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Alienturnedhuman wrote:

ALESI wrote:Hamilton was awesome this morning, fastest in P2...

Never mind that he was one of only 5 cars to take the track, never mind that none of those other 5 cars was ever going to be faster, no Lewis was 'brilliant'.

Given that the previous post to yours in this thread was 5 days ago, no one could have possibly made that claim in here or used it as a justification of the thread's thesis.

sarcasm
ˈsɑːkaz(ə)m/Submit
noun
the use of irony to mock or convey contempt.

He's matched Vettel in WDCs, now it's all about who wins that 5th one first.

You'd have to place your bets on Lewis winning 2018 too. Bottas lacks the talent to challenge him and Mercedes have an inherit advantage in this era.

When/if Mercedes sign Max in 2019 is when I think that Lewis will be knocked off his pedestal.

KingVoid wrote:When/if Mercedes sign Max in 2019 is when I think that Lewis will be knocked off his pedestal.

I doubt it. Lewis has enjoyed a major incumbency advantage in 2007, 2008, 2010 and 2017. Of all the drivers, Kovalainen probably did the best arriving at Hamilton's team.

It would take something very special for Verstappen to unseat Hamilton after switching teams. I'd wager Hamilton to take the first season but the latter seasons will probably see Max prevail.

KingVoid wrote:He's matched Vettel in WDCs, now it's all about who wins that 5th one first.

You'd have to place your bets on Lewis winning 2018 too. Bottas lacks the talent to challenge him and Mercedes have an inherit advantage in this era.

When/if Mercedes sign Max in 2019 is when I think that Lewis will be knocked off his pedestal.

This championship wasn't about some sort of "inherent" advantage. This was about Ferrari coming unglued right when they had the opportunity to strike. 3 bad races in a row in crunch time (for various reasons). That's what determined the championship (assuming Hamilton hangs on to win it); not some car disadvantage. Ferrari have generally been a match for Mercedes; quicker sometimes and slower at others. They didn't lose because of the performance of the car. They lost due to reliability and mistakes.

KingVoid wrote:He's matched Vettel in WDCs, now it's all about who wins that 5th one first.

You'd have to place your bets on Lewis winning 2018 too. Bottas lacks the talent to challenge him and Mercedes have an inherit advantage in this era.

When/if Mercedes sign Max in 2019 is when I think that Lewis will be knocked off his pedestal.

Don't bet your house on it.. You might be disappointed..

F1Tyrant wrote:

KingVoid wrote:When/if Mercedes sign Max in 2019 is when I think that Lewis will be knocked off his pedestal.

I doubt it. Lewis has enjoyed a major incumbency advantage in 2007, 2008, 2010 and 2017. Of all the drivers, Kovalainen probably did the best arriving at Hamilton's team.

It would take something very special for Verstappen to unseat Hamilton after switching teams. I'd wager Hamilton to take the first season but the latter seasons will probably see Max prevail.

Hamilton and Verstappen seem to have a huge mutual respect for each other. I think that Hamilton would be the least complacent about beating Max if he moved to his team.

Alienturnedhuman wrote:

F1Tyrant wrote:

KingVoid wrote:When/if Mercedes sign Max in 2019 is when I think that Lewis will be knocked off his pedestal.

I doubt it. Lewis has enjoyed a major incumbency advantage in 2007, 2008, 2010 and 2017. Of all the drivers, Kovalainen probably did the best arriving at Hamilton's team.

It would take something very special for Verstappen to unseat Hamilton after switching teams. I'd wager Hamilton to take the first season but the latter seasons will probably see Max prevail.

Hamilton and Verstappen seem to have a huge mutual respect for each other. I think that Hamilton would be the least complacent about beating Max if he moved to his team.

Max knows who is the Boss(of speed) and Lewis sees a bit of himself when he looks at him.
Max has spent a LOT of time playing simulators and videogames so I am sure he has boosted Lewis Hamilton's onboard pole laps views count on Youtube. The young guy is bright.

Pullrod wrote:Don't bet your house on it.. You might be disappointed..

I will make sure to bump this thread again in 2019. I think it will be you who'll be proven wrong.

KingVoid wrote:

Pullrod wrote:Don't bet your house on it.. You might be disappointed..

I will make sure to bump this thread again in 2019. I think it will be you who'll be proven wrong.

I will be here.. I have all the data and I am "rarely" wrong
Just don't do like Nico.

I'd like to see Verstappen beat Ricciardo first though as he's lost out to him for two seasons now, which isn't so impressive as to say he'd likely outdo Hamilton.

Hamilton is the best of this generation as long as we assume that Max is already to be counted among the next generation. Otherwise it's getting too close to call. Max is the biggest talent to come into the sport since Hamilton's rookie season.

Invade wrote:I'd like to see Verstappen beat Ricciardo first though as he's lost out to him for two seasons now, which isn't so impressive as to say he'd likely outdo Hamilton.

I don't think that Max has been given the same opportunity to compete in as many races as Ricciardo this season. I'm not saying that Max would necessarily have beaten Ricciardo without the reliability issues, but his season has been severely curtailed by his engine failures.

Alienturnedhuman wrote:

Invade wrote:I'd like to see Verstappen beat Ricciardo first though as he's lost out to him for two seasons now, which isn't so impressive as to say he'd likely outdo Hamilton.

I don't think that Max has been given the same opportunity to compete in as many races as Ricciardo this season. I'm not saying that Max would necessarily have beaten Ricciardo without the reliability issues, but his season has been severely curtailed by his engine failures.

I certainly agree, but he's still gotta get over the top on points as that's what it's all about in the end. I think he's demonstrated that when he's on it over a weekend he's got everything you could want from a racer.

You guys are on the wrong thread aren't you?

Hamilton has to be close to it know purely on results, but there is another point to be taken into account in that his titles have not just been about winning Grand Prix but also about engagement. With the crowd, with other celebrities and through the media.

Have to say though that Ricciardo beats him for pure humour, can you imagine Vettel or Rosberg doing this?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/41466371

Pure genius!



Image source BBC

SmoothRide wrote:Hamilton is the best of this generation as long as we assume that Max is already to be counted among the next generation. Otherwise it's getting too close to call. Max is the biggest talent to come into the sport since Hamilton's rookie season.

Yeah, I think Max is definitely the heir apparent to the crown once Vettel/Hamilton/Alonso are out. Certainly seems to have the edge on Ocon/Wehrlein/Sainz out of the 'new' generation, though Leclerc is certainly making waves in the junior formula.

Flash2k11 wrote:

SmoothRide wrote:Hamilton is the best of this generation as long as we assume that Max is already to be counted among the next generation. Otherwise it's getting too close to call. Max is the biggest talent to come into the sport since Hamilton's rookie season.

Yeah, I think Max is definitely the heir apparent to the crown once Vettel/Hamilton/Alonso are out. Certainly seems to have the edge on Ocon/Wehrlein/Sainz out of the 'new' generation, though Leclerc is certainly making waves in the junior formula.

Ocon is making steady progress though, MV's future development depends if he has a decent PU next year or force a drive in a championship winning car, I don't think a Mercedes seat is nailed on at all.

Flash2k11 wrote:

SmoothRide wrote:Hamilton is the best of this generation as long as we assume that Max is already to be counted among the next generation. Otherwise it's getting too close to call. Max is the biggest talent to come into the sport since Hamilton's rookie season.

Yeah, I think Max is definitely the heir apparent to the crown once Vettel/Hamilton/Alonso are out. Certainly seems to have the edge on Ocon/Wehrlein/Sainz out of the 'new' generation, though Leclerc is certainly making waves in the junior formula.

Ocon is making steady progress though, MV's future development depends if he has a decent PU next year or force a drive in a championship winning car, I don't think a Mercedes seat is nailed on at all.

KingVoid wrote:He's matched Vettel in WDCs, now it's all about who wins that 5th one first.

You'd have to place your bets on Lewis winning 2018 too. Bottas lacks the talent to challenge him and Mercedes have an inherit advantage in this era.

When/if Mercedes sign Max in 2019 is when I think that Lewis will be knocked off his pedestal.

The WDC is not over until the fat lady sings.

KingVoid wrote:

Pullrod wrote:Don't bet your house on it.. You might be disappointed..

I will make sure to bump this thread again in 2019. I think it will be you who'll be proven wrong.

Verstappen is actually under contract to Red Bull for 2019.

Option or Prime wrote:

Flash2k11 wrote:

SmoothRide wrote:Hamilton is the best of this generation as long as we assume that Max is already to be counted among the next generation. Otherwise it's getting too close to call. Max is the biggest talent to come into the sport since Hamilton's rookie season.

Yeah, I think Max is definitely the heir apparent to the crown once Vettel/Hamilton/Alonso are out. Certainly seems to have the edge on Ocon/Wehrlein/Sainz out of the 'new' generation, though Leclerc is certainly making waves in the junior formula.

Ocon is making steady progress though, MV's future development depends if he has a decent PU next year or force a drive in a championship winning car, I don't think a Mercedes seat is nailed on at all.

I'm not so sure about Ocon, I think the car has flattered him. In my view he's been too far from Perez's pace to be considered a future star and doesn't seem to have made much progress during the season.

pokerman wrote:

KingVoid wrote:He's matched Vettel in WDCs, now it's all about who wins that 5th one first.

You'd have to place your bets on Lewis winning 2018 too. Bottas lacks the talent to challenge him and Mercedes have an inherit advantage in this era.

When/if Mercedes sign Max in 2019 is when I think that Lewis will be knocked off his pedestal.

The WDC is not over until the fat lady sings.

Nah he's got this one. Same way it felt last year that his name wasn't on the trophy because of all the things going against him, it now feels like his name is on the trophy for this year with things going for him.

I just can't see Mercedes falling apart for 2-3 weekends and Lewis is in great form so it just looks nailed on.

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

KingVoid wrote:He's matched Vettel in WDCs, now it's all about who wins that 5th one first.

You'd have to place your bets on Lewis winning 2018 too. Bottas lacks the talent to challenge him and Mercedes have an inherit advantage in this era.

When/if Mercedes sign Max in 2019 is when I think that Lewis will be knocked off his pedestal.

The WDC is not over until the fat lady sings.

Nah he's got this one. Same way it felt last year that his name wasn't on the trophy because of all the things going against him, it now feels like his name is on the trophy for this year with things going for him.

I just can't see Mercedes falling apart for 2-3 weekends and Lewis is in great form so it just looks nailed on.

He's a firm favourite now but things can still go wrong.

j man wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:

Flash2k11 wrote:

SmoothRide wrote:Hamilton is the best of this generation as long as we assume that Max is already to be counted among the next generation. Otherwise it's getting too close to call. Max is the biggest talent to come into the sport since Hamilton's rookie season.

Yeah, I think Max is definitely the heir apparent to the crown once Vettel/Hamilton/Alonso are out. Certainly seems to have the edge on Ocon/Wehrlein/Sainz out of the 'new' generation, though Leclerc is certainly making waves in the junior formula.

Ocon is making steady progress though, MV's future development depends if he has a decent PU next year or force a drive in a championship winning car, I don't think a Mercedes seat is nailed on at all.

I'm not so sure about Ocon, I think the car has flattered him. In my view he's been too far from Perez's pace to be considered a future star and doesn't seem to have made much progress during the season.

Agree. Swap him and Vandoorne and I think Stoff, with a car that behaves normally, would get up to speed quicker than he did at Macca and he'd be more of a threat to Perez than Ocon has been.

He's got talent though obviously and it's his first year but he's been lucky he's had such a reliable and competitive car which has given him the chance to be in points consistently which has got some headlines but he's just not troubling Perez enough or me, especially over 1 lap which isn't really a Perez strength.

pokerman wrote:

KingVoid wrote:He's matched Vettel in WDCs, now it's all about who wins that 5th one first.

You'd have to place your bets on Lewis winning 2018 too. Bottas lacks the talent to challenge him and Mercedes have an inherit advantage in this era.

When/if Mercedes sign Max in 2019 is when I think that Lewis will be knocked off his pedestal.

The WDC is not over until the fat lady sings.

she's definitely clearing her throat at the moment. It would take an almost unimaginable sequence of disasters for Lewis to lose it now.

sandman1347 wrote:

KingVoid wrote:He's matched Vettel in WDCs, now it's all about who wins that 5th one first.

You'd have to place your bets on Lewis winning 2018 too. Bottas lacks the talent to challenge him and Mercedes have an inherit advantage in this era.

When/if Mercedes sign Max in 2019 is when I think that Lewis will be knocked off his pedestal.

This championship wasn't about some sort of "inherent" advantage. This was about Ferrari coming unglued right when they had the opportunity to strike. 3 bad races in a row in crunch time (for various reasons). That's what determined the championship (assuming Hamilton hangs on to win it); not some car disadvantage. Ferrari have generally been a match for Mercedes; quicker sometimes and slower at others. They didn't lose because of the performance of the car. They lost due to reliability and mistakes.

The reliability/errors factor certainly contributed to Mercedes sitting pretty at the moment, but even without that Mercedes were usually the car to beat. This WDC was won as much on Saturday as it was on Sunday, if not more so. And in that the Mercedes have unquestionably been the car to beat

Without Ferrari suffering reliability issues on both cars in Malaysia and both suffering DNF's in Singapore added to Japan there would be nothing in the standings or even Vettel would be leading.
That's nothing to do with Mercedes holding a pace advantage in the last 3 races.

Yeah Singapore and Malaysia were clearly Ferrari pace wise imo. I'd give Suzuka to Mercedes though.

j man wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:

Flash2k11 wrote:

SmoothRide wrote:Hamilton is the best of this generation as long as we assume that Max is already to be counted among the next generation. Otherwise it's getting too close to call. Max is the biggest talent to come into the sport since Hamilton's rookie season.

Yeah, I think Max is definitely the heir apparent to the crown once Vettel/Hamilton/Alonso are out. Certainly seems to have the edge on Ocon/Wehrlein/Sainz out of the 'new' generation, though Leclerc is certainly making waves in the junior formula.

Ocon is making steady progress though, MV's future development depends if he has a decent PU next year or force a drive in a championship winning car, I don't think a Mercedes seat is nailed on at all.

I'm not so sure about Ocon, I think the car has flattered him. In my view he's been too far from Perez's pace to be considered a future star and doesn't seem to have made much progress during the season.

I disagree. While the start of the season saw Ocon regularly come home behind Perez, the second half of the season has been tit for tat between the two - races finished ahead is about even since Austria. That is progress

Lotus49 wrote:Yeah Singapore and Malaysia were clearly Ferrari pace wise imo. I'd give Suzuka to Mercedes though.

Vettel would have still got 18 points in Japan minimum though. Hamilton literally could not have asked for anything more in Singapore and Malaysia, there's luck then there is what happened those two weekends on both strong Ferrari tracks.

F1_Ernie wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:Yeah Singapore and Malaysia were clearly Ferrari pace wise imo. I'd give Suzuka to Mercedes though.

Vettel would have still got 18 points in Japan minimum though. Hamilton literally could not have asked for anything more in Singapore and Malaysia, there's luck then there is what happened those two weekends on both strong Ferrari tracks.

Yeah I think we're on the same page, I was just agreeing the Mercedes haven't had a pace advantage these last 3 weekends. More like 1.

Flash2k11 wrote:

SmoothRide wrote:Hamilton is the best of this generation as long as we assume that Max is already to be counted among the next generation. Otherwise it's getting too close to call. Max is the biggest talent to come into the sport since Hamilton's rookie season.

Yeah, I think Max is definitely the heir apparent to the crown once Vettel/Hamilton/Alonso are out. Certainly seems to have the edge on Ocon/Wehrlein/Sainz out of the 'new' generation, though Leclerc is certainly making waves in the junior formula.

Vandoorne is the wildcard in this situation. He's flown under the radar due to his slow start, but his recent performances against Alonso have been much improved.

Although obviously he's not quite in Hamilton 07 levels of rookie competitiveness yet, however Alonso has a more harmonious relationship with the team.

Max is definitely the current stand out driver of the under 25s by a level, and closest to being a complete driver, however they are all still developing.

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

KingVoid wrote:He's matched Vettel in WDCs, now it's all about who wins that 5th one first.

You'd have to place your bets on Lewis winning 2018 too. Bottas lacks the talent to challenge him and Mercedes have an inherit advantage in this era.

When/if Mercedes sign Max in 2019 is when I think that Lewis will be knocked off his pedestal.

The WDC is not over until the fat lady sings.

she's definitely clearing her throat at the moment. It would take an almost unimaginable sequence of disasters for Lewis to lose it now.

Like 2007?

I can't sit comfortable until it's won.

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

KingVoid wrote:He's matched Vettel in WDCs, now it's all about who wins that 5th one first.

You'd have to place your bets on Lewis winning 2018 too. Bottas lacks the talent to challenge him and Mercedes have an inherit advantage in this era.

When/if Mercedes sign Max in 2019 is when I think that Lewis will be knocked off his pedestal.

The WDC is not over until the fat lady sings.

she's definitely clearing her throat at the moment. It would take an almost unimaginable sequence of disasters for Lewis to lose it now.

Just two.

mikeyg123 wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

KingVoid wrote:He's matched Vettel in WDCs, now it's all about who wins that 5th one first.

You'd have to place your bets on Lewis winning 2018 too. Bottas lacks the talent to challenge him and Mercedes have an inherit advantage in this era.

When/if Mercedes sign Max in 2019 is when I think that Lewis will be knocked off his pedestal.

The WDC is not over until the fat lady sings.

she's definitely clearing her throat at the moment. It would take an almost unimaginable sequence of disasters for Lewis to lose it now.

Just two.

There are four races to go. Even if Hamilton crashed out in two of them Vettel would still need to win both and that would still put him 7 places behind Hamilton. Meaning that on top of that Hamilton would have to have further issues in at least one of the final two races. Given how steady his campaign has been thus far, I'd say that qualifies as almost uimaginable

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

KingVoid wrote:He's matched Vettel in WDCs, now it's all about who wins that 5th one first.

You'd have to place your bets on Lewis winning 2018 too. Bottas lacks the talent to challenge him and Mercedes have an inherit advantage in this era.

When/if Mercedes sign Max in 2019 is when I think that Lewis will be knocked off his pedestal.

The WDC is not over until the fat lady sings.

she's definitely clearing her throat at the moment. It would take an almost unimaginable sequence of disasters for Lewis to lose it now.

Like 2007?

I can't sit comfortable until it's won.

It'd effectively have to be twice as bad as 2007. There's caution, and there's sheer unmitigated pessimism!

Zoue wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

KingVoid wrote:He's matched Vettel in WDCs, now it's all about who wins that 5th one first.

You'd have to place your bets on Lewis winning 2018 too. Bottas lacks the talent to challenge him and Mercedes have an inherit advantage in this era.

When/if Mercedes sign Max in 2019 is when I think that Lewis will be knocked off his pedestal.

The WDC is not over until the fat lady sings.

she's definitely clearing her throat at the moment. It would take an almost unimaginable sequence of disasters for Lewis to lose it now.

Just two.

There are four races to go. Even if Hamilton crashed out in two of them Vettel would still need to win both and that would still put him 7 places behind Hamilton. Meaning that on top of that Hamilton would have to have further issues in at least one of the final two races. Given how steady his campaign has been thus far, I'd say that qualifies as almost uimaginable

Same could have been said of Vettel 3 races back really. We don't have to imagine it. We have seen what can happen!

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

KingVoid wrote:He's matched Vettel in WDCs, now it's all about who wins that 5th one first.

You'd have to place your bets on Lewis winning 2018 too. Bottas lacks the talent to challenge him and Mercedes have an inherit advantage in this era.

When/if Mercedes sign Max in 2019 is when I think that Lewis will be knocked off his pedestal.

The WDC is not over until the fat lady sings.

she's definitely clearing her throat at the moment. It would take an almost unimaginable sequence of disasters for Lewis to lose it now.

Like 2007?

I can't sit comfortable until it's won.

It'd effectively have to be twice as bad as 2007. There's caution, and there's sheer unmitigated pessimism!

It's not quite that bad. in 07 Kimi was 17 points which in new money is 43 behind with 2 races to go.

Vettel is 59 points behind with 4 races to go.

If Hamilton gets involved in a start incident and has a failure then it all comes down to who performs best over the other two races.

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

KingVoid wrote:He's matched Vettel in WDCs, now it's all about who wins that 5th one first.

You'd have to place your bets on Lewis winning 2018 too. Bottas lacks the talent to challenge him and Mercedes have an inherit advantage in this era.

When/if Mercedes sign Max in 2019 is when I think that Lewis will be knocked off his pedestal.

The WDC is not over until the fat lady sings.

she's definitely clearing her throat at the moment. It would take an almost unimaginable sequence of disasters for Lewis to lose it now.

Like 2007?

I can't sit comfortable until it's won.

It'd effectively have to be twice as bad as 2007. There's caution, and there's sheer unmitigated pessimism!

That would be me, finger nail biting to the end.

Zoue wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

KingVoid wrote:He's matched Vettel in WDCs, now it's all about who wins that 5th one first.

You'd have to place your bets on Lewis winning 2018 too. Bottas lacks the talent to challenge him and Mercedes have an inherit advantage in this era.

When/if Mercedes sign Max in 2019 is when I think that Lewis will be knocked off his pedestal.

This championship wasn't about some sort of "inherent" advantage. This was about Ferrari coming unglued right when they had the opportunity to strike. 3 bad races in a row in crunch time (for various reasons). That's what determined the championship (assuming Hamilton hangs on to win it); not some car disadvantage. Ferrari have generally been a match for Mercedes; quicker sometimes and slower at others. They didn't lose because of the performance of the car. They lost due to reliability and mistakes.

The reliability/errors factor certainly contributed to Mercedes sitting pretty at the moment, but even without that Mercedes were usually the car to beat. This WDC was won as much on Saturday as it was on Sunday, if not more so. And in that the Mercedes have unquestionably been the car to beat

Despite the numerous times we've gone through the season race by race and shown that the Ferrari has been at least the equal of Mercedes over the course of the year, you still make this claim? That just reflects poorly on your integrity to be blunt. This has been your end-game since before the season started. Trying to position Ferrari and Vettel as dealing with a car deficit so that if they lose you have an excuse. They were not at a performance deficit overall, and anyone who's honest about the season can see that. The performance of the cars didn't create this situation. It was the performance of the team that created it. Walking away from their strongest tracks empty handed is the reason Ferrari have dropped so far back.

sandman1347 wrote:

Zoue wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

KingVoid wrote:He's matched Vettel in WDCs, now it's all about who wins that 5th one first.

You'd have to place your bets on Lewis winning 2018 too. Bottas lacks the talent to challenge him and Mercedes have an inherit advantage in this era.

When/if Mercedes sign Max in 2019 is when I think that Lewis will be knocked off his pedestal.

This championship wasn't about some sort of "inherent" advantage. This was about Ferrari coming unglued right when they had the opportunity to strike. 3 bad races in a row in crunch time (for various reasons). That's what determined the championship (assuming Hamilton hangs on to win it); not some car disadvantage. Ferrari have generally been a match for Mercedes; quicker sometimes and slower at others. They didn't lose because of the performance of the car. They lost due to reliability and mistakes.

The reliability/errors factor certainly contributed to Mercedes sitting pretty at the moment, but even without that Mercedes were usually the car to beat. This WDC was won as much on Saturday as it was on Sunday, if not more so. And in that the Mercedes have unquestionably been the car to beat

Despite the numerous times we've gone through the season race by race and shown that the Ferrari has been at least the equal of Mercedes over the course of the year, you still make this claim? That just reflects poorly on your integrity to be blunt. This has been your end-game since before the season started. Trying to position Ferrari and Vettel as dealing with a car deficit so that if they lose you have an excuse. They were not at a performance deficit overall, and anyone who's honest about the season can see that. The performance of the cars didn't create this situation. It was the performance of the team that created it. Walking away from their strongest tracks empty handed is the reason Ferrari have dropped so far back.

No, simply no, Merc is the car to beat in 2017, anything else is dillusional.