planetf1.com

If next season Hamilton and Vettel were team mates how would the season pan out? Which circuits would suit either driver better and on the neutral circuits how could the drivers try to maximise their chances of victory?

Vettel would win on the circuits he likes and drive into Hamilton on the circuits he didn't. The FIA would get upset but do nothing because they can't ruin the championship battle by penalising one of the contenders.... probably.

ALESI wrote:Vettel would win on the circuits he likes and drive into Hamilton on the circuits he didn't. The FIA would get upset but do nothing because they can't ruin the championship battle by penalising one of the contenders.... probably.

I'm not really going to offer anything here other than I'd love to see that pairing - but it will never happen.

This thread can't possibly turn out well...

ALESI wrote:Vettel would win on the circuits he likes and drive into Hamilton on the circuits he didn't. The FIA would get upset but do nothing because they can't ruin the championship battle by penalising one of the contenders.... probably.

That worked for Rosberg.

Who knows the gap between the pair and it would obviously be advantage to whoever was already at the team the other joined which I think might be enough to sway it for the first season at least.

It would likely be back to who is ahead at turn 1 wins the race too.

Vettel would likely beat Hamilton at Singapore, Japan and Brazil. Hamilton likely beat Vettel at Silverstone and Germany and possibly in the wet too (although that is debatable).

The rest is highly debatable. I think there could easily be +/- 0.250 between them on any given weekend.

What we need is Danny Ric to join Hamilton or rejoin Vettel at Ferrari to get a bigger insight into how good this pair are. If Max continues to beat DR and then DR joins Ferrari and matches/beats SV again, then without doubt SV isn't a top driver. SV would also get the opportunity to banish 2014 as a freak year and secure his status as a top tier driver and all time great who had 1 hiccup in a transition year if he beat DR at Ferrari.

I think you'd see a consistent small margin in favor of Hamilton with perhaps a few exceptions like Singapore. On pace, I peg Vettel as about even with Rosberg.

sandman1347 wrote:I think you'd see a consistent small margin in favor of Hamilton with perhaps a few exceptions like Singapore. On pace, I peg Vettel as about even with Rosberg.

Same, I'd give SV Singapore and Japan too (in SV's top 2-3 tracks, in Hamiltons bottom 2/3) and likely Brazil too since most races will be decided in qualifying and the race to turn 1.

I think it would be epically close and it would definitely turn nasty very quickly.

ALESI wrote:Vettel would win on the circuits he likes and drive into Hamilton on the circuits he didn't. The FIA would get upset but do nothing because they can't ruin the championship battle by penalising one of the contenders.... probably.

Why do interesting threads like this one get this kind of reply ?

I think it would be relatively even between them. Sebastian would push Lewis like he never has been since a long time, and we could see him lose his nerves like he did a handfull of times v. Nico.

Fantaribo wrote:

ALESI wrote:Vettel would win on the circuits he likes and drive into Hamilton on the circuits he didn't. The FIA would get upset but do nothing because they can't ruin the championship battle by penalising one of the contenders.... probably.

Why do interesting threads like this one get this kind of reply ?

I think it would be relatively even between them. Sebastian would push Lewis like he never has been since a long time, and we could see him lose his nerves like he did a handfull of times v. Nico.

Seems one-way. What would Lewis do to Seb?

Fantaribo wrote:

ALESI wrote:Vettel would win on the circuits he likes and drive into Hamilton on the circuits he didn't. The FIA would get upset but do nothing because they can't ruin the championship battle by penalising one of the contenders.... probably.

Why do interesting threads like this one get this kind of reply ?

I think it would be relatively even between them. Sebastian would push Lewis like he never has been since a long time, and we could see him lose his nerves like he did a handfull of times v. Nico.

Which nerves were these?

Invade wrote:

Fantaribo wrote:

ALESI wrote:Vettel would win on the circuits he likes and drive into Hamilton on the circuits he didn't. The FIA would get upset but do nothing because they can't ruin the championship battle by penalising one of the contenders.... probably.

Why do interesting threads like this one get this kind of reply ?

I think it would be relatively even between them. Sebastian would push Lewis like he never has been since a long time, and we could see him lose his nerves like he did a handfull of times v. Nico.

Seems one-way. What would Lewis do to Seb?

I think we'll get equal reactions from both sides, really. As we've seen at Baku, Vettel put under pressure can behave stupidly, but Lewis is made from the same mold (at least temper wise). This will (imo) results in a very tense season.

pokerman wrote:

Fantaribo wrote:

ALESI wrote:Vettel would win on the circuits he likes and drive into Hamilton on the circuits he didn't. The FIA would get upset but do nothing because they can't ruin the championship battle by penalising one of the contenders.... probably.

Why do interesting threads like this one get this kind of reply ?

I think it would be relatively even between them. Sebastian would push Lewis like he never has been since a long time, and we could see him lose his nerves like he did a handfull of times v. Nico.

Which nerves were these?

Hamilton perfected the art of psychological war (or dominance if it suits you). 2014-2016 were filled with declarations, mostly from Lewis, aimed to hurt and put under pressure Rosberg, like that one time he talked about Nico "not wanting it", because he lived his whole life in Monaco, not knowing the struggle to live in a poor small town.

I'd say it would be affected by which car you stick them in. In a Merc Hamilton should have the upper hand at the start of the season, in a Ferrari it would be Seb, in another team that neither know and could theoretically compete at the top it would be very close.
I'd hope that Lewis came out on top, but have no real idea, however I do think if it was close Seb would be more likely to cause incidents that could cost him...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zVUH4t2CUc

Fantaribo wrote:

Invade wrote:

Fantaribo wrote:

ALESI wrote:Vettel would win on the circuits he likes and drive into Hamilton on the circuits he didn't. The FIA would get upset but do nothing because they can't ruin the championship battle by penalising one of the contenders.... probably.

Why do interesting threads like this one get this kind of reply ?

I think it would be relatively even between them. Sebastian would push Lewis like he never has been since a long time, and we could see him lose his nerves like he did a handfull of times v. Nico.

Seems one-way. What would Lewis do to Seb?

I think we'll get equal reactions from both sides, really. As we've seen at Baku, Vettel put under pressure can behave stupidly, but Lewis is made from the same mold (at least temper wise). This will (imo) results in a very tense season.

pokerman wrote:

Fantaribo wrote:

ALESI wrote:Vettel would win on the circuits he likes and drive into Hamilton on the circuits he didn't. The FIA would get upset but do nothing because they can't ruin the championship battle by penalising one of the contenders.... probably.

Why do interesting threads like this one get this kind of reply ?

I think it would be relatively even between them. Sebastian would push Lewis like he never has been since a long time, and we could see him lose his nerves like he did a handfull of times v. Nico.

Which nerves were these?

Hamilton perfected the art of psychological war (or dominance if it suits you). 2014-2016 were filled with declarations, mostly from Lewis, aimed to hurt and put under pressure Rosberg, like that one time he talked about Nico "not wanting it", because he lived his whole life in Monaco, not knowing the struggle to live in a poor small town.

That's not Hamilton losing his nerve and were is this Hamilton temper you seem to have invented?

Agree that it would depend on the team. Mercedes would insist on putting both drivers on the same strategy with the driver who qualified the fastest getting first pit stop, so a lot would come to qualifying. Ferrari has a No1 and No2 driver hierarchy, so how that plays out would be interesting. Red Bull would let them both duke it out, but then there would be a lot of crashing into each other like Seb Vettel and Mark Webber.

Longnose wrote:Agree that it would depend on the team. Mercedes would insist on putting both drivers on the same strategy with the driver who qualified the fastest getting first pit stop, so a lot would come to qualifying. Ferrari has a No1 and No2 driver hierarchy, so how that plays out would be interesting. Red Bull would let them both duke it out, but then there would be a lot of crashing into each other like Seb Vettel and Mark Webber.

No evidence Mercedes would operate any differently to anybody else. It's a different scenario when you have no competition to when you're fighting it out with other cars

Hamilton is the more talented driver, but I think the difference between them would be quite small. Probably smaller than in the case of Rosberg. Vettel could probably come out on top some seasons due to work rate and determination, but on top form I would expect Hamilton to edge out.

SmoothRide wrote:Hamilton is the more talented driver, but I think the difference between them would be quite small. Probably smaller than in the case of Rosberg. Vettel could probably come out on top some seasons due to work rate and determination, but on top form I would expect Hamilton to edge out.

This idea that Hamilton operates just on pure talent is somewhat misplaced.

If Vettel just has a tenth over Rosberg in over one lap (which I think he does), it's enough to match Hamilton in qualifying over a season.

Race pace wise I think that Vettel is better than Rosberg at managing tyres, better at overtaking and defending, and a significantly better wet weather driver.

KingVoid wrote:If Vettel just has a tenth over Rosberg in over one lap (which I think he does), it's enough to match Hamilton in qualifying over a season.

Race pace wise I think that Vettel is better than Rosberg at managing tyres, better at overtaking and defending, and a significantly better wet weather driver.

This is a myth based purely on 2014 (a year where Rosberg admittedly set up his car for qualifying instead of focusing on the race). This was a year where Rosberg would often get pole and be so much slower than Hamilton as to be overtaken on-track during the races and abandoned on race pace. Rosberg was very quick but that average gap is deeply misleading. Average gap is, in general, a totally misleading stat that is too easily skewed by outliers.

In by far the quickest car it could go either way. If other cars were as fast/faster then Hamilton would have Vettel in his pocket.

sandman1347 wrote:This is a myth based purely on 2014 (a year where Rosberg admittedly set up his car for qualifying instead of focusing on the race). This was a year where Rosberg would often get pole and be so much slower than Hamilton as to be overtaken on-track during the races and abandoned on race pace. Rosberg was very quick but that average gap is deeply misleading. Average gap is, in general, a totally misleading stat that is too easily skewed by outliers.

The average gap between Rosberg and Hamilton was 0.134s. If you think the average is misleading, the median gap between Rosberg and Hamilton was 0.130s. Both of these statistics exclude qualies where one driver had technical problems.

If you want to exclude 2013 and 2014 for some reason: in 2015, the average gap was 0.140s, in 2016 it was 0.135s (both in Hamilton's favour).

The overall qualifying battle was 41-37, which turns into 40-28 if you exclude qualifying sessions where one driver had problems. This means Rosberg was ahead 41.1% of the time when both cars were fine.

Hamilton just wasn't that much faster than Rosberg over one lap, there's no escaping this reality. I rate Vettel higher than Rosberg, so in equal cars I reckon Vettel would have Hamilton 50% of the time in qualy.

mikeyg123 wrote:In by far the quickest car it could go either way. If other cars were as fast/faster then Hamilton would have Vettel in his pocket.

Why can't the car suit Vettel, but just not be the fastest of the field?
Vettel did just fine in a Toro Rosso, which evidently was not the fastest car by far.

mds wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:In by far the quickest car it could go either way. If other cars were as fast/faster then Hamilton would have Vettel in his pocket.

Why can't the car suit Vettel, but just not be the fastest of the field?
Vettel did just fine in a Toro Rosso, which evidently was not the fastest car by far.

Who knows how well Hamilton would have done in it? Vettel looked good against Bourdais.

Of course your right the car may really suit Vettel and in that case he could probably beat Lewis in any condition. However I think the chances are Vettel would lose to Hamilton if they had to fight a lot with other drivers.

Alonso and vettel as team mates is the pairing I want to see
and Fernando would beat vettel purely because Alonso is mature and talented, and seb is immature and talented

I'd be interested to see it. I think it would come down to the mental side: if Vettel could keep his head together for an entire season, I believe it would come down to reliability.

If he cracked like he did this year or last, Hamilton would have him. I don't think Hamilton would have another 2011-style meltdown, so I give him the edge.

KingVoid wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:This is a myth based purely on 2014 (a year where Rosberg admittedly set up his car for qualifying instead of focusing on the race). This was a year where Rosberg would often get pole and be so much slower than Hamilton as to be overtaken on-track during the races and abandoned on race pace. Rosberg was very quick but that average gap is deeply misleading. Average gap is, in general, a totally misleading stat that is too easily skewed by outliers.

The average gap between Rosberg and Hamilton was 0.134s. If you think the average is misleading, the median gap between Rosberg and Hamilton was 0.130s. Both of these statistics exclude qualies where one driver had technical problems.

If you want to exclude 2013 and 2014 for some reason: in 2015, the average gap was 0.140s, in 2016 it was 0.135s (both in Hamilton's favour).

The overall qualifying battle was 41-37, which turns into 40-28 if you exclude qualifying sessions where one driver had problems. This means Rosberg was ahead 41.1% of the time when both cars were fine.

Hamilton just wasn't that much faster than Rosberg over one lap, there's no escaping this reality. I rate Vettel higher than Rosberg, so in equal cars I reckon Vettel would have Hamilton 50% of the time in qualy.

Do you have a website that shows those statistics - I am surprised the average gap is so low for 2016. Hamilton beat him nearly 50% of the Q3's they both made by 0.3+

In fact the only qualifying sessions, Nico legitimately beat Hamilton were Germany and Japan. He also did in Singapore but Hamilton missed P2 and P3 and did a total of 2 laps in those sessions (FP1 is in daylight too). Hungary he ran the yellow flags when already 0.3 down on Hamilton and Monaco - Hamilton got one really disjointed run after breaking down in the pit lane exit and still full of fuel for 2 runs. Also Baku too, after Hamilton crashed out in Q2.

Vettel usually only wins if he gets the leads on the first lap. So for me it would be down to qualifying and starts. So who is best at qualifying and who is best at starts? Same car remember!

lamo wrote:Do you have a website that shows those statistics - I am surprised the average gap is so low for 2016. Hamilton beat him nearly 50% of the Q3's they both made by 0.3+

In fact the only qualifying sessions, Nico legitimately beat Hamilton were Germany and Japan. He also did in Singapore but Hamilton missed P2 and P3. Hungary he ran the yellow flags were already 0.3 down on Hamilton and Monaco - Hamilton got one really disjointed run after breaking down in the pit lane exit. Also Baku too, after Hamilton crashed out in Q2.

Scroll down to Marklar's post here.

http://forums.autosport.com/topic/20471 ... try7791025

Also note that Marklar's analysis has in fact a slight Hamilton bias. For instance, he doesn't count Silverstone 2014 where Hamilton failed to set a representative laptime (his own fault), but he counts China 2014 where Rosberg was on course to improve by 1 second before spinning. In his 2013 analysis, he didn't include Abu Dhabi where Hamilton supposedly spun because of a car failure, but he included Canada where Rosberg had no KERS.

Yes, there are some cases like Singapore 2016 where Hamilton didn't get proper practice, but Rosberg didn't get proper practice at Silverstone 2016 either and yet it counts. Hamilton was hampered by yellow flags at Hungary 2016, but Rosberg was much quicker at Belgium 2013 yet hampered by poor timing and that also counts. Yellow flags and poor timing are a part of qualifying. Mechanical problems are excluded.

KingVoid wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:This is a myth based purely on 2014 (a year where Rosberg admittedly set up his car for qualifying instead of focusing on the race). This was a year where Rosberg would often get pole and be so much slower than Hamilton as to be overtaken on-track during the races and abandoned on race pace. Rosberg was very quick but that average gap is deeply misleading. Average gap is, in general, a totally misleading stat that is too easily skewed by outliers.

The average gap between Rosberg and Hamilton was 0.134s. If you think the average is misleading, the median gap between Rosberg and Hamilton was 0.130s. Both of these statistics exclude qualies where one driver had technical problems.

If you want to exclude 2013 and 2014 for some reason: in 2015, the average gap was 0.140s, in 2016 it was 0.135s (both in Hamilton's favour).

The overall qualifying battle was 41-37, which turns into 40-28 if you exclude qualifying sessions where one driver had problems. This means Rosberg was ahead 41.1% of the time when both cars were fine.

Hamilton just wasn't that much faster than Rosberg over one lap, there's no escaping this reality. I rate Vettel higher than Rosberg, so in equal cars I reckon Vettel would have Hamilton 50% of the time in qualy.

I said 2014. I was also pointing out that average gap is a poor stat because outliers affect it too heavily. For example if you exclude the final three meaningless races of 2015 (where Hamilton has admitted to switching off a bit), the average gap jumps by a tenth of a second.

I rate Vettel as about even with Rosberg and I'd say that about 1 and a half tenths is pretty representative of the overall gap that I would expect. Rosberg has been a lot quicker than any other driver he's been teamed with and was generally one of the fastest drivers in F1 so it's not some kind of insult. I was just pointing out that if Vettel is one tenth faster than Rossberg (which I don't think he is), he will still be slower than Hamilton.

KingVoid wrote:If Vettel just has a tenth over Rosberg in over one lap (which I think he does), it's enough to match Hamilton in qualifying over a season.

Race pace wise I think that Vettel is better than Rosberg at managing tyres, better at overtaking and defending, and a significantly better wet weather driver.

Wow, so then Ricciardo would be faster than Hamilton (since he has the qualifying advantage over Vettel), and then Verstappen would be even faster!

KingVoid wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:This is a myth based purely on 2014 (a year where Rosberg admittedly set up his car for qualifying instead of focusing on the race). This was a year where Rosberg would often get pole and be so much slower than Hamilton as to be overtaken on-track during the races and abandoned on race pace. Rosberg was very quick but that average gap is deeply misleading. Average gap is, in general, a totally misleading stat that is too easily skewed by outliers.

The average gap between Rosberg and Hamilton was 0.134s. If you think the average is misleading, the median gap between Rosberg and Hamilton was 0.130s. Both of these statistics exclude qualies where one driver had technical problems.

If you want to exclude 2013 and 2014 for some reason: in 2015, the average gap was 0.140s, in 2016 it was 0.135s (both in Hamilton's favour).

The overall qualifying battle was 41-37, which turns into 40-28 if you exclude qualifying sessions where one driver had problems. This means Rosberg was ahead 41.1% of the time when both cars were fine.

Hamilton just wasn't that much faster than Rosberg over one lap, there's no escaping this reality. I rate Vettel higher than Rosberg, so in equal cars I reckon Vettel would have Hamilton 50% of the time in qualy.

There's not much wrong with your data compilation between Hamilton and Rosberg, but the last part is simply only your opinion.

Option or Prime wrote:Vettel usually only wins if he gets the leads on the first lap. So for me it would be down to qualifying and starts. So who is best at qualifying and who is best at starts? Same car remember!

Really? Because the first time he won this year while leading from the first lap was his 4th win of the year! He's won more races this year when he wasn't in the lead on lap one than when he was. You may as well argue that Hamilton usually only wins when he gets pole, as he's only had one race this year where he's not won from pole - in Singapore - and even then all his rivals managed to neatly take themselves out. But both of those statements do these drivers a disservice

Depends who ruffles who's feathers the most.

Hamilton when he is high on confidence and riding on the wave, is a very hard man to beat. However, reliability, luck and sporting circumstance can still influence him into dips where the world is against him, and go on a run of 5-6 races of up and down performances. Yes the persecution complex is not as bad as it once was, but it still rears its head from time to time. Although with Hamilton that can also go the other way, as again if/when he regains focus and gets the bit between the teeth, he is perfectly capable of going on a run of 3-4 races where he is brilliant.

Vettel I'm unsure about. I think if he gets ahead, and ahead early, he can stay ahead. However, equally, I think you could beat him early and he would just become frustrated and down beat (like Ricciardo at Red Bull). For the 9 seasons Vettel has had a top seat, he's had a strong team mate once - and it clearly bothered him.

I also think Vettel is the more likely of the two to win the internal F1 politics game.

It could be a modern day Prost/Senna type affair.

One thing is for sure, the other teams would probably be way behind. Having two drivers that strong sharing data would push both of them forward to greater heights than they could reach by themselves (or teamed with lesser drivers). That's a big part of what happened with Hamilton/Rosberg. The two of them together made it basically impossible for Mercedes to lose out. That one weekend in Singapore back in 2015 stands out as a total anomaly. Most of the time, at least one of the two of them would figure things out and then the other would be right on their tail. With Hamilton and Vettel, it would be like Senna and Prost. Everyone would just say the car is untouchable lol.

pokerman wrote:There's not much wrong with your data compilation between Hamilton and Rosberg, but the last part is simply only your opinion.

It's indeed my opinion, I think that Vettel > Rosberg, but there's no way to know how Vettel would stack up against Hamilton/Rosberg unless they became teammates.

There were some rumours that Vettel had a pre-contract with Mercedes for 2018 but then extended for Ferrari when the SF70H turned out to be much better than he expected.

pokerman wrote:

ALESI wrote:Vettel would win on the circuits he likes and drive into Hamilton on the circuits he didn't. The FIA would get upset but do nothing because they can't ruin the championship battle by penalising one of the contenders.... probably.

That worked for Rosberg.

Don't forget the sabotage of Hamilton's engines.