Kvyat, Sainz and Palmer to swap seats from Austin onwards

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Re: Kvyat, Sainz and Palmer to swap seats from Austin onward

Post by Jenson's Understeer »

j man wrote:
mcdo wrote:I'm shocked this happened before the end of the season. It makes sense for Renault. I guess it means Gasly is definitely withdrawing from the Super Formula title chase
Sky F1 were reporting during the race today that Honda want Gasly to complete the Super Formula season. Given that Toro Rosso are switching to Honda next year I'm not so sure their request would be easily ignored.

No idea who Toro Rosso would look to bring in for the second seat in that case. Is Markus Winkelhock available?
It's all a little weird. Almost as if Renault and Red Bull did the deal and Red Bull didn't give Honda a heads-up that actually, Gasly won't be completing the Super Formula season. Then when Honda found out they took issue with that, but by that time it was all public knowledge?
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Re: Kvyat, Sainz and Palmer to swap seats from Austin onward

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

mas wrote:I would like to see Kyvat and Buemi for one race ;).
Id rather see Webber :D

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Re: Kvyat, Sainz and Palmer to swap seats from Austin onward

Post by mas »

Honda boss now says he doesn't mind

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hond ... la-963248/

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Re: Kvyat, Sainz and Palmer to swap seats from Austin onward

Post by Randine »

Herb Tarlik wrote:
sandman1347 wrote: 7 years without a podium DOES mean something.
This. Exactly right. How anyone can be fan of Hulkenberg is absolutely mystifying to me.
Hulk is a lead driver in a works team. He is very well regarded.

Perez’s advantage from the Pirelli tyres has now gone and can barely hold off a rookie.
I bet if Hulk & Perez were paired this year that Hulk would be beating him convincingly.
After his win at Le Mans he said that he could push every lap on the tyres, but couldn’t do that in F1.
Well in 2017 he can and he is doing a pretty good job in an average car.

Palmer was only just worse than Kmag and Kmag and Grosjean are on a similar level.
Kimi smashed Grosjean, so imho Grosjean, Kmag, Bottas, Massa etc are not at or near the level of someone like Hulk.
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Re: Kvyat, Sainz and Palmer to swap seats from Austin onward

Post by Banana Man »

Herb wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Banana Man wrote:Palmer is in no way as bad as some people make out. No, he's obviously not as quick as Hulkenberg but that doesn't make him bad. At Spa he looked good to out-qualify Hulk before his car let him down, again. Today he was only 0.14s behind and could have beaten him if he hadn't taken too much kerb into the chicane.

I genuinely believe Hulk is one of the best drivers never to have a top seat, your worst nightmare as a teammate. Stick Kimi in that car instead and we'd probably be talking about how evenly matched Palmer is with a world Champion.
lol are you kidding me ? Hulk holds the record for most races without a podium. Hulk has not been very lucky but is a decent driver at best. I will not put him even in top8. With Perez they were pretty close and so is Ocon. Sainz will give good competition to him though. Palmer getting destroyed by a mid range driver means he does not belong to F1 sadly
Wouldn't mind hearing what 8 drivers you are putting in front of Hulkenburg, and the record of most races without a podium just really highlights how unlucky he has been rather than any terminal lack of talent. You look at some of the cars he has been in.... before the resurgence of FI it wasn't exactly a list of fantastic ones.
Not me that said it, but I feel it's fair.

Hamilton
Vettel
Alonso
Ricciardo
Verstappen
Perez
Bottas
Grosjean

They're all ahead of Hulk in my eyes, one or two may be debatable admittedly. But that is without Vandoorne, who I feel might be ahead, but not sure I've seen enough of him in F1 to put him ahead yet.
First five are a given but I think Hulk is best of the rest after that, on par at least with Bottas and Perez, I would personally say slightly better. Perez may have the podiums but overall I'd say the two were comparable in terms of performance.

Grosjean I would put below all of the above (Stoff included), just above KMag and Palmer. He's stuck it in the wall in 2 of the last 4 weekends, even if you discount Malaysia and I regard him as the one at fault in Russia. He really hasn't done much special in his career TBH and wont be getting a Ferrari seat with the likes of LeClerc sniffing around.
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Re: Kvyat, Sainz and Palmer to swap seats from Austin onward

Post by pokerman »

Randine wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
sandman1347 wrote: 7 years without a podium DOES mean something.
This. Exactly right. How anyone can be fan of Hulkenberg is absolutely mystifying to me.
Hulk is a lead driver in a works team. He is very well regarded.

Perez’s advantage from the Pirelli tyres has now gone and can barely hold off a rookie.
I bet if Hulk & Perez were paired this year that Hulk would be beating him convincingly.
After his win at Le Mans he said that he could push every lap on the tyres, but couldn’t do that in F1.
Well in 2017 he can and he is doing a pretty good job in an average car.

Palmer was only just worse than Kmag and Kmag and Grosjean are on a similar level.
Kimi smashed Grosjean, so imho Grosjean, Kmag, Bottas, Massa etc are not at or near the level of someone like Hulk.
Kimi and Massa were teammates.
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Re: Kvyat, Sainz and Palmer to swap seats from Austin onward

Post by moby »

A remark on autosport today from Tost ref the driver swap.

"We gave him to Renault as compensation for an existing contract between Toro Rosso and Renault, to get out of this contract, and this was negotiated in this way, and therefore it was to be expected."

I dont think I have seen that confirmed before?

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Re: Kvyat, Sainz and Palmer to swap seats from Austin onward

Post by mikeyg123 »

Randine wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
sandman1347 wrote: 7 years without a podium DOES mean something.
This. Exactly right. How anyone can be fan of Hulkenberg is absolutely mystifying to me.
Hulk is a lead driver in a works team. He is very well regarded.

Perez’s advantage from the Pirelli tyres has now gone and can barely hold off a rookie.
I bet if Hulk & Perez were paired this year that Hulk would be beating him convincingly.
After his win at Le Mans he said that he could push every lap on the tyres, but couldn’t do that in F1.
Well in 2017 he can and he is doing a pretty good job in an average car.

Palmer was only just worse than Kmag and Kmag and Grosjean are on a similar level.
Kimi smashed Grosjean, so imho Grosjean, Kmag, Bottas, Massa etc are not at or near the level of someone like Hulk.
The tyres were harder in 2016 than 2015 or 2014 and that's when Perez's advantage grew.

I don't understand how anybody could watch the last few years and rate Hulk better than Perez. You have to ignore everything you have seen.

This season Perez has been driving very, very well (Incidents with Ocon aside). You say barely hold off a rookie but he does nearly always come out on top all things being equal. Seeing as we don't know how good Ocon is it's a bit unfair to use that to discredit him.

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Re: Kvyat, Sainz and Palmer to swap seats from Austin onward

Post by mikeyg123 »

Thinking about it, rating Hulk ahead of Perez is a bit like rating Rosberg above Hamilton.

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Re: Kvyat, Sainz and Palmer to swap seats from Austin onward

Post by LBET »

Flash2k11 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Banana Man wrote:Palmer is in no way as bad as some people make out. No, he's obviously not as quick as Hulkenberg but that doesn't make him bad. At Spa he looked good to out-qualify Hulk before his car let him down, again. Today he was only 0.14s behind and could have beaten him if he hadn't taken too much kerb into the chicane.

I genuinely believe Hulk is one of the best drivers never to have a top seat, your worst nightmare as a teammate. Stick Kimi in that car instead and we'd probably be talking about how evenly matched Palmer is with a world Champion.
lol are you kidding me ? Hulk holds the record for most races without a podium. Hulk has not been very lucky but is a decent driver at best. I will not put him even in top8. With Perez they were pretty close and so is Ocon. Sainz will give good competition to him though. Palmer getting destroyed by a mid range driver means he does not belong to F1 sadly
Wouldn't mind hearing what 8 drivers you are putting in front of Hulkenburg, and the record of most races without a podium just really highlights how unlucky he has been rather than any terminal lack of talent. You look at some of the cars he has been in.... before the resurgence of FI it wasn't exactly a list of fantastic ones.
Here's 6. The last 2 are tough as Bottas is only 1/2 on this list.

Vettel
Max
Honey Badger
Ocon
Sainz
Alonso

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Re: Kvyat, Sainz and Palmer to swap seats from Austin onward

Post by LBET »

LBET wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Banana Man wrote:Palmer is in no way as bad as some people make out. No, he's obviously not as quick as Hulkenberg but that doesn't make him bad. At Spa he looked good to out-qualify Hulk before his car let him down, again. Today he was only 0.14s behind and could have beaten him if he hadn't taken too much kerb into the chicane.

I genuinely believe Hulk is one of the best drivers never to have a top seat, your worst nightmare as a teammate. Stick Kimi in that car instead and we'd probably be talking about how evenly matched Palmer is with a world Champion.
lol are you kidding me ? Hulk holds the record for most races without a podium. Hulk has not been very lucky but is a decent driver at best. I will not put him even in top8. With Perez they were pretty close and so is Ocon. Sainz will give good competition to him though. Palmer getting destroyed by a mid range driver means he does not belong to F1 sadly
Wouldn't mind hearing what 8 drivers you are putting in front of Hulkenburg, and the record of most races without a podium just really highlights how unlucky he has been rather than any terminal lack of talent. You look at some of the cars he has been in.... before the resurgence of FI it wasn't exactly a list of fantastic ones.
Here's 6. The last 2 are tough as Bottas is only 1/2 on this list.

Vettel
Max
Honey Badger
Ocon
Sainz
Alonso
Oh, and as an Englishman, I wanted JP to do well but it clearly wasn't in the cards. He simply didn't have the pace and I was gobsmacked when the signed him again for 2017. (Businessman trumps Englishman).

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Re: Kvyat, Sainz and Palmer to swap seats from Austin onward

Post by Flash2k11 »

I have a hard time rating Sainz ahead of Hulkenberg at this exact moment, although that particular comparison is about to get a whole lot easier lol
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Re: Kvyat, Sainz and Palmer to swap seats from Austin onward

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:Thinking about it, rating Hulk ahead of Perez is a bit like rating Rosberg above Hamilton.
I disagree the Hulk was closer in performance to Perez.
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Re: Kvyat, Sainz and Palmer to swap seats from Austin onward

Post by pokerman »

LBET wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Banana Man wrote:Palmer is in no way as bad as some people make out. No, he's obviously not as quick as Hulkenberg but that doesn't make him bad. At Spa he looked good to out-qualify Hulk before his car let him down, again. Today he was only 0.14s behind and could have beaten him if he hadn't taken too much kerb into the chicane.

I genuinely believe Hulk is one of the best drivers never to have a top seat, your worst nightmare as a teammate. Stick Kimi in that car instead and we'd probably be talking about how evenly matched Palmer is with a world Champion.
lol are you kidding me ? Hulk holds the record for most races without a podium. Hulk has not been very lucky but is a decent driver at best. I will not put him even in top8. With Perez they were pretty close and so is Ocon. Sainz will give good competition to him though. Palmer getting destroyed by a mid range driver means he does not belong to F1 sadly
Wouldn't mind hearing what 8 drivers you are putting in front of Hulkenburg, and the record of most races without a podium just really highlights how unlucky he has been rather than any terminal lack of talent. You look at some of the cars he has been in.... before the resurgence of FI it wasn't exactly a list of fantastic ones.
Here's 6. The last 2 are tough as Bottas is only 1/2 on this list.

Vettel
Max
Honey Badger
Ocon
Sainz
Alonso
No Hamilton?

The Hulk performed better against Perez than Ocon is doing presently.
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Re: Kvyat, Sainz and Palmer to swap seats from Austin onward

Post by pokerman »

Flash2k11 wrote:I have a hard time rating Sainz ahead of Hulkenberg at this exact moment, although that particular comparison is about to get a whole lot easier lol
Who was impressed by Sainz in Japan, at a track were you get punished for mistakes he wrecked his car twice.
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Re: Kvyat, Sainz and Palmer to swap seats from Austin onward

Post by RaggedMan »

Sainz has been rather clumsy on a couple of occasions this year.
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Re: Kvyat, Sainz and Palmer to swap seats from Austin onward

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Thinking about it, rating Hulk ahead of Perez is a bit like rating Rosberg above Hamilton.
I disagree the Hulk was closer in performance to Perez.
Maybe a bit, but it's splitting hairs really. The comparison is similar.

I'm not trying to do Hulk down. I'd certainly put him in the top 10 currently.

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Re: Kvyat, Sainz and Palmer to swap seats from Austin onward

Post by Pullrod »

pokerman wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:I have a hard time rating Sainz ahead of Hulkenberg at this exact moment, although that particular comparison is about to get a whole lot easier lol
Who was impressed by Sainz in Japan, at a track were you get punished for mistakes he wrecked his car twice.
Just like Verstappen wrecked his car in Baku at end of Practice session or Ricciardo many times in qualifying whilst trying to find tenths.
Sainz strength is his Q3 speed, where championships(or race wins) are easily won and he is also very good in the wet and among the best starters in F1.(People have very short memory and forget how many places Verstappen lost at the starts last year for example or Ricciardo this year)

If Hulk beat Sainz Jr. like he did against Palmer, I will put Nico in my TOP 2 drivers. ;)

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Re: Kvyat, Sainz and Palmer to swap seats from Austin onward

Post by mikeyg123 »

Pullrod wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:I have a hard time rating Sainz ahead of Hulkenberg at this exact moment, although that particular comparison is about to get a whole lot easier lol
Who was impressed by Sainz in Japan, at a track were you get punished for mistakes he wrecked his car twice.
Just like Verstappen wrecked his car in Baku at end of Practice session or Ricciardo many times in qualifying whilst trying to find tenths.
Sainz strength is his Q3 speed, where championships(or race wins) are easily won and he is also very good in the wet and among the best starters in F1.(People have very short memory and forget how many places Verstappen lost at the starts last year for example or Ricciardo this year)

If Hulk beat Sainz Jr. like he did against Palmer, I will put Nico in my TOP 2 drivers. ;)
With Perez as number one then.

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Re: Kvyat, Sainz and Palmer to swap seats from Austin onward

Post by Pullrod »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:I have a hard time rating Sainz ahead of Hulkenberg at this exact moment, although that particular comparison is about to get a whole lot easier lol
Who was impressed by Sainz in Japan, at a track were you get punished for mistakes he wrecked his car twice.
Just like Verstappen wrecked his car in Baku at end of Practice session or Ricciardo many times in qualifying whilst trying to find tenths.
Sainz strength is his Q3 speed, where championships(or race wins) are easily won and he is also very good in the wet and among the best starters in F1.(People have very short memory and forget how many places Verstappen lost at the starts last year for example or Ricciardo this year)

If Hulk beat Sainz Jr. like he did against Palmer, I will put Nico in my TOP 2 drivers. ;)
With Perez as number one then.
It was a joke if you didnt get it..
There is zero chance of that happening ;)

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Re: Kvyat, Sainz and Palmer to swap seats from Austin onward

Post by moby »

Pullrod wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:I have a hard time rating Sainz ahead of Hulkenberg at this exact moment, although that particular comparison is about to get a whole lot easier lol
Who was impressed by Sainz in Japan, at a track were you get punished for mistakes he wrecked his car twice.
Just like Verstappen wrecked his car in Baku at end of Practice session or Ricciardo many times in qualifying whilst trying to find tenths.
Sainz strength is his Q3 speed, where championships(or race wins) are easily won and he is also very good in the wet and among the best starters in F1.(People have very short memory and forget how many places Verstappen lost at the starts last year for example or Ricciardo this year)

If Hulk beat Sainz Jr. like he did against Palmer, I will put Nico in my TOP 2 drivers. ;)
With Perez as number one then.
It was a joke if you didnt get it..
There is zero chance of that happening ;)
Hmmm, Famous last words. Right up there with 'He could not hit a barn door from Uggh'

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Re: Kvyat, Sainz and Palmer to swap seats from Austin onward

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Thinking about it, rating Hulk ahead of Perez is a bit like rating Rosberg above Hamilton.
I disagree the Hulk was closer in performance to Perez.
Maybe a bit, but it's splitting hairs really. The comparison is similar.

I'm not trying to do Hulk down. I'd certainly put him in the top 10 currently.
I'm just comparing with actual performances, the Hulk outqualified Perez more often than not whilst with Perez he has dominated against Ocon, in the races the Hulk finished in front of Perez as often as not whilst again Perez has dominated against Ocon.

One race springs to mind when Ocon started 3rd in Monza whilst Perez started 9th, Ocon went into second at the start but at the end of the race Perez finished right behind Ocon and Perez's car was also slightly damaged, he's nearly always faster.
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Re: Kvyat, Sainz and Palmer to swap seats from Austin onward

Post by pokerman »

Pullrod wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:I have a hard time rating Sainz ahead of Hulkenberg at this exact moment, although that particular comparison is about to get a whole lot easier lol
Who was impressed by Sainz in Japan, at a track were you get punished for mistakes he wrecked his car twice.
Just like Verstappen wrecked his car in Baku at end of Practice session or Ricciardo many times in qualifying whilst trying to find tenths.
Sainz strength is his Q3 speed, where championships(or race wins) are easily won and he is also very good in the wet and among the best starters in F1.(People have very short memory and forget how many places Verstappen lost at the starts last year for example or Ricciardo this year)

If Hulk beat Sainz Jr. like he did against Palmer, I will put Nico in my TOP 2 drivers. ;)
What kind of speed are you trying to find in FP1, also Sainz is not that good in the wet.

Sainz gets his ranking for being reasonable close to Verstappen when he was a rookie and much less experienced than Sainz, Verstappen is much improved now, and because he beat Kvyat.
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Re: Kvyat, Sainz and Palmer to swap seats from Austin onward

Post by Pullrod »

pokerman wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:I have a hard time rating Sainz ahead of Hulkenberg at this exact moment, although that particular comparison is about to get a whole lot easier lol
Who was impressed by Sainz in Japan, at a track were you get punished for mistakes he wrecked his car twice.
Just like Verstappen wrecked his car in Baku at end of Practice session or Ricciardo many times in qualifying whilst trying to find tenths.
Sainz strength is his Q3 speed, where championships(or race wins) are easily won and he is also very good in the wet and among the best starters in F1.(People have very short memory and forget how many places Verstappen lost at the starts last year for example or Ricciardo this year)

If Hulk beat Sainz Jr. like he did against Palmer, I will put Nico in my TOP 2 drivers. ;)
What kind of speed are you trying to find in FP1, also Sainz is not that good in the wet.

Sainz gets his ranking for being reasonable close to Verstappen when he was a rookie and much less experienced than Sainz, Verstappen is much improved now, and because he beat Kvyat.
So beating Kvyat now means nothing? And who tells you Sainz has not improved his skills himself? You are talking like Sainz was some kind of F1 veteran when they were teammates.
In the case you have not noticed(yet) Sainz is very good in the wet.

Any driver with big ambitions would have been frustrated after 3 years at ToroRosso.

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Re: Kvyat, Sainz and Palmer to swap seats from Austin onward

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Thinking about it, rating Hulk ahead of Perez is a bit like rating Rosberg above Hamilton.
I disagree the Hulk was closer in performance to Perez.
Maybe a bit, but it's splitting hairs really. The comparison is similar.

I'm not trying to do Hulk down. I'd certainly put him in the top 10 currently.
I'm just comparing with actual performances, the Hulk outqualified Perez more often than not whilst with Perez he has dominated against Ocon, in the races the Hulk finished in front of Perez as often as not whilst again Perez has dominated against Ocon.

One race springs to mind when Ocon started 3rd in Monza whilst Perez started 9th, Ocon went into second at the start but at the end of the race Perez finished right behind Ocon and Perez's car was also slightly damaged, he's nearly always faster.
I agree the Perez/Ocon gap is bigger. Perhaps Perez V Hulk is like Hamilton V Rosberg whilst Perez V Ocon is like Hamilton V Bottas.

Rightly or wrongly if they were driving a Haas instead of an FI nobody would be talking about Ocon as a future star.

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Re: Kvyat, Sainz and Palmer to swap seats from Austin onward

Post by Randine »

Alonso said on this years cars and rubber that he no longer needs to drive like a small child compared to previous years.
So guys like Perez that managed tyres very well have had their advantage taken away. So to mikeyg, I do think you can discount a little bit of history between Perez vs Hulk.

Guys that are great over 1 lap are showing sustained race pace in 2017. Eg Ham over Bottas and Vettel over Kimi. Even Max over Dan in some races. (Harder to compare in some races Eg japan Red Bull split the strategy with Dan going low downforce vs Max on a higher downforce set up for the race)

I believe Ham would have had a gap to Rosberg this year too, but probably doing better than Bottas.

I know it is hard to compare drivers between years/teams/regulations.
However for whatever reason I really rate Hulk up there in the top 6 on the grid and maybe even higher than that.
To outqualify Palmer 15-0 is quite amazing even if Palmer wasn’t good. To not be held up, have yellow flags, crash, have car troubles etc etc not trip up Hulk is a pretty amazing stat.
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Re: Kvyat, Sainz and Palmer to swap seats from Austin onward

Post by mikeyg123 »

Randine wrote:Alonso said on this years cars and rubber that he no longer needs to drive like a small child compared to previous years.
So guys like Perez that managed tyres very well have had their advantage taken away. So to mikeyg, I do think you can discount a little bit of history between Perez vs Hulk.

Guys that are great over 1 lap are showing sustained race pace in 2017. Eg Ham over Bottas and Vettel over Kimi. Even Max over Dan in some races. (Harder to compare in some races Eg japan Red Bull split the strategy with Dan going low downforce vs Max on a higher downforce set up for the race)

I believe Ham would have had a gap to Rosberg this year too, but probably doing better than Bottas.

I know it is hard to compare drivers between years/teams/regulations.
However for whatever reason I really rate Hulk up there in the top 6 on the grid and maybe even higher than that.
To outqualify Palmer 15-0 is quite amazing even if Palmer wasn’t good. To not be held up, have yellow flags, crash, have car troubles etc etc not trip up Hulk is a pretty amazing stat.
But this makes no sense in following your theory. Rosberg was closer to Hamilton on one lap pace than anything else.

As i said before the tyres were harder in 2016 than previously and the gap between Perez and Hulk grew.

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Re: Kvyat, Sainz and Palmer to swap seats from Austin onward

Post by mcdo »

Flash2k11 wrote:I have a hard time rating Sainz ahead of Hulkenberg at this exact moment, although that particular comparison is about to get a whole lot easier lol
I hope people don't expect too much of Sainz in these upcoming races. Swapping to a wayward Renault is not going to be easy. Better to see how he gets on starting next season

(Although if he nails Hulk from COTA on that would be something spectacular)
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Re: Kvyat, Sainz and Palmer to swap seats from Austin onward

Post by mcdo »

mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Thinking about it, rating Hulk ahead of Perez is a bit like rating Rosberg above Hamilton.
I disagree the Hulk was closer in performance to Perez.
Maybe a bit, but it's splitting hairs really. The comparison is similar.

I'm not trying to do Hulk down. I'd certainly put him in the top 10 currently.
I'm just comparing with actual performances, the Hulk outqualified Perez more often than not whilst with Perez he has dominated against Ocon, in the races the Hulk finished in front of Perez as often as not whilst again Perez has dominated against Ocon.

One race springs to mind when Ocon started 3rd in Monza whilst Perez started 9th, Ocon went into second at the start but at the end of the race Perez finished right behind Ocon and Perez's car was also slightly damaged, he's nearly always faster.
I agree the Perez/Ocon gap is bigger. Perhaps Perez V Hulk is like Hamilton V Rosberg whilst Perez V Ocon is like Hamilton V Bottas.

Rightly or wrongly if they were driving a Haas instead of an FI nobody would be talking about Ocon as a future star.
I find your posts contradictory. One minute Perez is one of great talents on the grid, the next minute it's no big deal that Ocon is matching him. Well which is it?
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Re: Kvyat, Sainz and Palmer to swap seats from Austin onward

Post by mikeyg123 »

Ocon isn't matching Perez.

Perez is 11/5 up in quali and 10/4 up on race finishes ahead. Performance wise he is close but almost always behind.

I believe Ocon is doing well for a rookie but not so well that peopole would be calling him a stand put driver if he wasn't in a consistently point's scoring car.

And I've never argued that Perez is a huge talent. I do think he is better than Hulkenberg.

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Re: Kvyat, Sainz and Palmer to swap seats from Austin onward

Post by Flash2k11 »

mcdo wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:I have a hard time rating Sainz ahead of Hulkenberg at this exact moment, although that particular comparison is about to get a whole lot easier lol
I hope people don't expect too much of Sainz in these upcoming races. Swapping to a wayward Renault is not going to be easy. Better to see how he gets on starting next season

(Although if he nails Hulk from COTA on that would be something spectacular)
Oh, I was hinting at next season. We've seen how difficult it is to jump into a foreign car mid season before. If he does get in that Renault and put the manners on Hulkenberg straight away, it'd be immense and Sainz would be getting a pretty big jump in anyone's ratings.
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Re: Kvyat, Sainz and Palmer to swap seats from Austin onward

Post by UnlikeUday »

pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Thinking about it, rating Hulk ahead of Perez is a bit like rating Rosberg above Hamilton.
I disagree the Hulk was closer in performance to Perez.
Maybe a bit, but it's splitting hairs really. The comparison is similar.

I'm not trying to do Hulk down. I'd certainly put him in the top 10 currently.
I'm just comparing with actual performances, the Hulk outqualified Perez more often than not whilst with Perez he has dominated against Ocon, in the races the Hulk finished in front of Perez as often as not whilst again Perez has dominated against Ocon.

One race springs to mind when Ocon started 3rd in Monza whilst Perez started 9th, Ocon went into second at the start but at the end of the race Perez finished right behind Ocon and Perez's car was also slightly damaged, he's nearly always faster.
Hulk always had better 1 lap pace than Perez, which is why many a times he qualified ahead of Perez. 1 good race to compare Perez against hulk is Bahrain 2014 where Perez snatched the podium from Hulk in only his 3rd race for FI.

As per statistics, Ocon is behind Perez but pacewise he's not that far behind. I'm expecting Ocon to be even better in 2018. Ocon is much closer to Hulk. They both are consistent & get points onboard. Perez is a more feisty racer & keeps searching for gaps to overtake. I do believe Perez is better than Bottas as well.
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Re: Kvyat, Sainz and Palmer to swap seats from Austin onward

Post by pokerman »

Pullrod wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:I have a hard time rating Sainz ahead of Hulkenberg at this exact moment, although that particular comparison is about to get a whole lot easier lol
Who was impressed by Sainz in Japan, at a track were you get punished for mistakes he wrecked his car twice.
Just like Verstappen wrecked his car in Baku at end of Practice session or Ricciardo many times in qualifying whilst trying to find tenths.
Sainz strength is his Q3 speed, where championships(or race wins) are easily won and he is also very good in the wet and among the best starters in F1.(People have very short memory and forget how many places Verstappen lost at the starts last year for example or Ricciardo this year)

If Hulk beat Sainz Jr. like he did against Palmer, I will put Nico in my TOP 2 drivers. ;)
What kind of speed are you trying to find in FP1, also Sainz is not that good in the wet.

Sainz gets his ranking for being reasonable close to Verstappen when he was a rookie and much less experienced than Sainz, Verstappen is much improved now, and because he beat Kvyat.
So beating Kvyat now means nothing? And who tells you Sainz has not improved his skills himself? You are talking like Sainz was some kind of F1 veteran when they were teammates.
In the case you have not noticed(yet) Sainz is very good in the wet.

Any driver with big ambitions would have been frustrated after 3 years at ToroRosso.
Maybe you missed the fact that Kvyat got sacked from the Red Bull team and questions get asked about why he's still in F1, beating Kvyat means Sainz is a decent driver, the Hulk will give him a proper challenge.
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Re: Kvyat, Sainz and Palmer to swap seats from Austin onward

Post by mikeyg123 »

A big plus for Sainz is that he is a lot further ahead of Kvyat than Ricciardo was.

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Re: Kvyat, Sainz and Palmer to swap seats from Austin onward

Post by mcdo »

mikeyg123 wrote:Ocon isn't matching Perez.

Perez is 11/5 up in quali and 10/4 up on race finishes ahead. Performance wise he is close but almost always behind.

I believe Ocon is doing well for a rookie but not so well that peopole would be calling him a stand put driver if he wasn't in a consistently point's scoring car.

And I've never argued that Perez is a huge talent. I do think he is better than Hulkenberg.
He is now. Jeez at the start of the year the guy was still a rookie in a new team where Perez was entering his 4th season. Giving a driver a period of acclimatization is pretty standard.

If we look at Austria onwards points scored is the only area Perez is ahead:
Qualy: 4-4
Races finished ahead: 4-4
Points scored: 38-30

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Re: Kvyat, Sainz and Palmer to swap seats from Austin onward

Post by pokerman »

mcdo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Ocon isn't matching Perez.

Perez is 11/5 up in quali and 10/4 up on race finishes ahead. Performance wise he is close but almost always behind.

I believe Ocon is doing well for a rookie but not so well that peopole would be calling him a stand put driver if he wasn't in a consistently point's scoring car.

And I've never argued that Perez is a huge talent. I do think he is better than Hulkenberg.
He is now. Jeez at the start of the year the guy was still a rookie in a new team where Perez was entering his 4th season. Giving a driver a period of acclimatization is pretty standard.

If we look at Austria onwards points scored is the only area Perez is ahead:
Qualy: 4-4
Races finished ahead: 4-4
Points scored: 38-30

F*ck all in it
I remember 2 races were Ocon finished in front of Perez but Perez was quicker, the last race was can I try and pass my teammate, the answer was no, and of course there was Spa but the collision was Perez's fault.
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Re: Kvyat, Sainz and Palmer to swap seats from Austin onward

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

RaggedMan wrote:Sainz has been rather clumsy on a couple of occasions this year.
I think it's been more than a couple now. He had those 2 incidents in Bahrain and Canada, both of which he was responsible for 2 cars retiring as well as collecting 2 penalty points and a 3 place grid penalty for the next race on both occations. He then now has also had a crash in practice, and another in the race. He's now been resonsible for more retirements than any driver on the grid this year and in my opinion, that is pretty poor if some people consider him to be pretty close to the top drivers. I think Ricciardo and Verstappen are well ahead of him overall. Sainz has good pace, outstanding at times, but overall, very up and down. I just don't think he's good enough yet for a top team. But things may change in time.

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Re: Kvyat, Sainz and Palmer to swap seats from Austin onward

Post by Randine »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Randine wrote:Alonso said on this years cars and rubber that he no longer needs to drive like a small child compared to previous years.
So guys like Perez that managed tyres very well have had their advantage taken away. So to mikeyg, I do think you can discount a little bit of history between Perez vs Hulk.

Guys that are great over 1 lap are showing sustained race pace in 2017. Eg Ham over Bottas and Vettel over Kimi. Even Max over Dan in some races. (Harder to compare in some races Eg japan Red Bull split the strategy with Dan going low downforce vs Max on a higher downforce set up for the race)

I believe Ham would have had a gap to Rosberg this year too, but probably doing better than Bottas.

I know it is hard to compare drivers between years/teams/regulations.
However for whatever reason I really rate Hulk up there in the top 6 on the grid and maybe even higher than that.
To outqualify Palmer 15-0 is quite amazing even if Palmer wasn’t good. To not be held up, have yellow flags, crash, have car troubles etc etc not trip up Hulk is a pretty amazing stat.
But this makes no sense in following your theory. Rosberg was closer to Hamilton on one lap pace than anything else.

As i said before the tyres were harder in 2016 than previously and the gap between Perez and Hulk grew.
Rosberg got close to Ham in 2016 qualifying because the suspension tricks Merc used cancelled out Ham’s natural advantage.
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Re: Kvyat, Sainz and Palmer to swap seats from Austin onward

Post by Randine »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:Sainz has been rather clumsy on a couple of occasions this year.
I think it's been more than a couple now. He had those 2 incidents in Bahrain and Canada, both of which he was responsible for 2 cars retiring as well as collecting 2 penalty points and a 3 place grid penalty for the next race on both occations. He then now has also had a crash in practice, and another in the race. He's now been resonsible for more retirements than any driver on the grid this year and in my opinion, that is pretty poor if some people consider him to be pretty close to the top drivers. I think Ricciardo and Verstappen are well ahead of him overall. Sainz has good pace, outstanding at times, but overall, very up and down. I just don't think he's good enough yet for a top team. But things may change in time.
Well he is technically in a top team now.
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Re: Kvyat, Sainz and Palmer to swap seats from Austin onward

Post by mikeyg123 »

mcdo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Ocon isn't matching Perez.

Perez is 11/5 up in quali and 10/4 up on race finishes ahead. Performance wise he is close but almost always behind.

I believe Ocon is doing well for a rookie but not so well that peopole would be calling him a stand put driver if he wasn't in a consistently point's scoring car.

And I've never argued that Perez is a huge talent. I do think he is better than Hulkenberg.
He is now. Jeez at the start of the year the guy was still a rookie in a new team where Perez was entering his 4th season. Giving a driver a period of acclimatization is pretty standard.

If we look at Austria onwards points scored is the only area Perez is ahead:
Qualy: 4-4
Races finished ahead: 4-4
Points scored: 38-30

F*ck all in it
It will be interesting to see how things progress next year. :)

Don't forget Ocon wasn't a total rookie. He had half a season already. Doesn't sound like much but it does hold a benefit.

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