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kleefton wrote: Come on. Wherlein has done 2 full seasons already and he has shown he can get good results in the worst car on the grid. I agree he probably isnt going to set the world on fire in a Williams and I am no fan of his but he’s a much better option than Sirotkin next year, who would be a rookie and doesnt have any real highlights on his resume.

mds wrote:

kleefton wrote: Come on. Wherlein has done 2 full seasons already and he has shown he can get good results in the worst car on the grid. I agree he probably isnt going to set the world on fire in a Williams and I am no fan of his but he’s a much better option than Sirotkin next year, who would be a rookie and doesnt have any real highlights on his resume.

I have never been a fan of the mantra "better a mediocre experienced driver than a rookie". For what it's worth, I don't think Wehrlein has set himself apart enough from Ericsson, a driver I don't rate at all.
It is telling that Mercedes are not walking their talk when it comes to Wehrlein: sure they say he should be in F1 next year, but then again they wouldn't give him a seat last year, and they're not making sure he has one next year. It would be very easy for them to give Williams a good deal on the engines in exchange for giving Wehrlein a seat, but they don't. That does tell me they do not value him as much as they say they do.

As for Sirotkin, his junior resume is OK and he did well in GP2 (as was indicated somewhere above here). It's hard to compare his with Wehrlein, but Wehrlein wasn't the immediate standout either. And I refuse to consider DTM results as, in my view, they're not relevant towards an F1 seat.

BMWSauber84 wrote:Agreed. People put far too much weight on the points Wehrlein has won. In the right circumstances, and If enough cars fall out of the race then points are very possible in a Sauber.

spiritone wrote:You guys are dreaming. Posters want to go on about merc only winning because of the engine, well that is the definition of williams F1. Not a very good chassis with a very good engine. F1 had a chassis that was much better than williams, paired with one of the best engines. If williams chassis was so good how come paddy says they are making major changes for next year.

mcdo wrote:

spiritone wrote:You guys are dreaming. Posters want to go on about merc only winning because of the engine, well that is the definition of williams F1. Not a very good chassis with a very good engine. F1 had a chassis that was much better than williams, paired with one of the best engines. If williams chassis was so good how come paddy says they are making major changes for next year.

I reckon Williams clearly had the 4th best package at the start of the season. But they couldn't maximise their potential and were trailing a slower Force India team in the standings. Then FI outdeveloped them as the season progressed

F1 MERCENARY wrote:^^^ This, which unfortunately means Kubica is now fully not an option as they are willing to settle for lesser ability so long as it's accompanied by a few million dollars.
As such, Sirotkin is now the front runner with Kvyat (although it seems came closer to matching Kubica) will be 2nd in line for the seat should Sirotkin's deal or sponsorship fall through, and only because Kvyat doesn't bring with him quite as much as Sirotkin does.

Sad, sad state the climate of F1 when the preferred option isn't the best driver, but one that is thereabouts but has enough money to allow teams to settle for lesser talented drivers.

mds wrote:

kleefton wrote: Come on. Wherlein has done 2 full seasons already and he has shown he can get good results in the worst car on the grid. I agree he probably isnt going to set the world on fire in a Williams and I am no fan of his but he’s a much better option than Sirotkin next year, who would be a rookie and doesnt have any real highlights on his resume.

I have never been a fan of the mantra "better a mediocre experienced driver than a rookie". For what it's worth, I don't think Wehrlein has set himself apart enough from Ericsson, a driver I don't rate at all.
It is telling that Mercedes are not walking their talk when it comes to Wehrlein: sure they say he should be in F1 next year, but then again they wouldn't give him a seat last year, and they're not making sure he has one next year. It would be very easy for them to give Williams a good deal on the engines in exchange for giving Wehrlein a seat, but they don't. That does tell me they do not value him as much as they say they do.

As for Sirotkin, his junior resume is OK and he did well in GP2 (as was indicated somewhere above here). It's hard to compare his with Wehrlein, but Wehrlein wasn't the immediate standout either. And I refuse to consider DTM results as, in my view, they're not relevant towards an F1 seat.

kleefton wrote:

mds wrote:

kleefton wrote: Come on. Wherlein has done 2 full seasons already and he has shown he can get good results in the worst car on the grid. I agree he probably isnt going to set the world on fire in a Williams and I am no fan of his but he’s a much better option than Sirotkin next year, who would be a rookie and doesnt have any real highlights on his resume.

I have never been a fan of the mantra "better a mediocre experienced driver than a rookie". For what it's worth, I don't think Wehrlein has set himself apart enough from Ericsson, a driver I don't rate at all.
It is telling that Mercedes are not walking their talk when it comes to Wehrlein: sure they say he should be in F1 next year, but then again they wouldn't give him a seat last year, and they're not making sure he has one next year. It would be very easy for them to give Williams a good deal on the engines in exchange for giving Wehrlein a seat, but they don't. That does tell me they do not value him as much as they say they do.

As for Sirotkin, his junior resume is OK and he did well in GP2 (as was indicated somewhere above here). It's hard to compare his with Wehrlein, but Wehrlein wasn't the immediate standout either. And I refuse to consider DTM results as, in my view, they're not relevant towards an F1 seat.

Sorry but I justcant ignore the experience factor like you are doing. Experience counts and sirotkin has no f1 experience. Hes a complete unknown as far as i am concerned.

BMWSauber84 wrote:

kleefton wrote:

mds wrote:

kleefton wrote: Come on. Wherlein has done 2 full seasons already and he has shown he can get good results in the worst car on the grid. I agree he probably isnt going to set the world on fire in a Williams and I am no fan of his but he’s a much better option than Sirotkin next year, who would be a rookie and doesnt have any real highlights on his resume.

I have never been a fan of the mantra "better a mediocre experienced driver than a rookie". For what it's worth, I don't think Wehrlein has set himself apart enough from Ericsson, a driver I don't rate at all.
It is telling that Mercedes are not walking their talk when it comes to Wehrlein: sure they say he should be in F1 next year, but then again they wouldn't give him a seat last year, and they're not making sure he has one next year. It would be very easy for them to give Williams a good deal on the engines in exchange for giving Wehrlein a seat, but they don't. That does tell me they do not value him as much as they say they do.

As for Sirotkin, his junior resume is OK and he did well in GP2 (as was indicated somewhere above here). It's hard to compare his with Wehrlein, but Wehrlein wasn't the immediate standout either. And I refuse to consider DTM results as, in my view, they're not relevant towards an F1 seat.

Sorry but I justcant ignore the experience factor like you are doing. Experience counts and sirotkin has no f1 experience. Hes a complete unknown as far as i am concerned.

Sure, but if you take that argument to the logical extreme, Sauber should have appointed Max Chilton instead of Leclerk.

I would love to see long term duds like Ericcson and those living off their reputation like Raikkonen make way for fresh talent.

As it happens, it seems Wehrlein will be the one to miss out. That is harsh on him but if he's good enough, he'll be back.

kleefton wrote:

mds wrote:

kleefton wrote: Come on. Wherlein has done 2 full seasons already and he has shown he can get good results in the worst car on the grid. I agree he probably isnt going to set the world on fire in a Williams and I am no fan of his but he’s a much better option than Sirotkin next year, who would be a rookie and doesnt have any real highlights on his resume.

I have never been a fan of the mantra "better a mediocre experienced driver than a rookie". For what it's worth, I don't think Wehrlein has set himself apart enough from Ericsson, a driver I don't rate at all.
It is telling that Mercedes are not walking their talk when it comes to Wehrlein: sure they say he should be in F1 next year, but then again they wouldn't give him a seat last year, and they're not making sure he has one next year. It would be very easy for them to give Williams a good deal on the engines in exchange for giving Wehrlein a seat, but they don't. That does tell me they do not value him as much as they say they do.

As for Sirotkin, his junior resume is OK and he did well in GP2 (as was indicated somewhere above here). It's hard to compare his with Wehrlein, but Wehrlein wasn't the immediate standout either. And I refuse to consider DTM results as, in my view, they're not relevant towards an F1 seat.

Sorry but I justcant ignore the experience factor like you are doing. Experience counts and sirotkin has no f1 experience. Hes a complete unknown as far as i am concerned.

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:Sirotkin? Well, "uninspiring" seems to be a bit euphemistic then ...

Wehrlein, Kvyat are clearly better than Sirotkin; heck, even Ericsson is. But, of course, Sirotkin brings tons of money and is no threat for Stroll, so, hey, Williams, here we go.

Williams for 10th wcc place in 2018?

mikeyg123 wrote:

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:Sirotkin? Well, "uninspiring" seems to be a bit euphemistic then ...

Wehrlein, Kvyat are clearly better than Sirotkin; heck, even Ericsson is. But, of course, Sirotkin brings tons of money and is no threat for Stroll, so, hey, Williams, here we go.

Williams for 10th wcc place in 2018?

I wouldn't say that. Sirotkin is decent. He will probably beat Stroll.

Paolo_Lasardi wrote: Wehrlein, Kvyat are clearly better than Sirotkin; heck, even Ericsson is.

mds wrote:

Paolo_Lasardi wrote: Wehrlein, Kvyat are clearly better than Sirotkin; heck, even Ericsson is.

Yeah sure, Sirotkin who came third in both of his GP2 seasons is worse than Ericsson who, in his four seasons in GP2, came 17th, 10th, 8th and 6th.

Makes sense.

Paolo_Lasardi wrote: Well, a lot of factors matter in GP2: competitiveness of the field, competitiveness of the team, testing miles, how the race results were achieved, the 'be mediocre on Saturday and earn on Sunday'-principle, luck, etc. pp. Result statistics are not everything.

Plus, in Sirotkin's career the modest success in GP2 is actually the outlier.

But of course, maybe he will prove me wrong. Maybe. I doubt it, though. Still and notwithstanding, Ericsson is the most likely of the ones I mentioned to be not so clearly better than Sirotkin, I admit that.

Stroll and Sirotkin - what a lineup, come on! Was there ever a worse Williams driver pairing in history? Was Nevé that bad?

spiritone wrote:Mcdo you think that williams had the 4th best chassis? Maybe you should talk to paddy and ask him why he gave up on it after the four race of the season and decided to make major changes for next year. I'm sure he would love to hear your input.

Mike your idea that putting the force india drivers in the williams car and gaining 5 tenths gave me a good laugh. Your telling me that perez (an average driver) is going to be a half second quicker than massa (a guy who almost won a F1 title). Sorry, can't buy that daydream.

spiritone wrote: Mike your idea that putting the force india drivers in the williams car and gaining 5 tenths gave me a good laugh. Your telling me that perez (an average driver) is going to be a half second quicker than massa (a guy who almost won a F1 title). Sorry, can't buy that daydream.

mikeyg123 wrote:

spiritone wrote:Mcdo you think that williams had the 4th best chassis? Maybe you should talk to paddy and ask him why he gave up on it after the four race of the season and decided to make major changes for next year. I'm sure he would love to hear your input.

Mike your idea that putting the force india drivers in the williams car and gaining 5 tenths gave me a good laugh. Your telling me that perez (an average driver) is going to be a half second quicker than massa (a guy who almost won a F1 title). Sorry, can't buy that daydream.

2. If you switch Massa and Perez around Perez only has to be 0.25 seconds faster than Massa to create a 0.5 second swing. 0.25 away from FI and 0.25 to Williams.

spiritone wrote:MDS massa gave bottas a pretty good run.

spiritone wrote:Well mike we seem to have a disagreement about massa's ability. I happen to think he did a pretty good job in a not very good car. A car that paddy thinks was not very good considering he's basically redoing the car for next year. Massa may not be once he once was but my guess would be he would match perez in the force india. If perez was as you think he is how come he's stuck at F1 with no other team fighting to sign him? Just my guess.

MDS massa gave bottas a pretty good run.

netdog wrote:Just bring Juan Pablo back to Grove and let's get on with it.

netdog wrote:It really is sad. They are delaying choosing a driver because the choices available all suck.

Why didn't they just keep Massa on for another year? He may be over the hill, but Sirotkin and Stroll? Or Kubicza and Stroll?

Heaven help Williams.

mikeyg123 wrote:

netdog wrote:It really is sad. They are delaying choosing a driver because the choices available all suck.

Why didn't they just keep Massa on for another year? He may be over the hill, but Sirotkin and Stroll? Or Kubicza and Stroll?

Heaven help Williams.

Delaying the decision is a no brainer for achieving what they want. A bidding war. It's pretty clear that as long as the driver is reasonable the seat will go to however comes up with the most cash.

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

netdog wrote:It really is sad. They are delaying choosing a driver because the choices available all suck.

Why didn't they just keep Massa on for another year? He may be over the hill, but Sirotkin and Stroll? Or Kubicza and Stroll?

Heaven help Williams.

Delaying the decision is a no brainer for achieving what they want. A bidding war. It's pretty clear that as long as the driver is reasonable the seat will go to however comes up with the most cash.

Well word on the street is that Kubica is definitely out of the running because he is 4 tenths slower than Stroll, that puts him close to a second slower than Massa.

Basically all the drivers they have tested are slower than Massa, be it Kubica, Sirotkin or di Resta, so do they cast their net out further towards a Wehrlein or even a Kvyat?

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

netdog wrote:It really is sad. They are delaying choosing a driver because the choices available all suck.

Why didn't they just keep Massa on for another year? He may be over the hill, but Sirotkin and Stroll? Or Kubicza and Stroll?

Heaven help Williams.

Delaying the decision is a no brainer for achieving what they want. A bidding war. It's pretty clear that as long as the driver is reasonable the seat will go to however comes up with the most cash.

Well word on the street is that Kubica is definitely out of the running because he is 4 tenths slower than Stroll, that puts him close to a second slower than Massa.

Basically all the drivers they have tested are slower than Massa, be it Kubica, Sirotkin or di Resta, so do they cast their net out further towards a Wehrlein or even a Kvyat?

spiritone wrote:Mcdo you think that williams had the 4th best chassis? Maybe you should talk to paddy and ask him why he gave up on it after the four race of the season and decided to make major changes for next year. I'm sure he would love to hear your input.

Pos Driver    Q1       Q2       Q3
7   Massa  1:25.099 1:24.597 1:24.443
11  Perez  1:25.064 1:25.081   n/a
14  Ocon   1:26.009 1:25.568   n/a

Pos Driver    Q1       Q2       Q3
6   Massa  1:34.205 1:33.759 1:33.507
8   Perez  1:34.657 1:33.920 1:33.706
20  Ocon   1:35.496   n/a      n/a

Pos Driver    Q1       Q2       Q3
8   Massa  1:31.373 1:30.677 1:30.074
14  Ocon   1:31.774 1:31.684   n/a
18  Perez  1:32.318   n/a      n/a

Pos Driver    Q1       Q2       Q3
6   Massa  1:35.828 1:35.049 1:35.110
9   Perez  1:36.185 1:35.513 1:35.337
10  Ocon   1:35.372 1:35.729 1:35.430

Pos Driver    Q1       Q2       Q3
8   Perez  1:21.998 1:21.239 1:21.070
9   Massa  1:22.138 1:21.222 1:21.232
10  Ocon   1:21.901 1:21.148 1:21.272

mcdo wrote:I reckon Williams clearly had the 4th best package at the start of the season. But they couldn't maximise their potential and were trailing a slower Force India team in the standings. Then FI outdeveloped them as the season progressed

spiritone wrote:It wasn't the 4th best package and the rest of the years results proved it. They couldn't develop out the flaws according to paddy.

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

netdog wrote:It really is sad. They are delaying choosing a driver because the choices available all suck.

Why didn't they just keep Massa on for another year? He may be over the hill, but Sirotkin and Stroll? Or Kubicza and Stroll?

Heaven help Williams.

Delaying the decision is a no brainer for achieving what they want. A bidding war. It's pretty clear that as long as the driver is reasonable the seat will go to however comes up with the most cash.

Well word on the street is that Kubica is definitely out of the running because he is 4 tenths slower than Stroll, that puts him close to a second slower than Massa.

Basically all the drivers they have tested are slower than Massa, be it Kubica, Sirotkin or di Resta, so do they cast their net out further towards a Wehrlein or even a Kvyat?

Depends if they can drum up any money. If they can out bid Sirotkin's $15 million then they will be in.

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

netdog wrote:It really is sad. They are delaying choosing a driver because the choices available all suck.

Why didn't they just keep Massa on for another year? He may be over the hill, but Sirotkin and Stroll? Or Kubicza and Stroll?

Heaven help Williams.

Delaying the decision is a no brainer for achieving what they want. A bidding war. It's pretty clear that as long as the driver is reasonable the seat will go to however comes up with the most cash.

Well word on the street is that Kubica is definitely out of the running because he is 4 tenths slower than Stroll, that puts him close to a second slower than Massa.

Basically all the drivers they have tested are slower than Massa, be it Kubica, Sirotkin or di Resta, so do they cast their net out further towards a Wehrlein or even a Kvyat?

do you know which street this is?

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

netdog wrote:It really is sad. They are delaying choosing a driver because the choices available all suck.

Why didn't they just keep Massa on for another year? He may be over the hill, but Sirotkin and Stroll? Or Kubicza and Stroll?

Heaven help Williams.

Delaying the decision is a no brainer for achieving what they want. A bidding war. It's pretty clear that as long as the driver is reasonable the seat will go to however comes up with the most cash.

Well word on the street is that Kubica is definitely out of the running because he is 4 tenths slower than Stroll, that puts him close to a second slower than Massa.

Basically all the drivers they have tested are slower than Massa, be it Kubica, Sirotkin or di Resta, so do they cast their net out further towards a Wehrlein or even a Kvyat?

Depends if they can drum up any money. If they can out bid Sirotkin's $15 million then they will be in.

They can't drum up that kind of money but the thing is that if it's just about the money why hasn't Sirotkin already be signed, I think that they have some concerns about the drivers being to weak?

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

netdog wrote:It really is sad. They are delaying choosing a driver because the choices available all suck.

Why didn't they just keep Massa on for another year? He may be over the hill, but Sirotkin and Stroll? Or Kubicza and Stroll?

Heaven help Williams.

Delaying the decision is a no brainer for achieving what they want. A bidding war. It's pretty clear that as long as the driver is reasonable the seat will go to however comes up with the most cash.

Well word on the street is that Kubica is definitely out of the running because he is 4 tenths slower than Stroll, that puts him close to a second slower than Massa.

Basically all the drivers they have tested are slower than Massa, be it Kubica, Sirotkin or di Resta, so do they cast their net out further towards a Wehrlein or even a Kvyat?

Depends if they can drum up any money. If they can out bid Sirotkin's $15 million then they will be in.

They can't drum up that kind of money but the thing is that if it's just about the money why hasn't Sirotkin already be signed, I think that they have some concerns about the drivers being to weak?