[Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

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pokerman
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by pokerman »

j man wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Invade wrote: I gave qualifying to Ferrari, yeah. Haven't been able to really follow the weekend but I'm guessing there has been no particularly useful long running, but that doesn't necessarily translate to the race anyway.

Looks to me like Ferrari got Hammed.
My take as well. This is a track Hamilton has dominated and Bottas was nearly four tenths behind. Ferrari look like they are back on form. In the race I expect something similar to Italy after lap 1; with Vettel dealing with traffic while Hamilton and Raikkonen battle at the front. As such, race pace will be impossible to discern.

It begs the question of what exactly explains Ferrari's abysmal qualifying performances in Russia and Japan.
It was said to be tyre related but Ferrari's extra speed on the straights seems to be back.
Did the FIA remove that sensor?
There's something weird going on behind the scenes. It's as if the FIA banned something on the Ferrari and then allowed it back again now that the championship is pretty much over to prevent Mercedes from walking the last few races. I can't think of any other explanation, the change in Ferrari's competitiveness is much too big for it to just be circuit related.

The only other time I can recall seeing such a dramatic and sudden performance swing back and forth was the sudden banning and un-banning of exhaust blown diffusers during 2011.
No it was simply the upgrades that Ferrari introduced after Singapore which also had the affect of taking away Ferrari's accelerating advantage which then lead to theories about the FIA having fitted another sensor and Ferrari were cheating all along etc. etc.

Now they are back to Singapore spec once again we see Ferrari has having the fastest car, Hamilton very much stole another pole in Austin.
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pokerman
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by pokerman »

AnRs wrote:
j man wrote: There's something weird going on behind the scenes. It's as if the FIA banned something on the Ferrari and then allowed it back again now that the championship is pretty much over to prevent Mercedes from walking the last few races. I can't think of any other explanation, the change in Ferrari's competitiveness is much too big for it to just be circuit related.

The only other time I can recall seeing such a dramatic and sudden performance swing back and forth was the sudden banning and un-banning of exhaust blown diffusers during 2011.
Perhaps you are looking in the wrong garage for explanations? It's a rumour that Merc had to change the rims they introduced in Singapore.
I think you need a source for that?
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2013: 5th Place
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Covalent
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by Covalent »

pokerman wrote:
j man wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote: My take as well. This is a track Hamilton has dominated and Bottas was nearly four tenths behind. Ferrari look like they are back on form. In the race I expect something similar to Italy after lap 1; with Vettel dealing with traffic while Hamilton and Raikkonen battle at the front. As such, race pace will be impossible to discern.

It begs the question of what exactly explains Ferrari's abysmal qualifying performances in Russia and Japan.
It was said to be tyre related but Ferrari's extra speed on the straights seems to be back.
Did the FIA remove that sensor?
There's something weird going on behind the scenes. It's as if the FIA banned something on the Ferrari and then allowed it back again now that the championship is pretty much over to prevent Mercedes from walking the last few races. I can't think of any other explanation, the change in Ferrari's competitiveness is much too big for it to just be circuit related.

The only other time I can recall seeing such a dramatic and sudden performance swing back and forth was the sudden banning and un-banning of exhaust blown diffusers during 2011.
No it was simply the upgrades that Ferrari introduced after Singapore which also had the affect of taking away Ferrari's accelerating advantage which then lead to theories about the FIA having fitted another sensor and Ferrari were cheating all along etc. etc.

Now they are back to Singapore spec once again we see Ferrari has having the fastest car, Hamilton very much stole another pole in Austin.
Or, they're virtually equal.

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Johnson
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by Johnson »

These are always a million times more telling than top speed data -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GH-Uv6OKeDc

I love that the FIA put these together, so interesting to see where time is won and lost. Hamilton is 0.3 down after only about 20 seconds. But claws it all back through the esses.

The amazing thing about that lap was during the 92 second lap, Hamilton was ahead of Vettel for 6 seconds of it (2 seconds in the middle of the lap and the last 4 seconds). The other 86 seconds, Vettel was ahead by usually 0.050-0.200 on average.

Given that Bottas was 0.3 off Kimi and Kimi just 0.070 off Lewis and Vettel made a small error on his lap and was just 0.010 ahead of Kimi - Ferrari was the car to have in qualifying. Very marginal, but this is my reading of it.

It could be due to the wash out of Friday but Ferrari was also the car for the race, we always get odd races when Friday is rained off (Spa 2012 for example) and lots of gambles are made with setup and there is of course no long run data come race day. But Ferrari are back based on this weekend.

AnRs
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by AnRs »

pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
j man wrote: There's something weird going on behind the scenes. It's as if the FIA banned something on the Ferrari and then allowed it back again now that the championship is pretty much over to prevent Mercedes from walking the last few races. I can't think of any other explanation, the change in Ferrari's competitiveness is much too big for it to just be circuit related.

The only other time I can recall seeing such a dramatic and sudden performance swing back and forth was the sudden banning and un-banning of exhaust blown diffusers during 2011.
Perhaps you are looking in the wrong garage for explanations? It's a rumour that Merc had to change the rims they introduced in Singapore.
I think you need a source for that?
It's all over other sites, just not here, it will soon find it's way here too.
Apparently Merc introduced a new rim in Singapore that gone banned now, and suddenly a drop in Merc tyre performance.

JamWalsh
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by JamWalsh »

http://f1i.com/news/320613-fia-gives-th ... esign.html

Found this on F1i, did they change the rims again after this?

pokerman
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by pokerman »

Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
j man wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote: It was said to be tyre related but Ferrari's extra speed on the straights seems to be back.
Did the FIA remove that sensor?
There's something weird going on behind the scenes. It's as if the FIA banned something on the Ferrari and then allowed it back again now that the championship is pretty much over to prevent Mercedes from walking the last few races. I can't think of any other explanation, the change in Ferrari's competitiveness is much too big for it to just be circuit related.

The only other time I can recall seeing such a dramatic and sudden performance swing back and forth was the sudden banning and un-banning of exhaust blown diffusers during 2011.
No it was simply the upgrades that Ferrari introduced after Singapore which also had the affect of taking away Ferrari's accelerating advantage which then lead to theories about the FIA having fitted another sensor and Ferrari were cheating all along etc. etc.

Now they are back to Singapore spec once again we see Ferrari has having the fastest car, Hamilton very much stole another pole in Austin.
Or, they're virtually equal.
Not this again, how do you measure virtually equal, one tenth, two tenths, three tenths?
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JN23
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by JN23 »

AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
j man wrote: There's something weird going on behind the scenes. It's as if the FIA banned something on the Ferrari and then allowed it back again now that the championship is pretty much over to prevent Mercedes from walking the last few races. I can't think of any other explanation, the change in Ferrari's competitiveness is much too big for it to just be circuit related.

The only other time I can recall seeing such a dramatic and sudden performance swing back and forth was the sudden banning and un-banning of exhaust blown diffusers during 2011.
Perhaps you are looking in the wrong garage for explanations? It's a rumour that Merc had to change the rims they introduced in Singapore.
I think you need a source for that?
It's all over other sites, just not here, it will soon find it's way here too.
Apparently Merc introduced a new rim in Singapore that gone banned now, and suddenly a drop in Merc tyre performance.
I have just googled 'Mercedes f1 wheel rims' and got this:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13944 ... rari-query

So unless you want to provide some sort of source to back up your claim, I'll assume that you're WUMing.

pokerman
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by pokerman »

AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
j man wrote: There's something weird going on behind the scenes. It's as if the FIA banned something on the Ferrari and then allowed it back again now that the championship is pretty much over to prevent Mercedes from walking the last few races. I can't think of any other explanation, the change in Ferrari's competitiveness is much too big for it to just be circuit related.

The only other time I can recall seeing such a dramatic and sudden performance swing back and forth was the sudden banning and un-banning of exhaust blown diffusers during 2011.
Perhaps you are looking in the wrong garage for explanations? It's a rumour that Merc had to change the rims they introduced in Singapore.
I think you need a source for that?
It's all over other sites, just not here, it will soon find it's way here too.
Apparently Merc introduced a new rim in Singapore that gone banned now, and suddenly a drop in Merc tyre performance.
That being the case it's not that hard to give a link to any of the sites.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

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pokerman
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by pokerman »

JN23 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
j man wrote: There's something weird going on behind the scenes. It's as if the FIA banned something on the Ferrari and then allowed it back again now that the championship is pretty much over to prevent Mercedes from walking the last few races. I can't think of any other explanation, the change in Ferrari's competitiveness is much too big for it to just be circuit related.

The only other time I can recall seeing such a dramatic and sudden performance swing back and forth was the sudden banning and un-banning of exhaust blown diffusers during 2011.
Perhaps you are looking in the wrong garage for explanations? It's a rumour that Merc had to change the rims they introduced in Singapore.
I think you need a source for that?
It's all over other sites, just not here, it will soon find it's way here too.
Apparently Merc introduced a new rim in Singapore that gone banned now, and suddenly a drop in Merc tyre performance.
I have just googled 'Mercedes f1 wheel rims' and got this:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13944 ... rari-query

So unless you want to provide some sort of source to back up your claim, I'll assume that you're WUMing.
Why does this not surprise me? :uhoh:
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F1_Ernie
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by F1_Ernie »

pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
j man wrote: There's something weird going on behind the scenes. It's as if the FIA banned something on the Ferrari and then allowed it back again now that the championship is pretty much over to prevent Mercedes from walking the last few races. I can't think of any other explanation, the change in Ferrari's competitiveness is much too big for it to just be circuit related.

The only other time I can recall seeing such a dramatic and sudden performance swing back and forth was the sudden banning and un-banning of exhaust blown diffusers during 2011.
Perhaps you are looking in the wrong garage for explanations? It's a rumour that Merc had to change the rims they introduced in Singapore.
I think you need a source for that?
It's all over other sites, just not here, it will soon find it's way here too.
Apparently Merc introduced a new rim in Singapore that gone banned now, and suddenly a drop in Merc tyre performance.
That being the case it's not that hard to give a link to any of the sites.
I have only seen it on one person's Twitter account.

It's to do with the upgrades. https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13956 ... ade-errors
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AnRs
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by AnRs »

pokerman wrote: Why does this not surprise me? :uhoh:
5 sec of google..

https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comme ... es_in_the/

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Covalent
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by Covalent »

pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
j man wrote:
sandman1347 wrote: Did the FIA remove that sensor?
There's something weird going on behind the scenes. It's as if the FIA banned something on the Ferrari and then allowed it back again now that the championship is pretty much over to prevent Mercedes from walking the last few races. I can't think of any other explanation, the change in Ferrari's competitiveness is much too big for it to just be circuit related.

The only other time I can recall seeing such a dramatic and sudden performance swing back and forth was the sudden banning and un-banning of exhaust blown diffusers during 2011.
No it was simply the upgrades that Ferrari introduced after Singapore which also had the affect of taking away Ferrari's accelerating advantage which then lead to theories about the FIA having fitted another sensor and Ferrari were cheating all along etc. etc.

Now they are back to Singapore spec once again we see Ferrari has having the fastest car, Hamilton very much stole another pole in Austin.
Or, they're virtually equal.
Not this again, how do you measure virtually equal, one tenth, two tenths, three tenths?
You don't, otherwise I'd have given a millisecond figure. It's close enough between them that assuming they're not identical in speed, the difference is too small to be able to determine it accurately enough. Either one could be ahead but if you want me to give a figure I'd say it's no more than a tenth or two in Austin.

Regarding the "Not this again", when have I said this before and why would I not be allowed to bring it up?

F1_Ernie
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by F1_Ernie »

Johnson wrote:These are always a million times more telling than top speed data -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GH-Uv6OKeDc

I love that the FIA put these together, so interesting to see where time is won and lost. Hamilton is 0.3 down after only about 20 seconds. But claws it all back through the esses.

The amazing thing about that lap was during the 92 second lap, Hamilton was ahead of Vettel for 6 seconds of it (2 seconds in the middle of the lap and the last 4 seconds). The other 86 seconds, Vettel was ahead by usually 0.050-0.200 on average.

Given that Bottas was 0.3 off Kimi and Kimi just 0.070 off Lewis and Vettel made a small error on his lap and was just 0.010 ahead of Kimi - Ferrari was the car to have in qualifying. Very marginal, but this is my reading of it.

It could be due to the wash out of Friday but Ferrari was also the car for the race, we always get odd races when Friday is rained off (Spa 2012 for example) and lots of gambles are made with setup and there is of course no long run data come race day. But Ferrari are back based on this weekend.
How much time do you think Ferrari made up on the straights? I have read 0.6 over the lap.
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by pokerman »

AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote: Why does this not surprise me? :uhoh:
5 sec of google..

https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comme ... es_in_the/
Fair enough so Ferrari managed to get them banned because of an unproven aerodynamic advantage.
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Caserole of Nonsense
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by Caserole of Nonsense »

the ferrari likes higher track temps. the merc stronger when its cooler. this probably had some effect yesterday. but the only way to really be sure is for someone who can analyse the gps data and compare it other races to see if the "surge" is back. thats why the teams were questioning ferrari in the first place. scarbs video said it went away when ferrari were struggling compared to say at spa. if its back then ferrari have found a work around. i would be sceptical that it would take even ferrari 3 races to realise an upgrade package wasnt working. sounds like a an excuse for something else to me, like working to get their trick deployment working again.

pokerman
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by pokerman »

Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
j man wrote: There's something weird going on behind the scenes. It's as if the FIA banned something on the Ferrari and then allowed it back again now that the championship is pretty much over to prevent Mercedes from walking the last few races. I can't think of any other explanation, the change in Ferrari's competitiveness is much too big for it to just be circuit related.

The only other time I can recall seeing such a dramatic and sudden performance swing back and forth was the sudden banning and un-banning of exhaust blown diffusers during 2011.
No it was simply the upgrades that Ferrari introduced after Singapore which also had the affect of taking away Ferrari's accelerating advantage which then lead to theories about the FIA having fitted another sensor and Ferrari were cheating all along etc. etc.

Now they are back to Singapore spec once again we see Ferrari has having the fastest car, Hamilton very much stole another pole in Austin.
Or, they're virtually equal.
Not this again, how do you measure virtually equal, one tenth, two tenths, three tenths?
You don't, otherwise I'd have given a millisecond figure. It's close enough between them that assuming they're not identical in speed, the difference is too small to be able to determine it accurately enough. Either one could be ahead but if you want me to give a figure I'd say it's no more than a tenth or two in Austin.

Regarding the "Not this again", when have I said this before and why would I not be allowed to bring it up?
Because we've already gone through all this and you're basically late to the party, 2 tenths is not close to equal it's the kind of difference you get between a tier 1 and a tier 2 driver and we wouldn't be saying that these drivers are close to equal, but it is a nice way of glossing over any Ferrari performance advantage.
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2013: 5th Place
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pokerman
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by pokerman »

Caserole of Nonsense wrote:the ferrari likes higher track temps. the merc stronger when its cooler. this probably had some effect yesterday. but the only way to really be sure is for someone who can analyse the gps data and compare it other races to see if the "surge" is back. thats why the teams were questioning ferrari in the first place. scarbs video said it went away when ferrari were struggling compared to say at spa. if its back then ferrari have found a work around. i would be sceptical that it would take even ferrari 3 races to realise an upgrade package wasnt working. sounds like a an excuse for something else to me, like working to get their trick deployment working again.
The surge was there in Singapore and went away in Sochi and Japan when they introduced their upgrade package, they took the package off in Austin and now the surge is back again.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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pokerman
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by pokerman »

F1_Ernie wrote:
Johnson wrote:These are always a million times more telling than top speed data -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GH-Uv6OKeDc

I love that the FIA put these together, so interesting to see where time is won and lost. Hamilton is 0.3 down after only about 20 seconds. But claws it all back through the esses.

The amazing thing about that lap was during the 92 second lap, Hamilton was ahead of Vettel for 6 seconds of it (2 seconds in the middle of the lap and the last 4 seconds). The other 86 seconds, Vettel was ahead by usually 0.050-0.200 on average.

Given that Bottas was 0.3 off Kimi and Kimi just 0.070 off Lewis and Vettel made a small error on his lap and was just 0.010 ahead of Kimi - Ferrari was the car to have in qualifying. Very marginal, but this is my reading of it.

It could be due to the wash out of Friday but Ferrari was also the car for the race, we always get odd races when Friday is rained off (Spa 2012 for example) and lots of gambles are made with setup and there is of course no long run data come race day. But Ferrari are back based on this weekend.
How much time do you think Ferrari made up on the straights? I have read 0.6 over the lap.
That's the amount of performance they were said to have lost post Singapore so seems about right.
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Covalent
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by Covalent »

pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote: No it was simply the upgrades that Ferrari introduced after Singapore which also had the affect of taking away Ferrari's accelerating advantage which then lead to theories about the FIA having fitted another sensor and Ferrari were cheating all along etc. etc.

Now they are back to Singapore spec once again we see Ferrari has having the fastest car, Hamilton very much stole another pole in Austin.
Or, they're virtually equal.
Not this again, how do you measure virtually equal, one tenth, two tenths, three tenths?
You don't, otherwise I'd have given a millisecond figure. It's close enough between them that assuming they're not identical in speed, the difference is too small to be able to determine it accurately enough. Either one could be ahead but if you want me to give a figure I'd say it's no more than a tenth or two in Austin.

Regarding the "Not this again", when have I said this before and why would I not be allowed to bring it up?
Because we've already gone through all this and you're basically late to the party, 2 tenths is not close to equal it's the kind of difference you get between a tier 1 and a tier 2 driver and we wouldn't be saying that these drivers are close to equal, but it is a nice way of glossing over any Ferrari performance advantage.
I have a suspicion you wouldn't be happy if I said Merc was quicker by half a tenth? Point being that we don't "see Ferrari has having the fastest car".

Caserole of Nonsense
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by Caserole of Nonsense »

pokerman wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:the ferrari likes higher track temps. the merc stronger when its cooler. this probably had some effect yesterday. but the only way to really be sure is for someone who can analyse the gps data and compare it other races to see if the "surge" is back. thats why the teams were questioning ferrari in the first place. scarbs video said it went away when ferrari were struggling compared to say at spa. if its back then ferrari have found a work around. i would be sceptical that it would take even ferrari 3 races to realise an upgrade package wasnt working. sounds like a an excuse for something else to me, like working to get their trick deployment working again.
The surge was there in Singapore and went away in Sochi and Japan when they introduced their upgrade package, they took the package off in Austin and now the surge is back again.
if we are taking about an aero upgrade package i cant see how that would effect a surge. it would effect the overall pace and maybe a lesser surge, if they had managed to increase drag, but surely it would still be there. does the lack of surge relate to the 2nd sensor. dont think we have been told when it was fitted.

also they have so many sensors monitoring the cars they can see pretty much straight away if upgrades are working or not. i dont know what exactly the upgrade package was but its still a bit fishy to me.

anyone know if they raced the new floor kimi was trying on friday?

pokerman
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by pokerman »

Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote: Or, they're virtually equal.
Not this again, how do you measure virtually equal, one tenth, two tenths, three tenths?
You don't, otherwise I'd have given a millisecond figure. It's close enough between them that assuming they're not identical in speed, the difference is too small to be able to determine it accurately enough. Either one could be ahead but if you want me to give a figure I'd say it's no more than a tenth or two in Austin.

Regarding the "Not this again", when have I said this before and why would I not be allowed to bring it up?
Because we've already gone through all this and you're basically late to the party, 2 tenths is not close to equal it's the kind of difference you get between a tier 1 and a tier 2 driver and we wouldn't be saying that these drivers are close to equal, but it is a nice way of glossing over any Ferrari performance advantage.
I have a suspicion you wouldn't be happy if I said Merc was quicker by half a tenth? Point being that we don't "see Ferrari has having the fastest car".
Half a tenth is clearly not the same as 2 tenths, I'm confused by the we as in you perhaps?
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pokerman
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by pokerman »

Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:the ferrari likes higher track temps. the merc stronger when its cooler. this probably had some effect yesterday. but the only way to really be sure is for someone who can analyse the gps data and compare it other races to see if the "surge" is back. thats why the teams were questioning ferrari in the first place. scarbs video said it went away when ferrari were struggling compared to say at spa. if its back then ferrari have found a work around. i would be sceptical that it would take even ferrari 3 races to realise an upgrade package wasnt working. sounds like a an excuse for something else to me, like working to get their trick deployment working again.
The surge was there in Singapore and went away in Sochi and Japan when they introduced their upgrade package, they took the package off in Austin and now the surge is back again.
if we are taking about an aero upgrade package i cant see how that would effect a surge. it would effect the overall pace and maybe a lesser surge, if they had managed to increase drag, but surely it would still be there. does the lack of surge relate to the 2nd sensor. dont think we have been told when it was fitted.

also they have so many sensors monitoring the cars they can see pretty much straight away if upgrades are working or not. i dont know what exactly the upgrade package was but its still a bit fishy to me.

anyone know if they raced the new floor kimi was trying on friday?
I guess it's easy to have conspiracy theories, Mercedes start to win consistently then Ferrari get their surge back whilst Mercedes have their new rear wheel design banned which was perfectly alright before.
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by Covalent »

pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote: Not this again, how do you measure virtually equal, one tenth, two tenths, three tenths?
You don't, otherwise I'd have given a millisecond figure. It's close enough between them that assuming they're not identical in speed, the difference is too small to be able to determine it accurately enough. Either one could be ahead but if you want me to give a figure I'd say it's no more than a tenth or two in Austin.

Regarding the "Not this again", when have I said this before and why would I not be allowed to bring it up?
Because we've already gone through all this and you're basically late to the party, 2 tenths is not close to equal it's the kind of difference you get between a tier 1 and a tier 2 driver and we wouldn't be saying that these drivers are close to equal, but it is a nice way of glossing over any Ferrari performance advantage.
I have a suspicion you wouldn't be happy if I said Merc was quicker by half a tenth? Point being that we don't "see Ferrari has having the fastest car".
Half a tenth is clearly not the same as 2 tenths, I'm confused by the we as in you perhaps?
Yes the sole reason I said "we" is that you said "we see Ferrari has having the fastest car". We as in you?

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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by pokerman »

Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote: You don't, otherwise I'd have given a millisecond figure. It's close enough between them that assuming they're not identical in speed, the difference is too small to be able to determine it accurately enough. Either one could be ahead but if you want me to give a figure I'd say it's no more than a tenth or two in Austin.

Regarding the "Not this again", when have I said this before and why would I not be allowed to bring it up?
Because we've already gone through all this and you're basically late to the party, 2 tenths is not close to equal it's the kind of difference you get between a tier 1 and a tier 2 driver and we wouldn't be saying that these drivers are close to equal, but it is a nice way of glossing over any Ferrari performance advantage.
I have a suspicion you wouldn't be happy if I said Merc was quicker by half a tenth? Point being that we don't "see Ferrari has having the fastest car".
Half a tenth is clearly not the same as 2 tenths, I'm confused by the we as in you perhaps?
Yes the sole reason I said "we" is that you said "we see Ferrari has having the fastest car". We as in you?
We as in several people have already discussed this whilst you yourself it seems have missed out several pages of the thread.
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by Invade »

Not only am I quite sure Ferrari were faster but also that Mercedes had the weakest tyre management, as evidenced by Bottas struggling hugely on the one-stopper.

A fairly close but clear Ferrari weekend at the US GP, which was against my expectation. Clearly it's been pointless to expect anything this season.

As for Mercedes struggling with the rear tyres, the story about filling in holes in the rims probably contributed to it.

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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by F1_Ernie »

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13957 ... 1532615028

More information on Mercedes changing the wheel rims.
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by pokerman »

F1_Ernie wrote:https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13957 ... 1532615028

More information on Mercedes changing the wheel rims.
Cheers :thumbup:
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by Mercedes-Benz »

RBR cannot compete in qualifying but they seems to have to best race pace. Max pitted early to undercut Bottas and he had softer tyre and it was obviously much superior to Bottas harder tyre not only in pace but longevity as well. Kimi pitted little earlier and was on harder tyre as well. If I remember correctly the gap was 4sec and it came down to 1sec at the end 8O Pretty amazing how good RBR are in race compared to qualifying. Ferrari also seems to have improved. I guess wet Friday benefited them as no one knew how tyres would perform.
Sir Stirling Moss "Quite frankly, Kimi Raikkonen is the fastest driver in the world"

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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by Teddy007 »

Mercedes-Benz wrote:RBR cannot compete in qualifying but they seems to have to best race pace. Max pitted early to undercut Bottas and he had softer tyre and it was obviously much superior to Bottas harder tyre not only in pace but longevity as well. Kimi pitted little earlier and was on harder tyre as well. If I remember correctly the gap was 4sec and it came down to 1sec at the end 8O Pretty amazing how good RBR are in race compared to qualifying. Ferrari also seems to have improved. I guess wet Friday benefited them as no one knew how tyres would perform.
This weekend summed up a lot of the season.

Lewis didn't really make any major mistakes costing him half a dozen places.
RBR have reliability issues but a very good race package.
Ferrari revert their car and are the ones to beat.
A simple mistake can cost you a place or two but a big mistake can cost you half a dozen places.
Qualifying helps but doesn't dictate.
Ferrari/Merc/RBR are very close to each other.
There seems to be one driver leaping over the other in each team.
Rare performances from the '2nd' drivers.

If Lewis does win the title - it really shows how consistent, solid and generally the best out of the top crop. The fact he wasn't prepared to take heavy risks Vs Max matters. He could have easily had the same incident as Vettel did.. maybe costing him a place to Seb/Bot.

Merc have been accused of sand bagging this whole season - funny how that comment has magically vanished over a single race.

I hope Lewis doesn't retire and we get a battle between him, Max and Sebastian next season. Also.... if RBR can't improve their car any further.. how long until Merc/Ferrari snap up Max.

F1 is predictable... not.

AnRs
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by AnRs »

Teddy007 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:RBR cannot compete in qualifying but they seems to have to best race pace. Max pitted early to undercut Bottas and he had softer tyre and it was obviously much superior to Bottas harder tyre not only in pace but longevity as well. Kimi pitted little earlier and was on harder tyre as well. If I remember correctly the gap was 4sec and it came down to 1sec at the end 8O Pretty amazing how good RBR are in race compared to qualifying. Ferrari also seems to have improved. I guess wet Friday benefited them as no one knew how tyres would perform.
This weekend summed up a lot of the season.

Lewis didn't really make any major mistakes costing him half a dozen places.
RBR have reliability issues but a very good race package.
Ferrari revert their car and are the ones to beat.
A simple mistake can cost you a place or two but a big mistake can cost you half a dozen places.
Qualifying helps but doesn't dictate.
Ferrari/Merc/RBR are very close to each other.
There seems to be one driver leaping over the other in each team.
Rare performances from the '2nd' drivers.

If Lewis does win the title - it really shows how consistent, solid and generally the best out of the top crop. The fact he wasn't prepared to take heavy risks Vs Max matters. He could have easily had the same incident as Vettel did.. maybe costing him a place to Seb/Bot.

Merc have been accused of sand bagging this whole season - funny how that comment has magically vanished over a single race.

I hope Lewis doesn't retire and we get a battle between him, Max and Sebastian next season. Also.... if RBR can't improve their car any further.. how long until Merc/Ferrari snap up Max.

F1 is predictable... not.
Unpredictable with Merc in charge for the 5th year in a row, challenged by a closer Ferrari and an unreliable Red Bull?
We've seen that for a while now, the Merc drivers taking it more cautious than ever and established a #2 bringing more excitement?

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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

10-8 to Ferrari after USA.

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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by pokerman »

Teddy007 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:RBR cannot compete in qualifying but they seems to have to best race pace. Max pitted early to undercut Bottas and he had softer tyre and it was obviously much superior to Bottas harder tyre not only in pace but longevity as well. Kimi pitted little earlier and was on harder tyre as well. If I remember correctly the gap was 4sec and it came down to 1sec at the end 8O Pretty amazing how good RBR are in race compared to qualifying. Ferrari also seems to have improved. I guess wet Friday benefited them as no one knew how tyres would perform.
This weekend summed up a lot of the season.

Lewis didn't really make any major mistakes costing him half a dozen places.
RBR have reliability issues but a very good race package.
Ferrari revert their car and are the ones to beat.
A simple mistake can cost you a place or two but a big mistake can cost you half a dozen places.
Qualifying helps but doesn't dictate.
Ferrari/Merc/RBR are very close to each other.
There seems to be one driver leaping over the other in each team.
Rare performances from the '2nd' drivers.

If Lewis does win the title - it really shows how consistent, solid and generally the best out of the top crop. The fact he wasn't prepared to take heavy risks Vs Max matters. He could have easily had the same incident as Vettel did.. maybe costing him a place to Seb/Bot.

Merc have been accused of sand bagging this whole season - funny how that comment has magically vanished over a single race.

I hope Lewis doesn't retire and we get a battle between him, Max and Sebastian next season. Also.... if RBR can't improve their car any further.. how long until Merc/Ferrari snap up Max.

F1 is predictable... not.
I don't understand the retirement angle?
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by tootsie323 »

If I were an F1-level driver, and (in present hindsight) had a straight choice between the Merc and Ferrari (I'm assuming the Red Bull is not on a par with these despite some great showings) to challenge for this year's championship with, I'd pick the Merc.
On that basis I'd say that it is the better car of the two over the season.
Where I'm going, I don't need roads

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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by pokerman »

AnRs wrote:
Teddy007 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:RBR cannot compete in qualifying but they seems to have to best race pace. Max pitted early to undercut Bottas and he had softer tyre and it was obviously much superior to Bottas harder tyre not only in pace but longevity as well. Kimi pitted little earlier and was on harder tyre as well. If I remember correctly the gap was 4sec and it came down to 1sec at the end 8O Pretty amazing how good RBR are in race compared to qualifying. Ferrari also seems to have improved. I guess wet Friday benefited them as no one knew how tyres would perform.
This weekend summed up a lot of the season.

Lewis didn't really make any major mistakes costing him half a dozen places.
RBR have reliability issues but a very good race package.
Ferrari revert their car and are the ones to beat.
A simple mistake can cost you a place or two but a big mistake can cost you half a dozen places.
Qualifying helps but doesn't dictate.
Ferrari/Merc/RBR are very close to each other.
There seems to be one driver leaping over the other in each team.
Rare performances from the '2nd' drivers.

If Lewis does win the title - it really shows how consistent, solid and generally the best out of the top crop. The fact he wasn't prepared to take heavy risks Vs Max matters. He could have easily had the same incident as Vettel did.. maybe costing him a place to Seb/Bot.

Merc have been accused of sand bagging this whole season - funny how that comment has magically vanished over a single race.

I hope Lewis doesn't retire and we get a battle between him, Max and Sebastian next season. Also.... if RBR can't improve their car any further.. how long until Merc/Ferrari snap up Max.

F1 is predictable... not.
Unpredictable with Merc in charge for the 5th year in a row, challenged by a closer Ferrari and an unreliable Red Bull?
We've seen that for a while now, the Merc drivers taking it more cautious than ever and established a #2 bringing more excitement?
Challenged by a faster Ferrari.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by pokerman »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:10-8 to Ferrari after USA.
Seems about right.
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2014: Champion
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by pokerman »

tootsie323 wrote:If I were an F1-level driver, and (in present hindsight) had a straight choice between the Merc and Ferrari (I'm assuming the Red Bull is not on a par with these despite some great showings) to challenge for this year's championship with, I'd pick the Merc.
On that basis I'd say that it is the better car of the two over the season.
Because Vettel wouldn't make the same mistakes in the Mercedes?
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2014: Champion
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AnRs
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by AnRs »

pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
Teddy007 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:RBR cannot compete in qualifying but they seems to have to best race pace. Max pitted early to undercut Bottas and he had softer tyre and it was obviously much superior to Bottas harder tyre not only in pace but longevity as well. Kimi pitted little earlier and was on harder tyre as well. If I remember correctly the gap was 4sec and it came down to 1sec at the end 8O Pretty amazing how good RBR are in race compared to qualifying. Ferrari also seems to have improved. I guess wet Friday benefited them as no one knew how tyres would perform.
This weekend summed up a lot of the season.

Lewis didn't really make any major mistakes costing him half a dozen places.
RBR have reliability issues but a very good race package.
Ferrari revert their car and are the ones to beat.
A simple mistake can cost you a place or two but a big mistake can cost you half a dozen places.
Qualifying helps but doesn't dictate.
Ferrari/Merc/RBR are very close to each other.
There seems to be one driver leaping over the other in each team.
Rare performances from the '2nd' drivers.

If Lewis does win the title - it really shows how consistent, solid and generally the best out of the top crop. The fact he wasn't prepared to take heavy risks Vs Max matters. He could have easily had the same incident as Vettel did.. maybe costing him a place to Seb/Bot.

Merc have been accused of sand bagging this whole season - funny how that comment has magically vanished over a single race.

I hope Lewis doesn't retire and we get a battle between him, Max and Sebastian next season. Also.... if RBR can't improve their car any further.. how long until Merc/Ferrari snap up Max.

F1 is predictable... not.
Unpredictable with Merc in charge for the 5th year in a row, challenged by a closer Ferrari and an unreliable Red Bull?
We've seen that for a while now, the Merc drivers taking it more cautious than ever and established a #2 bringing more excitement?
Challenged by a faster Ferrari.
Somehow I have understood now that that is your opinion, you haven't been unclear at all : )

pokerman
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by pokerman »

AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
Teddy007 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:RBR cannot compete in qualifying but they seems to have to best race pace. Max pitted early to undercut Bottas and he had softer tyre and it was obviously much superior to Bottas harder tyre not only in pace but longevity as well. Kimi pitted little earlier and was on harder tyre as well. If I remember correctly the gap was 4sec and it came down to 1sec at the end 8O Pretty amazing how good RBR are in race compared to qualifying. Ferrari also seems to have improved. I guess wet Friday benefited them as no one knew how tyres would perform.
This weekend summed up a lot of the season.

Lewis didn't really make any major mistakes costing him half a dozen places.
RBR have reliability issues but a very good race package.
Ferrari revert their car and are the ones to beat.
A simple mistake can cost you a place or two but a big mistake can cost you half a dozen places.
Qualifying helps but doesn't dictate.
Ferrari/Merc/RBR are very close to each other.
There seems to be one driver leaping over the other in each team.
Rare performances from the '2nd' drivers.

If Lewis does win the title - it really shows how consistent, solid and generally the best out of the top crop. The fact he wasn't prepared to take heavy risks Vs Max matters. He could have easily had the same incident as Vettel did.. maybe costing him a place to Seb/Bot.

Merc have been accused of sand bagging this whole season - funny how that comment has magically vanished over a single race.

I hope Lewis doesn't retire and we get a battle between him, Max and Sebastian next season. Also.... if RBR can't improve their car any further.. how long until Merc/Ferrari snap up Max.

F1 is predictable... not.
Unpredictable with Merc in charge for the 5th year in a row, challenged by a closer Ferrari and an unreliable Red Bull?
We've seen that for a while now, the Merc drivers taking it more cautious than ever and established a #2 bringing more excitement?
Challenged by a faster Ferrari.
Somehow I have understood now that that is your opinion, you haven't been unclear at all : )
Backed up by several respected sources whereas in fact what you say is merely just your opinion.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

AnRs
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Re: [Merged] Mercedes v Ferrari v Red Bull - 2018 edition

Post by AnRs »

pokerman wrote: Backed up by several respected sources whereas in fact what you say is merely just your opinion.
If you where as confident in that that you try to make it you wouldn't jump at anything without even reading first.
You will dismiss anything you read that doesn't back up your opinion so that's ok.

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