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With Max now stitched up until 2020 are Red Bull going the Full Webber on Dan?

I must admit I find it really hard to believe that they’d nobble their #2, but then from here on RB really need Max to continue to dominate not only in terms of qualifying but also on the scoreboard.

Cheers
Noel

You wonder if reports that Danny Ricciardo has lost out on an upgraded engine to Verstappen mean that DR's future at RB is over? Is he following the Renault engine to McLaren I wonder? Why give it to MV when he won't be using it next year?

TBH I really don't get why Renault are only making one upgraded engine, don't you make a batch of them?

More questions than answers.

Option or Prime wrote:You wonder if reports that Danny Ricciardo has lost out on an upgraded engine to Verstappen mean that DR's future at RB is over? Is he following the Renault engine to McLaren I wonder? Why give it to MV when he won't be using it next year?

TBH I really don't get why Renault are only making one upgraded engine, don't you make a batch of them?

More questions than answers.

Renault made 3. One went to Hulk, One to STR(No idea who, I think it was Hartley but all the switching has confused me,lol) and one went to Max.

Some questions as to why Max got it because his engine did one less than Dan's because of Singapore (They both took new ones in Italy) but it could just be Dan had more in his pool because of Max's earlier reliability problems.

RB are claiming it's not worth much so they didn't even tell Dan it was upgraded and he wasn't getting one which is a bit fishy and Renault say it's wort 1-2ths but it's aligned to fuel so it could be that Mobil who supply RB might need an upgrade to get what Renault are getting with BP's upgrade.

Or RB are just full of it and it does give a performance benefit.

Red Bull have a decent history of having one driver getting the better end of the deal than the other. It started with Webber, then Vettel, Kyvat and now Ricciardo. Whether it's deliberate or just an amusing trend, I don't know. My guess is it's a bit of both. Either way, if Ricciardo wants a WDC, he needs to move on sooner rather than later.

DuckMcF wrote:With Max now stitched up until 2020 are Red Bull going the Full Webber on Dan?

I must admit I find it really hard to believe that they’d nobble their #2, but then from here on RB really need Max to continue to dominate not only in terms of qualifying but also on the scoreboard.

Cheers
Noel

I don't think they ever nobbled Webber, tbh, so I don't think "Full Webber" is appropriate.

Sometimes when a driver looks worse it is indeed because he's not as good as his team mate. Doesn't mean the team is doing anything to him

Lotus49 wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:You wonder if reports that Danny Ricciardo has lost out on an upgraded engine to Verstappen mean that DR's future at RB is over? Is he following the Renault engine to McLaren I wonder? Why give it to MV when he won't be using it next year?

TBH I really don't get why Renault are only making one upgraded engine, don't you make a batch of them?

More questions than answers.

Renault made 3. One went to Hulk, One to STR(No idea who, I think it was Hartley but all the switching has confused me,lol) and one went to Max.

Some questions as to why Max got it because his engine did one less than Dan's because of Singapore (They both took new ones in Italy) but it could just be Dan had more in his pool because of Max's earlier reliability problems.

RB are claiming it's not worth much so they didn't even tell Dan it was upgraded and he wasn't getting one which is a bit fishy and Renault say it's wort 1-2ths but it's aligned to fuel so it could be that Mobil who supply RB might need an upgrade to get what Renault are getting with BP's upgrade.

Or RB are just full of it and it does give a performance benefit.

Thank you, that fills in a lot of gaps!

Zoue wrote:[

Sometimes when a driver looks worse it is indeed because he's not as good as his team mate. Doesn't mean the team is doing anything to him

Max has a lot more to prove to show he is better than Dan imo.

Mr-E wrote:

Zoue wrote:[

Sometimes when a driver looks worse it is indeed because he's not as good as his team mate. Doesn't mean the team is doing anything to him

Max has a lot more to prove to show he is better than Dan imo.

has he? he's already looking quicker than him and he's no slouch at aggressive overtaking moves, either. That's not to say it's definitive, but at this point I'd say "a lot more to prove" is very wide of the mark. And it's not because Ricciardo is bad, just that Max is looking the stronger of the two, bar perhaps temperament. At the very least he's shown that he can happily take the fight to Ricciardo

Option or Prime wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:You wonder if reports that Danny Ricciardo has lost out on an upgraded engine to Verstappen mean that DR's future at RB is over? Is he following the Renault engine to McLaren I wonder? Why give it to MV when he won't be using it next year?

TBH I really don't get why Renault are only making one upgraded engine, don't you make a batch of them?

More questions than answers.

Renault made 3. One went to Hulk, One to STR(No idea who, I think it was Hartley but all the switching has confused me,lol) and one went to Max.

Some questions as to why Max got it because his engine did one less than Dan's because of Singapore (They both took new ones in Italy) but it could just be Dan had more in his pool because of Max's earlier reliability problems.

RB are claiming it's not worth much so they didn't even tell Dan it was upgraded and he wasn't getting one which is a bit fishy and Renault say it's wort 1-2ths but it's aligned to fuel so it could be that Mobil who supply RB might need an upgrade to get what Renault are getting with BP's upgrade.

Or RB are just full of it and it does give a performance benefit.

Thank you, that fills in a lot of gaps!

Can't believe his new unit went pop after 7 laps, he's having a rotten run right now.

Lotus49 wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:You wonder if reports that Danny Ricciardo has lost out on an upgraded engine to Verstappen mean that DR's future at RB is over? Is he following the Renault engine to McLaren I wonder? Why give it to MV when he won't be using it next year?

TBH I really don't get why Renault are only making one upgraded engine, don't you make a batch of them?

More questions than answers.

Renault made 3. One went to Hulk, One to STR(No idea who, I think it was Hartley but all the switching has confused me,lol) and one went to Max.

Some questions as to why Max got it because his engine did one less than Dan's because of Singapore (They both took new ones in Italy) but it could just be Dan had more in his pool because of Max's earlier reliability problems.

RB are claiming it's not worth much so they didn't even tell Dan it was upgraded and he wasn't getting one which is a bit fishy and Renault say it's wort 1-2ths but it's aligned to fuel so it could be that Mobil who supply RB might need an upgrade to get what Renault are getting with BP's upgrade.

Or RB are just full of it and it does give a performance benefit.

Thank you, that fills in a lot of gaps!

Can't believe his new unit went pop after 7 laps, he's having a rotten run right now.

It's terribly unlucky for Daniel of late but I think Max went through this in the first half of the season so it evens out a bit within the team and becomes more representative in terms of the points.

sandman1347 wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:You wonder if reports that Danny Ricciardo has lost out on an upgraded engine to Verstappen mean that DR's future at RB is over? Is he following the Renault engine to McLaren I wonder? Why give it to MV when he won't be using it next year?

TBH I really don't get why Renault are only making one upgraded engine, don't you make a batch of them?

More questions than answers.

Renault made 3. One went to Hulk, One to STR(No idea who, I think it was Hartley but all the switching has confused me,lol) and one went to Max.

Some questions as to why Max got it because his engine did one less than Dan's because of Singapore (They both took new ones in Italy) but it could just be Dan had more in his pool because of Max's earlier reliability problems.

RB are claiming it's not worth much so they didn't even tell Dan it was upgraded and he wasn't getting one which is a bit fishy and Renault say it's wort 1-2ths but it's aligned to fuel so it could be that Mobil who supply RB might need an upgrade to get what Renault are getting with BP's upgrade.

Or RB are just full of it and it does give a performance benefit.

Thank you, that fills in a lot of gaps!

Can't believe his new unit went pop after 7 laps, he's having a rotten run right now.

It's terribly unlucky for Daniel of late but I think Max went through this in the first half of the season so it evens out a bit within the team and becomes more representative in terms of the points.

Yeah, true. I think there's only 1 retirement between them now but could be wrong.

I think Riccardo has known for awhile that Max was the future of RBR. I knew as soon as I saw Dr Helmut Marko's (spelling?) reaction to the incident at Hungry.

Riccardo explaining his version of events to the good Dr followed by a quick sentence from the team owner.. then a very dejected and angry looking Riccardo holding back what I assumed were some serious swear words.

I knew then that Riccardo was probably ready to move on. I think Dan is holding out as long as he can to see how the driver market for 2019 develops.

As an aussie I'm a massive Danny Ric fan.. but Max is younger and sadly faster at this point. Dan would do well to try and snag Bottas's seat at Merc for 2019... while people are saying Merc won't dump Bottas as he's a team player and has done the job to help secure another WCC it won't be the case ( I believe) if Dan ends up at Ferrari picking up points where Kimi couldn't. I think a Vettel/Riccardo pairing would edge a Ham/Bottas pairing for WCC.

Of course thats if car performance in 2019 is relatively the same as 2017.

Either way.. I think Dan will be moved to the other garage spot next season and might be in for a rough season playing second fiddle in alot of ways.. car development, strategy calls etc.

Hopefully I'm wrong but the webber years have left me bitter and cynical towards RBR.

With Max and Dan being my 2 favourite drivers I really hope the Redbull is strong next year and they're allowed to race. However, were I in Redbulls position and I had the choice of investing in a driver signed longterm and I driver who will almost certainly leave the following year - I know who I would be supporting.

One thing that almost never comes up in these sorts of discussions is, 'Succession planning'.

Sure Merc could maintain the status quo with LEW and BOT and likely win a few more championships, but they were really caught on the hop when ROS retired late last year and had to scramble to pick up BOT, which I'm sure taught them a lesson.

As a big corporation used to long term strategic planning they'll be all too well aware that they'll need an A grade driver to take over when Lewis either retires or declines in his old age in order to keep Max and the other young guns at bay.

It strikes me that a 2019 combo of LEW & RIC would work well. LEW would be happy as he'd likely be the faster of the two and RIC would be happy that he'd be in straight out fair fight with LEW without the slightest hint of receiving a Webbering.

It's very early to be jumping on the accusation train. Let's not forget Verstappen had some pretty ordinary luck earlier in the year (he could potentially have won in Baku if not for another mechanical failure there). The engine choice is a bit iffy, and I choose to believe Renault when they say there is a genuine advantage to having the newer model - but that's to be expected. Ricciardo beat Vettel and was Red Bull's wonder man for a couple of years. Verstappen has come in and has challenged Ricciardo and now that role has changed. It makes sense; VES is younger, and thus probably more loyal to the Red Bull brand as he hasn't had a good chance to look around and talk to other teams yet; being younger he's probably cheaper than Ricciardo as well; being European, he's much more marketable I'm sure (the sea of orange shirts at almost every race these days just about proves that).

I'd have liked to have seen what could have been the race at the front in Mexico if Hamilton and Vettel hadn't had their races ruined, and Ricciardo hadn't broken down. Going from 16th(?) to 9th in the opening lap showed Daniel was up for a fight. He'd even told Marko pre-race that he was targetting 7th place at the end of the first lap. In the end he got there one lap later than scheduled.

Given the lack of overtaking throughout the race, though, it might have been a fizzle. As it actually panned out Ricciardo was unlucky and things all fell Verstappen's way. It's a reverse of earlier this year where Verstappen seemed to be getting all the bad luck and Daniel was having a comfortable mid-part of the year. Unluckily for #3, his couple of consecutive retirements have come at a time when Red Bull might well have the best car on the grid. I'd not be all that surprised if they won these final two races of the year as well.

Both drivers have had some bloody good drives in 2017, though Verstappen has undoubtedly had a bit more flare. Given that Verstappen has retired two more times and is 44 points behind (out of a max 50 remaining available this year) it probably shows just how close the two have been over the course of the season.

sandman1347 wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:You wonder if reports that Danny Ricciardo has lost out on an upgraded engine to Verstappen mean that DR's future at RB is over? Is he following the Renault engine to McLaren I wonder? Why give it to MV when he won't be using it next year?

TBH I really don't get why Renault are only making one upgraded engine, don't you make a batch of them?

More questions than answers.

Renault made 3. One went to Hulk, One to STR(No idea who, I think it was Hartley but all the switching has confused me,lol) and one went to Max.

Some questions as to why Max got it because his engine did one less than Dan's because of Singapore (They both took new ones in Italy) but it could just be Dan had more in his pool because of Max's earlier reliability problems.

RB are claiming it's not worth much so they didn't even tell Dan it was upgraded and he wasn't getting one which is a bit fishy and Renault say it's wort 1-2ths but it's aligned to fuel so it could be that Mobil who supply RB might need an upgrade to get what Renault are getting with BP's upgrade.

Or RB are just full of it and it does give a performance benefit.

Thank you, that fills in a lot of gaps!

Can't believe his new unit went pop after 7 laps, he's having a rotten run right now.

It's terribly unlucky for Daniel of late but I think Max went through this in the first half of the season so it evens out a bit within the team and becomes more representative in terms of the points.

Yes that might be true however when Max was having problems the Red Bull was not a race winning car on pure pace alone like it is now at some circuits.
(= Dan losing potentially more points than Max did per DNF)

Randine wrote: Yes that might be true however when Max was having problems the Red Bull was not a race winning car on pure pace alone like it is now at some circuits.
(= Dan losing potentially more points than Max did per DNF)

While that might be true, you have to take into account what each DNF cost separately. I mean, in Baku Max' DNF costed him the win (Hamilton, Vettel, Perez, Raikkonen were in front), while Daniel could not aim more than 3rd in Mexico (starting at the back, Max and Valterri too far ahead).

So saying "Dan losing potentially more points than Max did per DNF" is not that simple.

Definitely I think RBR would favor him over Ricciardo especially after the contract. I do not think he wanted to go to Ferrari or Mercedes with Vettel and Hamilton there. I think here he can build a team around him or that is what RBR are hoping

He's not bad for a number 2 driver though

Glasnost wrote:I think Riccardo has known for awhile that Max was the future of RBR. I knew as soon as I saw Dr Helmut Marko's (spelling?) reaction to the incident at Hungry.

Riccardo explaining his version of events to the good Dr followed by a quick sentence from the team owner.. then a very dejected and angry looking Riccardo holding back what I assumed were some serious swear words.

I knew then that Riccardo was probably ready to move on. I think Dan is holding out as long as he can to see how the driver market for 2019 develops.

As an aussie I'm a massive Danny Ric fan.. but Max is younger and sadly faster at this point. Dan would do well to try and snag Bottas's seat at Merc for 2019... while people are saying Merc won't dump Bottas as he's a team player and has done the job to help secure another WCC it won't be the case ( I believe) if Dan ends up at Ferrari picking up points where Kimi couldn't. I think a Vettel/Riccardo pairing would edge a Ham/Bottas pairing for WCC.

Of course thats if car performance in 2019 is relatively the same as 2017.

Either way.. I think Dan will be moved to the other garage spot next season and might be in for a rough season playing second fiddle in alot of ways.. car development, strategy calls etc.

Hopefully I'm wrong but the webber years have left me bitter and cynical towards RBR.

100% agree.

DuckMcF wrote:One thing that almost never comes up in these sorts of discussions is, 'Succession planning'.

Sure Merc could maintain the status quo with LEW and BOT and likely win a few more championships, but they were really caught on the hop when ROS retired late last year and had to scramble to pick up BOT, which I'm sure taught them a lesson.

As a big corporation used to long term strategic planning they'll be all too well aware that they'll need an A grade driver to take over when Lewis either retires or declines in his old age in order to keep Max and the other young guns at bay.

It strikes me that a 2019 combo of LEW & RIC would work well. LEW would be happy as he'd likely be the faster of the two and RIC would be happy that he'd be in straight out fair fight with LEW without the slightest hint of receiving a Webbering.

The problem with your succession planning is that if Ricciardo is giving second best to Verstappen then he will be looked upon as a #2 driver.

sandman1347 wrote:
It's terribly unlucky for Daniel of late but I think Max went through this in the first half of the season so it evens out a bit within the team and becomes more representative in terms of the points.

Ricciardo's now had worse luck with reliability than Verstappen. 3 engine failures and 1 brake failure for each driver in the race, Ricciardo also had an engine issue in qualifying for Silverstone that ruined his weekend.

Max is trailing Daniel because he's had 3 first lap collisions that have resulted in retirements.

GingerFurball wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:
It's terribly unlucky for Daniel of late but I think Max went through this in the first half of the season so it evens out a bit within the team and becomes more representative in terms of the points.

Ricciardo's now had worse luck with reliability than Verstappen. 3 engine failures and 1 brake failure for each driver in the race, Ricciardo also had an engine issue in qualifying for Silverstone that ruined his weekend.

Max is trailing Daniel because he's had 3 first lap collisions that have resulted in retirements.

None of which were his fault. So that's another three bad luck DNF's for Verstappen.

Dan has also had a non fault retirement in Hungary of course.

mikeyg123 wrote:

GingerFurball wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:
It's terribly unlucky for Daniel of late but I think Max went through this in the first half of the season so it evens out a bit within the team and becomes more representative in terms of the points.

Ricciardo's now had worse luck with reliability than Verstappen. 3 engine failures and 1 brake failure for each driver in the race, Ricciardo also had an engine issue in qualifying for Silverstone that ruined his weekend.

Max is trailing Daniel because he's had 3 first lap collisions that have resulted in retirements.

None of which were his fault. So that's another three bad luck DNF's for Verstappen.

Dan has also had a non fault retirement in Hungary of course.

Spain was Verstappen's fault.

There's a reason first lap collisions follow him around. When he gets lucky, as he did yesterday, he looks spectacular, but he could quite easily have taken a puncture yesterday and had his race ruined.

Ironically the only time Daniel has had trouble on the first lap, it was Max's fault.

GingerFurball wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

GingerFurball wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:
It's terribly unlucky for Daniel of late but I think Max went through this in the first half of the season so it evens out a bit within the team and becomes more representative in terms of the points.

Ricciardo's now had worse luck with reliability than Verstappen. 3 engine failures and 1 brake failure for each driver in the race, Ricciardo also had an engine issue in qualifying for Silverstone that ruined his weekend.

Max is trailing Daniel because he's had 3 first lap collisions that have resulted in retirements.

None of which were his fault. So that's another three bad luck DNF's for Verstappen.

Dan has also had a non fault retirement in Hungary of course.

Spain was Verstappen's fault.

There's a reason first lap collisions follow him around. When he gets lucky, as he did yesterday, he looks spectacular, but he could quite easily have taken a puncture yesterday and had his race ruined.

Ironically the only time Daniel has had trouble on the first lap, it was Max's fault.

How was Spain Max' fault ? Bottas and Raikkonen collide at the apex and Max got collected by Kimi.
The reason first lap collisions follow him around, as you say, is that he is not a title contender, and has nothing to lose to try daring moves at the start. This season, he has been aggressive, but respected the rules.

GingerFurball wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

GingerFurball wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:
It's terribly unlucky for Daniel of late but I think Max went through this in the first half of the season so it evens out a bit within the team and becomes more representative in terms of the points.

Ricciardo's now had worse luck with reliability than Verstappen. 3 engine failures and 1 brake failure for each driver in the race, Ricciardo also had an engine issue in qualifying for Silverstone that ruined his weekend.

Max is trailing Daniel because he's had 3 first lap collisions that have resulted in retirements.

None of which were his fault. So that's another three bad luck DNF's for Verstappen.

Dan has also had a non fault retirement in Hungary of course.

Spain was Verstappen's fault.

There's a reason first lap collisions follow him around. When he gets lucky, as he did yesterday, he looks spectacular, but he could quite easily have taken a puncture yesterday and had his race ruined.

Ironically the only time Daniel has had trouble on the first lap, it was Max's fault.

Exactly when you make high risk passes at the start it's not unlucky when they go wrong.

GingerFurball wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

GingerFurball wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:
It's terribly unlucky for Daniel of late but I think Max went through this in the first half of the season so it evens out a bit within the team and becomes more representative in terms of the points.

Ricciardo's now had worse luck with reliability than Verstappen. 3 engine failures and 1 brake failure for each driver in the race, Ricciardo also had an engine issue in qualifying for Silverstone that ruined his weekend.

Max is trailing Daniel because he's had 3 first lap collisions that have resulted in retirements.

None of which were his fault. So that's another three bad luck DNF's for Verstappen.

Dan has also had a non fault retirement in Hungary of course.

Spain was Verstappen's fault.

There's a reason first lap collisions follow him around. When he gets lucky, as he did yesterday, he looks spectacular, but he could quite easily have taken a puncture yesterday and had his race ruined.

Ironically the only time Daniel has had trouble on the first lap, it was Max's fault.

Spain he was collected by someone else's accident. What did he do wrong? Austria he was collected by an accident behind him. Absolutely nothing he could do about that, and there is Singapore. None of these were "high risk" start moves.

pokerman wrote:

DuckMcF wrote:One thing that almost never comes up in these sorts of discussions is, 'Succession planning'.

Sure Merc could maintain the status quo with LEW and BOT and likely win a few more championships, but they were really caught on the hop when ROS retired late last year and had to scramble to pick up BOT, which I'm sure taught them a lesson.

As a big corporation used to long term strategic planning they'll be all too well aware that they'll need an A grade driver to take over when Lewis either retires or declines in his old age in order to keep Max and the other young guns at bay.

It strikes me that a 2019 combo of LEW & RIC would work well. LEW would be happy as he'd likely be the faster of the two and RIC would be happy that he'd be in straight out fair fight with LEW without the slightest hint of receiving a Webbering.

The problem with your succession planning is that if Ricciardo is giving second best to Verstappen then he will be looked upon as a #2 driver.

Perhaps you're right. I guess my main point is that Merc can't let the LEW/BOT combo just drift on if BOT doesn't seriously start pushing LEW in 2018.

mikeyg123 wrote:

GingerFurball wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

GingerFurball wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:
It's terribly unlucky for Daniel of late but I think Max went through this in the first half of the season so it evens out a bit within the team and becomes more representative in terms of the points.

Ricciardo's now had worse luck with reliability than Verstappen. 3 engine failures and 1 brake failure for each driver in the race, Ricciardo also had an engine issue in qualifying for Silverstone that ruined his weekend.

Max is trailing Daniel because he's had 3 first lap collisions that have resulted in retirements.

None of which were his fault. So that's another three bad luck DNF's for Verstappen.

Dan has also had a non fault retirement in Hungary of course.

Spain was Verstappen's fault.

There's a reason first lap collisions follow him around. When he gets lucky, as he did yesterday, he looks spectacular, but he could quite easily have taken a puncture yesterday and had his race ruined.

Ironically the only time Daniel has had trouble on the first lap, it was Max's fault.

Spain he was collected by someone else's accident. What did he do wrong? Austria he was collected by an accident behind him. Absolutely nothing he could do about that, and there is Singapore. None of these were "high risk" start moves.

Outside of T1 in Spain is pretty risky tbf but in his defense he thought it was the outside of just 1 car, Kimi's, but Bottas braking so early turned it into 3 wide and that's where Max got unlucky for me.

Lotus49 wrote: Outside of T1 in Spain is pretty risky tbf but in his defense he thought it was the outside of just 1 car, Kimi's, but Bottas braking so early turned it into 3 wide and that's where Max got unlucky for me.

Yeah I guess it's a small risk, but a risk that almost half the field took. Even three wide should be fine. He left plenty of room for both cars. All he's relying on is Kimi and Bottas not having an accident.

mikeyg123 wrote:

Lotus49 wrote: Outside of T1 in Spain is pretty risky tbf but in his defense he thought it was the outside of just 1 car, Kimi's, but Bottas braking so early turned it into 3 wide and that's where Max got unlucky for me.

Yeah I guess it's a small risk, but a risk that almost half the field took. Even three wide should be fine. He left plenty of room for both cars. All he's relying on is Kimi and Bottas not having an accident.

Aye,true.

Ricciardo will need to size things up at Red Bull next season. Helmut is already looking at Max like he's a snack. He used to look at Vettel like that

BMWSauber84 wrote:Ricciardo will need to size things up at Red Bull next season. Helmut is already looking at Max like he's a snack. He used to look at Vettel like that

He is a disturbing figure isn't he? Like the man in the van at the local park watching the kids play.