planetf1.com

Seb was still adding more lock once overlap occurred which is clear in the video too.



Vettel must see how close Stroll is in the 2nd picture, why didn't he just open the wheel out a bit here to be safe. That is his error really.

I would say Stroll is blameless after watching from his cockpit. Steering lock is consistent and he moves predictably. Vettel clearly turned across when the cars were still.overlaping.

I don't think a penalty would be the right call here at all, but maybe the FIA witheld the Stroll on board so they didn't have to penalise Vettel in the interests of the title race.

We have already seen in Baku how convenient the timing of Vettels penalty was - issued immediately after Hamilton would lose the race win himself as he was ordered to pit with the head rest issue. Net result they leave 153, 139 in points with Hamilton having a slightly superior car at the time going forward = good for title race. If they had issued Vettels penalty earlier, it would have given at the time a likely out come of Hamilton leaving with a slight championship lead and what was starting to look like a dominant car for the run in.

It is very odd, an on board only surfacing 5 days later. I can never remember that occurring before.

lamo wrote:I don't think a penalty would be the right call here at all, but maybe the FIA witheld the Stroll on board so they didn't have to penalise Vettel in the interests of the title race.

We have already seen in Baku how convenient the timing of Vettels penalty was - issued immediately after Hamilton would lose the race win himself as he was ordered to pit with the head rest issue. Net result they leave 153, 139 in points with Hamilton having a slightly superior car at the time going forward = good for title race. If they had issued Vettels penalty earlier, it would have given at the time a likely out come of Hamilton leaving with a slight championship lead and what was starting to look like a dominant car for the run in.

It is very odd, an on board only surfacing 5 days later. I can never remember that occurring before.

A penalty would have been a joke

mcdo wrote:

lamo wrote:I don't think a penalty would be the right call here at all, but maybe the FIA witheld the Stroll on board so they didn't have to penalise Vettel in the interests of the title race.

We have already seen in Baku how convenient the timing of Vettels penalty was - issued immediately after Hamilton would lose the race win himself as he was ordered to pit with the head rest issue. Net result they leave 153, 139 in points with Hamilton having a slightly superior car at the time going forward = good for title race. If they had issued Vettels penalty earlier, it would have given at the time a likely out come of Hamilton leaving with a slight championship lead and what was starting to look like a dominant car for the run in.

It is very odd, an on board only surfacing 5 days later. I can never remember that occurring before.

A penalty would have been a joke

Yes it would, but there hands might have been tied for an at fault accident. You are probably right, maybe I am over speculating here. It just seems weird the footage took so long to surface.

lamo wrote:I don't think a penalty would be the right call here at all, but maybe the FIA witheld the Stroll on board so they didn't have to penalise Vettel in the interests of the title race.

We have already seen in Baku how convenient the timing of Vettels penalty was - issued immediately after Hamilton would lose the race win himself as he was ordered to pit with the head rest issue. Net result they leave 153, 139 in points with Hamilton having a slightly superior car at the time going forward = good for title race. If they had issued Vettels penalty earlier, it would have given at the time a likely out come of Hamilton leaving with a slight championship lead and what was starting to look like a dominant car for the run in.

It is very odd, an on board only surfacing 5 days later. I can never remember that occurring before.

Seb finished the race 19 seconds ahead of Bottas. The FIA could have easily given Seb a 5 sec or 10 sec penalty without affecting the result but yet be seen to penalise him.

angrypirate wrote:

lamo wrote:I don't think a penalty would be the right call here at all, but maybe the FIA witheld the Stroll on board so they didn't have to penalise Vettel in the interests of the title race.

We have already seen in Baku how convenient the timing of Vettels penalty was - issued immediately after Hamilton would lose the race win himself as he was ordered to pit with the head rest issue. Net result they leave 153, 139 in points with Hamilton having a slightly superior car at the time going forward = good for title race. If they had issued Vettels penalty earlier, it would have given at the time a likely out come of Hamilton leaving with a slight championship lead and what was starting to look like a dominant car for the run in.

It is very odd, an on board only surfacing 5 days later. I can never remember that occurring before.

Seb finished the race 19 seconds ahead of Bottas. The FIA could have easily given Seb a 5 sec or 10 sec penalty without affecting the result but yet be seen to penalise him.

True, but also probably points on his license. Isn't he close to a 10 place grid drop points wise.

lamo wrote:

angrypirate wrote:

lamo wrote:I don't think a penalty would be the right call here at all, but maybe the FIA witheld the Stroll on board so they didn't have to penalise Vettel in the interests of the title race.

We have already seen in Baku how convenient the timing of Vettels penalty was - issued immediately after Hamilton would lose the race win himself as he was ordered to pit with the head rest issue. Net result they leave 153, 139 in points with Hamilton having a slightly superior car at the time going forward = good for title race. If they had issued Vettels penalty earlier, it would have given at the time a likely out come of Hamilton leaving with a slight championship lead and what was starting to look like a dominant car for the run in.

It is very odd, an on board only surfacing 5 days later. I can never remember that occurring before.

Seb finished the race 19 seconds ahead of Bottas. The FIA could have easily given Seb a 5 sec or 10 sec penalty without affecting the result but yet be seen to penalise him.

True, but also probably points on his license. Isn't he close to a 10 place grid drop points wise.

No. He had a couple come off his license after Silverstone I believe

Prema wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Prema wrote:

pokerman wrote: I have to ask what conditions are they racing under after the flag?

Not "racing" exactly, but under the conditions of many fast moving cars on the track, where they are allowed to drive side by side and even overtake each other, which obviously does happen every now and then. Under the conditions that in no way provide any legs to your rather a bizarre idea how drivers should not be checking their mirrors when they are on the cool-down lap.
But the agenda of allocating blame to Vettel by hook or by a crook, so much so that you'd lose the common sense and go suggesting and then stubbornly defending this senseless idea of yours, is too strong?

If it was so clear cut who was at fault then the stewards would have penalised Stroll, they seem to apportion a certain amount of blame to both drivers.

I didn't mean to take part in the blame-allocating game. Just pointing out how your agenda has been so strong that you have lost a common sense by arguing the said bizarre idea of yours that drivers shouldn't be looking into their mirrors on a cool-down lap. Just because that would kind of free Stroll from any blame and hence "establish" Vettel a guilty driver by default then.

More and more evidence seems to point more to what I was saying.

mds wrote:

angrypirate wrote: Vettel was overtaking Stroll at a needless point (ie after the race). Vettel should have given Stroll more space. From the footage (both on board clips) it looks like Vettel cut across much more than Stroll drifted wide. You could argue that maybe Stroll should have been more aware of him in his mirrors but ultimately Vettel didnt need to overtake and had plenty of space to the right of him and chose not to use it. I cant see how this isnt 100% Vettel's fault.

It amazes me how after all this, question marks are still being put at the non-event that driving by another car after the race is. Seriously, stop peddling that argument, it isn't one.

Now if I could just watch that footage here in Belgium :/

It's strange that in all the outlets I read the only one that looks to blame in particularly Stroll is on this forum.

Clarky wrote:

Fiki wrote:

Black_Flag_11 wrote:Who's to say what the stewards thought of this incident, maybe they thought it was 100% Stroll's fault, 100% Vettel's fault, 50/50, 70/30 etc. The fact that no penalty was given doesn't prove anything as to who the stewards thought was to blame, only that they didn't see it as being worthy of a penalty.

What the stewards thought is clear from their report:

Decision No further action.
Reason The Stewards examined video evidence.
On the approach to Turn 5 during the slow down lap after the end of the race, Car 18 (STR) was towards the middle of the track, Car 8 (GRO) was closing from behind on the inside of Car 18 and at the same time, Car 5 (VET) overtook Car 18 on the outside and in doing so, turned in slightly towards the apex of Turn 5. Simultaneously Car 18 was moving slight away from the apex. This resulted in contact between the left rear tyre of Car 5 and the right front tyre of Car 18.
The Stewards consider that no driver was wholly or predominantly to blame for the incident and will therefore take no further action.
The Stewards also consider that even though the race has ended, caution still needs to be exercised by all drivers on the slow down lap.

Im shocked if the stewards did not have Stroll's onboard footage.

Indeed not that Vettel should necessarily be punished but how can you investigate something without all the evidence, there was never going to be a penalty.

Don't have the effort to start arguing blame more, but what this should really highlight is just how different an incident can look from different camera angles. From the car behind footage, i'd have bet my house that Stroll just washed out into Vettel, but with his onboard, it looks an entirely different story.

I think no action is needed, and the moral of the story is to watch what you're doing on the cool down lap.

Prema wrote:

pokerman wrote:[You seem to think I'm alone in this, I do seem to be a bit alone on here, but many F1 pundits ask the question what was Vettel doing?

What are you talking about now? That many F1 pundits are agreeing with you that drivers on the cool-down lap should not look into their mirrors?

You didn't watch the Sky stream were an ex F1 driver said that on the cool down lap you are not always paying attention to what's going on around you, you can be doing all sorts of things like waving to the crowd, then the 2 ex F1 drivers question why cars need to be overtaking one another after the flag.

mds wrote:

lamo wrote: You keep maintaining this. Isn't it clear on corner entry he was on the outside of the track, at impact he was near the middle of the track.

Already answered this. It doesn't matter where Vettel was 5 car lengths behind Stroll, the point is that before he starts passing Stroll he is already at the same line he then maintains through the corner. And Stroll drifting outwards, and not looking his mirrors before doing so.

When Vettel was level with Stroll's car the front wheels were almost touching, yet Vettel kept steering left, he got to close to Stroll's car, there was no need.

mds wrote:

pokerman wrote: Then when asked about what happens after the flag he said as a rule you just follow the car in front into the pits so that goes back to me saying why did Vettel need to be passing cars, what was the rush.

Think we've already established that said "rule" doesn't exist at all, going by pretty much every single race in every single seater & motorbike racing category in the past tens of years.

Still as a rule it was said that cars tend to follow one another, there was no need for Vettel to do what he did especially as he got too close to Stroll's car.

Tin foil hat time... was it deliberate... did he know he needed to have his car miss scrutineering in some way? Was it running light?

Hmmmm...

tootsie323 wrote:

Prema wrote:... On the other note, how's my grammar here? Is "wouldn't have happened" correct?

Reading the thread title, I don't think that you need worry too much about your own grammar.

Edited - somewhat ironically! - for grammar.

Could've also gone with the rarely used double contraction "wouldn't've" but that's typically only written when transcribing speech.

tootsie323 wrote:

Prema wrote:... On the other note, how's my grammar here? Is "wouldn't have happened" correct?

Reading the thread title, I don't think that you need worry too much about your own grammar.

Edited - somewhat ironically! - for grammar.

Yeah it´s wrong on so many levels... I´m not typically a grammar nazi nor is English my first or even second language but still it bugs me more than I´d like to admit.

pokerman wrote:

mds wrote:

angrypirate wrote: Vettel was overtaking Stroll at a needless point (ie after the race). Vettel should have given Stroll more space. From the footage (both on board clips) it looks like Vettel cut across much more than Stroll drifted wide. You could argue that maybe Stroll should have been more aware of him in his mirrors but ultimately Vettel didnt need to overtake and had plenty of space to the right of him and chose not to use it. I cant see how this isnt 100% Vettel's fault.

It amazes me how after all this, question marks are still being put at the non-event that driving by another car after the race is. Seriously, stop peddling that argument, it isn't one.

Now if I could just watch that footage here in Belgium :/

It's strange that in all the outlets I read the only one that looks to blame in particularly Stroll is on this forum.

I've just looked at a few outlets now and the only one that seeks to pin any blame on anyone appears to be SKY...

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

mds wrote:

angrypirate wrote: Vettel was overtaking Stroll at a needless point (ie after the race). Vettel should have given Stroll more space. From the footage (both on board clips) it looks like Vettel cut across much more than Stroll drifted wide. You could argue that maybe Stroll should have been more aware of him in his mirrors but ultimately Vettel didnt need to overtake and had plenty of space to the right of him and chose not to use it. I cant see how this isnt 100% Vettel's fault.

It amazes me how after all this, question marks are still being put at the non-event that driving by another car after the race is. Seriously, stop peddling that argument, it isn't one.

Now if I could just watch that footage here in Belgium :/

It's strange that in all the outlets I read the only one that looks to blame in particularly Stroll is on this forum.

I've just looked at a few outlets now and the only one that seeks to pin any blame on anyone appears to be SKY...

Shock horror

Covalent wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

mds wrote:

angrypirate wrote: Vettel was overtaking Stroll at a needless point (ie after the race). Vettel should have given Stroll more space. From the footage (both on board clips) it looks like Vettel cut across much more than Stroll drifted wide. You could argue that maybe Stroll should have been more aware of him in his mirrors but ultimately Vettel didnt need to overtake and had plenty of space to the right of him and chose not to use it. I cant see how this isnt 100% Vettel's fault.

It amazes me how after all this, question marks are still being put at the non-event that driving by another car after the race is. Seriously, stop peddling that argument, it isn't one.

Now if I could just watch that footage here in Belgium :/

It's strange that in all the outlets I read the only one that looks to blame in particularly Stroll is on this forum.

I've just looked at a few outlets now and the only one that seeks to pin any blame on anyone appears to be SKY...

Shock horror

I know, I can hardly believe it. They're always such big Vettel fans...

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

mds wrote:

angrypirate wrote: Vettel was overtaking Stroll at a needless point (ie after the race). Vettel should have given Stroll more space. From the footage (both on board clips) it looks like Vettel cut across much more than Stroll drifted wide. You could argue that maybe Stroll should have been more aware of him in his mirrors but ultimately Vettel didnt need to overtake and had plenty of space to the right of him and chose not to use it. I cant see how this isnt 100% Vettel's fault.

It amazes me how after all this, question marks are still being put at the non-event that driving by another car after the race is. Seriously, stop peddling that argument, it isn't one.

Now if I could just watch that footage here in Belgium :/

It's strange that in all the outlets I read the only one that looks to blame in particularly Stroll is on this forum.

I've just looked at a few outlets now and the only one that seeks to pin any blame on anyone appears to be SKY...

Do they pin blame on Stroll?

new footage on sky videos from strolls car shows him deffinately not at all turning into vettel , and shows its absolutely vettels fault , ant and johnny Herbert on the sky pad and they both agree its not strolls fault and clearly shows he was swiped by a Ferrari

its proberly not what you want to hear , but check it out and how do Ferrari and vettel keep getting away with it -clearly Ferrari international assistance at work here , and its very sad for F1

we'll call it a racing accident because vettel is fighting for a championship , and we don't want to annoy ferrari

slide wrote:new footage on sky videos from strolls car shows him deffinately not at all turning into vettel , and shows its absolutely vettels fault , ant and johnny Herbert on the sky pad and they both agree its not strolls fault and clearly shows he was swiped by a Ferrari

its proberly not what you want to hear , but check it out and how do Ferrari and vettel keep getting away with it -clearly Ferrari international assistance at work here , and its very sad for F1

we'll call it a racing accident because vettel is fighting for a championship , and we don't want to annoy ferrari

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAWMzEFksYs


From that view it looks pretty damning for Seb.

_Rogue_ wrote:

slide wrote:new footage on sky videos from strolls car shows him deffinately not at all turning into vettel , and shows its absolutely vettels fault , ant and johnny Herbert on the sky pad and they both agree its not strolls fault and clearly shows he was swiped by a Ferrari

its proberly not what you want to hear , but check it out and how do Ferrari and vettel keep getting away with it -clearly Ferrari international assistance at work here , and its very sad for F1

we'll call it a racing accident because vettel is fighting for a championship , and we don't want to annoy ferrari

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAWMzEFksYs


From that view it looks pretty damning for Seb.

It is damning for Sebastian - so much so that you'll find my apology to those I castigated for not waiting for a better view in the Malaysian GP thread where it happened.

I might have noted here in this thread, Sebs close proximity to Stroll but the video above clearly shows the dramatic "speed" differential between the two, which "after" the checkers have flown I can see no reason for (save for desperately needing to to hit the head - or the "loo" as some might say....).

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

mds wrote:

angrypirate wrote: Vettel was overtaking Stroll at a needless point (ie after the race). Vettel should have given Stroll more space. From the footage (both on board clips) it looks like Vettel cut across much more than Stroll drifted wide. You could argue that maybe Stroll should have been more aware of him in his mirrors but ultimately Vettel didnt need to overtake and had plenty of space to the right of him and chose not to use it. I cant see how this isnt 100% Vettel's fault.

It amazes me how after all this, question marks are still being put at the non-event that driving by another car after the race is. Seriously, stop peddling that argument, it isn't one.

Now if I could just watch that footage here in Belgium :/

It's strange that in all the outlets I read the only one that looks to blame in particularly Stroll is on this forum.

I've just looked at a few outlets now and the only one that seeks to pin any blame on anyone appears to be SKY...

Do they pin blame on Stroll?

I think you well know that they are blaming Vettel. But the point is your declaration that only one place - this forum - is blaming Stroll is a little disingenuous because only one place is laying any blame at all

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

mds wrote:

angrypirate wrote: Vettel was overtaking Stroll at a needless point (ie after the race). Vettel should have given Stroll more space. From the footage (both on board clips) it looks like Vettel cut across much more than Stroll drifted wide. You could argue that maybe Stroll should have been more aware of him in his mirrors but ultimately Vettel didnt need to overtake and had plenty of space to the right of him and chose not to use it. I cant see how this isnt 100% Vettel's fault.

It amazes me how after all this, question marks are still being put at the non-event that driving by another car after the race is. Seriously, stop peddling that argument, it isn't one.

Now if I could just watch that footage here in Belgium :/

It's strange that in all the outlets I read the only one that looks to blame in particularly Stroll is on this forum.

I've just looked at a few outlets now and the only one that seeks to pin any blame on anyone appears to be SKY...

Do they pin blame on Stroll?

Having just seen the new footage, I think Vettel is partly to blame for the incident. But seeing how footage from different cameras can give different impressions, only footage from atop the track would have been the most accurate.

For Sky to blame it entirely on Vettel, is a bit like saying that Austria 2016 was Hamilton's fault because Rosberg still had his steering wheel turned ever so slightly going through the corner.
At no point the Sky analysis mentions the fact that Stroll still under-steered the corner and was drifting away towards the outside of the corner, more than Vettel's over-steer by comparison (quite evident from the previous footage at the back too).

partly to blame ! check out the stroll footage from the Williams , and explain how stroll is partly to blame

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

mds wrote: It amazes me how after all this, question marks are still being put at the non-event that driving by another car after the race is. Seriously, stop peddling that argument, it isn't one.

Now if I could just watch that footage here in Belgium :/

It's strange that in all the outlets I read the only one that looks to blame in particularly Stroll is on this forum.

I've just looked at a few outlets now and the only one that seeks to pin any blame on anyone appears to be SKY...

Do they pin blame on Stroll?

I think you well know that they are blaming Vettel. But the point is your declaration that only one place - this forum - is blaming Stroll is a little disingenuous because only one place is laying any blame at all

No I meant do these other outlets blame Stroll especially after the latest evidence presents itself, after all the task here seems to be to absolve Vettel of any blame.

I read and see more things than just Sky TV but they are all British based so I suppose they default to be bias, unfortunately I only speak English.

Poker,I swear that if Vettel farted in the men's room you would find a way to make it a 10 page diatribe of condemnation on this forum.... it never ever seems to come to an end.

Did any other news outlets run this story, I'm interested to see what they said since its been suggested Sky are biased which they can be at times. Didn't see any articles of the new footage being discussed on BBC, Autosport or crash.net

Were Vettel to fart in the men's room, only two things would be certain. Immediately, he would blame the other guy, probably including the phrase, 'I mean, seriously?' in a high pitched voice. When subsequent testing demonstrated that the odoriferous airborne fecal matter emanated from Vettel's posterior, he would refuse to accept the evidence.

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:[quote="pokerman"
It's strange that in all the outlets I read the only one that looks to blame in particularly Stroll is on this forum.

I've just looked at a few outlets now and the only one that seeks to pin any blame on anyone appears to be SKY...

Do they pin blame on Stroll?

I think you well know that they are blaming Vettel. But the point is your declaration that only one place - this forum - is blaming Stroll is a little disingenuous because only one place is laying any blame at all

No I meant do these other outlets blame Stroll especially after the latest evidence presents itself, after all the task here seems to be to absolve Vettel of any blame.

I read and see more things than just Sky TV but they are all British based so I suppose they default to be bias, unfortunately I only speak English.[/quote]
I would suggest the opposite, that the task here appears to be to lay the blame at Vettel's feet.

None of the other outlets I have seen say anything (yet). It seems they have moved on

We'll i'm Dutch so not British-biased...

What i see at the least, is a driver taking unnecessary risks (Vettel):
- why overtake so close when the corner is wide enough to fit 4 cars?
- why overtake which such a speed difference?
- why overtake at all?

Looking at the latest footage i can think we can say Stroll isn't doing anything out of the ordinary.
Either Vettel doesn't know the dimensions of his car, or the conspiracy theories are right, and he was running out of fuel.

moby wrote:

lamo wrote:Players have been sent off by the referee after the match in football

I assumed it was the same. once the ref blows, the game is over, and he plays no further part
I never watch football, so will confess my lack of knowledge sorry

Not true, players have been shown a red card after the final whistle.

slide wrote:new footage on sky videos from strolls car shows him deffinately not at all turning into vettel , and shows its absolutely vettels fault , ant and johnny Herbert on the sky pad and they both agree its not strolls fault and clearly shows he was swiped by a Ferrari

its proberly not what you want to hear , but check it out and how do Ferrari and vettel keep getting away with it -clearly Ferrari international assistance at work here , and its very sad for F1

we'll call it a racing accident because vettel is fighting for a championship , and we don't want to annoy ferrari

Stroll doesn't turn into Vettel but he also doesn't follow the radius of the corner, Stroll just lets his car drift from the inside of the corner to the middle of the track.

GingerFurball wrote:

slide wrote:new footage on sky videos from strolls car shows him deffinately not at all turning into vettel , and shows its absolutely vettels fault , ant and johnny Herbert on the sky pad and they both agree its not strolls fault and clearly shows he was swiped by a Ferrari

its proberly not what you want to hear , but check it out and how do Ferrari and vettel keep getting away with it -clearly Ferrari international assistance at work here , and its very sad for F1

we'll call it a racing accident because vettel is fighting for a championship , and we don't want to annoy ferrari

Stroll doesn't turn into Vettel but he also doesn't follow the radius of the corner, Stroll just lets his car drift from the inside of the corner to the middle of the track.

Not true. He holds his line through the corner. If that is the middle of the track so be it.

lamo wrote:Did any other news outlets run this story, I'm interested to see what they said since its been suggested Sky are biased which they can be at times. Didn't see any articles of the new footage being discussed on BBC, Autosport or crash.net

I don't think anyone really cares. They've moved on already, there's a GP this weekend

I think spatial awareness is definitely a Vettel weakness. Found this clip by accident when watching Perez's joke to his engineer that his engine had failed on the last lap in Suzuka 2011. Vettel turns in on Schumacher oblivious that he is there and MS has to run the kerb to avoid him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGv4yrmBVHk

lamo wrote:I think spatial awareness is definitely a Vettel weakness. Found this clip by accident when watching Perez's joke to his engineer that his engine had failed on the last lap in Suzuka 2011. Vettel turns in on Schumacher oblivious that he is there and MS has to run the kerb to avoid him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGv4yrmBVHk

It may well be, but I think it worth bearing in mind that Schumacher is moving alongside a driver who is saluting the crowd, after becoming world champion again. If I understand some of the comments in this thread correctly, it was the overtaker who has to look out, not the picker-upper-of-marbles, or in this case the celebrating champion.

I believe, as somebody pointed out after Singapore, that the wider rear wheels may well be a factor that some drivers find harder to compensate for.