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I'd like to know what people's opinions of them are. Although I'm British I was born in the USA so was pleased to see a team from the USA entering F1. Even though they have only been in F1 for two seasons, I think they should really be doing a lot better than they are, they have a very rich owner with access to a lot of resources that should enable them to be a lot better than they are, they have the second best engine on the grid and yet quite often they are qualifying towards the back of the field and haven't really shown much progress in their second season and I'm struggling to understand why really, no doubt some of it is down to their choice of drivers but surely that's not the whole story. What do people think, should they be doing better than they are or are they about where they should be?

They're about where they should be, their resources aren't huge, they're up against teams who have been in the sport for a good while like Sauber, Force India and Toro Rosso, or who are big names historically in the sport (McLaren and Williams) who will find it easier to attract drivers and personnel to the team as a result.

F1 isn't an easy business, look at McLaren's struggles in the last 5 seasons, look how long it took a team as well resourced as Red Bull to start winning races. I think Haas could do better with better drivers, but there's a catch 22 situation in play that they're going to struggle to attract better drivers without first developing a better car, particularly now that they seem to have closed off the Ferrari stepping stone that probably attracted Grosjean to the team.

I like Haas. They did better in their first year than I ever expected. And they made progress this year. Going into yesterday's race they were only 6 points off 6th in the WCC

Relying on Ferrari hand-me-downs was the right idea at the beginning. It's probably best to continue with that arrangement for the foreseeable future. They need to get on top of their constant brake issues before moving on to constructing the entirety of their car. But the Ferrari setup will most likely always keep them roughly where they are on the grid

And having two points-scoring drivers this year was a big improvement on 2016. There might be a question mark over whether Grosjean and KMag are the very best drivers they can put in their cars but I'm sure on balance the team are happy overall

The next scalp should be Toro Rosso but after that they'll be doing well to finish any higher than 8th again in 2018. I would expect Renault and McLaren to be out of reach

They surpassed last years points haul well before the summer break and almost doubled it in the end despite going off the boil the last few races.

I think the drivers are a bit disappointing but pretty good for a new team.

I recall reading awhile back, can't remember where, that they turned focus to next years car early so the only upgrades they were getting the last several races where ones that were already in the pipeline.

All though they finished in the same spot in the WCC as last year they were at least able to challenge for something higher this time. With slightly better drivers or a little more luck they could've been sixth instead of eighth and in the end were only a few points off seventh.

All in all I think they're in a very good spot at the end of their second season. If they do better next year or not is going to depend a lot on whether the Honda PU improves and what Sauber might be able to do with a current PU, possibly better drivers, and more support from Ferrari. (If the Alpha talk is true)

RaggedMan wrote:They surpassed last years points haul well before the summer break and almost doubled it in the end despite going off the boil the last few races.

I think the drivers are a bit disappointing but pretty good for a new team.

I recall reading awhile back, can't remember where, that they turned focus to next years car early so the only upgrades they were getting the last several races where ones that were already in the pipeline.

All though they finished in the same spot in the WCC as last year they were at least able to challenge for something higher this time. With slightly better drivers or a little more luck they could've been sixth instead of eighth and in the end were only a few points off seventh.

All in all I think they're in a very good spot at the end of their second season. If they do better next year or not is going to depend a lot on whether the Honda PU improves and what Sauber might be able to do with a current PU, possibly better drivers, and more support from Ferrari. (If the Alpha talk is true)

I think they'll struggle to do better, I expect the midfield to be much more competitive and points harder to come by.

Like the other respondents, I am reasonably happy with the progress that Haas has shown. I would have been even happier if Haas had been able to leapfrog Toro Rosso and Renault into sixth place. Stilll as others have pointed out this is a difficult business and the competitors are not going to concede anything easily. Of course the true metric is whether Gene Haas is happy with their progress and is still willing to put his money into the project. I look forward to continued improvements next year and hope that Gene's goal of competing for wins in ten years.

Two miserable drivers....not much to get excited about.

Herb Tarlik wrote:Two miserable drivers....not much to get excited about.

That's the word. Miserable describes Grosjean perfectly. The most uninspiring, miserable, whiny, moaning driver on the grid. Really has no redeeming quality. Magnussen is marginally better, but is still a tier 3 driver.

ReservoirDog wrote:

Herb Tarlik wrote:Two miserable drivers....not much to get excited about.

That's the word. Miserable describes Grosjean perfectly. The most uninspiring, miserable, whiny, moaning driver on the grid. Really has no redeeming quality. Magnussen is marginally better, but is still a tier 3 driver.

yep, grosjean seems to do nothing but whine. he signed with a brand new team and doesn't seem to understand that half the time??
i was wishing they would have taken Leclerc from ferrari for next season.

Lots of complaints about RoGro, but remember why the team is there. Air time. He gets them far more than their share.

pc27b wrote:

ReservoirDog wrote:

Herb Tarlik wrote:Two miserable drivers....not much to get excited about.

That's the word. Miserable describes Grosjean perfectly. The most uninspiring, miserable, whiny, moaning driver on the grid. Really has no redeeming quality. Magnussen is marginally better, but is still a tier 3 driver.

yep, grosjean seems to do nothing but whine. he signed with a brand new team and doesn't seem to understand that half the time??
i was wishing they would have taken Leclerc from ferrari for next season.

And he whines about brakes. That driver hasn't learned how to use brakes for 3 seasons now. Unbelievable.

Gene Haas may be wealthy, but F1 is not his weekend hobby for him to splash his cash around. His team is a business first and foremost and therefore cannot spend more than they have coming in. I think the team have done very well to operate within the harsh constraints of F1's uneven business model which gives the smaller teams mere scraps to live off and puts up almost unassailable barriers for new teams to enter.

They've been very shrewd with how they've gone about things and have learned from the failures of the likes of Marussia, Caterham and HRT who tried to build their own car from scratch on a shoestring budget. Buying in as many standardised parts from other teams as possible and outsourcing the chassis construction has allowed them to be competitive on the small budget they have available. In contrary to the criticism above, I think hiring a more experienced driver like Grosjean to give feedback to the engineering team has been a positive move and has served them better than hiring a younger driver with a wad of cash would have done.

They should be proud of what they have achieved. They have succeeded where the new teams from 2010 failed and are now an established, competitive outfit. As for where they go from here, I don't think any real further progress is possible unless Liberty overhaul the sport's commercial structure to grant them a greater share of the revenue. Lets see what 2020 brings.

Unbelievable? really?

Brakes are likely what drivers are most sensitive too in a race car. If that aspect doesn't feel right then drivers will overcook and/or glaze them over and once that happens there's a slim chance they can get them working properly again. In motorcycles in particular, I've ridden pretty much every bike you can think of and the one bike I will NEVER EVER EVER ride is the old FZR600 because of the brake system, particularly the rear. That caliper is the biggest POS I have EVER had the displeasure of actuating because it has the tiniest of windows in which the brake go from almost no pressure to an instantaneous 3/4 application and every so often almost full lock for no apparent reason and Yamaha never addressed it through the life of that model. The rest of the bike was really good, but that one aspect led to a ton of accidents and it is the only bike I dropped due to a malfunction of the braking system.

It's not ridiculous if you know first hand how a system you aren't comfortable with can keep a driver from applying his skills set to the maximum.
Even still Grosjean has outperformed Magnussen despite his discomfort with the brakes which is indicative of Gorsjean's ability. Maybe some of you see it as whining, but since he's the professional driver it's a safe bet his assessment of the system and the car is likely on the money.

j man wrote:Gene Haas may be wealthy, but F1 is not his weekend hobby for him to splash his cash around. His team is a business first and foremost and therefore cannot spend more than they have coming in. I think the team have done very well to operate within the harsh constraints of F1's uneven business model which gives the smaller teams mere scraps to live off and puts up almost unassailable barriers for new teams to enter.

They've been very shrewd with how they've gone about things and have learned from the failures of the likes of Marussia, Caterham and HRT who tried to build their own car from scratch on a shoestring budget. Buying in as many standardised parts from other teams as possible and outsourcing the chassis construction has allowed them to be competitive on the small budget they have available. In contrary to the criticism above, I think hiring a more experienced driver like Grosjean to give feedback to the engineering team has been a positive move and has served them better than hiring a younger driver with a wad of cash would have done.

They should be proud of what they have achieved. They have succeeded where the new teams from 2010 failed and are now an established, competitive outfit. As for where they go from here, I don't think any real further progress is possible unless Liberty overhaul the sport's commercial structure to grant them a greater share of the revenue. Lets see what 2020 brings.

Marussia started out as Virgin Racing and they had Dallara build their first chassis 100% and they had them assist heavily in building the 2nd chassis before going it alone. Lotus and HRT built their own cars from the start.

F1 MERCENARY wrote:

j man wrote:Gene Haas may be wealthy, but F1 is not his weekend hobby for him to splash his cash around. His team is a business first and foremost and therefore cannot spend more than they have coming in. I think the team have done very well to operate within the harsh constraints of F1's uneven business model which gives the smaller teams mere scraps to live off and puts up almost unassailable barriers for new teams to enter.

They've been very shrewd with how they've gone about things and have learned from the failures of the likes of Marussia, Caterham and HRT who tried to build their own car from scratch on a shoestring budget. Buying in as many standardised parts from other teams as possible and outsourcing the chassis construction has allowed them to be competitive on the small budget they have available. In contrary to the criticism above, I think hiring a more experienced driver like Grosjean to give feedback to the engineering team has been a positive move and has served them better than hiring a younger driver with a wad of cash would have done.

They should be proud of what they have achieved. They have succeeded where the new teams from 2010 failed and are now an established, competitive outfit. As for where they go from here, I don't think any real further progress is possible unless Liberty overhaul the sport's commercial structure to grant them a greater share of the revenue. Lets see what 2020 brings.

Marussia started out as Virgin Racing and they had Dallara build their first chassis 100% and they had them assist heavily in building the 2nd chassis before going it alone. Lotus and HRT built their own cars from the start.

Wasn't it HRT who had Dallara build their first chassis? Then they had a falling out and built their own in subsequent years.

If I recall, Marussia / Virgin started out designing their own through CFD only and it failed spectacularly.

F1 MERCENARY wrote:Unbelievable? really?

Brakes are likely what drivers are most sensitive too in a race car. If that aspect doesn't feel right then drivers will overcook and/or glaze them over and once that happens there's a slim chance they can get them working properly again. In motorcycles in particular, I've ridden pretty much every bike you can think of and the one bike I will NEVER EVER EVER ride is the old FZR600 because of the brake system, particularly the rear. That caliper is the biggest POS I have EVER had the displeasure of actuating because it has the tiniest of windows in which the brake go from almost no pressure to an instantaneous 3/4 application and every so often almost full lock for no apparent reason and Yamaha never addressed it through the life of that model. The rest of the bike was really good, but that one aspect led to a ton of accidents and it is the only bike I dropped due to a malfunction of the braking system.

It's not ridiculous if you know first hand how a system you aren't comfortable with can keep a driver from applying his skills set to the maximum.
Even still Grosjean has outperformed Magnussen despite his discomfort with the brakes which is indicative of Gorsjean's ability. Maybe some of you see it as whining, but since he's the professional driver it's a safe bet his assessment of the system and the car is likely on the money.

I know from doing a ton of track days in cars that brakes are the one thing that inspires or destroys confidence.

I've tried pads that give great initial bite, but not consistent with temperature - they are impossible to be anything other than conservative with. The best brakes give predictable braking across the range. You can live with 'bad' brakes, if they are predictably bad.

F1 drivers will be applying the brakes with the same force at the same places, with mechanical precision, they will be incredibly sensitive to minor changes.

Badgeronimous wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:Unbelievable? really?

Brakes are likely what drivers are most sensitive too in a race car. If that aspect doesn't feel right then drivers will overcook and/or glaze them over and once that happens there's a slim chance they can get them working properly again. In motorcycles in particular, I've ridden pretty much every bike you can think of and the one bike I will NEVER EVER EVER ride is the old FZR600 because of the brake system, particularly the rear. That caliper is the biggest POS I have EVER had the displeasure of actuating because it has the tiniest of windows in which the brake go from almost no pressure to an instantaneous 3/4 application and every so often almost full lock for no apparent reason and Yamaha never addressed it through the life of that model. The rest of the bike was really good, but that one aspect led to a ton of accidents and it is the only bike I dropped due to a malfunction of the braking system.

It's not ridiculous if you know first hand how a system you aren't comfortable with can keep a driver from applying his skills set to the maximum.
Even still Grosjean has outperformed Magnussen despite his discomfort with the brakes which is indicative of Gorsjean's ability. Maybe some of you see it as whining, but since he's the professional driver it's a safe bet his assessment of the system and the car is likely on the money.

I know from doing a ton of track days in cars that brakes are the one thing that inspires or destroys confidence.

I've tried pads that give great initial bite, but not consistent with temperature - they are impossible to be anything other than conservative with. The best brakes give predictable braking across the range. You can live with 'bad' brakes, if they are predictably bad.

F1 drivers will be applying the brakes with the same force at the same places, with mechanical precision, they will be incredibly sensitive to minor changes.

Yes, unbelievable is probably going a bit far. But surely neither of you can deny that it's a weakness in Grosjean that he's been unable to adapt and find a new feel for his braking despite several years and a lot of changes made for his benefit?

I can recall other drivers struggling with brakes for part of a year, but I can never remember another F1-level driver having multiple years of being unable to get his brakes to work. It's usually only half a season at most.

I'm actually really impressed with where HAAS are, I suppose my recent memories of new teams in F1 is Caterham or Marrusia where they trail around the track on their own just making up the numbers and HAAS has never played that role.

veffy wrote:I'm actually really impressed with where HAAS are, I suppose my recent memories of new teams in F1 is Caterham or Marrusia where they trail around the track on their own just making up the numbers and HAAS has never played that role.

Yes, they seem like really good operators.

I never really rated Grosjean. However by him only marginally beating Kmag, and Kmag being pretty close to Palmer last year, I think that Haas could be even better with a Perez/Ocon type pairing.
I wonder where someone like Alonso could have taken the Haas over a season.

I just had a thought. I wish F1 had worst driver of the day, and the driver that gets the most votes over the year gets his Super Licence taken from him...!!!!
(it probably would have been Palmer to receive that this year!)

Randine wrote:I never really rated Grosjean. However by him only marginally beating Kmag, and Kmag being pretty close to Palmer last year, I think that Haas could be even better with a Perez/Ocon type pairing.
I wonder where someone like Alonso could have taken the Haas over a season.

That's an interesting point: if Palmer was over half a second slower than Hulk, and KMag was only slightly faster than Palmer, would Haas actually have been ahead of Renault if you'd swapped the drivers? I think people often underestimate the impact of the drivers in the midfield and backmarker team battles.

Exediron wrote:

Randine wrote:I never really rated Grosjean. However by him only marginally beating Kmag, and Kmag being pretty close to Palmer last year, I think that Haas could be even better with a Perez/Ocon type pairing.
I wonder where someone like Alonso could have taken the Haas over a season.

That's an interesting point: if Palmer was over half a second slower than Hulk, and KMag was only slightly faster than Palmer, would Haas actually have been ahead of Renault if you'd swapped the drivers? I think people often underestimate the impact of the drivers in the midfield and backmarker team battles.

Yes I think swap the drivers around and Haas beats Renault.

ReservoirDog wrote:

Herb Tarlik wrote:Two miserable drivers....not much to get excited about.

That's the word. Miserable describes Grosjean perfectly. The most uninspiring, miserable, whiny, moaning driver on the grid. Really has no redeeming quality. Magnussen is marginally better, but is still a tier 3 driver.

Miserable ? Really ? He is the driver that gets the most air time (excluding Merc/RB/Ferrari drivers), if the FOM would diversify radio messages aired you would here every driver whine (maybe not as much but still). What you are saying is just pure, subjective, meaningless hate.

Obviously, Grosjean is hyper-sensitive to the brakes, but you can not deny there is an underlying problem for Haas with the braking since they are in F1. You people tend to under-estimate how important it is for a driver to be confident in several key area of the car's behavior, especially braking. If braking is inconsistent, bad, or maybe good but changes every race, you cannot be consistent yourself. And it is known Grosjean is a late braker, since his first Lotus season.

I don't get why he is on trial right now. He accounts for most of Haas' points, and they are pretty happy with him, which shows that internally, there is no doubts about his problems and performances.

I am thinking that next year will be a real challenge for the Haas team. McLaren (which Haas beat in 2017) should by rites leapfrog Haas and several other teams with the addition of Renault power and retaining the excellent McLaren chasis. Haas will then have to overcome Toro Rosso or Team Renault just to remain in eighth in the constructors standings. We do know that Honda has and is making significant efforts to increase reliability. With only two retirements in the last six races Honda does seem to have upped their game.

Hopefully Haas will put together a chasis that can hang with competitors that were farther up the grid this year.

This year's Haas had visibly a major in-built flaw. It was visibly the most difficult car to drive, it was usually all over the track. Sauber's power deficit and that Haas did not hire any pay driver à la Ericsson, Palmer, Stroll and Honda's miserability rescued them. But they must up their game car-wise for next season.

I think to be scoring regular points is a massive achievement already. I wouldn't be surprised if they beat STR and Williams next season.

The midfield will be tougher next year generally. Sauber have more investment and Mclaren and Renault will improve. Another 8th would be OK next year.

Exediron wrote:

Badgeronimous wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:Unbelievable? really?

Brakes are likely what drivers are most sensitive too in a race car. If that aspect doesn't feel right then drivers will overcook and/or glaze them over and once that happens there's a slim chance they can get them working properly again. In motorcycles in particular, I've ridden pretty much every bike you can think of and the one bike I will NEVER EVER EVER ride is the old FZR600 because of the brake system, particularly the rear. That caliper is the biggest POS I have EVER had the displeasure of actuating because it has the tiniest of windows in which the brake go from almost no pressure to an instantaneous 3/4 application and every so often almost full lock for no apparent reason and Yamaha never addressed it through the life of that model. The rest of the bike was really good, but that one aspect led to a ton of accidents and it is the only bike I dropped due to a malfunction of the braking system.

It's not ridiculous if you know first hand how a system you aren't comfortable with can keep a driver from applying his skills set to the maximum.
Even still Grosjean has outperformed Magnussen despite his discomfort with the brakes which is indicative of Gorsjean's ability. Maybe some of you see it as whining, but since he's the professional driver it's a safe bet his assessment of the system and the car is likely on the money.

I know from doing a ton of track days in cars that brakes are the one thing that inspires or destroys confidence.

I've tried pads that give great initial bite, but not consistent with temperature - they are impossible to be anything other than conservative with. The best brakes give predictable braking across the range. You can live with 'bad' brakes, if they are predictably bad.

F1 drivers will be applying the brakes with the same force at the same places, with mechanical precision, they will be incredibly sensitive to minor changes.

Yes, unbelievable is probably going a bit far. But surely neither of you can deny that it's a weakness in Grosjean that he's been unable to adapt and find a new feel for his braking despite several years and a lot of changes made for his benefit?

I can recall other drivers struggling with brakes for part of a year, but I can never remember another F1-level driver having multiple years of being unable to get his brakes to work. It's usually only half a season at most.

The problem is probably not helped by the 'brake by wire' system that does not physically connect the peddle to the wheels.
It just tell s the system how much the driver wants to apply,then does its own thing calculating how much to use the re-gen and how much to use the friction. Well on the rears anyway. The problem could be as much in the software as in the hubs.

Precisely. And before chastising Grosjean in regards to brakes, he never had an issue that I can recall before joining Haas so I think it's a a bit unfair to throw it all on him.
Even with his brake issues he still beat out Magnussen somewhat comfortably whom and no one is placing under the same scrutiny. And Magnussen being such a capable driver, his performance in the same car as Grosjean should be indicative enough that despite the brake issues, Grosjean is doing with the Haas what Alonso has done with the McLaren, and most of his cars.

F1 MERCENARY wrote:Precisely. And before chastising Grosjean in regards to brakes, he never had an issue that I can recall before joining Haas so I think it's a a bit unfair to throw it all on him.
Even with his brake issues he still beat out Magnussen somewhat comfortably whom and no one is placing under the same scrutiny. And Magnussen being such a capable driver, his performance in the same car as Grosjean should be indicative enough that despite the brake issues, Grosjean is doing with the Haas what Alonso has done with the McLaren, and most of his cars.

Magnussen has never beaten a F1 teammate who wasn't Jolyon Palmer.

I used to think KMag was pretty decent - he got smacked by Button in 2014, but I rated Button a lot more highly than most around here. In 2016 it was hard to tell - he was clearly a cut above Palmer, but how good was Palmer anyway? Unfortunately we learned the answer to that this year, and now in hindsight his inability to truly dominate Palmer calls him into serious question as an F1-worthy driver. The fact that, as you say, he was cleanly beaten by a teammate struggling with his brakes almost every weekend doesn't paint a good picture either.

You mention Alonso: I'd love to see what Alonso could do in that Haas car. I think he'd be a solid way up the road from where they are now, and probably in the points every weekend.

Actually, Magnussen performed quite respectably against Button and was much closer in terms of pace to Button in his rookie season than Vandoorne was to Alonso in his. Just saying, no implications on the two's hierarchy implied.

At Renault, Magnussen was actually quite significantly ahead of Palmer until things changed in the latter part of the season, especially but not only in qualifying (earlier in the season, the rare defeats were supported by bad luck). Magnussen does seem to have weaker periods in his seasons, a negative point about him. Plus, Renault was not really supportive - to say it modestly - after he decided to snub their one year contract offer.

When he gets his act together, Magnussen is considerably ahead of Palmer and actually very competitive. He needs more consistency of his better performances, no doubt.

Still, both Grosjean and Magnussen were assets to Haas 2017 season. With a Palmer-Ericsson (or so) line-up (or an even worse paydriver line-up), Haas would have finished significantly worse.

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:Actually, Magnussen performed quite respectably against Button and was much closer in terms of pace to Button in his rookie season than Vandoorne was to Alonso in his. Just saying, no implications on the two's hierarchy implied.

At Renault, Magnussen was actually quite significantly ahead of Palmer until things changed in the latter part of the season, especially but not only in qualifying (earlier in the season, the rare defeats were supported by bad luck). Magnussen does seem to have weaker periods in his seasons, a negative point about him. Plus, Renault was not really supportive - to say it modestly - after he decided to snub their one year contract offer.

When he gets his act together, Magnussen is considerably ahead of Palmer and actually very competitive. He needs more consistency of his better performances, no doubt.

Still, both Grosjean and Magnussen were assets to Haas 2017 season. With a Palmer-Ericsson (or so) line-up (or an even worse paydriver line-up), Haas would have finished significantly worse.

Is this really true?

Isn't it?

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:Isn't it?

My gut feeling is not. I could be wrong. You made the statement I would assume you had something to back it up with?

Magnussen started quite well compared to Button but was well beaten throughout the second half of the season.

Quick check (numbers accurate?):

Qualifying
Alonso - Vandoorne 16:3
Button - Magnussen 9:10

I would say, qualifying pacewise, KM was definitely closer to JB than SV was to FA.

H2H in races when both finished:
Alonso - Vandoorne 4:1
Button - Magnussen 14:3

Not so telling. I would hold, though, that KM beat JB more often on merit than SV beat FA.

Altogether, yes, Magnussen was closer to Button speedwise than Vandoorne to Alonso.
Most drivers (rightfully!) get excuses for their rookie seasons, just Magnussen is always painted in the darkest colours regarding his.

Let me repeat: no conclusion regarding the hierarchy between KM and SV intended!

mikeyg123 wrote:

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:Isn't it?

My gut feeling is not. I could be wrong. You made the statement I would assume you had something to back it up with?

Magnussen started quite well compared to Button but was well beaten throughout the second half of the season.

Back-up to my gut feeling added (above).

And, yes, Magnussen faded in both his first two seasons towards the end. Definitely, a negative point on him.

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:Quick check (numbers accurate?):

Qualifying
Alonso - Vandoorne 16:3
Button - Magnussen 9:10

I would say, qualifying pacewise, KM was definitely closer to JB than SV was to FA.

H2H in races when both finished:
Alonso - Vandoorne 4:1
Button - Magnussen 14:3

Not so telling. I would hold, though, that KM beat JB more often on merit than SV beat FA.

Altogether, yes, Magnussen was closer to Button speedwise than Vandoorne to Alonso.
Most drivers (rightfully!) get excuses for their rookie seasons, just Magnussen is always painted in the darkest colours regarding his.

Let me repeat: no conclusion regarding the hierarchy between KM and SV intended!

I'm surprised at Magnussen's qualy pace and agree he's a better driver than most believe. I think he will beat Grosjean next season tbh.

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:Quick check (numbers accurate?):

Qualifying
Alonso - Vandoorne 16:3
Button - Magnussen 9:10

I would say, qualifying pacewise, KM was definitely closer to JB than SV was to FA.

H2H in races when both finished:
Alonso - Vandoorne 4:1
Button - Magnussen 14:3

Not so telling. I would hold, though, that KM beat JB more often on merit than SV beat FA.

Altogether, yes, Magnussen was closer to Button speedwise than Vandoorne to Alonso.
Most drivers (rightfully!) get excuses for their rookie seasons, just Magnussen is always painted in the darkest colours regarding his.

Let me repeat: no conclusion regarding the hierarchy between KM and SV intended!

Button is a weak qualifier, and everyone knows it. He dominated Magnussen in races, which is where the points are scored. I feel quite comfortable sticking with my assertion that Button smacked him in 2014. All but one of the times I can remember Magnussen finishing ahead it was lucky (such as his podium in Australia, where he started about 10 places ahead of Button and finished just up the road).

I believe Vandoorne beat Alonso once on merit, in Malaysia. I would say Magnussen probably beat Button twice on merit (Austria and USA, although in the USA Button did have a grid penalty). That's a little better, but beating your teammate - even an experienced one - twice on merit over a whole season isn't exactly a glowing recommendation.

As for Palmer, Magnussen was indeed quicker - but after Hulk's total destruction of him, just being quicker than Palmer is not enough.

Thought I’d put it in here instead of creating a new thread.

Planet F1 are saying that FIAT are going to do an Alfa/Sauber type deal with Maserati/Haas

bradtheboywonder wrote:Thought I’d put it in here instead of creating a new thread.

Planet F1 are saying that FIAT are going to do an Alfa/Sauber type deal with Maserati/Haas

Hmmm. More voting power for Ferrari ? Good plan. Also means they are not then the smallest engine supplier so have to supply Red Bull next year

moby wrote:

bradtheboywonder wrote:Thought I’d put it in here instead of creating a new thread.

Planet F1 are saying that FIAT are going to do an Alfa/Sauber type deal with Maserati/Haas

Hmmm. More voting power for Ferrari ? Good plan. Also means they are not then the smallest engine supplier so have to supply Red Bull next year

What do you mean ? They are already supplying Haas in addition to Sauber.

Fantaribo wrote:

moby wrote:

bradtheboywonder wrote:Thought I’d put it in here instead of creating a new thread.

Planet F1 are saying that FIAT are going to do an Alfa/Sauber type deal with Maserati/Haas

Hmmm. More voting power for Ferrari ? Good plan. Also means they are not then the smallest engine supplier so have to supply Red Bull next year

What do you mean ? They are already supplying Haas in addition to Sauber.

The talk is that Ferrari want to put Maserati as the title sponsor at Haas in exchange for a few more bits and pieces and and money off the bill, with potentially some say in the driver line up. Haas is a bit different in that Gene doesn't really need the money if he doesn't want it, and i'm not sure he will want to dilute the Haas name with another brand as his entire reason for being in F1 is to promote the Haas CNC stuff. That said, getting into bed properly with Ferrari before a major round of rule changes and regulation discussion probably isn't the worst idea.