[Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

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pokerman
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by pokerman »

AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote: Backed up by several respected sources whereas in fact what you say is merely just your opinion.
If you where as confident in that that you try to make it you wouldn't jump at anything without even reading first.
You will dismiss anything you read that doesn't back up your opinion so that's ok.
Give me something to read to convince me.
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by Mort Canard »

After the US Gran Prix in Austin Helmut Marko declared, “Next year with the Honda engine I think we can fight for the world championship, the project is really very good and I’m absolutely serious.”

Fight for the world championship in MotoGP??? ...in Indycar??? :lol:
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by sandman1347 »

Mort Canard wrote:After the US Gran Prix in Austin Helmut Marko declared, “Next year with the Honda engine I think we can fight for the world championship, the project is really very good and I’m absolutely serious.”

Fight for the world championship in MotoGP??? ...in Indycar??? :lol:
It sounds crazy but I'm actually going to go out on a limb and say that next year will be a battle between Hamilton and Verstappen. I think Ferrari will falter. They seem to have gotten a bit lost in development this year and I think the death of their chairman left them in a bit of disarray right at the time when they would be conceiving the 2019 car. The substantial change to the aero for next year also doesn't bode well for them. Rarely are they the team that gets new regulations right.

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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by pokerman »

sandman1347 wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:After the US Gran Prix in Austin Helmut Marko declared, “Next year with the Honda engine I think we can fight for the world championship, the project is really very good and I’m absolutely serious.”

Fight for the world championship in MotoGP??? ...in Indycar??? :lol:
It sounds crazy but I'm actually going to go out on a limb and say that next year will be a battle between Hamilton and Verstappen. I think Ferrari will falter. They seem to have gotten a bit lost in development this year and I think the death of their chairman left them in a bit of disarray right at the time when they would be conceiving the 2019 car. The substantial change to the aero for next year also doesn't bode well for them. Rarely are they the team that gets new regulations right.
Ferrari presently have the fastest car and on that basis they can't be ruled out for next year, I think the Achilles heel for Verstappen's challenge will be reliability.
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2016: 4th Place

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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by Mort Canard »

sandman1347 wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:After the US Gran Prix in Austin Helmut Marko declared, “Next year with the Honda engine I think we can fight for the world championship, the project is really very good and I’m absolutely serious.”

Fight for the world championship in MotoGP??? ...in Indycar??? :lol:
It sounds crazy but I'm actually going to go out on a limb and say that next year will be a battle between Hamilton and Verstappen. I think Ferrari will falter. They seem to have gotten a bit lost in development this year and I think the death of their chairman left them in a bit of disarray right at the time when they would be conceiving the 2019 car. The substantial change to the aero for next year also doesn't bode well for them. Rarely are they the team that gets new regulations right.
Stranger things have happened.

It seems that RBR has a chasis & bodywork to match anyone else on average. They have not had the power unit to get consistently to the level of Merc and Ferrari. The Honda power unit may be a slight upgrade in horsepower and reliability from Renault, but I don't know that it will be enough. It might mean that RBR would be able to challenge for the win on more circuits though.
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AnRs
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by AnRs »

Mort Canard wrote:After the US Gran Prix in Austin Helmut Marko declared, “Next year with the Honda engine I think we can fight for the world championship, the project is really very good and I’m absolutely serious.”

Fight for the world championship in MotoGP??? ...in Indycar??? :lol:
Hope he gets right and Verstappen gets a shot at winning races first, throwing off Merc from their throne wont be an easy task.

Siao7
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by Siao7 »

sandman1347 wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:After the US Gran Prix in Austin Helmut Marko declared, “Next year with the Honda engine I think we can fight for the world championship, the project is really very good and I’m absolutely serious.”

Fight for the world championship in MotoGP??? ...in Indycar??? :lol:
It sounds crazy but I'm actually going to go out on a limb and say that next year will be a battle between Hamilton and Verstappen. I think Ferrari will falter. They seem to have gotten a bit lost in development this year and I think the death of their chairman left them in a bit of disarray right at the time when they would be conceiving the 2019 car. The substantial change to the aero for next year also doesn't bode well for them. Rarely are they the team that gets new regulations right.
The last part is true, but I don't see how the death of the chairman has anything to do with the design of the car. It's not like he was on the drawing board or something... They did pretty nicely after Monti left if I'm not mistaken.

I agree, Hamilton vs Verstappen sounds good, and with a bit of Ferrari in the mix it will be a nice change. And imagine if Renault could do a 2012 Lotus, get a win or two and a few podiums with a solid driver like Ricciardo. It could be fantastic!

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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by aice »

pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:10-8 to Ferrari after USA.
Seems about right.
Just checked AMUS power rankings. Merc ranked ahead of Ferrari in USA.

Overall, AMUS have it at 10-8 to Ferrari after USA.
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AnRs
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by AnRs »

pokerman wrote: Ferrari presently have the fastest car and on that basis they can't be ruled out for next year, I think the Achilles heel for Verstappen's challenge will be reliability.
According to AMUS that you like to refer to they are not.

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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by F1_Ernie »

aice wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:10-8 to Ferrari after USA.
Seems about right.
Just checked AMUS power rankings. Merc ranked ahead of Ferrari in USA.

Overall, AMUS have it at 10-8 to Ferrari after USA.
When I read the article though this is what I have read albeit through translation.

"Mercedes defended # 1 in our power ranking, although Ferrari was better in Austin."

"In qualifying Ferrari and Mercedes were practically equal in terms of speed . In the race , Ferrari outstripped his championship opponent by the lower tire wear. The secret of Ferrari's comeback in a nutshell. The team simply removed all development steps that have come to the car since Singapore."

"21 Mercedes wondered In Austin Ferrari drove again at par with Mercedes. We analyzed the performance of all 10 teams in our form check ..."

"2.21 Mercedes conceded the first defeat since Spa. Already in training, it suggested that the silver arrows in Austin would come under pressure. Hamilton beat Vettel by just 0.061 seconds. That was the Hamilton factor. Bottas lost three tenths to the Ferrari. That was more like reality."

"3/21 Ferrari's number two beat number one Mercedes. Raikkonen was as fast as Hamilton, but kept the tires in better shape. Both Mercedes drove with bubbles on the rear tire. And that not only had something to do with Pirelli's tire pressure increase."

"7.21 Mercedes wondered The quality that Ferrari won the race was the better handling of the tires. Raikkonen could drive at the same pace as Hamilton one-stop race. Hamilton needed two stops. Vettel was faster than Bottas with the same strategy, although he had to make up 11 places and 15 seconds on the second Mercedes."

In my opinion I think they find the cars equal and that's why they still have Mercedes 1 and Ferrari 2 because they follow on from the previous grand prix. Amus normally supply something to back up to support their rankings, I couldn't find anything for Mercedes.
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by Mort Canard »

aice wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:10-8 to Ferrari after USA.
Seems about right.
Just checked AMUS power rankings. Merc ranked ahead of Ferrari in USA.

Overall, AMUS have it at 10-8 to Ferrari after USA.
I am drawing a blank on "AMUS" Who are they and where do I find their website???
Mission WinLater

pokerman
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by pokerman »

F1_Ernie wrote:
aice wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:10-8 to Ferrari after USA.
Seems about right.
Just checked AMUS power rankings. Merc ranked ahead of Ferrari in USA.

Overall, AMUS have it at 10-8 to Ferrari after USA.
When I read the article though this is what I have read albeit through translation.

"Mercedes defended # 1 in our power ranking, although Ferrari was better in Austin."

"In qualifying Ferrari and Mercedes were practically equal in terms of speed . In the race , Ferrari outstripped his championship opponent by the lower tire wear. The secret of Ferrari's comeback in a nutshell. The team simply removed all development steps that have come to the car since Singapore."

"21 Mercedes wondered In Austin Ferrari drove again at par with Mercedes. We analyzed the performance of all 10 teams in our form check ..."

"2.21 Mercedes conceded the first defeat since Spa. Already in training, it suggested that the silver arrows in Austin would come under pressure. Hamilton beat Vettel by just 0.061 seconds. That was the Hamilton factor. Bottas lost three tenths to the Ferrari. That was more like reality."

"3/21 Ferrari's number two beat number one Mercedes. Raikkonen was as fast as Hamilton, but kept the tires in better shape. Both Mercedes drove with bubbles on the rear tire. And that not only had something to do with Pirelli's tire pressure increase."

"7.21 Mercedes wondered The quality that Ferrari won the race was the better handling of the tires. Raikkonen could drive at the same pace as Hamilton one-stop race. Hamilton needed two stops. Vettel was faster than Bottas with the same strategy, although he had to make up 11 places and 15 seconds on the second Mercedes."

In my opinion I think they find the cars equal and that's why they still have Mercedes 1 and Ferrari 2 because they follow on from the previous grand prix. Amus normally supply something to back up to support their rankings, I couldn't find anything for Mercedes.
I've actually noticed a flaw in what they do and it's when teams have different strategies in terms of number of pit stops and it's what they also did in China with Red Bull a race that Ricciardo won and they had Red Bull as quickest, basically if you take on fresher tyres you are going to be quicker.
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2014: Champion
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2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

Mort Canard wrote:
aice wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:10-8 to Ferrari after USA.
Seems about right.
Just checked AMUS power rankings. Merc ranked ahead of Ferrari in USA.

Overall, AMUS have it at 10-8 to Ferrari after USA.
I am drawing a blank on "AMUS" Who are they and where do I find their website???
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/

Siao7
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by Siao7 »

F1_Ernie wrote:
aice wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:10-8 to Ferrari after USA.
Seems about right.
Just checked AMUS power rankings. Merc ranked ahead of Ferrari in USA.

Overall, AMUS have it at 10-8 to Ferrari after USA.
When I read the article though this is what I have read albeit through translation.

"Mercedes defended # 1 in our power ranking, although Ferrari was better in Austin."

"In qualifying Ferrari and Mercedes were practically equal in terms of speed . In the race , Ferrari outstripped his championship opponent by the lower tire wear. The secret of Ferrari's comeback in a nutshell. The team simply removed all development steps that have come to the car since Singapore."

"21 Mercedes wondered In Austin Ferrari drove again at par with Mercedes. We analyzed the performance of all 10 teams in our form check ..."

"2.21 Mercedes conceded the first defeat since Spa. Already in training, it suggested that the silver arrows in Austin would come under pressure. Hamilton beat Vettel by just 0.061 seconds. That was the Hamilton factor. Bottas lost three tenths to the Ferrari. That was more like reality."

"3/21 Ferrari's number two beat number one Mercedes. Raikkonen was as fast as Hamilton, but kept the tires in better shape. Both Mercedes drove with bubbles on the rear tire. And that not only had something to do with Pirelli's tire pressure increase."

"7.21 Mercedes wondered The quality that Ferrari won the race was the better handling of the tires. Raikkonen could drive at the same pace as Hamilton one-stop race. Hamilton needed two stops. Vettel was faster than Bottas with the same strategy, although he had to make up 11 places and 15 seconds on the second Mercedes."

In my opinion I think they find the cars equal and that's why they still have Mercedes 1 and Ferrari 2 because they follow on from the previous grand prix. Amus normally supply something to back up to support their rankings, I couldn't find anything for Mercedes.
Not sure about 3.21. Kimi was not faster than Hamilton, Hamilton was gaining on him, especially at the last stint (after Hamilton's second stop, the last 18 laps). With blistered rears. And Kimi in clear air. How does that indicate that the 2nd Ferrari was faster than the 1st Merc in true form?

Max was also gaining on him, having started some 15 places behind him and with a one stop strategy as well (granted, different tyres in the second stint, but Max made them last very well). He was actually lucky to have Hamilton pestering Max, otherwise I think Max would have had a proper go at Kimi.

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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by F1_Ernie »

pokerman wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
aice wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:10-8 to Ferrari after USA.
Seems about right.
Just checked AMUS power rankings. Merc ranked ahead of Ferrari in USA.

Overall, AMUS have it at 10-8 to Ferrari after USA.
When I read the article though this is what I have read albeit through translation.

"Mercedes defended # 1 in our power ranking, although Ferrari was better in Austin."

"In qualifying Ferrari and Mercedes were practically equal in terms of speed . In the race , Ferrari outstripped his championship opponent by the lower tire wear. The secret of Ferrari's comeback in a nutshell. The team simply removed all development steps that have come to the car since Singapore."

"21 Mercedes wondered In Austin Ferrari drove again at par with Mercedes. We analyzed the performance of all 10 teams in our form check ..."

"2.21 Mercedes conceded the first defeat since Spa. Already in training, it suggested that the silver arrows in Austin would come under pressure. Hamilton beat Vettel by just 0.061 seconds. That was the Hamilton factor. Bottas lost three tenths to the Ferrari. That was more like reality."

"3/21 Ferrari's number two beat number one Mercedes. Raikkonen was as fast as Hamilton, but kept the tires in better shape. Both Mercedes drove with bubbles on the rear tire. And that not only had something to do with Pirelli's tire pressure increase."

"7.21 Mercedes wondered The quality that Ferrari won the race was the better handling of the tires. Raikkonen could drive at the same pace as Hamilton one-stop race. Hamilton needed two stops. Vettel was faster than Bottas with the same strategy, although he had to make up 11 places and 15 seconds on the second Mercedes."

In my opinion I think they find the cars equal and that's why they still have Mercedes 1 and Ferrari 2 because they follow on from the previous grand prix. Amus normally supply something to back up to support their rankings, I couldn't find anything for Mercedes.
I've actually noticed a flaw in what they do and it's when teams have different strategies in terms of number of pit stops and it's what they also did in China with Red Bull a race that Ricciardo won and they had Red Bull as quickest, basically if you take on fresher tyres you are going to be quicker.
When you read the article it comes across they are backing Ferrari as the faster car. I don't have a problem Amus rating Mercedes the better car if that's what they believe, it's just they normally back this up with something technical but there is nothing.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

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2018: 12th place

Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by Mort Canard »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
aice wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:10-8 to Ferrari after USA.
Seems about right.
Just checked AMUS power rankings. Merc ranked ahead of Ferrari in USA.

Overall, AMUS have it at 10-8 to Ferrari after USA.
I am drawing a blank on "AMUS" Who are they and where do I find their website???
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/
Thanks!! :thumbup:
Mission WinLater

F1_Ernie
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by F1_Ernie »

Siao7 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
aice wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:10-8 to Ferrari after USA.
Seems about right.
Just checked AMUS power rankings. Merc ranked ahead of Ferrari in USA.

Overall, AMUS have it at 10-8 to Ferrari after USA.
When I read the article though this is what I have read albeit through translation.

"Mercedes defended # 1 in our power ranking, although Ferrari was better in Austin."

"In qualifying Ferrari and Mercedes were practically equal in terms of speed . In the race , Ferrari outstripped his championship opponent by the lower tire wear. The secret of Ferrari's comeback in a nutshell. The team simply removed all development steps that have come to the car since Singapore."

"21 Mercedes wondered In Austin Ferrari drove again at par with Mercedes. We analyzed the performance of all 10 teams in our form check ..."

"2.21 Mercedes conceded the first defeat since Spa. Already in training, it suggested that the silver arrows in Austin would come under pressure. Hamilton beat Vettel by just 0.061 seconds. That was the Hamilton factor. Bottas lost three tenths to the Ferrari. That was more like reality."

"3/21 Ferrari's number two beat number one Mercedes. Raikkonen was as fast as Hamilton, but kept the tires in better shape. Both Mercedes drove with bubbles on the rear tire. And that not only had something to do with Pirelli's tire pressure increase."

"7.21 Mercedes wondered The quality that Ferrari won the race was the better handling of the tires. Raikkonen could drive at the same pace as Hamilton one-stop race. Hamilton needed two stops. Vettel was faster than Bottas with the same strategy, although he had to make up 11 places and 15 seconds on the second Mercedes."

In my opinion I think they find the cars equal and that's why they still have Mercedes 1 and Ferrari 2 because they follow on from the previous grand prix. Amus normally supply something to back up to support their rankings, I couldn't find anything for Mercedes.
Not sure about 3.21. Kimi was not faster than Hamilton, Hamilton was gaining on him, especially at the last stint (after Hamilton's second stop, the last 18 laps). With blistered rears. And Kimi in clear air. How does that indicate that the 2nd Ferrari was faster than the 1st Merc in true form?

Max was also gaining on him, having started some 15 places behind him and with a one stop strategy as well (granted, different tyres in the second stint, but Max made them last very well). He was actually lucky to have Hamilton pestering Max, otherwise I think Max would have had a proper go at Kimi.
It's not my view but translated from their website. It does say as fast as Hamilton and not faster unless the translation is wrong. Hamilton had 16 lap fresher tyres on low fuel, he was always catching Kimi who was nursing a 1 stopper. Overtaking was difficult and track position ended up being key.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2016: 24th place
2017: 4th place
2018: 12th place

Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016, 3rd China 2018, 3rd Japan 2018, 2nd Mexico 2018

aice
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by aice »

pokerman wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
aice wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:10-8 to Ferrari after USA.
Seems about right.
Just checked AMUS power rankings. Merc ranked ahead of Ferrari in USA.

Overall, AMUS have it at 10-8 to Ferrari after USA.
When I read the article though this is what I have read albeit through translation.

"Mercedes defended # 1 in our power ranking, although Ferrari was better in Austin."

"In qualifying Ferrari and Mercedes were practically equal in terms of speed . In the race , Ferrari outstripped his championship opponent by the lower tire wear. The secret of Ferrari's comeback in a nutshell. The team simply removed all development steps that have come to the car since Singapore."

"21 Mercedes wondered In Austin Ferrari drove again at par with Mercedes. We analyzed the performance of all 10 teams in our form check ..."

"2.21 Mercedes conceded the first defeat since Spa. Already in training, it suggested that the silver arrows in Austin would come under pressure. Hamilton beat Vettel by just 0.061 seconds. That was the Hamilton factor. Bottas lost three tenths to the Ferrari. That was more like reality."

"3/21 Ferrari's number two beat number one Mercedes. Raikkonen was as fast as Hamilton, but kept the tires in better shape. Both Mercedes drove with bubbles on the rear tire. And that not only had something to do with Pirelli's tire pressure increase."

"7.21 Mercedes wondered The quality that Ferrari won the race was the better handling of the tires. Raikkonen could drive at the same pace as Hamilton one-stop race. Hamilton needed two stops. Vettel was faster than Bottas with the same strategy, although he had to make up 11 places and 15 seconds on the second Mercedes."

In my opinion I think they find the cars equal and that's why they still have Mercedes 1 and Ferrari 2 because they follow on from the previous grand prix. Amus normally supply something to back up to support their rankings, I couldn't find anything for Mercedes.
I've actually noticed a flaw in what they do and it's when teams have different strategies in terms of number of pit stops and it's what they also did in China with Red Bull a race that Ricciardo won and they had Red Bull as quickest, basically if you take on fresher tyres you are going to be quicker.
In China, they ranked Ferrari as overall quickest. Ricciardo's victory was partly due to strategy, but AMUS did note that RB was quickest when all the 3 teams were on the same compound.

"Red Bull has finally shown what the car can do. The victory was certainly favored by the right strategy, but even the middle stint on the medium has shown how good the RB14 is. Ricciardo and Verstappen drove faster lap times on the toughest tires than Ferrari and Mercedes."
You just need to be accepted for who you are and be proud of who you are and that is what I'm trying to do.
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by pokerman »

aice wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
aice wrote:
pokerman wrote: Seems about right.
Just checked AMUS power rankings. Merc ranked ahead of Ferrari in USA.

Overall, AMUS have it at 10-8 to Ferrari after USA.
When I read the article though this is what I have read albeit through translation.

"Mercedes defended # 1 in our power ranking, although Ferrari was better in Austin."

"In qualifying Ferrari and Mercedes were practically equal in terms of speed . In the race , Ferrari outstripped his championship opponent by the lower tire wear. The secret of Ferrari's comeback in a nutshell. The team simply removed all development steps that have come to the car since Singapore."

"21 Mercedes wondered In Austin Ferrari drove again at par with Mercedes. We analyzed the performance of all 10 teams in our form check ..."

"2.21 Mercedes conceded the first defeat since Spa. Already in training, it suggested that the silver arrows in Austin would come under pressure. Hamilton beat Vettel by just 0.061 seconds. That was the Hamilton factor. Bottas lost three tenths to the Ferrari. That was more like reality."

"3/21 Ferrari's number two beat number one Mercedes. Raikkonen was as fast as Hamilton, but kept the tires in better shape. Both Mercedes drove with bubbles on the rear tire. And that not only had something to do with Pirelli's tire pressure increase."

"7.21 Mercedes wondered The quality that Ferrari won the race was the better handling of the tires. Raikkonen could drive at the same pace as Hamilton one-stop race. Hamilton needed two stops. Vettel was faster than Bottas with the same strategy, although he had to make up 11 places and 15 seconds on the second Mercedes."

In my opinion I think they find the cars equal and that's why they still have Mercedes 1 and Ferrari 2 because they follow on from the previous grand prix. Amus normally supply something to back up to support their rankings, I couldn't find anything for Mercedes.
I've actually noticed a flaw in what they do and it's when teams have different strategies in terms of number of pit stops and it's what they also did in China with Red Bull a race that Ricciardo won and they had Red Bull as quickest, basically if you take on fresher tyres you are going to be quicker.
In China, they ranked Ferrari as overall quickest. Ricciardo's victory was partly due to strategy, but AMUS did note that RB was quickest when all the 3 teams were on the same compound.

"Red Bull has finally shown what the car can do. The victory was certainly favored by the right strategy, but even the middle stint on the medium has shown how good the RB14 is. Ricciardo and Verstappen drove faster lap times on the toughest tires than Ferrari and Mercedes."
Fair enough I'm happy with the explanation of China, however the explanation of Austin doesn't match up with their conclusion, Ferrari were faster in qualifying and from my point of view Vettel was the fastest driver in the race.

So AMUS now has it 10-8 to Ferrari which I guess now also matches up with both Autosport and RaceFans?
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

Siao7
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by Siao7 »

F1_Ernie wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
aice wrote:
pokerman wrote: Seems about right.
Just checked AMUS power rankings. Merc ranked ahead of Ferrari in USA.

Overall, AMUS have it at 10-8 to Ferrari after USA.
When I read the article though this is what I have read albeit through translation.

"Mercedes defended # 1 in our power ranking, although Ferrari was better in Austin."

"In qualifying Ferrari and Mercedes were practically equal in terms of speed . In the race , Ferrari outstripped his championship opponent by the lower tire wear. The secret of Ferrari's comeback in a nutshell. The team simply removed all development steps that have come to the car since Singapore."

"21 Mercedes wondered In Austin Ferrari drove again at par with Mercedes. We analyzed the performance of all 10 teams in our form check ..."

"2.21 Mercedes conceded the first defeat since Spa. Already in training, it suggested that the silver arrows in Austin would come under pressure. Hamilton beat Vettel by just 0.061 seconds. That was the Hamilton factor. Bottas lost three tenths to the Ferrari. That was more like reality."

"3/21 Ferrari's number two beat number one Mercedes. Raikkonen was as fast as Hamilton, but kept the tires in better shape. Both Mercedes drove with bubbles on the rear tire. And that not only had something to do with Pirelli's tire pressure increase."

"7.21 Mercedes wondered The quality that Ferrari won the race was the better handling of the tires. Raikkonen could drive at the same pace as Hamilton one-stop race. Hamilton needed two stops. Vettel was faster than Bottas with the same strategy, although he had to make up 11 places and 15 seconds on the second Mercedes."

In my opinion I think they find the cars equal and that's why they still have Mercedes 1 and Ferrari 2 because they follow on from the previous grand prix. Amus normally supply something to back up to support their rankings, I couldn't find anything for Mercedes.
Not sure about 3.21. Kimi was not faster than Hamilton, Hamilton was gaining on him, especially at the last stint (after Hamilton's second stop, the last 18 laps). With blistered rears. And Kimi in clear air. How does that indicate that the 2nd Ferrari was faster than the 1st Merc in true form?

Max was also gaining on him, having started some 15 places behind him and with a one stop strategy as well (granted, different tyres in the second stint, but Max made them last very well). He was actually lucky to have Hamilton pestering Max, otherwise I think Max would have had a proper go at Kimi.
It's not my view but translated from their website. It does say as fast as Hamilton and not faster unless the translation is wrong. Hamilton had 16 lap fresher tyres on low fuel, he was always catching Kimi who was nursing a 1 stopper. Overtaking was difficult and track position ended up being key.
I know, I wasn't questioning you, just a general remark to the point that the No 2 beat the other No 1 and was as fast.

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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by aice »

F1_Ernie wrote:
aice wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:10-8 to Ferrari after USA.
Seems about right.
Just checked AMUS power rankings. Merc ranked ahead of Ferrari in USA.

Overall, AMUS have it at 10-8 to Ferrari after USA.
When I read the article though this is what I have read albeit through translation.

"Mercedes defended # 1 in our power ranking, although Ferrari was better in Austin."

"In qualifying Ferrari and Mercedes were practically equal in terms of speed . In the race , Ferrari outstripped his championship opponent by the lower tire wear. The secret of Ferrari's comeback in a nutshell. The team simply removed all development steps that have come to the car since Singapore."

"21 Mercedes wondered In Austin Ferrari drove again at par with Mercedes. We analyzed the performance of all 10 teams in our form check ..."

"2.21 Mercedes conceded the first defeat since Spa. Already in training, it suggested that the silver arrows in Austin would come under pressure. Hamilton beat Vettel by just 0.061 seconds. That was the Hamilton factor. Bottas lost three tenths to the Ferrari. That was more like reality."

"3/21 Ferrari's number two beat number one Mercedes. Raikkonen was as fast as Hamilton, but kept the tires in better shape. Both Mercedes drove with bubbles on the rear tire. And that not only had something to do with Pirelli's tire pressure increase."

"7.21 Mercedes wondered The quality that Ferrari won the race was the better handling of the tires. Raikkonen could drive at the same pace as Hamilton one-stop race. Hamilton needed two stops. Vettel was faster than Bottas with the same strategy, although he had to make up 11 places and 15 seconds on the second Mercedes."

In my opinion I think they find the cars equal and that's why they still have Mercedes 1 and Ferrari 2 because they follow on from the previous grand prix. Amus normally supply something to back up to support their rankings, I couldn't find anything for Mercedes.
Earlier, I didn't have sufficient time to read the gallery comments. Now, having just done so, i have come to the same conclusion. Ferrari & Mercedes were ranked on a par in the US.

What are AMUS' current, overall scores now? I make it (AMUS tally) 10-7 to Ferrari, excluding USA- (USA being a draw.)
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by Johnson »

They were not quicker nor did they set the fastest lap times in China on the mediums. Hamilton set fastest lap of that stint. Bottas And Vettel 2nd and 3rd. Bottas was driving slowly to take the mediums to the end and Vettel was held up by Bottas and even then Verstappen only took 1 second out of Bottas in 13 odd laps.Hamilton was also catching Verstappen.

Red Bull were no where near quickest on the medium

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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by aice »

Johnson wrote:They were not quicker nor did they set the fastest lap times in China on the mediums. Hamilton set fastest lap of that stint. Bottas And Vettel 2nd and 3rd. Bottas was driving slowly to take the mediums to the end and Vettel was held up by Bottas and even then Verstappen only took 1 second out of Bottas in 13 odd laps.Hamilton was also catching Verstappen.

Red Bull were no where near quickest on the medium
It's a German website, so maybe some of this is getting lost in translation. The mediums was the first time all 3 teams raced on the same tyre. I haven't checked the lap times, but from how i interpret, AMUS isn't stating RB was ultimately fastest on the mediums. But rather, they managed to pull some faster lap times than both Merc & Ferrari during that stint. And just to reiterate, AMUS did cite Ferrari, not RB, as fastest overall.
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by AnRs »

To me it looks quite obvious how they rank Austin?

Mercedes (1)
Ferrari (2)
Red Bull (3)

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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by AnRs »

AnRs wrote:To me it looks quite obvious how they rank Austin?

Mercedes (1)
Ferrari (2)
Red Bull (3)
That's in race, in qualifying they rank them equal

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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by Teddy007 »

AnRs wrote:
AnRs wrote:To me it looks quite obvious how they rank Austin?

Mercedes (1)
Ferrari (2)
Red Bull (3)
That's in race, in qualifying they rank them equal
Explains why Max in the 3rd best car, starting at the back of the grid was able to beat both Mercs and be right behind the typically slowest Ferrari driver.

Explains why Seb, with his weekend mistakes still managed to beat 1 Merc.

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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by pokerman »

AnRs wrote:
AnRs wrote:To me it looks quite obvious how they rank Austin?

Mercedes (1)
Ferrari (2)
Red Bull (3)
That's in race, in qualifying they rank them equal
I guess you just read what you want to read, it suggested that were Bottas qualified was the true speed of the Mercedes and they credited Hamilton himself for pole position.
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by AnRs »

pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
AnRs wrote:To me it looks quite obvious how they rank Austin?

Mercedes (1)
Ferrari (2)
Red Bull (3)
That's in race, in qualifying they rank them equal
I guess you just read what you want to read, it suggested that were Bottas qualified was the true speed of the Mercedes and they credited Hamilton himself for pole position.
Is that what yo get from "In qualifying Ferrari and Mercedes were practically equal in terms of speed." ? I suggest you do your own interpretation and stop pointing at others

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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by JN23 »

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... nce-50-kg/

Interesting article if I have understood it properly. I must admit I am not completely clued up on the technical side of F1 and the google translate of this article isn't great.

- Right hand side of Merc was 50kg heavier than the left in the race which led to balance issues. Similar to those Red Bull suffered in Hungary qualifying where they underperformed quite considerably.
- It also seems the FIA gave Merc the green light over their holes in the wheel rims on Saturday but Merc didn't want to risk it as if there was a protest, the stewards would make a decision not the FIA. Although if the FIA said they were fine, would the stewards go against that ruling? Merc will only revert to the holes in wheel rims if it is confirmed they are safe from protests.

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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by pokerman »

AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
AnRs wrote:To me it looks quite obvious how they rank Austin?

Mercedes (1)
Ferrari (2)
Red Bull (3)
That's in race, in qualifying they rank them equal
I guess you just read what you want to read, it suggested that were Bottas qualified was the true speed of the Mercedes and they credited Hamilton himself for pole position.
Is that what yo get from "In qualifying Ferrari and Mercedes were practically equal in terms of speed." ? I suggest you do your own interpretation and stop pointing at others
"In qualifying Ferrari and Mercedes were practically equal in terms of speed . In the race , Ferrari outstripped his championship opponent by the lower tire wear. The secret of Ferrari's comeback in a nutshell. The team simply removed all development steps that have come to the car since Singapore."

"21 Mercedes wondered In Austin Ferrari drove again at par with Mercedes. We analyzed the performance of all 10 teams in our form check ..."

"2.21 Mercedes conceded the first defeat since Spa. Already in training, it suggested that the silver arrows in Austin would come under pressure. Hamilton beat Vettel by just 0.061 seconds. That was the Hamilton factor. Bottas lost three tenths to the Ferrari. That was more like reality."
I've highlighted the relative bits, I've seen this technique before of selective reading and posting.
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by pokerman »

JN23 wrote:https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... nce-50-kg/

Interesting article if I have understood it properly. I must admit I am not completely clued up on the technical side of F1 and the google translate of this article isn't great.

- Right hand side of Merc was 50kg heavier than the left in the race which led to balance issues. Similar to those Red Bull suffered in Hungary qualifying where they underperformed quite considerably.
- It also seems the FIA gave Merc the green light over their holes in the wheel rims on Saturday but Merc didn't want to risk it as if there was a protest, the stewards would make a decision not the FIA. Although if the FIA said they were fine, would the stewards go against that ruling? Merc will only revert to the holes in wheel rims if it is confirmed they are safe from protests.
They had to quickly rebuild both cars after changing the water pumps before the race.
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by JN23 »

pokerman wrote:
JN23 wrote:https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... nce-50-kg/

Interesting article if I have understood it properly. I must admit I am not completely clued up on the technical side of F1 and the google translate of this article isn't great.

- Right hand side of Merc was 50kg heavier than the left in the race which led to balance issues. Similar to those Red Bull suffered in Hungary qualifying where they underperformed quite considerably.
- It also seems the FIA gave Merc the green light over their holes in the wheel rims on Saturday but Merc didn't want to risk it as if there was a protest, the stewards would make a decision not the FIA. Although if the FIA said they were fine, would the stewards go against that ruling? Merc will only revert to the holes in wheel rims if it is confirmed they are safe from protests.
They had to quickly rebuild both cars after changing the water pumps before the race.
It was suggested somewhere that changing the water pumps is what led to one side being heavier than the other. I guess proof of that might be whether they are back ahead of Ferrari this weekend?

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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by Exediron »

pokerman wrote:Hamilton beat Vettel by just 0.061 seconds. That was the Hamilton factor. Bottas lost three tenths to the Ferrari. That was more like reality.
Obviously I do think Hamilton is quicker than Vettel (I've said that before), but I don't agree with saying Hamilton was 3 tenths quicker than the real pace of the car. Bottas was poor in the race; he couldn't make his tyres last, and wasn't even able to hold off a guy who spun on lap one. I think it's reasonable to assume he was poor in qualifying as well.

There are times when Hamilton pulls out a spectacular lap that upsets the competitive balance of the cars - Singapore, for example - but I don't see this as being one of those. The cars were basically equal, and Bottas had a bad lap.
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:Hamilton beat Vettel by just 0.061 seconds. That was the Hamilton factor. Bottas lost three tenths to the Ferrari. That was more like reality.
Obviously I do think Hamilton is quicker than Vettel (I've said that before), but I don't agree with saying Hamilton was 3 tenths quicker than the real pace of the car. Bottas was poor in the race; he couldn't make his tyres last, and wasn't even able to hold off a guy who spun on lap one. I think it's reasonable to assume he was poor in qualifying as well.

There are times when Hamilton pulls out a spectacular lap that upsets the competitive balance of the cars - Singapore, for example - but I don't see this as being one of those. The cars were basically equal, and Bottas had a bad lap.
Well I just highlighted that because the poster claimed that AMuS categorically stated that the cars were equal in qualifying.

As for what you think that's the problem, the Mercedes wasn't slow it was just Bottas that was slow, it's just opinion, me personally like AMuS I believed that the pole was more down to Hamilton but then again I'm a Hamilton supporter.

If Ricciardo hadn't retired Bottas would have finished a distant 6th yet the Mercedes was the fastest car it was just Bottas that was slow, how can we really define such things?
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by AnRs »

pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:Hamilton beat Vettel by just 0.061 seconds. That was the Hamilton factor. Bottas lost three tenths to the Ferrari. That was more like reality.
Obviously I do think Hamilton is quicker than Vettel (I've said that before), but I don't agree with saying Hamilton was 3 tenths quicker than the real pace of the car. Bottas was poor in the race; he couldn't make his tyres last, and wasn't even able to hold off a guy who spun on lap one. I think it's reasonable to assume he was poor in qualifying as well.

There are times when Hamilton pulls out a spectacular lap that upsets the competitive balance of the cars - Singapore, for example - but I don't see this as being one of those. The cars were basically equal, and Bottas had a bad lap.
Well I just highlighted that because the poster claimed that AMuS categorically stated that the cars were equal in qualifying.

As for what you think that's the problem, the Mercedes wasn't slow it was just Bottas that was slow, it's just opinion, me personally like AMuS I believed that the pole was more down to Hamilton but then again I'm a Hamilton supporter.

If Ricciardo hadn't retired Bottas would have finished a distant 6th yet the Mercedes was the fastest car it was just Bottas that was slow, how can we really define such things?
It's you who are trying to twist it, when they summarize the qualifying, the source that you have used they say the cars where equal.
Everyone knows that Merc throws everything behind Hamilton, so he should be faster than Bottas.

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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by JN23 »

I can't find the article now but saw it on twitter earlier, that the stewards have apparently given Mercs wheel rims the all clear.

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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by Herb »

JN23 wrote:I can't find the article now but saw it on twitter earlier, that the stewards have apparently given Mercs wheel rims the all clear.

Here you go:

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... n/3202292/

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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by BMWSauber84 »

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/45984212

Merc are saying they balanced the cars incorrectly when they reassembled them after the fuel pump drama in Austin. This could obviously be seen as making excuses, but if true then there was clearly more potential in that Merc in Austin.

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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by pokerman »

AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:Hamilton beat Vettel by just 0.061 seconds. That was the Hamilton factor. Bottas lost three tenths to the Ferrari. That was more like reality.
Obviously I do think Hamilton is quicker than Vettel (I've said that before), but I don't agree with saying Hamilton was 3 tenths quicker than the real pace of the car. Bottas was poor in the race; he couldn't make his tyres last, and wasn't even able to hold off a guy who spun on lap one. I think it's reasonable to assume he was poor in qualifying as well.

There are times when Hamilton pulls out a spectacular lap that upsets the competitive balance of the cars - Singapore, for example - but I don't see this as being one of those. The cars were basically equal, and Bottas had a bad lap.
Well I just highlighted that because the poster claimed that AMuS categorically stated that the cars were equal in qualifying.

As for what you think that's the problem, the Mercedes wasn't slow it was just Bottas that was slow, it's just opinion, me personally like AMuS I believed that the pole was more down to Hamilton but then again I'm a Hamilton supporter.

If Ricciardo hadn't retired Bottas would have finished a distant 6th yet the Mercedes was the fastest car it was just Bottas that was slow, how can we really define such things?
It's you who are trying to twist it, when they summarize the qualifying, the source that you have used they say the cars where equal.
Everyone knows that Merc throws everything behind Hamilton, so he should be faster than Bottas.
Why didn't you address my actual post on the matter instead of just skirting around it and ignoring it?
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by pokerman »

Herb wrote:
JN23 wrote:I can't find the article now but saw it on twitter earlier, that the stewards have apparently given Mercs wheel rims the all clear.

Here you go:

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... n/3202292/
I guess the potential Ferrari protest after Austin was basically always going to be Ferrari's last roll of the dice, Mercedes being cautious was in part to prevent their titles being blemished.
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