Bernie wants F1 to be fully electric in 2021

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dizlexik
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Bernie wants F1 to be fully electric in 2021

Post by dizlexik »

Which makes Bernie’s statement newsworthy here. He says that he wants F1 to become a “Super Formula E,” and that “the only thing you would miss would be the noise, and I do not believe that people could not come up with something to make, more or less, the old F1 noise.”

This statement also comes on the heels of several manufacturers joining Formula E, including Audi who cancelled their highly successful gas-powered Le Mans program to focus on electric racing. Bernie seems to think that this writing is on the wall, and that F1 will need to adapt sooner rather than later lest they see less manufacturer support.

https://electrek.co/2018/02/26/f1-boss- ... c-by-2021/

Personally I think the technology isn't there for F1, but in next 10-20 years it's real possibility that F1 cars will be EVs.
eeee

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Re: Bernie wants F1 to be fully electric in 2021

Post by Covalent »

Yes I agree it will probably be a bit later than what Bernie thinks but sooner or later they'll have to go fully electric to remain relevant and thus funded. The current hybrid formula is a good start and will remain so for a good number of years still.

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Re: Bernie wants F1 to be fully electric in 2021

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Why? They still have rowing, sailing, horse race etc. Just because there are alternatives, why kill the original?

I want to see a move away from this 'Road Relevance'. I don.t drive around in a helmet and fireproof suit trying to pass everything I can. ( well, I do no my bike :uhoh: )

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Re: Bernie wants F1 to be fully electric in 2021

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moby wrote:Why? They still have rowing, sailing, horse race etc. Just because there are alternatives, why kill the original?

I want to see a move away from this 'Road Relevance'. I don.t drive around in a helmet and fireproof suit trying to pass everything I can. ( well, I do no my bike :uhoh: )
It's still very long way to go. We cannot build such a quick EVs now. ICE still has huge edge over electric. Though I believe in some 30 years ICE might be rarity on the road and the technology will be there to build quick racing cars. Stick to old technology for too long and F1 will be some niche series watched by die hards with best drivers where big money, big manufactures and sponsors are.
eeee

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Re: Bernie wants F1 to be fully electric in 2021

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dizlexik wrote:
moby wrote:Why? They still have rowing, sailing, horse race etc. Just because there are alternatives, why kill the original?

I want to see a move away from this 'Road Relevance'. I don.t drive around in a helmet and fireproof suit trying to pass everything I can. ( well, I do no my bike :uhoh: )
It's still long very way to go. We cannot build such a quick EVs now. ICE still has huge edge over electric. Though I believe in some 30 years ICE might be rarity on the road and the technology will be there to build quick racing cars. Stick to old technology for too long and F1 will be some niche series watched by die hards with best drivers where big money, big manufactures and sponsors are.

Is that not what Formula E is supposed to become? I hardly ever see Horses on the road today, and when you do they are holding up traffic and carrying hardly any weight and can not stop quickly, but every weekend there are millions of people who go to watch Horse racing. There is more to watching 'motor' racing than just the newest most efficient technology, it is an ethos.

I am not saying there is not room for a 'crossover' series, but not to the extinction of Petrol engined racers.

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Re: Bernie wants F1 to be fully electric in 2021

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moby wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
moby wrote:Why? They still have rowing, sailing, horse race etc. Just because there are alternatives, why kill the original?

I want to see a move away from this 'Road Relevance'. I don.t drive around in a helmet and fireproof suit trying to pass everything I can. ( well, I do no my bike :uhoh: )
It's still long very way to go. We cannot build such a quick EVs now. ICE still has huge edge over electric. Though I believe in some 30 years ICE might be rarity on the road and the technology will be there to build quick racing cars. Stick to old technology for too long and F1 will be some niche series watched by die hards with best drivers where big money, big manufactures and sponsors are.

Is that not what Formula E is supposed to become? I hardly ever see Horses on the road today, and when you do they are holding up traffic and carrying hardly any weight and can not stop quickly, but every weekend there are millions of people who go to watch Horse racing. There is more to watching 'motor' racing than just the newest most efficient technology, it is an ethos.

I am not saying there is not room for a 'crossover' series, but not to the extinction of Petrol engined racers.
Big difference between horse racing and F1 is that you need a lot of more money to run F1 than horse racing. Can you maintain the high quality of racing without big money? Even now a lot of manufactures doesn't seem to be interested in F1 or Le Mans while a lot join FE. FE isn't world championship right now, but as some point FE might replace F1 as single seater world championship, thus take F1 name.
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Re: Bernie wants F1 to be fully electric in 2021

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

Vehicles that burn hydrocarbons will one day be found only in museums. And for now, it appears that electric vehicles are the future. The only debatable points are how quickly.

Formula E may one day supplant Formula One. There is no reason to attempt to transition Formula One away fromit's gas burning roots, Formula E already has the teams, drivers, and technology in place.
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Re: Bernie wants F1 to be fully electric in 2021

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EV racing is not motor racing. The day f1 turns into ev is the day I stop paying attention to it.

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Re: Bernie wants F1 to be fully electric in 2021

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kleefton wrote:EV racing is not motor racing. The day f1 turns into ev is the day I stop paying attention to it.
if you don't like ev racing that's fair enough, but I don't see why you would say it isn't motor racing? They have motors and they race - kind of does exactly what it says on the tin!!!
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Re: Bernie wants F1 to be fully electric in 2021

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I'm torn between both your viewpoints. While electric motors are "motors" I associate the electric variety with RC cars as that was my passion throughout my teen years and have since returned to it heavily, but when it comes to real life race cars, I think it's very cool that they've developed electronic technology to a point where the speed is thereabouts, but when I watch FE, there's no doubt it's way sub par to most, if not all other forms of racing. In particular the switching cars is a severe annoyance to me because if you're going to put on a RACE, it shouldn't involve removing a human being completely from the cockpit of one car and placing him in another.

I'd much rather have the TEAM raise the car and fiddle with removing the battery system and dropping in a fresh one at a frantic pace because then all teams would be racing one another. And if the batteries are such that they are too dangerous to attempt doing battery swaps, then the product needs to be re-engineered.

And while I welcome and embrace new technology, I don't believe fossil fuel burning vehicles will ever go away or be things that are viewed only in museums for the simple fact that too many countless millions love the sound and feel far too much to want to drive anything else, myself included. I've driven every type of racing kart on the planet ranging from 100cc-400cc and I've driver high performance electric karts (granted they're not designed to be quite as fast as high-end 125cc racing karts) and the electric variety are nowhere near as fun to drive for a plethora of reasons.

FE is here for now, let's hope they do well enough to garner a huge following so that F1 ownership feels there's already an existing product that's too strong to want to compete with.
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Re: Bernie wants F1 to be fully electric in 2021

Post by Asphalt_World »

I think it's a missed communication.

It should read, 'Bernie wants to be fully electric by 2021'.
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Re: Bernie wants F1 to be fully electric in 2021

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F-E is the dry run for the F1 of the future, I think that's probably beyond debate at this point. Honestly think its a matter of when rather than if, it gets folded into F1 as we know it as the tech in both cars gradually matches more and more. I'll miss the noise, even of the current F1 engines, but the writing is on the wall.
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Re: Bernie wants F1 to be fully electric in 2021

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Why anyone gives the time of day to someone who spent his last 3 years at the helm of F1 trashing the current power units spouting this nonsense is beyond me.

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Re: Bernie wants F1 to be fully electric in 2021

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GingerFurball wrote:Why anyone gives the time of day to someone who spent his last 3 years at the helm of F1 trashing the current power units spouting this nonsense is beyond me.
This.

Same as the "Ferrari may leave F1" thread - it's Bernie Ecclestone saying it, not Ferrari (not this time anyway). Yet everyone comes out swinging at them, even when it is obvious that the guy is just stirring the pot.

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Re: Bernie wants F1 to be fully electric in 2021

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It seems that Bernie has discovered there is something worse than being complained about..










Not being complained about :twisted:

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Re: Bernie wants F1 to be fully electric in 2021

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F1 is meant to be the pinnacle of motorsport and the forefront of technology. Clearly an all-electric series with the performance of current F1 cars would be the forefront of technology therefore ICE must be ditched.

Ten or fifteen years ago, electric karts were rather crap and laggy, now they are on a par with petrol ones, I can see F1 teams getting close to current engine performance given a 3 year development window, the money just needs a reason to be invested and it will happen. It's not as hard as sending a man to the moon, it just needs to be researched imo.

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Re: Bernie wants F1 to be fully electric in 2021

Post by Toby. »

It'd be cool if F1 could go all electric by 2021 and still maintain the same level of competitiveness that it has currently. However, that seems much too soon to me.

An F1 transition to electric power would need to be pretty seamless, I think. It couldn't be done the way Formula E has and expect to maintain the same level of popularity. Fans won't keep watching if they have to sit through a few years of finding-its-feet with the new technology.

It's an inevitable trajectory, though.
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Re: Bernie wants F1 to be fully electric in 2021

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pendulumeffect wrote:F1 is meant to be the pinnacle of motorsport and the forefront of technology. Clearly an all-electric series with the performance of current F1 cars would be the forefront of technology therefore ICE must be ditched.

Ten or fifteen years ago, electric karts were rather crap and laggy, now they are on a par with petrol ones, I can see F1 teams getting close to current engine performance given a 3 year development window, the money just needs a reason to be invested and it will happen. It's not as hard as sending a man to the moon, it just needs to be researched imo.
Electric karts are still not fully on par with gas powered ones. Unless you're comparing to "high-performance" Briggs & Stratton variety classes.
Electric karts accelerate faster but cannot match higher speeds required down long straights. Also the power output of the batteries is quite high and thus can pose just as much danger as F1 batteries can. Then there's the cost factor. It's actually a little more expensive to get a high-end electric kart setup and the batteries are not good for the environment once they reach their life limit. Then you'll have to have several battery packs for competition because it takes far longer to charge batteries than it doesn't to top off a fuel tank.

I think the day solar energy is able to power an F1 vehicle is WHEN it would be considered, but not a moment sooner, and I don't see that happening anytime soon.
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Re: Bernie wants F1 to be fully electric in 2021

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pendulumeffect wrote:F1 is meant to be the pinnacle of motorsport and the forefront of technology. Clearly an all-electric series with the performance of current F1 cars would be the forefront of technology therefore ICE must be ditched.

Ten or fifteen years ago, electric karts were rather crap and laggy, now they are on a par with petrol ones, I can see F1 teams getting close to current engine performance given a 3 year development window, the money just needs a reason to be invested and it will happen. It's not as hard as sending a man to the moon, it just needs to be researched imo.
Right. It is pointless to shift to EV for the sake of doing it. When an electric car becomes the faster option then F1 should take it, but it's not going to be in the next few years.

It will happen though, it's just more difficult for larger things. When Robot Combat started out 25 years ago, the heaviest hitting kinetic spinner weapons used internal combustion engines to power their blades. Now, largely down to battery technology improving, the electric motor based weapons are the best choice. To build a robot under 120kg and get the best power for the blade, an electric motor is the best choice.

This is also being seen in Gokarts, where the weights are much lower. However, the heavier the mass of a vehicle, the more efficient an ICE becomes, because the weight penalty for fuel in an ICE is much lower (batteries are heavy, fuel is not, whereas an ICE motor is heavy, and an electric motor is not. The power demands, and race length of an F1 race means that an F1 car would need about 2000kg in batteries for a race distance. That will come down to about 500kg in about 10 years though.

Of course, an electric vehicle is much more efficient (currently F1 engines get around 40-50% thermal efficiency whereas an EV would be 90+) and an EV would reharvest energy under braking.

I would say 2030 is the earliest F1 could realistically expect battery technology to become light enough for it to be the faster option.

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Re: Bernie wants F1 to be fully electric in 2021

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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
pendulumeffect wrote:F1 is meant to be the pinnacle of motorsport and the forefront of technology. Clearly an all-electric series with the performance of current F1 cars would be the forefront of technology therefore ICE must be ditched.

Ten or fifteen years ago, electric karts were rather crap and laggy, now they are on a par with petrol ones, I can see F1 teams getting close to current engine performance given a 3 year development window, the money just needs a reason to be invested and it will happen. It's not as hard as sending a man to the moon, it just needs to be researched imo.
Electric karts are still not fully on par with gas powered ones. Unless you're comparing to "high-performance" Briggs & Stratton variety classes.
Electric karts accelerate faster but cannot match higher speeds required down long straights. Also the power output of the batteries is quite high and thus can pose just as much danger as F1 batteries can. Then there's the cost factor. It's actually a little more expensive to get a high-end electric kart setup and the batteries are not good for the environment once they reach their life limit. Then you'll have to have several battery packs for competition because it takes far longer to charge batteries than it doesn't to top off a fuel tank.

I think the day solar energy is able to power an F1 vehicle is WHEN it would be considered, but not a moment sooner, and I don't see that happening anytime soon.
It's all rather dependent on technology progression though, isn't it? A few years ago it took a whole night to charge an electric car far enough to cover your weekend drive to the shops. Research I did a few weeks back suggests there are now chargers designed for country driving (long distances across continents like North America or Australia) that can pump up a battery for about 400km of driving in an hour. The demands of a high-performance go kart or racing car engine are far greater than those of a cross-country truck, but as an indication of how far the technology has progressed it's surely an indicator that within a reasonably short timeframe battery charging technology will be far, far more efficient than it is now. The same goes for battery power delivery into go karts and racing cars.
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Re: Bernie wants F1 to be fully electric in 2021

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minchy wrote:
kleefton wrote:EV racing is not motor racing. The day f1 turns into ev is the day I stop paying attention to it.
if you don't like ev racing that's fair enough, but I don't see why you would say it isn't motor racing? They have motors and they race - kind of does exactly what it says on the tin!!!
I daily drive a hybrid car. I totally get the benefits, but it's not like driving a "real car". The throttle response is nonexistent, the braking is odd, the overall driving experience is completely muted. I don't see how anyone that drives professionally can equate driving an electric car as the same as driving an ICE one. To me, EV racing should stay as it is and let F1 be what it is. Yes, I know that technology will make it possible eventually, but I bet if you ask the current F1 drivers, none of them will want to switch to a fully electric F1. It will probably happen at some point, but not in my lifetime hopefully, and not in theirs.

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Re: Bernie wants F1 to be fully electric in 2021

Post by Ennis »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:Vehicles that burn hydrocarbons will one day be found only in museums. And for now, it appears that electric vehicles are the future. The only debatable points are how quickly.

Formula E may one day supplant Formula One. There is no reason to attempt to transition Formula One away fromit's gas burning roots, Formula E already has the teams, drivers, and technology in place.
F1 has the brand, the real top end teams, the real to end drivers, and the logistics in place.

Transitioning F1 to electric should be far less risky than trying to turn FE in to F1. Even the unweaving and reweaving of contracts would be hell. But mostly, if you can slowly shift to electric within F1 then the fans will accept it - at some point. If you turn something else in to F1, there will be a certain amount of its prestige lost.

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Re: Bernie wants F1 to be fully electric in 2021

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

What I suspect will be a likely transition will be from direct drive to electric transmission - ie, the ICE drives a MGU which is connected electrically to motors on the wheels.

This would then mean when battery power becomes good enough, the ICE gets swapped for electrical storage. It would also mean that the ICE could be used more dynamically, and would eliminate the need for gearboxes.

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Re: Bernie wants F1 to be fully electric in 2021

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kleefton wrote:
minchy wrote:
kleefton wrote:EV racing is not motor racing. The day f1 turns into ev is the day I stop paying attention to it.
if you don't like ev racing that's fair enough, but I don't see why you would say it isn't motor racing? They have motors and they race - kind of does exactly what it says on the tin!!!
I daily drive a hybrid car. I totally get the benefits, but it's not like driving a "real car". The throttle response is nonexistent, the braking is odd, the overall driving experience is completely muted. I don't see how anyone that drives professionally can equate driving an electric car as the same as driving an ICE one. To me, EV racing should stay as it is and let F1 be what it is. Yes, I know that technology will make it possible eventually, but I bet if you ask the current F1 drivers, none of them will want to switch to a fully electric F1. It will probably happen at some point, but not in my lifetime hopefully, and not in theirs.
Hi Kleefton, not sure about hybrids, as I have never driven one, but I did test drive the Nissan Leaf and the Renault Zoe. Throttle response and braking (I don't get what you mean by odd braking to be honest) were absolutely fine. Granted, these are not racing cars, but equally the F1 car is not a normal car.

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Re: Bernie wants F1 to be fully electric in 2021

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I've driven a couple of hybrid cars that were rentals. Aside from the Ford Fusion, which had very aggressive regen on braking, I never really noticed a difference from any other auto transmission car I've driven. What took the longest to adapt to was the On/Off ICE in a Chevy Malibu. The way the it really clunked into gear after sitting at a stop light for a while could be alarming at times, but that could've also been due to it being a rental that had been thrashed the way most of them are.
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Re: Bernie wants F1 to be fully electric in 2021

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kleefton wrote:
minchy wrote:
kleefton wrote:EV racing is not motor racing. The day f1 turns into ev is the day I stop paying attention to it.
if you don't like ev racing that's fair enough, but I don't see why you would say it isn't motor racing? They have motors and they race - kind of does exactly what it says on the tin!!!
I daily drive a hybrid car. I totally get the benefits, but it's not like driving a "real car". The throttle response is nonexistent, the braking is odd, the overall driving experience is completely muted. I don't see how anyone that drives professionally can equate driving an electric car as the same as driving an ICE one. To me, EV racing should stay as it is and let F1 be what it is. Yes, I know that technology will make it possible eventually, but I bet if you ask the current F1 drivers, none of them will want to switch to a fully electric F1. It will probably happen at some point, but not in my lifetime hopefully, and not in theirs.
Oh I understand that it's completely different how you drive the cars, you can understand that simply by watching some interviews from Fe. I was just pointing out that it is still motor racing, just not using an ICE.
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Re: Bernie wants F1 to be fully electric in 2021

Post by moby »

The thing is how they do the change, if they do.

If they wait for it to happen it will take a long time as the 'letric cars go head to head with the ICE cars, but if they say ' right, from 2025 ALL are electric' then they will only be racing like for like and we probably would not see much difference. They could even give a weight penalty to favour the 'letric cars on a sliding scale so the teams would know that in say 3 yeas they will never be in it.

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Re: Bernie wants F1 to be fully electric in 2021

Post by Zoue »

kleefton wrote:
minchy wrote:
kleefton wrote:EV racing is not motor racing. The day f1 turns into ev is the day I stop paying attention to it.
if you don't like ev racing that's fair enough, but I don't see why you would say it isn't motor racing? They have motors and they race - kind of does exactly what it says on the tin!!!
I daily drive a hybrid car. I totally get the benefits, but it's not like driving a "real car". The throttle response is nonexistent, the braking is odd, the overall driving experience is completely muted. I don't see how anyone that drives professionally can equate driving an electric car as the same as driving an ICE one. To me, EV racing should stay as it is and let F1 be what it is. Yes, I know that technology will make it possible eventually, but I bet if you ask the current F1 drivers, none of them will want to switch to a fully electric F1. It will probably happen at some point, but not in my lifetime hopefully, and not in theirs.
There are hybrids and hybrids. I drove a VW Golf GTE for a year. Throttle response was instantaneous and instant torque meant the car felt nimble and fast. My cousin has a full electric Tesla and the acceleration on that beats many a supercar. As far as I can tell the only negative for an electric (from a performance point of view) is range, but they are not by any stretch of the imagination slow, unless purposely designed that way

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Re: Bernie wants F1 to be fully electric in 2021

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RaggedMan wrote:I've driven a couple of hybrid cars that were rentals. Aside from the Ford Fusion, which had very aggressive regen on braking, I never really noticed a difference from any other auto transmission car I've driven. What took the longest to adapt to was the On/Off ICE in a Chevy Malibu. The way the it really clunked into gear after sitting at a stop light for a while could be alarming at times, but that could've also been due to it being a rental that had been thrashed the way most of them are.
It’s very difficult to brake smoothly when you need to brake smoothly. The on/off ice is only a minor pet peeve for me but it’s definitely annoying. As far as the throttle response You hit the throttle pedal and because there is no sound you don’t really know how much throttle you’ve applied until you get going. Maybe it’s just me but all the hybrids I’ve driven behaved that way. Don’t get me started on the cvt that is normally the transmission of choice for EV road cars around where I live.
I’ll stop here because I don’t want to derail the thread. But basically ev cars are not cars to me. More like an appliance.

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Re: Bernie wants F1 to be fully electric in 2021

Post by RaggedMan »

kleefton wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:I've driven a couple of hybrid cars that were rentals. Aside from the Ford Fusion, which had very aggressive regen on braking, I never really noticed a difference from any other auto transmission car I've driven. What took the longest to adapt to was the On/Off ICE in a Chevy Malibu. The way the it really clunked into gear after sitting at a stop light for a while could be alarming at times, but that could've also been due to it being a rental that had been thrashed the way most of them are.
It’s very difficult to brake smoothly when you need to brake smoothly. The on/off ice is only a minor pet peeve for me but it’s definitely annoying. As far as the throttle response You hit the throttle pedal and because there is no sound you don’t really know how much throttle you’ve applied until you get going. Maybe it’s just me but all the hybrids I’ve driven behaved that way. Don’t get me started on the cvt that is normally the transmission of choice for EV road cars around where I live.
I’ll stop here because I don’t want to derail the thread. But basically ev cars are not cars to me. More like an appliance.
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Re: Bernie wants F1 to be fully electric in 2021

Post by dizlexik »

Siao7 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
minchy wrote:
kleefton wrote:EV racing is not motor racing. The day f1 turns into ev is the day I stop paying attention to it.
if you don't like ev racing that's fair enough, but I don't see why you would say it isn't motor racing? They have motors and they race - kind of does exactly what it says on the tin!!!
I daily drive a hybrid car. I totally get the benefits, but it's not like driving a "real car". The throttle response is nonexistent, the braking is odd, the overall driving experience is completely muted. I don't see how anyone that drives professionally can equate driving an electric car as the same as driving an ICE one. To me, EV racing should stay as it is and let F1 be what it is. Yes, I know that technology will make it possible eventually, but I bet if you ask the current F1 drivers, none of them will want to switch to a fully electric F1. It will probably happen at some point, but not in my lifetime hopefully, and not in theirs.
Hi Kleefton, not sure about hybrids, as I have never driven one, but I did test drive the Nissan Leaf and the Renault Zoe. Throttle response and braking (I don't get what you mean by odd braking to be honest) were absolutely fine. Granted, these are not racing cars, but equally the F1 car is not a normal car.
Well true. Also F1 cars are already hybrids and use regenerative braking. ;) Throttle response is all about software. Electric engine has superior torque.
eeee

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dizlexik
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Re: Bernie wants F1 to be fully electric in 2021

Post by dizlexik »

moby wrote:The thing is how they do the change, if they do.

If they wait for it to happen it will take a long time as the 'letric cars go head to head with the ICE cars, but if they say ' right, from 2025 ALL are electric' then they will only be racing like for like and we probably would not see much difference. They could even give a weight penalty to favour the 'letric cars on a sliding scale so the teams would know that in say 3 yeas they will never be in it.
Electric cars won't be anywhere near as quick as ICE for a long while. No weight penalty would help EVs in the near future. EVs are very very quick on straight line, but are heavy and drain battery too quickly when driven flat out. I believe the transition will be gradual increase in electric capacity. In 2009 KERS was used few seconds, now it's like 180 HP for 33 seconds of electric power. Next regulations probably won't change much and will just simplify things to reduce cost, but in the long run F1 might use more electric power. When battery tech improve F1 hybrids might be charged before race, because obviously there are hard limits how much energy you can harvest during single lap. That said it's long way before pure F1 EV can last 2 hours on single charge (or charge in something like 1 minute during race).
eeee

Zoue
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Re: Bernie wants F1 to be fully electric in 2021

Post by Zoue »

kleefton wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:I've driven a couple of hybrid cars that were rentals. Aside from the Ford Fusion, which had very aggressive regen on braking, I never really noticed a difference from any other auto transmission car I've driven. What took the longest to adapt to was the On/Off ICE in a Chevy Malibu. The way the it really clunked into gear after sitting at a stop light for a while could be alarming at times, but that could've also been due to it being a rental that had been thrashed the way most of them are.
It’s very difficult to brake smoothly when you need to brake smoothly. The on/off ice is only a minor pet peeve for me but it’s definitely annoying. As far as the throttle response You hit the throttle pedal and because there is no sound you don’t really know how much throttle you’ve applied until you get going. Maybe it’s just me but all the hybrids I’ve driven behaved that way. Don’t get me started on the cvt that is normally the transmission of choice for EV road cars around where I live.
I’ll stop here because I don’t want to derail the thread. But basically ev cars are not cars to me. More like an appliance.
I think that's more a function of the cars you've driven rather than the technology itself. When done right, it's not an issue. I'd agree the Toyota Prius, for example, is very much an appliance, but then to be fair it never pretends to be anything else. The driving experience was never particularly high on its agenda. But other, sportier cars, are engineered to give much better driver enjoyment, so they pay more attention to the areas you describe. In the Golf it was often difficult to tell when the ICE engaged, as it was fairly seamless. And I'm sure there are other cars out there equally as good, if not even better.

Siao7
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Re: Bernie wants F1 to be fully electric in 2021

Post by Siao7 »

RaggedMan wrote:
kleefton wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:I've driven a couple of hybrid cars that were rentals. Aside from the Ford Fusion, which had very aggressive regen on braking, I never really noticed a difference from any other auto transmission car I've driven. What took the longest to adapt to was the On/Off ICE in a Chevy Malibu. The way the it really clunked into gear after sitting at a stop light for a while could be alarming at times, but that could've also been due to it being a rental that had been thrashed the way most of them are.
It’s very difficult to brake smoothly when you need to brake smoothly. The on/off ice is only a minor pet peeve for me but it’s definitely annoying. As far as the throttle response You hit the throttle pedal and because there is no sound you don’t really know how much throttle you’ve applied until you get going. Maybe it’s just me but all the hybrids I’ve driven behaved that way. Don’t get me started on the cvt that is normally the transmission of choice for EV road cars around where I live.
I’ll stop here because I don’t want to derail the thread. But basically ev cars are not cars to me. More like an appliance.
My son recently bought a 1st gen new Mini which has a CVT. He got really bummed out because he thought that trans was about to go after only a week of ownership. I took it for a spin and told him that's just the way those boxes work when they're cold. If I had known that that was the type of trans it had I would've counseled against that car and look for a manual instead.
I never driven one and only now did I get a video to see how the CVT sounds. It is so much different than the normal engine/gearbox sequence, it seems like someone burned the clutch... I'd be bummed out as well.

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moby
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Re: Bernie wants F1 to be fully electric in 2021

Post by moby »

I love CVT and have had several. Its a learned technique to get the best out of them. There are 'grades' of CVT too. The Nissan one is streets infront of the Ford one, so much so you would not believe it is the same thing. Subaru is prob the best I have had.

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Alienturnedhuman
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Re: Bernie wants F1 to be fully electric in 2021

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

An electric CVT is totally different to a ICE CVT. The end goal is the same, but the way of achieving it is completely different - essentially, an ICE is naturally better suited for a geared transmission, and an electric motor be better suited to continuous.

Putting the power through the gearbox and differential has a power loss, and that's why horsepower at the crank is higher than at the wheels, however it's necessary for an ICE because it's not feasible to mount an engine on each wheel and because the ICE only starts producing more power than it loses once it gets above a certain rpm, necessitating the need for clutch and a starter motor.

Electric motors are completely different. They have instant torque from zero. So long as they can spin fast enough they will never need gearing. There's no need for a gearbox and why Teslas don't have them.

For an ICE to get continuous transmission, they need to use a CVT gearbox, which is essentially like the gears on a bicycle. Its done through a chain or a belt - and that's the weak point. I don't think that an F1 engine would cope well with that sort of transmission, not to mention the potential of the belt losing tension, slipping - there are just too many things to go wrong on a high performance engine. The risk with a gear box is while changing gear, once in gear the risks are gone.

However, as I mentioned before, there is a CVT system for an ICE that could be used as a stepping stone - but it's not a mechanical transmission - its essentially using the ICE as power generator for an electric car, rather then using batteries. This would would make the engines a lot more efficient as the power losses would be less, and engine would essentially just become a torque request device - it would completely change the dynamics of driving the car as they could have maximum engine power for the whole time on a straight, and then drop to the required power for a given corner or section of the lap, rather than have the rise and fall of direct mechanical transmission. It would enable drivers to get much closer to the theoretical perfect lap time, although it would be a lot harder to stop traction control and abs systems being engineered into the ECU software.

Siao7
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Re: Bernie wants F1 to be fully electric in 2021

Post by Siao7 »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:An electric CVT is totally different to a ICE CVT. The end goal is the same, but the way of achieving it is completely different - essentially, an ICE is naturally better suited for a geared transmission, and an electric motor be better suited to continuous.

Putting the power through the gearbox and differential has a power loss, and that's why horsepower at the crank is higher than at the wheels, however it's necessary for an ICE because it's not feasible to mount an engine on each wheel and because the ICE only starts producing more power than it loses once it gets above a certain rpm, necessitating the need for clutch and a starter motor.

Electric motors are completely different. They have instant torque from zero. So long as they can spin fast enough they will never need gearing. There's no need for a gearbox and why Teslas don't have them.

For an ICE to get continuous transmission, they need to use a CVT gearbox, which is essentially like the gears on a bicycle. Its done through a chain or a belt - and that's the weak point. I don't think that an F1 engine would cope well with that sort of transmission, not to mention the potential of the belt losing tension, slipping - there are just too many things to go wrong on a high performance engine. The risk with a gear box is while changing gear, once in gear the risks are gone.

However, as I mentioned before, there is a CVT system for an ICE that could be used as a stepping stone - but it's not a mechanical transmission - its essentially using the ICE as power generator for an electric car, rather then using batteries. This would would make the engines a lot more efficient as the power losses would be less, and engine would essentially just become a torque request device - it would completely change the dynamics of driving the car as they could have maximum engine power for the whole time on a straight, and then drop to the required power for a given corner or section of the lap, rather than have the rise and fall of direct mechanical transmission. It would enable drivers to get much closer to the theoretical perfect lap time, although it would be a lot harder to stop traction control and abs systems being engineered into the ECU software.
A CVT would be closer to something like the NuVinci gears in a bike, right? This has been around for more than 10 years, never tried it myself, but apparently it works really well.

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Banana Man
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Re: Bernie wants F1 to be fully electric in 2021

Post by Banana Man »

Maybe one day but F1 teams designing fully electric cars in 2 years? Give over.

I'd rather things stay as they are, so that myself and many others can enjoy Formula-E without all the so called 'purists' complaining about the noise it makes.
I remember when this website was all fields.

PenguinPirate
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Re: Bernie wants F1 to be fully electric in 2021

Post by PenguinPirate »

I was thinking.. you could keep ICEs around if you power them with hydrogen instead of gasoline. It's an option I never see mentioned. But this way you could have good sounding engines while also being green and clean.

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moby
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Re: Bernie wants F1 to be fully electric in 2021

Post by moby »

PenguinPirate wrote:I was thinking.. you could keep ICEs around if you power them with hydrogen instead of gasoline. It's an option I never see mentioned. But this way you could have good sounding engines while also being green and clean.
That depends on why you want rid of the ICE. If you are keeping it, shy not keep the same fuel? I feel it is being considered an old item now and it needs shiny new 'letric as much for image as for practical purposes.

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