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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:15 pm 
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I just wanted to start a new thread about this because I feel it's important to clear up the confusion about Raikkonen's qualifying.

He was the only one on the PRIME tyre - they chose not to use a set of soft tyres in Q1 (the only person to do that, I believe), and even so in the first two sectors he was easily quick enough to get through to Q2, but then a mistake on the exit of turn 12 meant he aborted and decided to go for another run, but a communication error (whoever was to blame, not sure) meant he backed off too much, not knowing how close he was to the end of the session and thus disaster struck. But having one less set of soft tyres but being in Q3 is better than having all the tyres in the world but starting 17th.

So when people say "what a disaster, not good enough to be back in F1, beaten by his teammate" etc etc. It's actually rather disingenuous and doesn't take into account the facts.

I felt the need for a new thread but I've attempted to explain in a couple of threads, but it's been overlooked.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:42 pm 
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For what it's worth, I agree with you. It looked like a plain and simple, first race of the season, total cock up!


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:43 pm 
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Gotta love the fanz.

He cocked up, no ones fault but his own. No evidence either that had he not ballsed it up that he would have been ahead of his team mate - other than blind fandom that believes he would have stuck it on pole.

(He wouldn't)

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:43 pm 
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Find it rather odd the team wanted Romain on softs to make sure he got through but did not mandate the same for Kimi's car.... This happened to Webber last year in China... He made a great run to 3rd because he had his best tires not used, but none the less


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:45 pm 
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Seanie wrote:
Gotta love the fanz.

He cocked up, no ones fault but his own. No evidence either that had he not ballsed it up that he would have been ahead of his team mate - other than blind fandom that believes he would have stuck it on pole.

(He wouldn't)



I am pretty sure he said in his post Kimi made an error... He did not leave that out. His point was all the other top guys used soft tires which we all know is worth about a full second and Kimi did not get a chance to use those

Alonso spun out today, Champs make errors no one is denying that


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:47 pm 
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Hakkattack wrote:
Seanie wrote:
Gotta love the fanz.

He cocked up, no ones fault but his own. No evidence either that had he not ballsed it up that he would have been ahead of his team mate - other than blind fandom that believes he would have stuck it on pole.

(He wouldn't)



I am pretty sure he said in his post Kimi made an error... He did not leave that out. His point was all the other top guys used soft tires which we all know is worth about a full second and Kimi did not get a chance to use those

Alonso spun out today, Champs make errors no one is denying that
Its the excuses though. Sure he could have gone on to put softs on and post a decent time, but the fact is he didn't.

Ifs buts and or maybes don't win championships.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:51 pm 
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You sure I thought the Maccas and the like stayed on the primes for Q1.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:53 pm 
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Fair enough, Raikkonen was easily quick enough to make Q2 but any further than that, who knows? Having watched the practice sessions, I don't think he would've outqualified Grosjean and take nothing away from Grosjean; he was fantastic today.

I may be wrong but didn't the McLarens, Red Bulls and possibly Mercs only use primes in Q1 aswell?


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:55 pm 
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AycheAyeEmm wrote:
Fair enough, Raikkonen was easily quick enough to make Q2 but any further than that, who knows? Having watched the practice sessions, I don't think he would've outqualified Grosjean and take nothing away from Grosjean; he was fantastic today.

I may be wrong but didn't the McLarens, Red Bulls and possibly Mercs only use primes in Q1 aswell?



That is jus quessing.

The fact, he made an error and did not have enough time to do another lap.

Look at the timing, this year it was close between the pole and Kimi.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:57 pm 
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Seanie wrote:
Gotta love the fanz.

He cocked up, no ones fault but his own.
You say there's no evidence he would have been ahead of his team mate; I agree. But please help me to locate the evidence that Räikkönen was alone in making the error that saw him fail to know how much time he really had left to start another lap? With somebody always just a radio transmission away, and that somebody having access to exactly that bit of information required to direct his driver, just how did Räikkönen manage to not be aware?

Seanie wrote:
No evidence either that had he not ballsed it up that he would have been ahead of his team mate - other than blind fandom that believes he would have stuck it on pole.

(He wouldn't)
I agree the chances of that would have been very slim, with the sister car being all of nearly 0.4s off the pole time. But a second row seems to have been a distinct possibility, wouldn't you agree?

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:00 pm 
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SwSpeed wrote:
AycheAyeEmm wrote:
Fair enough, Raikkonen was easily quick enough to make Q2 but any further than that, who knows? Having watched the practice sessions, I don't think he would've outqualified Grosjean and take nothing away from Grosjean; he was fantastic today.

I may be wrong but didn't the McLarens, Red Bulls and possibly Mercs only use primes in Q1 aswell?



That is jus quessing.

The fact, he made an error and did not have enough time to do another lap.

Look at the timing, this year it was close between the pole and Kimi.


Of course it's just guessing. How can anyone say for sure whether he would've outqualified Grosjean? I'm just stating my opinion.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:01 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
You sure I thought the Maccas and the like stayed on the primes for Q1.

My impression too. Macs, Bulls & Lotus all stayed on primes. Mercs too I beleive

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:05 pm 
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Raifosa wrote:
Johnston wrote:
You sure I thought the Maccas and the like stayed on the primes for Q1.

My impression too. Macs, Bulls & Lotus all stayed on primes. Mercs too I beleive



Both Loti on Primes?

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:05 pm 
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Dude, plenty of teams got through Q1 on primes. The Maccas, Mercs and Red Bulls all used primes in that session. Grosjean was on options though but he probably didn't have to be.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:08 pm 
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Quote:
You say there's no evidence he would have been ahead of his team mate; I agree. But please help me to locate the evidence that Räikkönen was alone in making the error that saw him fail to know how much time he really had left to start another lap? With somebody always just a radio transmission away, and that somebody having access to exactly that bit of information required to direct his driver, just how did Räikkönen manage to not be aware?


Part of the problems regarding the timing issues was that he had already done 2 laps which he had to back out of due to traffic. If those had been on the pace he wouldnt have needed the 3rd lap or he would have had time to do it. Yes the pit should have told him to stay on it.

Does anyone actually know how long the light had been red before he crossed the line.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:12 pm 
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It seemed like a pretty standard timing cock up really. Hamilton did it last year, Webber has done it, Button, Massa.

It happens. The team and Raikkonen will kick themselves and get on with it. No more than that.

For anybody to claim it means Raikkonen isn't up to any more, is clearly ridiculous.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:13 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
Raifosa wrote:
Johnston wrote:
You sure I thought the Maccas and the like stayed on the primes for Q1.

My impression too. Macs, Bulls & Lotus all stayed on primes. Mercs too I beleive



Both Loti on Primes?

Yes, BigJohn went through to Q2 on primes.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:17 pm 
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stealthdog wrote:
Quote:
You say there's no evidence he would have been ahead of his team mate; I agree. But please help me to locate the evidence that Räikkönen was alone in making the error that saw him fail to know how much time he really had left to start another lap? With somebody always just a radio transmission away, and that somebody having access to exactly that bit of information required to direct his driver, just how did Räikkönen manage to not be aware?


Part of the problems regarding the timing issues was that he had already done 2 laps which he had to back out of due to traffic. If those had been on the pace he wouldnt have needed the 3rd lap or he would have had time to do it. Yes the pit should have told him to stay on it.

Does anyone actually know how long the light had been red before he crossed the line.


He was like 4 seconds short or so. He just exited the final corner when the time ran out. But yes, all the top teams ran on primes in Q1, and before he made the mistake, he was just 0.14s off the fastest time. About as clear an example of bad circumstances as you can get.

I wonder where people get the idea that Grosjean oblitterated him in practice though. P1 Kimi was a second faster, P3 Romain was a second faster. P2 was rain affected. Obviously they were testing different set-ups. Raikkonen has shown plenty of times that he's great in fighting through the field and pulling off some stunt, so it will be interesting to see tomorrow.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:24 pm 
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No excuses Kimi messed up. Gros wins this battle, no point guessing what would have happened in an alternate reality. Obv there are a lot of opportunist using this time to bug Kimi fan's and that comes with big mistakes. Let's hope for a good race! Go Kimi Go!


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:28 pm 
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AycheAyeEmm wrote:
SwSpeed wrote:
AycheAyeEmm wrote:
Fair enough, Raikkonen was easily quick enough to make Q2 but any further than that, who knows? Having watched the practice sessions, I don't think he would've outqualified Grosjean and take nothing away from Grosjean; he was fantastic today.

I may be wrong but didn't the McLarens, Red Bulls and possibly Mercs only use primes in Q1 aswell?



That is jus quessing.

The fact, he made an error and did not have enough time to do another lap.

Look at the timing, this year it was close between the pole and Kimi.


Of course it's just guessing. How can anyone say for sure whether he would've outqualified Grosjean? I'm just stating my opinion.


You just said.
It is just a waste to even try to look who was faster at this point.

Grosjean made it because RB and Ferrari was not up really quick today. The really interesting question is why?
Kimi could be up there too...

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:30 pm 
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mnmracer wrote:
stealthdog wrote:
Quote:
You say there's no evidence he would have been ahead of his team mate; I agree. But please help me to locate the evidence that Räikkönen was alone in making the error that saw him fail to know how much time he really had left to start another lap? With somebody always just a radio transmission away, and that somebody having access to exactly that bit of information required to direct his driver, just how did Räikkönen manage to not be aware?


Part of the problems regarding the timing issues was that he had already done 2 laps which he had to back out of due to traffic. If those had been on the pace he wouldnt have needed the 3rd lap or he would have had time to do it. Yes the pit should have told him to stay on it.

Does anyone actually know how long the light had been red before he crossed the line.


He was like 4 seconds short or so. He just exited the final corner when the time ran out. But yes, all the top teams ran on primes in Q1, and before he made the mistake, he was just 0.14s off the fastest time. About as clear an example of bad circumstances as you can get.

I wonder where people get the idea that Grosjean oblitterated him in practice though. P1 Kimi was a second faster, P3 Romain was a second faster. P2 was rain affected. Obviously they were testing different set-ups. Raikkonen has shown plenty of times that he's great in fighting through the field and pulling off some stunt, so it will be interesting to see tomorrow.


In that case he probably wouldnt have beaten the chequered flag even if he had stayed on it.

I think kimi would have been within 3 tenths of grosjean. grosjean has looked more comfortable with his car in general. Its just been a bad start. only 34 laps in all the practice sessions isnt enough after 2 years out and 2 days missed testing. grosjean also has been away from f1 but gp2 will have kept his eye in so to speak.


Last edited by stealthdog on Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:33 pm 
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Sammydj wrote:
No excuses Kimi messed up. Gros wins this battle, no point guessing what would have happened in an alternate reality. Obv there are a lot of opportunist using this time to bug Kimi fan's and that comes with big mistakes. Let's hope for a good race! Go Kimi Go!

Tale as old as time though (well 60 odd years)

Team mate is only doing well because team mate is having a bad race/season.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:34 pm 
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sgt.hartman wrote:
I just wanted to start a new thread about this because I feel it's important to clear up the confusion about Raikkonen's qualifying.

He was the only one on the PRIME tyre - they chose not to use a set of soft tyres in Q1 (the only person to do that, I believe), and even so in the first two sectors he was easily quick enough to get through to Q2, but then a mistake on the exit of turn 12 meant he aborted and decided to go for another run, but a communication error (whoever was to blame, not sure) meant he backed off too much, not knowing how close he was to the end of the session and thus disaster struck. But having one less set of soft tyres but being in Q3 is better than having all the tyres in the world but starting 17th.

So when people say "what a disaster, not good enough to be back in F1, beaten by his teammate" etc etc. It's actually rather disingenuous and doesn't take into account the facts.

I felt the need for a new thread but I've attempted to explain in a couple of threads, but it's been overlooked.


It's a shame that some people just refuse to look any deeper than what they see on the screen, because you've got it totally spot on :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:37 pm 
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benmc wrote:
sgt.hartman wrote:
I just wanted to start a new thread about this because I feel it's important to clear up the confusion about Raikkonen's qualifying.

He was the only one on the PRIME tyre - they chose not to use a set of soft tyres in Q1 (the only person to do that, I believe), and even so in the first two sectors he was easily quick enough to get through to Q2, but then a mistake on the exit of turn 12 meant he aborted and decided to go for another run, but a communication error (whoever was to blame, not sure) meant he backed off too much, not knowing how close he was to the end of the session and thus disaster struck. But having one less set of soft tyres but being in Q3 is better than having all the tyres in the world but starting 17th.

So when people say "what a disaster, not good enough to be back in F1, beaten by his teammate" etc etc. It's actually rather disingenuous and doesn't take into account the facts.

I felt the need for a new thread but I've attempted to explain in a couple of threads, but it's been overlooked.


It's a shame that some people just refuse to look any deeper than what they see on the screen, because you've got it totally spot on :thumbup:


Apart from everyone else being on options. That wasn't spot on.

At the end of the day "When the flag drops the bullshit stops"

The Flag dropped he was P18.

Testing Practice all that means fook all. When it was time to stand by his actions he blew it.

BUT we'll see what tomorrow brings. He'll maybe do a Webber.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:39 pm 
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It was just a misjudgement he was driving well enough he didn't look like a driver who had been out of F1 for a few years.

Sure, Grosjean has also been out of F1 and did very well in the same car but Grosjean has been driving open wheel not rallying and NASCAR - and he didn't mess up Q1.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:43 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
benmc wrote:
sgt.hartman wrote:
I just wanted to start a new thread about this because I feel it's important to clear up the confusion about Raikkonen's qualifying.

He was the only one on the PRIME tyre - they chose not to use a set of soft tyres in Q1 (the only person to do that, I believe), and even so in the first two sectors he was easily quick enough to get through to Q2, but then a mistake on the exit of turn 12 meant he aborted and decided to go for another run, but a communication error (whoever was to blame, not sure) meant he backed off too much, not knowing how close he was to the end of the session and thus disaster struck. But having one less set of soft tyres but being in Q3 is better than having all the tyres in the world but starting 17th.

So when people say "what a disaster, not good enough to be back in F1, beaten by his teammate" etc etc. It's actually rather disingenuous and doesn't take into account the facts.

I felt the need for a new thread but I've attempted to explain in a couple of threads, but it's been overlooked.


It's a shame that some people just refuse to look any deeper than what they see on the screen, because you've got it totally spot on :thumbup:


Apart from everyone else being on options. That wasn't spot on.

At the end of the day "When the flag drops the bullshit stops"

The Flag dropped he was P18.

Testing Practice all that means fook all. When it was time to stand by his actions he blew it.

BUT we'll see what tomorrow brings. He'll maybe do a Webber.


Though Raikkonen did it way before Webber ;)

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:50 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
Raifosa wrote:
Johnston wrote:
You sure I thought the Maccas and the like stayed on the primes for Q1.

My impression too. Macs, Bulls & Lotus all stayed on primes. Mercs too I beleive



Both Loti on Primes?


Don't be overpedantic, "both Lotus" could be perfectly OK, since we don't know if Lotus (a word that doesn't exist in latin dictionnaries) would have been 2nd or 4th declination. For example, the plural of fructus is fructus, not fructi, because it's fourth declination.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:56 pm 
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Porsan wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Raifosa wrote:
Johnston wrote:
You sure I thought the Maccas and the like stayed on the primes for Q1.

My impression too. Macs, Bulls & Lotus all stayed on primes. Mercs too I beleive



Both Loti on Primes?


Don't be overpedantic, "both Lotus" could be perfectly OK, since we don't know if Lotus (a word that doesn't exist in latin dictionnaries) would have been 2nd or 4th declination. For example, the plural of fructus is fructus, not fructi, because it's fourth declination.



Not being over pedantic. I was taking the gherkin. you may or may not remember a thread last year discussing the multiple Loti or lotuses or whatever that turned into taking thepiss out of the whole situation of multiple lotuses .

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:02 pm 
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Surely 99% of people are intelligent enough to figure out what the OP says by themselves?

Was pretty obvious Kimi messed up by going wide and therefore missed having another run, no? Have people really been discussing it further as if it's some kind of massive career comeback failure? Or are Kimi fans just making it 100% sure we all fully well know it was totally not Kimi's fault, everyone else went faster than they should of and the planets weren't alligned as predicted?


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:05 pm 
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pbchillin wrote:
Or are Kimi fans just making it 100% sure we all fully well know it was totally not Kimi's fault, everyone else went faster than they should of and the planets weren't alligned as predicted?

In some (not necessarily all) cases THIS ^ :nod: :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:05 pm 
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Kimi is very fast. He needs time to adjust to the new car and to being back in F1.
In a few races the ice man will adjust and be back to where he was.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:07 pm 
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my view is kimi was consistently slower than his team mate all weekend and that bad lap wasnt a freak event, I watched the live timer on that lap as he was on camera and he was way down in the first 2 sectors before he even apparently backed off.

he also had laps before that, he must have hit really severe traffic if he was on the pace to cause him to miss top 17. most of the drivers in Q1 hit traffic.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:17 pm 
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chrcoluk wrote:
my view is kimi was consistently slower than his team mate all weekend and that bad lap wasnt a freak event, I watched the live timer on that lap as he was on camera and he was way down in the first 2 sectors before he even apparently backed off.

he also had laps before that, he must have hit really severe traffic if he was on the pace to cause him to miss top 17. most of the drivers in Q1 hit traffic.


2 tenths down on grosjean after two sectors as confirmed by eric boullier


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:28 pm 
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Grosjean was on hards (mediums) as well, wasn't he?

Anyway Kimi has been struggling and been constantly slower than Grosjean this weekend. Q1 fail was nothing but a silly mistake that shouldn't have happened.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:30 pm 
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Get the basic facts straight first. Atleast top contenders Macca, Mercs and Bulls all where on prime tires as for Grosjean i don't know but his Q1 time indicate he was on prime too like Kimi. Ferraris started on prime but went for the option in final attempt.

Poor qually from Kimi but he will improve.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:38 pm 
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He did it on purpose so he could overtake more people.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:56 pm 
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pbchillin wrote:
Surely 99% of people are intelligent enough to figure out what the OP says by themselves?

Was pretty obvious Kimi messed up by going wide and therefore missed having another run, no? Have people really been discussing it further as if it's some kind of massive career comeback failure? Or are Kimi fans just making it 100% sure we all fully well know it was totally not Kimi's fault, everyone else went faster than they should of and the planets weren't alligned as predicted?


You would think, but the forum posts paint a different picture.

And yeah, it wasn't his best lap, but it would likely have taken him through to the next round considering he was only a couple tenths down on Grosjean. And as far as we can tell the reason he didn't get another attempt was actually because he backed off, not realizing how little time he had. I don't think going wide itself was the reason for missing another run. Kimi claimed it was a miscommunication which would seem to indicate there was some communication between him and the team.

I'll admit the Kimi fans do jump to his defense very quickly and their faith can be rather strong at times, but most of it seems to simply to point out the situation. His position in qualifying was due to two mistakes on the same lap, albeit of different kinds. I think that very few are denying that Kimi made a mistake or are asserting that he "should" be in a better position.They are simply stating that his current position is not a reflection of his pace or where he will be in the future.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:02 am 
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First race after 2 years. Give him another chance before criticizing him.

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Wow that's embarrassing. My post on this in another thread I wrote "only guy on primes" and then realised I'd read it wrong, first post here I stupidly wrote the exact same thing :-S

I meant to write was on primes unlike his teammate (words to that affect). Sorry. Sleep time now, but will read thread proper in morning.

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PLAY A RECORD KARL COS I'M GUNNA KNOCK YOU OUT!!!
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:18 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2002 4:12 pm
Posts: 1043
Location: Ohio
sgt.hartman wrote:
Wow that's embarrassing. My post on this in another thread I wrote "only guy on primes" and then realised I'd read it wrong, first post here I stupidly wrote the exact same thing :-S

I meant to write was on primes unlike his teammate (words to that affect). Sorry. Sleep time now, but will read thread proper in morning.



OK Sgt what is with the Cleveland, OH tag line on your page? I am in Ohio and grew up in NE Ohio.. are you up there? or am I missing something?


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