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pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

netdog wrote:It really is sad. They are delaying choosing a driver because the choices available all suck.

Why didn't they just keep Massa on for another year? He may be over the hill, but Sirotkin and Stroll? Or Kubicza and Stroll?

Heaven help Williams.

Delaying the decision is a no brainer for achieving what they want. A bidding war. It's pretty clear that as long as the driver is reasonable the seat will go to however comes up with the most cash.

Well word on the street is that Kubica is definitely out of the running because he is 4 tenths slower than Stroll, that puts him close to a second slower than Massa.

Basically all the drivers they have tested are slower than Massa, be it Kubica, Sirotkin or di Resta, so do they cast their net out further towards a Wehrlein or even a Kvyat?

do you know which street this is?

Jo Saward.

thanks!

Maybe they should ask Massa to un-retire again

Covalent wrote:Maybe they should ask Massa to un-retire again

Massa back in the run, you heard it here first people!

spiritone wrote:It wasn't the 4th best package and the rest of the years results proved it. They couldn't develop out the flaws according to paddy. There is the anomaly of why the chassis was better in the rain in the hands of all people lance stroll at monza where he out qualified ocon by 7 tenths and his teammate by over a second. So the theory that the f1 drivers would be faster than the williams drivers in the williams took a knock that day. Especially since rain is supposed to be the great equalizer.

It's annoying how much effort went in to creating my post and how you completely missed the point

The Williams and Sauber situations are a sad state of affairs really. I know the concept junior teams is much derided, but if Sauber were a total Ferrari junior team, then there is no way in hell that Marcus Ericcson would still be clogging up the grid.

Williams are of course multiple time world champions, so them becoming a feeder team is unthinkable. Having two pay drivers is a false economy for a midfield team in my opinion. Every penny that Stroll and Sirovtkin bring in will be more than offset by the decline in constructors championship position.

Perhaps they are already resigned to Renault and Mclaren bumping them down to 7th next year. They might even need to be wary of Haas.

BMWSauber84 wrote:The Williams and Sauber situations are a sad state of affairs really. I know the concept junior teams is much derided, but if Sauber were a total Ferrari junior team, then there is no way in hell that Marcus Ericcson would still be clogging up the grid.

Williams are of course multiple time world champions, so them becoming a feeder team is unthinkable. Having two pay drivers is a false economy for a midfield team in my opinion. Every penny that Stroll and Sirovtkin bring in will be more than offset by the decline in constructors championship position.

Perhaps they are already resigned to Renault and Mclaren bumping them down to 7th next year. They might even need to be wary of Haas.

I still don't get why so many are against Ericsson. He may be a pay driver, but he's nothing like as bad as most suggest. Drivers like Sainz and Kvyat have caused more retirements than Ericsson this year. And Ericsson himself has had at least several decent races. Over 2014 and early 2015, I thought he was about the worst on the grid. But since then, I think he's just about good enough to deserve to be in the sport now even without his money. But I agree he is lucky to have had so many chances. But I think in time, he has proven to be good enough. The fact he's got no points really doesn't reflect his performance over the past 2 years. He was clearly better than Nasr last year and other than having more incidents than Wehrlein this year, their pace was often pretty much identical. They were the closest pair on the grid in terms of the average qualifying gap and they have both had good and bad races. Wehrlein had just been fortunate that when he's been good, there have been enough retirements to result in a points finish. Ericsson would likely have managed points in Baku and Mexico if things had gone his way. Same with Mexico last year. He was 11th and only a Manor retired. If there had been several top drivers retire that race, he could have been well into the points.

I don't think Ericsson is a good driver on the whole. But I just don't understand the criticism he gets. Of course there will be better drivers, but he's been with Sauber for so long now that maybe they value his feedback and that could be one reason why they keep him. We just don't know other reasons why they may actually want him. I'm pretty sure money won't be the only reason.

With Williams, I do find it a shame they didn't keep Massa. As I am certain he's be a better driver than any they are considering. At least to begin with. But as some have pointed out to me, I think it is related to the amount of money Massa was wanting from Williams. In one of his interviews as to why he was leaving, it even seemed that you could tell from his wording that he didn't want to leave, but it was something relating to his pay. Can't be certain though. But Stroll really didn't impress this year. But if his money does benefit the team and he stays there for another year, I can easily see him becoming at leased decent. He has had a few stand out performances this year, but mainly very poor.

I still think William's best option now may be Kvyat. He's had a bad couple of years, but things could turn around with a completely new team and he could be back to being reasonably strong like in 2015. It was lucky that he beat Ricciardo in 2015, but he's got to take some credit for that. He's also been in the spot for almost 4 years. Experience will surely be essential for Williams with one of their drivers. Di Resta may also be a reasonable choise as he at least has been with Williams over the last year but then has only races once since 2013 and has had virtually no experience in the hybrid era. Wehrlein also seemed to be a possibility. But he's only had 2 years in F1 and he only looks marginally better than Ericsson. At leased Kvyat was decent in his first year and fairly strong the next. He's still young and I can see his recent drop in form turning around. But It will be a bit sad if Williams go few someone who hasn't even raced in F1 and put them against Stroll who has just been dominated by Massa who they's just kicked out. That will be an extremelly weak combination unless the rookie driver and Stroll turn out to be incredible next year.

Siao7 wrote:

Covalent wrote:Maybe they should ask Massa to un-retire again

Massa back in the run, you heard it here first people!

Uh... no. That would make Williams look even more disorganized.

Covalent wrote:Maybe they should ask Massa to un-retire again

Coming back to this Williams would probably like this to happen after realising that none of the possible replacements can fill his shoes but it's gone way past that happening now in respect for Massa.

ESPN speculates this morning that the Williams driver vacancy is down to two names... Robert Kubica and Russian youngster Sergey Sirotkin...
http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/219 ... s-top-half

A shame that Williams may once again stoop to accept another driver (Sirotkin) paying for the ride, an estimated £15 million. I suppose the team's fall from the top tier requires atonement -- with cash -- to rebuild its hopes. But the record is clear. Drivers who earn their way up with dedicated hard work (only) have succeeded more often than those whose purse is valued equally, if not more. The sport seldom rewards casual money.

It's also a pity that Williams may succumb to the emotional, heartstring-pulling, political correctness of picking Kubica. I like Kubica. But he will not advance the team to anyone's expectations. Seven-time WC Schumacher laid out for 3 years before attempting a comeback, without success. Robert has been out of the game twice as long, and still compensates for injuries that did not handicap an able-bodied Schumacher. Kubica's efforts are gallant, but the sport seldom rewards sentimentalism.

Daniil Kvyat is believed to still have an outside shot as the back-up option. Does he still have Russian money backing him, too?

On balance, it's disappointing that no other driver (available) can measure up to the team's name, heritage and history.

They would very much like a championship, but staying in business has to come first. I just hope that a year or two of this puts them in a position to do what they want to do not what they must do.

MB-BOB wrote:It's also a pity that Williams may succumb to the emotional, heartstring-pulling, political correctness of picking Kubica. I like Kubica. But he will not advance the team to anyone's expectations. Seven-time WC Schumacher laid out for 3 years before attempting a comeback, without success. Robert has been out of the game twice as long, and still compensates for injuries that did not handicap an able-bodied Schumacher. Kubica's efforts are gallant, but the sport seldom rewards sentimentalism.

Picking Kubica has nothing to do with political correctness. If they pick him, it'll be because they think he still has more speed than Sirotkin. If 'political correctness' was making the decision, they'd have announced him months ago.

MB-BOB wrote:ESPN speculates this morning that the Williams driver vacancy is down to two names... Robert Kubica and Russian youngster Sergey Sirotkin...
http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/219 ... s-top-half

A shame that Williams may once again stoop to accept another driver (Sirotkin) paying for the ride, an estimated £15 million. I suppose the team's fall from the top tier requires atonement -- with cash -- to rebuild its hopes. But the record is clear. Drivers who earn their way up with dedicated hard work (only) have succeeded more often than those whose purse is valued equally, if not more. The sport seldom rewards casual money.

It's also a pity that Williams may succumb to the emotional, heartstring-pulling, political correctness of picking Kubica. I like Kubica. But he will not advance the team to anyone's expectations. Seven-time WC Schumacher laid out for 3 years before attempting a comeback, without success. Robert has been out of the game twice as long, and still compensates for injuries that did not handicap an able-bodied Schumacher. Kubica's efforts are gallant, but the sport seldom rewards sentimentalism.

Daniil Kvyat is believed to still have an outside shot as the back-up option. Does he still have Russian money backing him, too?

On balance, it's disappointing that no other driver (available) can measure up to the team's name, heritage and history.

They're both paying for the ride. Kubica's backers are even offering more per race allegedly ($7m for a 7 race run). Sirotkin 15m for the season.

Sky were saying whoever was quickest out of the two drivers who brought the most money would get the gig and that looks like Sirotkin.

Williams really screwed this one up. What a shame.

I know money talks but they should go for the other Mercedes junior - Wehrlein.

There was a time in 2016 when he along with Haryanto & Ocon had the best chance of moving to a midfield team based just on performance. But performance alone doesn't guarantee a drive as it got proved by Force India snubbing Wehrlein & choosing Ocon.

Midfield this year again is going to be tight & even more competitive. I see all the midfield teams getting stronger (being positive even for Toro Rosso & Sauber). If Sirotkin is chosen & takes a year to come upto speed then Williams could be languishing at the bottom of the midfield group this year.

netdog wrote:Williams really screwed this one up. What a shame.

I think Williams have the situation they wanted.

UnlikeUday wrote:I know money talks but they should go for the other Mercedes junior - Wehrlein.

There was a time in 2016 when he along with Haryanto & Ocon had the best chance of moving to a midfield team based just on performance. But performance alone doesn't guarantee a drive as it got proved by Force India snubbing Wehrlein & choosing Ocon.

Midfield this year again is going to be tight & even more competitive. I see all the midfield teams getting stronger (being positive even for Toro Rosso & Sauber). If Sirotkin is chosen & takes a year to come upto speed then Williams could be languishing at the bottom of the midfield group this year.

Bottom of the midfield means backmarker then?

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:

UnlikeUday wrote:I know money talks but they should go for the other Mercedes junior - Wehrlein.

There was a time in 2016 when he along with Haryanto & Ocon had the best chance of moving to a midfield team based just on performance. But performance alone doesn't guarantee a drive as it got proved by Force India snubbing Wehrlein & choosing Ocon.

Midfield this year again is going to be tight & even more competitive. I see all the midfield teams getting stronger (being positive even for Toro Rosso & Sauber). If Sirotkin is chosen & takes a year to come upto speed then Williams could be languishing at the bottom of the midfield group this year.

Bottom of the midfield means backmarker then?

They surely will be better than Toro Rosso, Haas & Sauber.

UnlikeUday wrote:

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:

UnlikeUday wrote:I know money talks but they should go for the other Mercedes junior - Wehrlein.

There was a time in 2016 when he along with Haryanto & Ocon had the best chance of moving to a midfield team based just on performance. But performance alone doesn't guarantee a drive as it got proved by Force India snubbing Wehrlein & choosing Ocon.

Midfield this year again is going to be tight & even more competitive. I see all the midfield teams getting stronger (being positive even for Toro Rosso & Sauber). If Sirotkin is chosen & takes a year to come upto speed then Williams could be languishing at the bottom of the midfield group this year.

Bottom of the midfield means backmarker then?

They surely will be better than Toro Rosso, Haas & Sauber.

The car probably will be.

I can see both Sauber and Haas finishing ahead of them, mostly on driver quality.

In today's Formula One, the car is over 75% in determining the outcome. If you have a very good car, you could drop in just about anyone with a Superlicence and you will have success.

For Williams, they are still trying to find long term stable success. Thus they need money and favors more than a "great and wonderful" driver.

For myself, and I am sure many other fans who watched Robert race, there is a powerful emotional attachment that influences our rational thought. I want Robert to have that seat just because he was exciting and fast in his previous Formula One days. I understand that my emotions are clouding my judgement.

Blinky McSquinty wrote:In today's Formula One, the car is over 75% in determining the outcome. If you have a very good car, you could drop in just about anyone with a Superlicence and you will have success.

For Williams, they are still trying to find long term stable success. Thus they need money and favors more than a "great and wonderful" driver.

For myself, and I am sure many other fans who watched Robert race, there is a powerful emotional attachment that influences our rational thought. I want Robert to have that seat just because he was exciting and fast in his previous Formula One days. I understand that my emotions are clouding my judgement.

I think at the top end the drivers matter less than in the middle. The mid pack is often separated by the drivers with the cars coming in fairly equal. Look at Palmer and Hulkenberg at Renault for an example of that.

I hope Massa will un-retire again. That would be a story!

Llotyhy wrote:I can see both Sauber and Haas finishing ahead of them, mostly on driver quality.

Yea. I can see sauber making a huge step forward with their car; Current ferrari pu, new sponsorship...Whatever people think of Ericsson he is still an experienced driver who reportedly has been yearning for a better car and Leclerc is supposed to be very good. I will not be shocked if they are the 6th best team and challenging FI.

There is more than just a driver change that makes williams interesting this year. This will be the debut of the paddy lowe williams. Will all the knowledge he accumulated at merc result in a more competitive william s. I suspect being stuck with last years dud he will be making quite a few changes.

As far as the drivers williams is in a tuff spot. Not a very good car last year and a new design for this year doesn't help in tempting top drivers to come to this team. Like williams and hope that they can turn their fortunes around.

kleefton wrote:

Llotyhy wrote:I can see both Sauber and Haas finishing ahead of them, mostly on driver quality.

Yea. I can see sauber making a huge step forward with their car; Current ferrari pu, new sponsorship...Whatever people think of Ericsson he is still an experienced driver who reportedly has been yearning for a better car and Leclerc is supposed to be very good. I will not be shocked if they are the 6th best team and challenging FI.

I will be; Force India is way too strong, and has a very good lineup of their own. Sauber should be looking to beat Haas and Toro Rosso this year, not the top team in the midfield.

Exediron wrote:

kleefton wrote:

Llotyhy wrote:I can see both Sauber and Haas finishing ahead of them, mostly on driver quality.

Yea. I can see sauber making a huge step forward with their car; Current ferrari pu, new sponsorship...Whatever people think of Ericsson he is still an experienced driver who reportedly has been yearning for a better car and Leclerc is supposed to be very good. I will not be shocked if they are the 6th best team and challenging FI.

I will be; Force India is way too strong, and has a very good lineup of their own. Sauber should be looking to beat Haas and Toro Rosso this year, not the top team in the midfield.

I agree that FI definitely will have the better driver lineup, but imo it's not out of the realm of possibility that the Sauber car can be superior to the FI. Sauber has built some decent cars in the past, before the money problems begun. They are in much better shape financially today that they were the last couple of years.

It's possible but I think unlikely. FI are the best team out there and I don't see a reason why that would change.

Stiffer competition would be the main reason. Lets face it during the last couple of years FI only had to beat teams with much inferior engines, a newcomer in Haas, and the mess that is Williams. They are still miles off the top three teams. So no, not at all unlikely.

kleefton wrote:Stiffer competition would be the main reason. Lets face it during the last couple of years FI only had to beat teams with much inferior engines, a newcomer in Haas, and the mess that is Williams. They are still miles off the top three teams. So no, not at all unlikely.

Exactly. If Renault deliver a good engine this year then at the very least, I would expect McLaren to leapfrog FI, and possibly even the Enstone team themselves. And that might be in spite of Force India doing as good a job as they have done the past two seasons.

kleefton wrote:Stiffer competition would be the main reason. Lets face it during the last couple of years FI only had to beat teams with much inferior engines, a newcomer in Haas, and the mess that is Williams. They are still miles off the top three teams. So no, not at all unlikely.

Unlikely Sauber would beat them. Not unlikely that they will drop from 4th.

kleefton wrote:Stiffer competition would be the main reason. Lets face it during the last couple of years FI only had to beat teams with much inferior engines, a newcomer in Haas, and the mess that is Williams. They are still miles off the top three teams. So no, not at all unlikely.

We've been hearing about FI's incoming drop down the grid for a few years now. Still waiting

The upward trend will stop eventually but nobody knows when

mcdo wrote:

kleefton wrote:Stiffer competition would be the main reason. Lets face it during the last couple of years FI only had to beat teams with much inferior engines, a newcomer in Haas, and the mess that is Williams. They are still miles off the top three teams. So no, not at all unlikely.

We've been hearing about FI's incoming drop down the grid for a few years now. Still waiting

The upward trend will stop eventually but nobody knows when

It already has stopped; 4th is the highest Force India can ever hope to go, without something dramatic changing in either the structure of F1 or FI's own finances. They will never beat one of the big three teams as things stand.

The threat to Force India's current position as king of the midfield isn't that they'll suddenly get worse, it's that one of the other teams will get better. Renault and McLaren both have the resources to be well ahead of them, and certainly Renault has been on a sharp upward trajectory since they started developing their own car. There's a very good chance I would say that one or both of those teams will be ahead of FI this year. Although if it's because Macca and Renault have joined the ranks of the top teams, you could argue that Force India would still be the best midfield team, just king of a smaller midfield.

Sauber beating Force India, though? I don't see it happening, not unless the Alfa deal is firming up their budget by a substantial amount. Compared to Force India, Sauber will have a weaker engine (albeit not much), at least one weaker driver (and probably two, with Leclerc being a rookie) and a much weaker car to start from. It's just not a plausible target for 2018.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/will ... ve-992873/

Finally

It's a shame it's come to this.

Williams over the last 20 years have been great at promoting young talent into the sport based purely on merit. Villeneuve, Button, Montoya, Rosberg, Hulkenburg and Bottas all got their start at Williams in that time. You could arguably put Maldonado in that category, sure he came with a huge budget but he was also GP2 champion when he was given a seat by Williams.

Exediron wrote:

mcdo wrote:

kleefton wrote:Stiffer competition would be the main reason. Lets face it during the last couple of years FI only had to beat teams with much inferior engines, a newcomer in Haas, and the mess that is Williams. They are still miles off the top three teams. So no, not at all unlikely.

We've been hearing about FI's incoming drop down the grid for a few years now. Still waiting

The upward trend will stop eventually but nobody knows when

It already has stopped; 4th is the highest Force India can ever hope to go, without something dramatic changing in either the structure of F1 or FI's own finances. They will never beat one of the big three teams as things stand.

The threat to Force India's current position as king of the midfield isn't that they'll suddenly get worse, it's that one of the other teams will get better. Renault and McLaren both have the resources to be well ahead of them, and certainly Renault has been on a sharp upward trajectory since they started developing their own car. There's a very good chance I would say that one or both of those teams will be ahead of FI this year. Although if it's because Macca and Renault have joined the ranks of the top teams, you could argue that Force India would still be the best midfield team, just king of a smaller midfield.

Sauber beating Force India, though? I don't see it happening, not unless the Alfa deal is firming up their budget by a substantial amount. Compared to Force India, Sauber will have a weaker engine (albeit not much), at least one weaker driver (and probably two, with Leclerc being a rookie) and a much weaker car to start from. It's just not a plausible target for 2018.

What has kept Force India ahead of the midfield, apart from the Mercedes engine? It's the ingenuity of their staff at Silverstone despite having lower financial budget.

No doubt Renault & McLaren are bound to overtake Force India but still the Mercedes PU is stronger & more reliable. With 3 engines this year, Force India could still have the edge over these 2 teams.

GingerFurball wrote:It's a shame it's come to this.

Williams over the last 20 years have been great at promoting young talent into the sport based purely on merit. Villeneuve, Button, Montoya, Rosberg, Hulkenburg and Bottas all got their start at Williams in that time. You could arguably put Maldonado in that category, sure he came with a huge budget but he was also GP2 champion when he was given a seat by Williams.

Maldonado replaced the Hulk because he had money and the Hulk didn't, Bruno Senna also was signed because he had money and that was the line up for 2012. I would say that this year's line up is similar, one big cash cow plus another driver bringing a sizeable budget.

Regarding both Massa and Bottas even they brought a certain amount of money to the team.

CC78AMG wrote:http://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/42579911

With the drivers confirmed for 2018 what are people expecting from Williams this year?

Kev627 wrote:

CC78AMG wrote:http://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/42579911

With the drivers confirmed for 2018 what are people expecting from Williams this year?

8th in the WCC

mikeyg123 wrote:

Kev627 wrote:

CC78AMG wrote:http://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/42579911

With the drivers confirmed for 2018 what are people expecting from Williams this year?

8th in the WCC

Massa said that the car looks more aggressive from what he's seen in the wind tunnel before leaving Williams. Even if the car is good, I doubt Stroll & Sirotkin would do justice to the car. Force India, McLaren & Renault have a much better lineup than this pair.