-qualified by his teammate on the season and has not started as far up as he could.

With regards to China, that is a circuit where passing is possible and the thing that made those passes happen was the strategic move by the team to pit for fresh tires under the safety car. Yes, Daniel executed there and impressively so but he did benefit there from strategy and a bit of luck. Even after the pit stops, Max should have won the race as he was ahead of Daniel on track and on the same faster tires.

For the record, I like Daniel and I think he's top shelf. I just notice how differently Hamilton and Vettel are scrutinized relative to everyone else. Their wins are basically written off as just doing what they're supposed to do or having the fastest car or whatever while their every mistake is emphasized. Daniel, on the other hand, has most of his mistakes ignored while his wins are cause for a parade (as though he didn't have the best car in this race).


I am struggling to see why you find it hard that two 4x WDC's, both fighting for the championship (it's really between these two this year), are criticized more than Ricciardo. Ricciardo's spin also didn't come at a time when he was fighting at the front. Drivers are scrutinized within the context of the race, the championship, and their driving history. Criticism doesn't happen in a vacuum.


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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 7:10 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The form book in Monaco was a little funny. Certainly Red Bull were strongest here but Monaco is perhaps the most extreme one-off of the year. Ferrari also clearly quicker than Mercedes again so that's 4 rounds to 2 where Ferrari have had the upper hand. Canada will be an important litmus test. Most teams will introduce new (and potentially upgraded) power units for that race. It has been a Mercedes track for the most part these last few years and it has been a Lewis Hamilton track since 2007. If Ferrari are again quicker there then Mercedes will really be up against it this year.

I don't know that that's true, tbh. They were going a lot slower than ultimate pace, largely due to Ricciardo's problems I guess, which meant we never really got to see what thew cars could do. I was looking at Hamilton's times at one stage and they varied by more than half a second a lap. And he clearly wasn't happy with his tyre choice, either, but Bottas fairly flying on the Supers. I think it's quite hard to say which was the better car today between the Ferrari and Mercedes

No it's not hard to say at all. Mercedes were a solid couple of tenths back both in qualifying and the race. In fact the difference in the race seemed to be larger when comparing drivers on the same tires. Yes, Daniel restricted the pace for much of the race but when they did go flat out, Hamilton said quite clearly that he couldn't keep up with them. Ricciardo clearly held Vettel up in this race.

Hamilton also said they were going very slow at one point?


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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 7:12 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The form book in Monaco was a little funny. Certainly Red Bull were strongest here but Monaco is perhaps the most extreme one-off of the year. Ferrari also clearly quicker than Mercedes again so that's 4 rounds to 2 where Ferrari have had the upper hand. Canada will be an important litmus test. Most teams will introduce new (and potentially upgraded) power units for that race. It has been a Mercedes track for the most part these last few years and it has been a Lewis Hamilton track since 2007. If Ferrari are again quicker there then Mercedes will really be up against it this year.

I don't know that that's true, tbh. They were going a lot slower than ultimate pace, largely due to Ricciardo's problems I guess, which meant we never really got to see what thew cars could do. I was looking at Hamilton's times at one stage and they varied by more than half a second a lap. And he clearly wasn't happy with his tyre choice, either, but Bottas fairly flying on the Supers. I think it's quite hard to say which was the better car today between the Ferrari and Mercedes


Really doesn't surprise me :lol: Quite obvious the Ferrari was the better car at Monaco, by how much I'm not sure and whether it was tyres, pace or a mixture of both it doesn't matter, it was the better car to have over the weekend.

You'll note I said today. The Ferrari looked to be slightly quicker in qualifying, but I just don't think we have enough data to judge today's relative pace

edit: and a quote from Lewis himself:

"We were probably just cruising around from lap six, maybe," he said. "Literally cruising. So it wasn’t really racing.

http://www.f1i.com/news/305436-hamilton-just-cruising-monaco.html


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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 12:43 am 
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AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Well as it happens 3rd fastest isn't exactly serious quick, now the Red Bull was serious quick.


Looks really hard to support a team with such a bad car, sorry for you, they've really struggled the last years.

3rd fastest car at Monaco, keep up.

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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 12:51 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
On a side note, I think Red Bull actually have a car that is every bit on the same level as the other two teams on Sundays. They are NOT at all at a disadvantage on Sundays. It's just qualy and reliability where they are behind. If not for all the DNFs, they could very much be in the fight for the championships. Unfortunately, some of those DNFs are not related to mechanical reliability. Dan and Max have been fortunate to avoid the kind of scrutiny that Vettel and Hamilton face...


Dan hasn't made any errors as far as I recall and Verstappen has been (rightly) constantly criticised. He certainly isn't escaping scrutiny.

I think out of the front runners Ricciardo has had the best season so far.

That bit right there is the part I'm referring to. Dan isn't scrutinized the way Hamilton and Vettel are. Max is only coming under this level of scrutiny because of the egregious nature of his incidents and their frequency.

Going back to Daniel, he spun and lost a ton of time in the previous race in Barcelona but it basically went unnoticed. there was also that incident in Baku (which I personally put as 90% Max's fault) where he crashed out of the race. By comparison, the biggest mistakes that Hamilton or Vettel have made were a couple of lockups into turn 1 at Baku and yet we have people saying that they are performing below their norm while Dan should be driver of the year.


I had forgotten Barcelona.

It's not just about who makes the least mistakes though. It's about the actual performance. Like Ricciardo overtaking loads of guys to win in China whilst Hamilton in particular seems determined to try and win a WDC without having to try and overtake anyone. You also have to remember that due to the poor qualifying he does end up further n the pack so he is far more likely to be having incidents than someone who starts on pole.

Has Hamilton been poor because he's been out qualified by Bottas a couple of times while Ricciardo being out qualified by Verstappen sort of gets over looked?

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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 12:55 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Dan hasn't made any errors as far as I recall and Verstappen has been (rightly) constantly criticised. He certainly isn't escaping scrutiny.

I think out of the front runners Ricciardo has had the best season so far.

That bit right there is the part I'm referring to. Dan isn't scrutinized the way Hamilton and Vettel are. Max is only coming under this level of scrutiny because of the egregious nature of his incidents and their frequency.

Going back to Daniel, he spun and lost a ton of time in the previous race in Barcelona but it basically went unnoticed. there was also that incident in Baku (which I personally put as 90% Max's fault) where he crashed out of the race. By comparison, the biggest mistakes that Hamilton or Vettel have made were a couple of lockups into turn 1 at Baku and yet we have people saying that they are performing below their norm while Dan should be driver of the year.


I had forgotten Barcelona.

It's not just about who makes the least mistakes though. It's about the actual performance. Like Ricciardo overtaking loads of guys to win in China whilst Hamilton in particular seems determined to try and win a WDC without having to try and overtake anyone. You also have to remember that due to the poor qualifying he does end up further n the pack so he is far more likely to be having incidents than someone who starts on pole.

The point about qualifying is valid. It is harder when you start further back but Daniel has also been out-qualified by his teammate on the season and has not started as far up as he could.

With regards to China, that is a circuit where passing is possible and the thing that made those passes happen was the strategic move by the team to pit for fresh tires under the safety car. Yes, Daniel executed there and impressively so but he did benefit there from strategy and a bit of luck. Even after the pit stops, Max should have won the race as he was ahead of Daniel on track and on the same faster tires.

For the record, I like Daniel and I think he's top shelf. I just notice how differently Hamilton and Vettel are scrutinized relative to everyone else. Their wins are basically written off as just doing what they're supposed to do or having the fastest car or whatever while their every mistake is emphasized. Daniel, on the other hand, has most of his mistakes ignored while his wins are cause for a parade (as though he didn't have the best car in this race).


I agree with you to a point. I do think if Vettel or Hamilton put in a drive like Ricciardo's in China or even managed the situation like he did today they would get rightly praised for it. It's been a weird season in some ways. Hamilton has one twice. Once was pure luck and the other was with a car far quicker than anyone else. Vettel has won twice and both of those wins have come about due to good fortune. Ricciardo has two wins, one where he didn't have the fastest car and had to pass a lot of cars to get it (I except fortune fell in his favour as well) and a win where he lost 100HP. There just better wins IMO.

And he really doesn't make a lot of mistakes.

Ricciardo was in the fastest car after the SC in China, also the fastest car in Monaco which gave him the track position to win the race.

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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 1:49 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
On a side note, I think Red Bull actually have a car that is every bit on the same level as the other two teams on Sundays. They are NOT at all at a disadvantage on Sundays. It's just qualy and reliability where they are behind. If not for all the DNFs, they could very much be in the fight for the championships. Unfortunately, some of those DNFs are not related to mechanical reliability. Dan and Max have been fortunate to avoid the kind of scrutiny that Vettel and Hamilton face...


Dan hasn't made any errors as far as I recall and Verstappen has been (rightly) constantly criticised. He certainly isn't escaping scrutiny.

I think out of the front runners Ricciardo has had the best season so far.

That bit right there is the part I'm referring to. Dan isn't scrutinized the way Hamilton and Vettel are. Max is only coming under this level of scrutiny because of the egregious nature of his incidents and their frequency.

Going back to Daniel, he spun and lost a ton of time in the previous race in Barcelona but it basically went unnoticed. there was also that incident in Baku (which I personally put as 90% Max's fault) where he crashed out of the race. By comparison, the biggest mistakes that Hamilton or Vettel have made were a couple of lockups into turn 1 at Baku and yet we have people saying that they are performing below their norm while Dan should be driver of the year.


I had forgotten Barcelona.

It's not just about who makes the least mistakes though. It's about the actual performance. Like Ricciardo overtaking loads of guys to win in China whilst Hamilton in particular seems determined to try and win a WDC without having to try and overtake anyone. You also have to remember that due to the poor qualifying he does end up further n the pack so he is far more likely to be having incidents than someone who starts on pole.

Has Hamilton been poor because he's been out qualified by Bottas a couple of times while Ricciardo being out qualified by Verstappen sort of gets over looked?

Because Verstappen is wildly regarded as a faster driver than Bottas.


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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 1:52 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
On a side note, I think Red Bull actually have a car that is every bit on the same level as the other two teams on Sundays. They are NOT at all at a disadvantage on Sundays. It's just qualy and reliability where they are behind. If not for all the DNFs, they could very much be in the fight for the championships. Unfortunately, some of those DNFs are not related to mechanical reliability. Dan and Max have been fortunate to avoid the kind of scrutiny that Vettel and Hamilton face...

Red Bull is still the third best car even on race day, it’s just closer than it is in qualifying.

In China, Vettel and Bottas were comfortably quicker than Verstappen before the SC. In Baku Red Bull were 20 seconds down in 20 laps.

I agree with mikey that Ricciardo has been the best driver of the top 6.


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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 7:01 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Ricciardo was in the fastest car after the SC in China, also the fastest car in Monaco which gave him the track position to win the race.


I'm not denying either of those things.


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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 7:04 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
On a side note, I think Red Bull actually have a car that is every bit on the same level as the other two teams on Sundays. They are NOT at all at a disadvantage on Sundays. It's just qualy and reliability where they are behind. If not for all the DNFs, they could very much be in the fight for the championships. Unfortunately, some of those DNFs are not related to mechanical reliability. Dan and Max have been fortunate to avoid the kind of scrutiny that Vettel and Hamilton face...


Dan hasn't made any errors as far as I recall and Verstappen has been (rightly) constantly criticised. He certainly isn't escaping scrutiny.

I think out of the front runners Ricciardo has had the best season so far.

That bit right there is the part I'm referring to. Dan isn't scrutinized the way Hamilton and Vettel are. Max is only coming under this level of scrutiny because of the egregious nature of his incidents and their frequency.

Going back to Daniel, he spun and lost a ton of time in the previous race in Barcelona but it basically went unnoticed. there was also that incident in Baku (which I personally put as 90% Max's fault) where he crashed out of the race. By comparison, the biggest mistakes that Hamilton or Vettel have made were a couple of lockups into turn 1 at Baku and yet we have people saying that they are performing below their norm while Dan should be driver of the year.


I had forgotten Barcelona.

It's not just about who makes the least mistakes though. It's about the actual performance. Like Ricciardo overtaking loads of guys to win in China whilst Hamilton in particular seems determined to try and win a WDC without having to try and overtake anyone. You also have to remember that due to the poor qualifying he does end up further n the pack so he is far more likely to be having incidents than someone who starts on pole.

Has Hamilton been poor because he's been out qualified by Bottas a couple of times while Ricciardo being out qualified by Verstappen sort of gets over looked?


I do think getting out qualified by Bottas is worse than getting out qualified by Verstappen. If you have two very quick drivers the qualifying battle is unlikely to be one sided.


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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 12:12 pm 
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No idea to judge anything than qualification which looks quite close, Red Bull - > Ferrari -> Mercedes.

Still waiting for Merc to get control off their tyres, meanwhile the other have to grab whatever is on the table.
After that we will have Aus, Spain all over, no other team have had such domination so far.


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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 12:22 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Dan hasn't made any errors as far as I recall and Verstappen has been (rightly) constantly criticised. He certainly isn't escaping scrutiny.

I think out of the front runners Ricciardo has had the best season so far.

That bit right there is the part I'm referring to. Dan isn't scrutinized the way Hamilton and Vettel are. Max is only coming under this level of scrutiny because of the egregious nature of his incidents and their frequency.

Going back to Daniel, he spun and lost a ton of time in the previous race in Barcelona but it basically went unnoticed. there was also that incident in Baku (which I personally put as 90% Max's fault) where he crashed out of the race. By comparison, the biggest mistakes that Hamilton or Vettel have made were a couple of lockups into turn 1 at Baku and yet we have people saying that they are performing below their norm while Dan should be driver of the year.


I had forgotten Barcelona.

It's not just about who makes the least mistakes though. It's about the actual performance. Like Ricciardo overtaking loads of guys to win in China whilst Hamilton in particular seems determined to try and win a WDC without having to try and overtake anyone. You also have to remember that due to the poor qualifying he does end up further n the pack so he is far more likely to be having incidents than someone who starts on pole.

Has Hamilton been poor because he's been out qualified by Bottas a couple of times while Ricciardo being out qualified by Verstappen sort of gets over looked?

Because Verstappen is wildly regarded as a faster driver than Bottas.

Yes I'm sure Bottas would get out qualified by Verstappen like Ricciardo is, would Hamilton?

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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 12:26 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Dan hasn't made any errors as far as I recall and Verstappen has been (rightly) constantly criticised. He certainly isn't escaping scrutiny.

I think out of the front runners Ricciardo has had the best season so far.

That bit right there is the part I'm referring to. Dan isn't scrutinized the way Hamilton and Vettel are. Max is only coming under this level of scrutiny because of the egregious nature of his incidents and their frequency.

Going back to Daniel, he spun and lost a ton of time in the previous race in Barcelona but it basically went unnoticed. there was also that incident in Baku (which I personally put as 90% Max's fault) where he crashed out of the race. By comparison, the biggest mistakes that Hamilton or Vettel have made were a couple of lockups into turn 1 at Baku and yet we have people saying that they are performing below their norm while Dan should be driver of the year.


I had forgotten Barcelona.

It's not just about who makes the least mistakes though. It's about the actual performance. Like Ricciardo overtaking loads of guys to win in China whilst Hamilton in particular seems determined to try and win a WDC without having to try and overtake anyone. You also have to remember that due to the poor qualifying he does end up further n the pack so he is far more likely to be having incidents than someone who starts on pole.

Has Hamilton been poor because he's been out qualified by Bottas a couple of times while Ricciardo being out qualified by Verstappen sort of gets over looked?


I do think getting out qualified by Bottas is worse than getting out qualified by Verstappen. If you have two very quick drivers the qualifying battle is unlikely to be one sided.

Ricciardo gets out qualified by Verstappen more often than Hamilton gets out qualified by Bottas, the 2 times that Bottas out qualified Hamilton was less than a tenth of a second, I'm not sure how you differentiate that Ricciardo has been qualifying better than Hamilton?

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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 12:28 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
No idea to judge anything than qualification which looks quite close, Red Bull - > Ferrari -> Mercedes.

Still waiting for Merc to get control off their tyres, meanwhile the other have to grab whatever is on the table.
After that we will have Aus, Spain all over, no other team have had such domination so far.

Indeed which is far from Mercedes being this supposed consistent car.

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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 12:35 pm 
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pokerman wrote:

Yes I'm sure Bottas would get out qualified by Verstappen like Ricciardo is, would Hamilton?

If you believe Hamilton is faster than Ricciardo, and Verstappen is faster than Bottas then it would stand to reason that Hamilton wouldn’t have it all his own way against Max.

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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 12:57 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
pokerman wrote:

Yes I'm sure Bottas would get out qualified by Verstappen like Ricciardo is, would Hamilton?

If you believe Hamilton is faster than Ricciardo, and Verstappen is faster than Bottas then it would stand to reason that Hamilton wouldn’t have it all his own way against Max.

That's not the argument being made.

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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 1:34 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
No idea to judge anything than qualification which looks quite close, Red Bull - > Ferrari -> Mercedes.

Still waiting for Merc to get control off their tyres, meanwhile the other have to grab whatever is on the table.
After that we will have Aus, Spain all over, no other team have had such domination so far.

Indeed which is far from Mercedes being this supposed consistent car.


There is no car out there that is consistent right now, but Merc certainly looks to have the most speed to unlock.
No other car has dominated any race as they have so far.


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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 6:13 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Yes I'm sure Bottas would get out qualified by Verstappen like Ricciardo is, would Hamilton?

There is no way to know for certain how fast Ricciardo is relative to Hamilton. For all we know, Ricciardo could be as fast as Hamilton and Verstappen might be a tenth quicker.

The only proper cross comparison we have is Vettel-Raikkonen-Alonso. When you compare how both stacked relative to Raikkonen, turns out that Alonso is a slightly better driver than Vettel. This means that Hamilton is also a slightly better driver than Vettel. Ricciardo is a significantly better driver than Vettel, so Ricciardo must be better than Hamilton.

The question is whether or not Vettel's 2014 was a glitch in the matrix.


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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 11:27 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Yes I'm sure Bottas would get out qualified by Verstappen like Ricciardo is, would Hamilton?

There is no way to know for certain how fast Ricciardo is relative to Hamilton. For all we know, Ricciardo could be as fast as Hamilton and Verstappen might be a tenth quicker.

The only proper cross comparison we have is Vettel-Raikkonen-Alonso. When you compare how both stacked relative to Raikkonen, turns out that Alonso is a slightly better driver than Vettel. This means that Hamilton is also a slightly better driver than Vettel. Ricciardo is a significantly better driver than Vettel, so Ricciardo must be better than Hamilton.

The question is whether or not Vettel's 2014 was a glitch in the matrix.

It is a bit tenuous when only using 1 year match ups, my gut would say that 2014 was a glitch.

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 2:43 am 
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This is why I really, really want Ricciardo to join Ferrari in 2019. I want to see another matchup between him and Vettel.

IMO the best drivers this season have been:

1. Alonso
2. Ricciardo
3. Hamilton
4. Hulkenberg
5. Vettel


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 6:09 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
This is why I really, really want Ricciardo to join Ferrari in 2019. I want to see another matchup between him and Vettel.

IMO the best drivers this season have been:

1. Alonso
2. Ricciardo
3. Hamilton
4. Hulkenberg
5. Vettel


I would put Vettel behind Alonso, and would have loved to get LeClerc in there to..


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 6:18 am 
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I'd swap Dan and Lewis and Hulk and Seb and drop Hulk for Leclerc I think.

Bottas,K-Mag,Hulk and maybe Gasly could all put up a decent enough argument for that last spot imo. Can't believe I'm leaving off the Force India boys, they've each had at least one great race but I can't say they've stood out that often compared to the above.

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 6:23 am 
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Oh and I'm probably being a bit harsh on Kimi, he's had no luck but is driving the best I've seen him since early 2013 so he probably should be in the mix for that spot too.

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 6:23 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Has Hamilton been poor because he's been out qualified by Bottas a couple of times while Ricciardo being out qualified by Verstappen sort of gets over looked?

I do think getting out qualified by Bottas is worse than getting out qualified by Verstappen. If you have two very quick drivers the qualifying battle is unlikely to be one sided.

Ricciardo gets out qualified by Verstappen more often than Hamilton gets out qualified by Bottas, the 2 times that Bottas out qualified Hamilton was less than a tenth of a second, I'm not sure how you differentiate that Ricciardo has been qualifying better than Hamilton?

Here's how:

Ricciardo has gone 1-3 in qualifying against Verstappen (although one of them was really about as close to a tie as you can get), with an average gap of +0.086. Two qualifying sessions where Max crashed or did not take part are excluded.

Hamilton has gone 3-2 against Bottas, with an average gap of -0.017. One qualifying session where Bottas crashed is excluded.

Combining Hamilton's advantage over Bottas (0.017) with Ricciardo's average deficit to Verstappen (0.086), you get an unadjusted difference of 0.103 seconds. If their teammates are equal, Hamilton is outperforming Ricciardo by an average of just over a tenth in qualifying.

However, if Bottas is anything more than 0.103 seconds slower than Verstappen, Ricciardo is outperforming Hamilton. I'll let you decide: do you think Bottas is within a tenth of Max?

And that aside, do you really feel like less than 2 hundredths of a second is the sort of average gap Hamilton should be having over a driver of Bottas' caliber?

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 10:23 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
This is why I really, really want Ricciardo to join Ferrari in 2019. I want to see another matchup between him and Vettel.

IMO the best drivers this season have been:

1. Alonso
2. Ricciardo
3. Hamilton
4. Hulkenberg
5. Vettel


What has Alonso done exactly? Beating drivers like Ocon and co? ofcourse he's gonna look good in the midfield, as he is not racing against people of the same calibre.

Ricciardo asides of Max deciding to self destruct he has been poor, considering both wins he has so far were nailed on for Max, the same guy who spun after a virtual safety car.

Hamilton has been poor this season asides from Austrailia, Spain and Monaco.

Hulkenberg I don't even know where to start with this.

Vettel asides the lock up into turn one at Baku, I can't think of any other mistake he has made this season only the SC coming out at the wrong time for him and Max has stopped him from leading the championship.


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 10:47 am 
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Rockie wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
This is why I really, really want Ricciardo to join Ferrari in 2019. I want to see another matchup between him and Vettel.

IMO the best drivers this season have been:

1. Alonso
2. Ricciardo
3. Hamilton
4. Hulkenberg
5. Vettel


What has Alonso done exactly? Beating drivers like Ocon and co? ofcourse he's gonna look good in the midfield, as he is not racing against people of the same calibre.

Ricciardo asides of Max deciding to self destruct he has been poor, considering both wins he has so far were nailed on for Max, the same guy who spun after a virtual safety car.

Hamilton has been poor this season asides from Austrailia, Spain and Monaco.

Hulkenberg I don't even know where to start with this.

Vettel asides the lock up into turn one at Baku, I can't think of any other mistake he has made this season only the SC coming out at the wrong time for him and Max has stopped him from leading the championship.


IMO, Vettel was relatively poor in Australia - outpaced by Räikkönen for most of the weekend. And of course, the SC/VSC working in his favour there.
Pretty sure Vettel made a mistake in China, going into the pits. This (along with a combination of other variables) contributed to Bottas being able to undercut Vettel.


Last edited by SR1 on Tue May 29, 2018 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 11:03 am 
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SR1 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
This is why I really, really want Ricciardo to join Ferrari in 2019. I want to see another matchup between him and Vettel.

IMO the best drivers this season have been:

1. Alonso
2. Ricciardo
3. Hamilton
4. Hulkenberg
5. Vettel


What has Alonso done exactly? Beating drivers like Ocon and co? ofcourse he's gonna look good in the midfield, as he is not racing against people of the same calibre.

Ricciardo asides of Max deciding to self destruct he has been poor, considering both wins he has so far were nailed on for Max, the same guy who spun after a virtual safety car.

Hamilton has been poor this season asides from Austrailia, Spain and Monaco.

Hulkenberg I don't even know where to start with this.

Vettel asides the lock up into turn one at Baku, I can't think of any other mistake he has made this season only the SC coming out at the wrong time for him and Max has stopped him from leading the championship.


IMO, Vettel was relatively poor in Australia - outpaced by Räikkönen for most of the weekend. Pretty sure Vettel made a mistake in China, going into the pits. This (along with a combination of other variables) contributed to Bottas being able to undercut Vettel.


Different people have different ideas as to what is required to be ranked as a driver. Perhaps it is not just lack of mistakes required? I know of a grandmother who has made no mistakes so far this year... not even one! But she is not exactly quick and not very impressive as far as overtaking goes. Perhaps some want a balance of mistakes, speed and overtakes may be all required to donkeys a driver?


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 11:12 am 
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Rockie wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
This is why I really, really want Ricciardo to join Ferrari in 2019. I want to see another matchup between him and Vettel.

IMO the best drivers this season have been:

1. Alonso
2. Ricciardo
3. Hamilton
4. Hulkenberg
5. Vettel


What has Alonso done exactly? Beating drivers like Ocon and co? ofcourse he's gonna look good in the midfield, as he is not racing against people of the same calibre.

Ricciardo asides of Max deciding to self destruct he has been poor, considering both wins he has so far were nailed on for Max, the same guy who spun after a virtual safety car.

Hamilton has been poor this season asides from Austrailia, Spain and Monaco.

Hulkenberg I don't even know where to start with this.

Vettel asides the lock up into turn one at Baku, I can't think of any other mistake he has made this season only the SC coming out at the wrong time for him and Max has stopped him from leading the championship.


Yep you're correct. Everyone's been terrible but Vettel.


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 11:36 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
This is why I really, really want Ricciardo to join Ferrari in 2019. I want to see another matchup between him and Vettel.

IMO the best drivers this season have been:

1. Alonso
2. Ricciardo
3. Hamilton
4. Hulkenberg
5. Vettel

Yeah me too so I can join the dots a bit better.

Regarding Alonso I ask how fair are things within McLaren with talk of him receiving preferential treatment, Vandoorne states that the gap you see between him and Alonso is not the true gap.

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 11:37 am 
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Rockie wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
This is why I really, really want Ricciardo to join Ferrari in 2019. I want to see another matchup between him and Vettel.

IMO the best drivers this season have been:

1. Alonso
2. Ricciardo
3. Hamilton
4. Hulkenberg
5. Vettel


What has Alonso done exactly? Beating drivers like Ocon and co? ofcourse he's gonna look good in the midfield, as he is not racing against people of the same calibre.

Ricciardo asides of Max deciding to self destruct he has been poor, considering both wins he has so far were nailed on for Max, the same guy who spun after a virtual safety car.

Hamilton has been poor this season asides from Austrailia, Spain and Monaco.

Hulkenberg I don't even know where to start with this.

Vettel asides the lock up into turn one at Baku, I can't think of any other mistake he has made this season only the SC coming out at the wrong time for him and Max has stopped him from leading the championship.


Alonso made a mistake in S1 in Australia Q2. And that's it, the rest he's either maximised his results on both days or looked set too and had arguably the race of the year so far in Baku.

Dan was nailed on for Monaco whatever Max did, he was quicker all weekend and he's been better in every race bar Spain and it's 3-3 in quali. You can't claim Max was nailed on for China as if he wasn't the one that blew it. Also in the argument for race and even weekend of the year for Monaco because of how he dealt with his issue.

Lewis has had one bad weekend where he was subpar, China, but apart from that he's been either solid (Bahrain,Monaco) or exceptional (Australia and Spain). Baku had an error but he had the pace all weekend as well. Hasn't thrown anything away, thanks in part to Bottas's puncture but still it's better than everyone else bar Alonso in terms of maximising results. Spain is another of the drives that are in contention for race/weekend of the year.

Hulk was doing what Alonso did until Baku but I think I'd have someone else there now as well.

Seb was poor in Australia both days and made a very costly error in Baku. He's probably the only one on the list without a standout drive this year as well but has been both unlucky with SC's and lucky. Just a bit meh so far this year although could well have had his standout drive in Baku but blew it.

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 11:37 am 
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AnRs wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
This is why I really, really want Ricciardo to join Ferrari in 2019. I want to see another matchup between him and Vettel.

IMO the best drivers this season have been:

1. Alonso
2. Ricciardo
3. Hamilton
4. Hulkenberg
5. Vettel


I would put Vettel behind Alonso, and would have loved to get LeClerc in there to..

Yes I would too but it's probably less than a tenth.

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 11:39 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
I'd swap Dan and Lewis and Hulk and Seb and drop Hulk for Leclerc I think.

Bottas,K-Mag,Hulk and maybe Gasly could all put up a decent enough argument for that last spot imo. Can't believe I'm leaving off the Force India boys, they've each had at least one great race but I can't say they've stood out that often compared to the above.

I think with Force India you're perhaps influenced by last seasons performance and maybe blaming the drivers this year and not the car?

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 11:41 am 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Has Hamilton been poor because he's been out qualified by Bottas a couple of times while Ricciardo being out qualified by Verstappen sort of gets over looked?

I do think getting out qualified by Bottas is worse than getting out qualified by Verstappen. If you have two very quick drivers the qualifying battle is unlikely to be one sided.

Ricciardo gets out qualified by Verstappen more often than Hamilton gets out qualified by Bottas, the 2 times that Bottas out qualified Hamilton was less than a tenth of a second, I'm not sure how you differentiate that Ricciardo has been qualifying better than Hamilton?

Here's how:

Ricciardo has gone 1-3 in qualifying against Verstappen (although one of them was really about as close to a tie as you can get), with an average gap of +0.086. Two qualifying sessions where Max crashed or did not take part are excluded.

Hamilton has gone 3-2 against Bottas, with an average gap of -0.017. One qualifying session where Bottas crashed is excluded.

Combining Hamilton's advantage over Bottas (0.017) with Ricciardo's average deficit to Verstappen (0.086), you get an unadjusted difference of 0.103 seconds. If their teammates are equal, Hamilton is outperforming Ricciardo by an average of just over a tenth in qualifying.

However, if Bottas is anything more than 0.103 seconds slower than Verstappen, Ricciardo is outperforming Hamilton. I'll let you decide: do you think Bottas is within a tenth of Max?

And that aside, do you really feel like less than 2 hundredths of a second is the sort of average gap Hamilton should be having over a driver of Bottas' caliber?

Hamilton's gap is 0.05s.

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 11:43 am 
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Rockie wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
This is why I really, really want Ricciardo to join Ferrari in 2019. I want to see another matchup between him and Vettel.

IMO the best drivers this season have been:

1. Alonso
2. Ricciardo
3. Hamilton
4. Hulkenberg
5. Vettel


What has Alonso done exactly? Beating drivers like Ocon and co? ofcourse he's gonna look good in the midfield, as he is not racing against people of the same calibre.

Ricciardo asides of Max deciding to self destruct he has been poor, considering both wins he has so far were nailed on for Max, the same guy who spun after a virtual safety car.

Hamilton has been poor this season asides from Austrailia, Spain and Monaco.

Hulkenberg I don't even know where to start with this.

Vettel asides the lock up into turn one at Baku, I can't think of any other mistake he has made this season only the SC coming out at the wrong time for him and Max has stopped him from leading the championship.

Vettel was getting beat by Kimi in Australia before he lucked in with the VSC.

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 11:46 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I'd swap Dan and Lewis and Hulk and Seb and drop Hulk for Leclerc I think.

Bottas,K-Mag,Hulk and maybe Gasly could all put up a decent enough argument for that last spot imo. Can't believe I'm leaving off the Force India boys, they've each had at least one great race but I can't say they've stood out that often compared to the above.

I think with Force India you're perhaps influenced by last seasons performance and maybe blaming the drivers this year and not the car?


I've just not noticed them beyond Baku and Monaco tbh.

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 11:51 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I'd swap Dan and Lewis and Hulk and Seb and drop Hulk for Leclerc I think.

Bottas,K-Mag,Hulk and maybe Gasly could all put up a decent enough argument for that last spot imo. Can't believe I'm leaving off the Force India boys, they've each had at least one great race but I can't say they've stood out that often compared to the above.

I think with Force India you're perhaps influenced by last seasons performance and maybe blaming the drivers this year and not the car?


I've just not noticed them beyond Baku and Monaco tbh.

Which happen too be 2 outstanding results, the car's simply not as good as last year.

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 11:56 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I'd swap Dan and Lewis and Hulk and Seb and drop Hulk for Leclerc I think.

Bottas,K-Mag,Hulk and maybe Gasly could all put up a decent enough argument for that last spot imo. Can't believe I'm leaving off the Force India boys, they've each had at least one great race but I can't say they've stood out that often compared to the above.

I think with Force India you're perhaps influenced by last seasons performance and maybe blaming the drivers this year and not the car?


I've just not noticed them beyond Baku and Monaco tbh.

Which happen too be 2 outstanding results, the car's simply not as good as last year.


No argument there but the others have more than one outstanding result. The midfield is close enough that outstanding results are possible like they both have showed.

Plus the car has been capable in China of finishing ahead of Alonso for example but he ran rings round them so it's not always been the cars fault.

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