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mds wrote:

pokerman wrote: When Hamilton competed in F3 it was 2 rungs down from F1, when Verstappen competed in F3 it was 3 rungs down from F1, the driver that won the title, Ocon then went into GP3.

Hamilton competed in the F3 Euroseries which later got disbanded and replaced by GP3, F3 then later got rehashed but at a lower level to what it was originally.

And Verstappen was a single seater rookie outright, and he still went up against some promising drivers.

But this dicussion doesn't even have to revolve around their first seasons in F3. The statement was simple, "aged 20 Hamilton was better than Verstappen". And then the plain simple facts are Hamilton had just come fifth in F3 while Verstappen has just imperiously won an F1 race. That statement was nonsense.

It is better if we talk in terms of experience.
So if I am somehow lucky to start in F1 at 15, I can make mistakes for 7 years straight before being compared to Hamilton?

A quick way to compare Verstappen in this discussion is to ask: would Max have been leading the 2007 WDC if he was in Hamilton's car?

The only trait d'union we have between Verstappen and Vettel is Ricciardo, a driver I have always felt is way overrated. Sainz Jr would put up a much better fight(I can hear you laughing, but I am not joking). What is the score now between the two? 11-4? crazy stuff.

Pullrod wrote: He took a massive shortcut(same for Vettel), no wonder the FIA had to quickly reform the superlicense prerequisites necessary to start in F1.

I'll always consider that a knee-jerk reaction that wasn't necessary in the first place and has killed/is killing off a few great racing series.

Vettel didn't take massive shortcuts, he started on a national single seater series which he did two years, went on to two years racing in F3, then drove in one of two top-flight series and was leading it, then got called up to F1.

You might call it a slight shortcut to not complete his FR3.5 year, but not massive of any kind.

Pullrod wrote: It is better if we talk in terms of experience.

Sure, but that was not how F1 MERCENARY put it and his statement was what triggered my response and this discussion: "aged 20 Hamilton was better than Verstappen".

JackAttack_19 wrote:Two wins in 55 starts, and a few other flashes of brilliance and we're writing off three of the all-time greats to bestow this kid as the best? Puh-lease.

The other three have an entire CV full of Malaysian Grand Prix performances, full of Brazilian Grand Prix performances. Lets have this discussion if/when he has produced that sort of material season in, season out whilst under the pressure of fighting for a WDC. Until then he's not in the conversation tbh.

People are looking for the next "best driver"(anyone but Hamilton/Vettel) since Alonso's star is fading, and Ricciardo who was his successor is failing big time to put manners on the Dutch wunderkind.

Compare the career paths of Hamilton and Verstappen with that of Senna, and you see three different kinds of entry into F1. How that entry comes about is not just decided by results in lower classes. I remember Senna didn't want to go directly into a top team, something that makes me wonder whether Hamilton was aware of it. I suppose he must have been, as a fan of Senna, but that may well explain why, at the time, it was said that Hamilton was the best-groomed F1 entry in the history of the class. So was newcomer Villeneuve, but he could hardly be called a top level novice.
Was Hamilton less afflicted by testing restrictions than Verstappen? If so, that raises Max's standing in my estimation. Simulators have improved massively over the last decade, but it is still only simulation. Then again, he has probably profited massively from having inherited racing talent from both parents. How many aspiring drivers can say that?

Results and actions speak for themselves, but I am rather wary of commentators (and fans) bigging up some drivers with selective interpretations of them.

I was impressed by all three, and find myself believing Max is indeed the better driver at his current age. But he isn't the best F1 driver at the moment.

JackAttack_19 wrote:Two wins in 55 starts, and a few other flashes of brilliance and we're writing off three of the all-time greats to bestow this kid as the best? Puh-lease.

It's when someone posts this kind of stat that I end up with my head in my hands

JackAttack_19 wrote:Two wins in 55 starts, and a few other flashes of brilliance and we're writing off three of the all-time greats to bestow this kid as the best? Puh-lease.

The other three have an entire CV full of Malaysian Grand Prix performances, full of Brazilian Grand Prix performances. Lets have this discussion if/when he has produced that sort of material season in, season out whilst under the pressure of fighting for a WDC. Until then he's not in the conversation tbh.

No-one's writing anyone off, AFAIAA. Just saying they may not be better than Max is

He's arguably looking to be better than Ricciardo at this point and many people consider Ricciardo better than Vettel. (I'm not one of them, but it's at least a position held by many). There is constant debate over who is better between Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso, so bearing all the above in mind it's not hard to connect the dots and make a case for Max being the best of all. It's not definitive, but it's certainly not about writing off any of the others

It is hard to dispute that Max is probably the best/fastest F1 driver of his age in all F1 history. However now he's 20 he now has to become more of a man racer than a boy racer to take the next step and be considered great regardless of age. This last race was a good start with good clean decisive moves. Hopefully now he's won a race this season he can calm down and be more calculative and precise in his moves to reduce his incident rate so he can actually finish more races. He is the future though after Hamilton retires.

mas wrote:It is hard to dispute that Max is probably the best/fastest F1 driver of his age in all F1 history. However now he's 20 he now has to become more of a man racer than a boy racer to take the next step and be considered great regardless of age. This last race was a good start with good clean decisive moves. Hopefully now he's won a race this season he can calm down and be more calculative and precise in his moves to reduce his incident rate so he can actually finish more races. He is the future though after Hamilton retires.

Ideally we'd get to see them head-to-head on a level playing field before then

mcdo wrote:

mas wrote:It is hard to dispute that Max is probably the best/fastest F1 driver of his age in all F1 history. However now he's 20 he now has to become more of a man racer than a boy racer to take the next step and be considered great regardless of age. This last race was a good start with good clean decisive moves. Hopefully now he's won a race this season he can calm down and be more calculative and precise in his moves to reduce his incident rate so he can actually finish more races. He is the future though after Hamilton retires.

Ideally we'd get to see them head-to-head on a level playing field before then

Well, if recent news are correct that both Merc and Ferrari are going to target Max when his contract runs out, it looks like either Lewis or Seb will have Max has a teammate for 2019. If I had to guess, I would say it will be Lewis.

mas wrote:It is hard to dispute that Max is probably the best/fastest F1 driver of his age in all F1 history. However now he's 20 he now has to become more of a man racer than a boy racer to take the next step and be considered great regardless of age. This last race was a good start with good clean decisive moves. Hopefully now he's won a race this season he can calm down and be more calculative and precise in his moves to reduce his incident rate so he can actually finish more races. He is the future though after Hamilton retires.

What about Vettel though. And we all know Leclerc will destroy Verstappen and win roughly 19 WDCs.


Maybe even 20.

Black_Flag_11 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Black_Flag_11 wrote:I agree, I have to see more from him before I can rate him ahead of Hamilton/Vettel and then probably more still before I can rate him ahead of Alonso. I have a feeling that I will though when all is said and done.

I've said it before but those Red Bull boys could well be the best 2 drivers on the grid right now IMO.

I doubt that Ricciardo is better than Hamilton.

Fair enough, I think he might be.

At best he's equal in the dry, in the wet no chance, so overall I would say probably not.

KingVoid wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:It's far from rubbish actually. Max had very limited pre-F1 experience BUT coming in at 17 did wonders for him because the younger you can begin practicing something and honing your skills, the better you become in a shorter time period. Having said that, Hamilton was a phenom SINCE his karting days and by the time he made it to the Jr formulae he had vastly more experience than Verstappen did. Then Hamilton came into F1 and was "IMMEDIATELY" as fast, if not faster than his 2x World Championship teammate which is something we have NEVER seen in the modern era of F1.

I'll stick with my assessment of them.

Hamilton was 22 in his rookie season. Verstappen just turned 20.

You stated that Hamilton was better than Verstappen for his age. I pointed out that this is completely false. Hamilton on his 20th birthday finished 5th in Formula 3 and was beaten by drivers like Green, Premat, and Lapierre.

Verstappen at 19-20 is outclassing Ricciardo in the same car. Yes, Verstappen has outclassed Ricciardo this season regardless of what the points say.

I guess you just googled Hamilton's record and have no idea to the background to the series, well breaking news in a spec series sometimes all the cars are not the same, if you were not driving for ART then we were not winning anything.

Hamilton's teamed moved up with him from British FRenault into the series, so a rookie team and a rookie driver.

The following season he drove for ART and won 15 out of 20 races, that season also saw he debut of Vettel in the series who didn't win a race, Hamilton managed 1 win the year before, although they both finished 5th as rookies.

Vettel then replaced Hamilton in the team the following season and got beat by his teammate di Resta, di Resta won 5 races and Vettel won 4 races, they finished 1 and 2 in the series yet again for ART.

I daresay that if Hamilton had debuted in the series driving for ART he probably would have won it as a rookie.

mds wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:Having said that, Hamilton was a phenom SINCE his karting days and by the time he made it to the Jr formulae he had vastly more experience than Verstappen did.

Are you even aware of what Verstappen did in karting?

He started karting at age 4, to this date he is the youngest ever KZ1 world champion and the youngest ever to win a gearbox class karting world championship.

You're welcome to indicate how Hamilton had "vastly more experience" than Verstappen when he started in single seaters or how Verstappen wasn't a phenom since his karting days.

Then Hamilton came into F1 and was "IMMEDIATELY" as fast, if not faster than his 2x World Championship teammate which is something we have NEVER seen in the modern era of F1.

I don't dispute that, what I dispute is the following, hard to misinterpret statement by you:
Hamilton was even better at his age

History shows that a just-20yo Hamilton just came off the back of finishing fifth in F3. While a 17yo Verstappen was raking in the wins in F3 and a comparable 20-yo Verstappen just won his second race in F1.

There's no way you can make a good case for Hamilton being better having just turned 20 than Verstappen having just turned 20. That is nonsense and the facts above tell you why.

I say this again the 2 F3 series are not the same, when Hamilton raced it was higher up in the pecking order and that series got replaced by GP3.

mds wrote:

pokerman wrote: When Hamilton competed in F3 it was 2 rungs down from F1, when Verstappen competed in F3 it was 3 rungs down from F1, the driver that won the title, Ocon then went into GP3.

Hamilton competed in the F3 Euroseries which later got disbanded and replaced by GP3, F3 then later got rehashed but at a lower level to what it was originally.

And Verstappen was a single seater rookie outright, and he still went up against some promising drivers.

But this dicussion doesn't even have to revolve around their first seasons in F3. The statement was simple, "aged 20 Hamilton was better than Verstappen". And then the plain simple facts are Hamilton had just come fifth in F3 while Verstappen has just imperiously won an F1 race. That statement was nonsense.

I've already answered about Hamilton coming 5th in F3, he was in an inferior car.

Pullrod wrote:

KingVoid wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:It's far from rubbish actually. Max had very limited pre-F1 experience BUT coming in at 17 did wonders for him because the younger you can begin practicing something and honing your skills, the better you become in a shorter time period. Having said that, Hamilton was a phenom SINCE his karting days and by the time he made it to the Jr formulae he had vastly more experience than Verstappen did. Then Hamilton came into F1 and was "IMMEDIATELY" as fast, if not faster than his 2x World Championship teammate which is something we have NEVER seen in the modern era of F1.

I'll stick with my assessment of them.

Hamilton was 22 in his rookie season. Verstappen just turned 20.

You stated that Hamilton was better than Verstappen for his age. I pointed out that this is completely false. Hamilton on his 20th birthday finished 5th in Formula 3 and was beaten by drivers like Green, Premat, and Lapierre.

Verstappen at 19-20 is outclassing Ricciardo in the same car. Yes, Verstappen has outclassed Ricciardo this season regardless of what the points say.

The get out of jail free card for Verstappen seems to be his age.
He is 20 years old but has now competed for 2,5 years in F1.
He still have "2" years to make mistakes and improve before being compared to Hamilton at the same age.[what a luxury]

He took a massive shortcut(same for Vettel), no wonder the FIA had to quickly reform the superlicense prerequisites necessary to start in F1. Good for him and his entourage.

Without doubt Verstappen was outstanding in his debut in F3, but Hamilton had to win every series he contested in to get to F1, that's the remit McLaren put on him, Verstappen did not win one title, neither did Vettel for that matter unless you want to count German BMW?

mcdo wrote:

mas wrote:It is hard to dispute that Max is probably the best/fastest F1 driver of his age in all F1 history. However now he's 20 he now has to become more of a man racer than a boy racer to take the next step and be considered great regardless of age. This last race was a good start with good clean decisive moves. Hopefully now he's won a race this season he can calm down and be more calculative and precise in his moves to reduce his incident rate so he can actually finish more races. He is the future though after Hamilton retires.

Ideally we'd get to see them head-to-head on a level playing field before then

It may happen in 2019?

kleefton wrote:

mcdo wrote:

mas wrote:It is hard to dispute that Max is probably the best/fastest F1 driver of his age in all F1 history. However now he's 20 he now has to become more of a man racer than a boy racer to take the next step and be considered great regardless of age. This last race was a good start with good clean decisive moves. Hopefully now he's won a race this season he can calm down and be more calculative and precise in his moves to reduce his incident rate so he can actually finish more races. He is the future though after Hamilton retires.

Ideally we'd get to see them head-to-head on a level playing field before then

Well, if recent news are correct that both Merc and Ferrari are going to target Max when his contract runs out, it looks like either Lewis or Seb will have Max has a teammate for 2019. If I had to guess, I would say it will be Lewis.

That would be my guess as well, I just hope Vettel doesn't get another tomato can as a teammate.

pokerman wrote: I say this again the 2 F3 series are not the same, when Hamilton raced it was higher up in the pecking order and that series got replaced by GP3.

You can argue long and hard about how high up it was, or you can be sensible and look at the level of drivers. Verstappen as a rookie went up against some good talent.

I've already answered about Hamilton coming 5th in F3, he was in an inferior car.

And Verstappen was a single seater rookie, so both had a disadvantage.
That put aside, what exactly was inferior on his car? For all I know the F302 was exactly the same as the F303 and F304, just built in a different year? Both Mercedes engines. Tell me, I want to know.

Anyway, what are you trying to prove here? That you agree with F1 MERCENARY's statement about Hamilton being better then Verstappen at same age?

Age does matter somewhat as it's tied into experience but the more important aspect is the amount of experience at the top level. Max is only 20 but he does have going on three full seasons of F1 experience which will amount to about 60 races.

Invade wrote:

mas wrote:It is hard to dispute that Max is probably the best/fastest F1 driver of his age in all F1 history. However now he's 20 he now has to become more of a man racer than a boy racer to take the next step and be considered great regardless of age. This last race was a good start with good clean decisive moves. Hopefully now he's won a race this season he can calm down and be more calculative and precise in his moves to reduce his incident rate so he can actually finish more races. He is the future though after Hamilton retires.

What about Vettel though. And we all know Leclerc will destroy Verstappen and win roughly 19 WDCs.

Maybe even 20.

Vettel is like Hamilton, part of the glorious present. Leclerc could be the future too if his current form translates well when he joins Sauber next year. He is one of the cleanest overtakers I have ever seen e.g. he even makes Ricciardo look clumsy . However will his speed be up there with the best when he joins F1? Still to be determined.

mds wrote:

pokerman wrote: I say this again the 2 F3 series are not the same, when Hamilton raced it was higher up in the pecking order and that series got replaced by GP3.

You can argue long and hard about how high up it was, or you can be sensible and look at the level of drivers. Verstappen as a rookie went up against some good talent.

I've already answered about Hamilton coming 5th in F3, he was in an inferior car.

And Verstappen was a single seater rookie, so both had a disadvantage.
That put aside, what exactly was inferior on his car? For all I know the F302 was exactly the same as the F303 and F304, just built in a different year? Both Mercedes engines. Tell me, I want to know.

Anyway, what are you trying to prove here? That you agree with F1 MERCENARY's statement about Hamilton being better then Verstappen at same age?

I'm not agreeing with what he said I'm just saying that all I'm seeing is people googling driver's records without knowing what they are talking about, you google that all the teams had the same car and basically the same engine so all the car are the same, there is a reason why ART won the title for about 6 years running an it wasn't just about the drivers themselves.

Also all the drivers that finished above Hamilton drove in the series the year before so Hamilton was the top rookie and driving for a rookie team, Verstappen wasn't actually the top rookie that was Ocon, the Champion, although I would say he was probably in a better car, although if you google it will probably say they were in the same car.

pokerman wrote: I'm not agreeing with what he said I'm just saying that all I'm seeing is people googling driver's records without knowing what they are talking about, you google that all the teams had the same car and basically the same engine so all the car are the same, there is a reason why ART won the title for about 6 years running an it wasn't just about the drivers themselves.

OK. Well, I've said this before that this is something of a chicken and egg scenario. A team wins with a driver, the driver graduates, everybody wants a seat at that team because they won, the team gets their pick of driver, they choose the one they like most (= the best drivers), driver wins again. So why does the driver win, because the team is the best or because the driver is?

Look at recent GP2/F2 years. Vandoorne dominated with ART when before you "had to be at DAMS". Vandoorne leaves ART, Gasly and Gio dominate at Prema. Last 7 years, 6 different teams won the team championship.

Also all the drivers that finished above Hamilton drove in the series the year before so Hamilton was the top rookie and driving for a rookie team, Verstappen wasn't actually the top rookie that was Ocon, the Champion, although I would say he was probably in a better car, although if you google it will probably say they were in the same car.

Said it before, Verstappen was new to car racing entirely. That has to count for something too. As soon as he really got up to speed, he outscored everyone including Ocon.

mds wrote:

pokerman wrote: I'm not agreeing with what he said I'm just saying that all I'm seeing is people googling driver's records without knowing what they are talking about, you google that all the teams had the same car and basically the same engine so all the car are the same, there is a reason why ART won the title for about 6 years running an it wasn't just about the drivers themselves.

OK. Well, I've said this before that this is something of a chicken and egg scenario. A team wins with a driver, the driver graduates, everybody wants a seat at that team because they won, the team gets their pick of driver, they choose the one they like most (= the best drivers), driver wins again. So why does the driver win, because the team is the best or because the driver is?

Look at recent GP2/F2 years. Vandoorne dominated with ART when before you "had to be at DAMS". Vandoorne leaves ART, Gasly and Gio dominate at Prema. Last 7 years, 6 different teams won the team championship.

Also all the drivers that finished above Hamilton drove in the series the year before so Hamilton was the top rookie and driving for a rookie team, Verstappen wasn't actually the top rookie that was Ocon, the Champion, although I would say he was probably in a better car, although if you google it will probably say they were in the same car.

Said it before, Verstappen was new to car racing entirely. That has to count for something too. As soon as he really got up to speed, he outscored everyone including Ocon.

F3 Euroseries

2004

1. Green (ART)
2. Premat (ART)
4. Rosberg
5. Hamilton
7. Kubica

2005

1. Hamilton (ART)
2. Sutil (ART)
5. Vettel
10. di Resta

2006

1. di Resta (ART)
2. Vettel (ART)
12. Buemi
13. Grosjean

2007

1. Grosjean (ART)
2. Buemi
3. Hulkenberg (ART)
4. Kobayashi (ART)

You sure it's just about ART getting the best drivers?

I'm not disagreeing with the case you are making for Verstappen, just that you're being a bit unfair on Hamilton.

mds wrote:

pokerman wrote: When Hamilton competed in F3 it was 2 rungs down from F1, when Verstappen competed in F3 it was 3 rungs down from F1, the driver that won the title, Ocon then went into GP3.

Hamilton competed in the F3 Euroseries which later got disbanded and replaced by GP3, F3 then later got rehashed but at a lower level to what it was originally.

And Verstappen was a single seater rookie outright, and he still went up against some promising drivers.

But this dicussion doesn't even have to revolve around their first seasons in F3. The statement was simple, "aged 20 Hamilton was better than Verstappen". And then the plain simple facts are Hamilton had just come fifth in F3 while Verstappen has just imperiously won an F1 race. That statement was nonsense.

I fully get your argument but pokerman outlined the layers to the information you're basing your opinion on and you're dismissing it.

As for their karting careers…

Hamilton's karting career was started on a shoestring budget and he competed in classes where mechanics accounted for differences in power and performance and they didn't have the money to have the top mechanics building their engines for a couple of years at least. That is until they connected with Nicky Richardson and they allowed Hamilton to run one of his engines and immediately Hamilton was able to match and exceed the top guys' times consistently. That's how much variance there was in performance in the "spec" classes Hamilton raced in throughout his entire karting career. Later he enjoyed the same type of advantages, but not always. His Zip chassis though was just decent at best.

Verstappen's Karting career started off with the best of the best from the very beginning AND he ran in Rotax classes which are a fully controlled series and the engines are all built identically and sealed by certified techs who's seals have unique ID numbers and if they are caught doing anything suspiciously different to extract more performance, their license is pulled immediately and they can never again performed sanctioned work on Rotax motors. That's why it's more expensive to run Rotax than any other engine. As such performance and power output between Rotax engines is pretty identical from unit to unit, and while Verstappen was superb and was winning, he was winning in the most stringent spec classes throughout his karting career and all he had to do was driver better than everyone else and for the most part he was able to do so and he didn't have to overcome power deficits that I know of the way Hamilton did.

And before anyone claims Hamilton was running in spec classes also, the classes he ran in allowed for private mechanics to perform engine work freely and many of the top engine builders have little modifications and tricks that extract more performance and produce more power from engines than other mechanics can. The Yamaha KT100 is the greatest example of this with some mechanics being able to produce significantly more power using all the same parts. The top guys running KT100's usually have specific mechanics building and tuning the engines and as such enjoy a competitive advantage much the way dominant teams in F1 do and thus win by solid margins consistently.

It really is not apples to apples and one thing I want everyone to keep in mind is that I rate Max very highly so it's not like I'm bashing on him. He is indeed quite fast, but at times he compensates for lack of speed with aggressive tactics where for the most part has seen him be lucky the other guy was quick enough to avoid accidents. In Monaco in particular where drivers are likely tested more extremely than on any other circuit in the world, he's crashed a couple of times. And while it can happen to anyone due to the extreme close confines spanning the entire length of the circuit, it happened to him. That in and of itself speaks volumes as to where he falls in line with the top guys. Hamilton botched it twice himself but not while trying to go fast on the limit. At least that I can recall off the top of my head. Once in China entering the pits and Canada 2008 but he was in the mix for a championship for the 2nd year in succession. Max has yet to challenge for one but I stated months ago he is better than his highly touted teammate and was told I was wrong because the points since last year didn't support my argument. I have no doubt Max will become one of the top drivers soon enough, but right now IMPO that's not the case just yet and I find Hamilton was better at 20 than max is today, but I think you really have to go back and watch Lewis's 2007 & 2008 performances back to see how excellent he was at 20 to see understand why I see it that way.

We can assess Verstappen's assets and liabilities, but it is premature to judge any driver at this stage of his career. Let's just enjoy the ride.

Pullrod wrote:

KingVoid wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:It's far from rubbish actually. Max had very limited pre-F1 experience BUT coming in at 17 did wonders for him because the younger you can begin practicing something and honing your skills, the better you become in a shorter time period. Having said that, Hamilton was a phenom SINCE his karting days and by the time he made it to the Jr formulae he had vastly more experience than Verstappen did. Then Hamilton came into F1 and was "IMMEDIATELY" as fast, if not faster than his 2x World Championship teammate which is something we have NEVER seen in the modern era of F1.

I'll stick with my assessment of them.

Hamilton was 22 in his rookie season. Verstappen just turned 20.

You stated that Hamilton was better than Verstappen for his age. I pointed out that this is completely false. Hamilton on his 20th birthday finished 5th in Formula 3 and was beaten by drivers like Green, Premat, and Lapierre.

Verstappen at 19-20 is outclassing Ricciardo in the same car. Yes, Verstappen has outclassed Ricciardo this season regardless of what the points say.

The get out of jail free card for Verstappen seems to be his age.
He is 20 years old but has now competed for 2,5 years in F1.
He still have "2" years to make mistakes and improve before being compared to Hamilton at the same age.[what a luxury]

He took a massive shortcut(same for Vettel), no wonder the FIA had to quickly reform the superlicense prerequisites necessary to start in F1. Good for him and his entourage.

I remember a bunch of drivers being interviewed about Verstappen late 2014. Hamilton himself said that he wasn't ready for F1 at the age of 17 (so did Alonso).

The reason to why Verstappen began his F1 career 5 years younger than Hamilton did is because he's a once in a generation driver. Easily the best for his age.

Pullrod wrote:A quick way to compare Verstappen in this discussion is to ask: would Max have been leading the 2007 WDC if he was in Hamilton's car?

Absolutely, why not?

KingVoid wrote:

Pullrod wrote:A quick way to compare Verstappen in this discussion is to ask: would Max have been leading the 2007 WDC if he was in Hamilton's car?

Absolutely, why not?

This year? Quite possibly. In 2015? I can't imagine he would have been, no. Max had far more rough edges in his rookie year than Lewis did.

mds wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:Having said that, Hamilton was a phenom SINCE his karting days and by the time he made it to the Jr formulae he had vastly more experience than Verstappen did.

Are you even aware of what Verstappen did in karting?

He started karting at age 4, to this date he is the youngest ever KZ1 world champion and the youngest ever to win a gearbox class karting world championship.

You're welcome to indicate how Hamilton had "vastly more experience" than Verstappen when he started in single seaters or how Verstappen wasn't a phenom since his karting days.

Then Hamilton came into F1 and was "IMMEDIATELY" as fast, if not faster than his 2x World Championship teammate which is something we have NEVER seen in the modern era of F1.

I don't dispute that, what I dispute is the following, hard to misinterpret statement by you:
Hamilton was even better at his age

History shows that a just-20yo Hamilton just came off the back of finishing fifth in F3. While a 17yo Verstappen was raking in the wins in F3 and a comparable 20-yo Verstappen just won his second race in F1.

There's no way you can make a good case for Hamilton being better having just turned 20 than Verstappen having just turned 20. That is nonsense and the facts above tell you why.

Actually Hamilton turned 20 in 2005. That's the year he won the F3 Euroseries championship with 15 wins and 13 pole positions in 20 races. Dominating that championship in the way that he did that year is arguably as impressive as Max winning an F1 race while trailing his teammate by a mile in the points.

The main thing is that Hamilton had to do that in order to get into F1 while Max was given the opportunity from a much earlier stage. Hamilton won championships in Formula Renault 2.0, Formula 3 and GP2 before racing in F1. Max did just the one season in F3 (won a lot of races but finished 3rd overall). I'm not sure which route is better but it will be interesting to see how Max develops and whether or not it seems he would have benefited with more seasoning. I never really had the feeling that he wasn't prepared to be out there actually; which is a surprise.

Certainly Hamilton was not ready for F1 at 17 years of age (nor has any other driver been). At the very least, Max has a unique learning curve and this year it's clear that he is indeed getting better. You have to EARN that title of best in the world though. You don't get it because of what people think you can do someday. You get it because of what you have done.

Exediron wrote:

KingVoid wrote:

Pullrod wrote:A quick way to compare Verstappen in this discussion is to ask: would Max have been leading the 2007 WDC if he was in Hamilton's car?

Absolutely, why not?

This year? Quite possibly. In 2015? I can't imagine he would have been, no. Max had far more rough edges in his rookie year than Lewis did.

Max was far less experienced in 2015 than Lewis was in 2007. In 2015, Max had done one only season in Formula 3. In fact, in terms of overall single seater experience, Max is only in his 4th year. He is still less experienced than Lewis was in 2007 (who was in his 6th year of single seater driving).

Do you think that the 2004 version of Lewis who just finished his first season in Formula 3 would be able to drive at the same level the 2007 version of Lewis was able to drive at?

KingVoid wrote:

Pullrod wrote:

KingVoid wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:It's far from rubbish actually. Max had very limited pre-F1 experience BUT coming in at 17 did wonders for him because the younger you can begin practicing something and honing your skills, the better you become in a shorter time period. Having said that, Hamilton was a phenom SINCE his karting days and by the time he made it to the Jr formulae he had vastly more experience than Verstappen did. Then Hamilton came into F1 and was "IMMEDIATELY" as fast, if not faster than his 2x World Championship teammate which is something we have NEVER seen in the modern era of F1.

I'll stick with my assessment of them.

Hamilton was 22 in his rookie season. Verstappen just turned 20.

You stated that Hamilton was better than Verstappen for his age. I pointed out that this is completely false. Hamilton on his 20th birthday finished 5th in Formula 3 and was beaten by drivers like Green, Premat, and Lapierre.

Verstappen at 19-20 is outclassing Ricciardo in the same car. Yes, Verstappen has outclassed Ricciardo this season regardless of what the points say.

The get out of jail free card for Verstappen seems to be his age.
He is 20 years old but has now competed for 2,5 years in F1.
He still have "2" years to make mistakes and improve before being compared to Hamilton at the same age.[what a luxury]

He took a massive shortcut(same for Vettel), no wonder the FIA had to quickly reform the superlicense prerequisites necessary to start in F1. Good for him and his entourage.

I remember a bunch of drivers being interviewed about Verstappen late 2014. Hamilton himself said that he wasn't ready for F1 at the age of 17 (so did Alonso).

The reason to why Verstappen began his F1 career 5 years younger than Hamilton did is because he's a once in a generation driver. Easily the best for his age.

Pullrod wrote:A quick way to compare Verstappen in this discussion is to ask: would Max have been leading the 2007 WDC if he was in Hamilton's car?

Absolutely, why not?

Verstappen in his second season got beat by Ricciardo and wasn't night and day better than Sainz in his rookie season when Sainz himself was a rookie, yet you see him beating Alonso in his first season, the hype machine is in overdrive.

sandman1347 wrote:

mds wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:Having said that, Hamilton was a phenom SINCE his karting days and by the time he made it to the Jr formulae he had vastly more experience than Verstappen did.

Are you even aware of what Verstappen did in karting?

He started karting at age 4, to this date he is the youngest ever KZ1 world champion and the youngest ever to win a gearbox class karting world championship.

You're welcome to indicate how Hamilton had "vastly more experience" than Verstappen when he started in single seaters or how Verstappen wasn't a phenom since his karting days.

Then Hamilton came into F1 and was "IMMEDIATELY" as fast, if not faster than his 2x World Championship teammate which is something we have NEVER seen in the modern era of F1.

I don't dispute that, what I dispute is the following, hard to misinterpret statement by you:
Hamilton was even better at his age

History shows that a just-20yo Hamilton just came off the back of finishing fifth in F3. While a 17yo Verstappen was raking in the wins in F3 and a comparable 20-yo Verstappen just won his second race in F1.

There's no way you can make a good case for Hamilton being better having just turned 20 than Verstappen having just turned 20. That is nonsense and the facts above tell you why.

Actually Hamilton turned 20 in 2005. That's the year he won the F3 Euroseries championship with 15 wins and 13 pole positions in 20 races. Dominating that championship in the way that he did that year is arguably as impressive as Max winning an F1 race while trailing his teammate by a mile in the points.

The main thing is that Hamilton had to do that in order to get into F1 while Max was given the opportunity from a much earlier stage. Hamilton won championships in Formula Renault 2.0, Formula 3 and GP2 before racing in F1. Max did just the one season in F3 (won a lot of races but finished 3rd overall). I'm not sure which route is better but it will be interesting to see how Max develops and whether or not it seems he would have benefited with more seasoning. I never really had the feeling that he wasn't prepared to be out there actually; which is a surprise.

Certainly Hamilton was not ready for F1 at 17 years of age (nor has any other driver been). At the very least, Max has a unique learning curve and this year it's clear that he is indeed getting better. You have to EARN that title of best in the world though. You don't get it because of what people think you can do someday. You get it because of what you have done.

Exactly I was a big Senna fan but no matter how good I thought he was I would never say he was the best unless he beat the best in the same car, then he went up against Prost.

Verstappen certainly has the potential to be the best but at this stage just beating Ricciardo is not enough for me.

KingVoid wrote:

Exediron wrote:

KingVoid wrote:

Pullrod wrote:A quick way to compare Verstappen in this discussion is to ask: would Max have been leading the 2007 WDC if he was in Hamilton's car?

Absolutely, why not?

This year? Quite possibly. In 2015? I can't imagine he would have been, no. Max had far more rough edges in his rookie year than Lewis did.

Max was far less experienced in 2015 than Lewis was in 2007. In 2015, Max had done one only season in Formula 3. In fact, in terms of overall single seater experience, Max is only in his 4th year. He is still less experienced than Lewis was in 2007 (who was in his 6th year of single seater driving).

Do you think that the 2004 version of Lewis who just finished his first season in Formula 3 would be able to drive at the same level the 2007 version of Lewis was able to drive at?

No but then again neither would a 2015 Verstappen.

Max is very good, but needs polishing.
As he is not in the title fight, both Vettel and Ham will not fight him as hard.
Ham did the smart thing and let him go last race rather than do what Vettel did in Singapore.

And as for those doubting Ricciardo, look at the points. He is in 4th in the WDC.
He is beating Kimi, and only 45 behind Bottas in 3rd. (The gap to Ham is bigger. 59 points ahead of Bottas.)
The Red Bull has been a clear 3rd best car all year.
That and he was 3rd in the WDC in 2014 and 2016. Which was best of the rest behind the unbeatable Merc duo!
Dan has shown frustration (lack of motivation) at being at Red Bull for 4 years and still has not been given a WDC capable car. I hope Red Bull deliver that next year as this is when we will see Dan at his best, and also a fast improving Max.
I think Dan will beat Max again in 2018.

pokerman wrote:Verstappen in his second season got beat by Ricciardo and wasn't night and day better than Sainz in his rookie season when Sainz himself was a rookie, yet you see him beating Alonso in his first season, the hype machine is in overdrive.

Not all rookies are equal. Verstappen was 17 and had one season of single seater experience. Hamilton was 22 and had 6 years of single seater experience.

Verstappen in 2017 is still less experienced than Hamilton was in 2007, and he's easily as good as Hamilton was in 2007. He has battered a very good driver Ricciardo in qualifying, and would be comfortably ahead of him in the standings too if not for some atrocious luck.

pokerman wrote:No but then again neither would a 2015 Verstappen.

see above.

pokerman wrote: 2004

1. Green (ART)
2. Premat (ART)
4. Rosberg
5. Hamilton
7. Kubica

2005

1. Hamilton (ART)
2. Sutil (ART)
5. Vettel
10. di Resta

2006

1. di Resta (ART)
2. Vettel (ART)
12. Buemi
13. Grosjean

2007

1. Grosjean (ART)
2. Buemi
3. Hulkenberg (ART)
4. Kobayashi (ART)

You sure it's just about ART getting the best drivers?

In the knowledge that drivers get better in their second season in a series: yes?
I mean the graduation rate of those drivers towards F1 is very high - I don't think you'd make a case for them being painted in a good light by being at ART and they just were lucky to be there, if not they'd not be in F1 on merit?

I think that highlights that the best drivers end up (or used to end up) at ART, supporting the chicken/egg theory.

I'm not disagreeing with the case you are making for Verstappen, just that you're being a bit unfair on Hamilton.

Don't see how I'm being unfair on Hamilton... The only thing I'm saying is that the idea that Hamilton was "even better than Verstappen" at same age isn't supported by facts.

Randine wrote: Dan has shown frustration (lack of motivation) at being at Red Bull for 4 years and still has not been given a WDC capable car. I hope Red Bull deliver that next year as this is when we will see Dan at his best, and also a fast improving Max.
I think Dan will beat Max again in 2018.

Does this mean you also support the theory that Vettel was just lacking in motivation in 2014 when not having a WDC capable car anymore, and that's why Ricciardo was faster than him?

sandman1347 wrote: Actually Hamilton turned 20 in 2005. That's the year he won the F3 Euroseries championship with 15 wins and 13 pole positions in 20 races.

No, you have to see what I said there. Max turned 20 last weekend. Hamilton turned 20 before he started the 2005 F3 championship. If you take the 2005 F3 championship you're comparing with the year, starting from now, that Max will have. No way to look in the future now, right?

F1 MERCENARY wrote:

mds wrote:

pokerman wrote: When Hamilton competed in F3 it was 2 rungs down from F1, when Verstappen competed in F3 it was 3 rungs down from F1, the driver that won the title, Ocon then went into GP3.

Hamilton competed in the F3 Euroseries which later got disbanded and replaced by GP3, F3 then later got rehashed but at a lower level to what it was originally.

And Verstappen was a single seater rookie outright, and he still went up against some promising drivers.

But this dicussion doesn't even have to revolve around their first seasons in F3. The statement was simple, "aged 20 Hamilton was better than Verstappen". And then the plain simple facts are Hamilton had just come fifth in F3 while Verstappen has just imperiously won an F1 race. That statement was nonsense.

I fully get your argument but pokerman outlined the layers to the information you're basing your opinion on and you're dismissing it.

I'm also pointing out things he isn't taking into account - like Verstappen being an absolute car racing rookie in F3 when he started and how that works to his disadvantage when comparing their rookie F3 seasons.

But as I said, we don't even have to compare their rookie F3 seasons. Point is that Hamilton, aged 20, was driving in F3 while Verstappen, aged 20, is a frontrunner in F1, has very much earned his place and is hot property, arguably top 4 driver or at least top 5.

One simply can't say Hamilton was better, aged 20, than Verstappen is, aged 20. I'm not saying he was much worse or something, but really nothing will make a convincing or compelling argument for him being better - there only seem to be mitigating factors (not being at ART being the prime one) for why he came fifth in F3.

I get what you are saying about their karting careers, I won't dispute it, but I wasn't saying Max's karting career was better than Hamilton's. I was saying two things mainly:
1. Verstappen was also very experienced in karts by the time he got to single seaters
2. He was also regarded as a phenomenon in karts, and regardless of Hamilton having a harder time, Max did set a few very noteworthy records as mentioned before. It's his karting performances that got him on the radar to begin with, in Europe everybody was talking about him way before he came to single seaters.

It really is not apples to apples and one thing I want everyone to keep in mind is that I rate Max very highly so it's not like I'm bashing on him. He is indeed quite fast, but at times he compensates for lack of speed with aggressive tactics where for the most part has seen him be lucky the other guy was quick enough to avoid accidents. In Monaco in particular where drivers are likely tested more extremely than on any other circuit in the world, he's crashed a couple of times. And while it can happen to anyone due to the extreme close confines spanning the entire length of the circuit, it happened to him. That in and of itself speaks volumes as to where he falls in line with the top guys. Hamilton botched it twice himself but not while trying to go fast on the limit. At least that I can recall off the top of my head. Once in China entering the pits and Canada 2008 but he was in the mix for a championship for the 2nd year in succession. Max has yet to challenge for one but I stated months ago he is better than his highly touted teammate and was told I was wrong because the points since last year didn't support my argument. I have no doubt Max will become one of the top drivers soon enough, but right now IMPO that's not the case just yet and I find Hamilton was better at 20 than max is today, but I think you really have to go back and watch Lewis's 2007 & 2008 performances back to see how excellent he was at 20 to see understand why I see it that way.

Well, I could agree with most of this paragraph, but the bit in bold is puzzling me a bit... Hamilton was 22-23 in 2007-2008. How does that tell us how good he was a few years before that?

pokerman wrote: Verstappen in his second season got beat by Ricciardo

I don't think that's all too fair. He had the big disadvantage of having no build-up to the season in that car. No pre-season testing means lots and lots of missed kilometers in the car to familiarize yourself with it, and during racing weekends you're not going anywhere near a full testing day. Given 6 full-day pre season testing days per driver, and four racing weekends not in the RB12, he started with about 12 racing weekends worth of kilometers less than Ricciardo. He still managed to catch up his single-lap pace by the second half of the season though, and his race pace was not much different from Ricciardo's most of the time. So he actually did very well to work away the disadvantage.

wasn't night and day better than Sainz in his rookie season when Sainz himself was a rookie, yet you see him beating Alonso in his first season, the hype machine is in overdrive.

Well, I agree that Verstappen with just a season of F3 under his belt and nothing more would not have beaten Alonso.

I do think he did a good job against Sainz, who did have a lot of experience in single seater racing, and got to compete in a top flight series. I do think he was a lot better than Sainz - just not in the single lap department.