Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

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pokerman
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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by pokerman »

Invade wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:What was the podcast out of interest,poker?.
I thought somebody might ask so I saved it. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIo_dyQpSeY

It's the American guy that talks about Button and the others don't look to correct him, one works part time for Autosport.

Pretty swish podcast. I'm catching up with a bunch of them.
I did the same, I watched a few back to back. :)
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KingVoid
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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by KingVoid »

Laz_T800 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:What biased glasses? No Hamilton fan is disputing that he has had his off days this year. I readily admit that. What I am saying however is that Vettel too has been found wanting a few times but as evidenced by you there is always excuses at the ready for him.
You claimed that Vettel "missed an open goal" in Austria when Mercedes was clearly the best car. And yet you do not claim that Hamilton missed an open goal in Monaco or Hungary, despite the fact that Bottas was only 0.045s and 0.250s off pole in those two weekends, while Raikkonen was over 0.500s off pole in Austria.

That is why I called your comment biased.
Lol, I think when he said Hamilton has had is "off days" he was probably referring to days such as qualification in Monaco and Hungary.
Oh yes, I'm perfectly aware of this.

What I called him out on is when he said that Vettel underperformed in Austria.

Zoue
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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by Zoue »

pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote: Yeah whilst Button apparently gets a gold star, I watched a podcast recently that put it forward that Button lead McLaren down a development garden path in 2012 because he was struggling and it was only after McLaren started listening to Hamilton again that they managed to pull their season around.
Yep, 400 engineers were scratching their heads until Lewis showed them the way.
If the engineers sort it out all by themselves why was Button needed to be present to sort out his problems?
Because the problems centered around Button being unable to find the right setup, not him leading the development of the car. They are two wholly separate issues
They clearly had to go down a different route to appease Button.
Sure they did. But in setup, not development. And as I recall they recovered by going back to the setup baseline that Hamilton originally used to get them back on track. Which again is different to them listening to Hamilton - it's not like he was giving them instructions on what to do

Zoue
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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by Zoue »

pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote: Perez took Hamilton's seat at McLaren, how did that work out for him?
Are you comparing the 2013 McLaren to the current Mercedes?
No I'm saying that Perez already had a chance at a top team, there is a reason why Perez drives for a midfield team and Hamilton drives for a top team and it has nothing to do with luck.
I think you are missing the point being made, which is that a car can often colour perceptions of a driver's worth. If Perez had been hired by Mercedes - and let's not forget, at the time they weren't what would be described as a leading team - then his name would probably be on everyone's lips now, rather than Hamilton's. And that's not taking anything away from either driver
You think that Perez beats Rosberg when he couldn't outqualify Button at McLaren, you think that Perez achieves what Hamilton achieves?
Again, not the point. The claim was never about being better than Hamilton, or even equal to him. It's about the fact that our perceptions of the relative worths of the drivers would be different if they had been in each other's cars. Who knows, maybe Perez would have beaten Rosberg, maybe not. But he would have been seen as a contender at least, while I very much doubt we'd be talking about Hamilton being he best of his generation

edit: crappy iPhone autocorrect

pokerman
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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by pokerman »

Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote: Yep, 400 engineers were scratching their heads until Lewis showed them the way.
If the engineers sort it out all by themselves why was Button needed to be present to sort out his problems?
Because the problems centered around Button being unable to find the right setup, not him leading the development of the car. They are two wholly separate issues
They clearly had to go down a different route to appease Button.
Sure they did. But in setup, not development. And as I recall they recovered by going back to the setup baseline that Hamilton originally used to get them back on track. Which again is different to them listening to Hamilton - it's not like he was giving them instructions on what to do
That basically doesn't change what was said about Button leading McLaren down a garden path, cars obviously get changed to suit drivers.
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Zoue
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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by Zoue »

pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote: If the engineers sort it out all by themselves why was Button needed to be present to sort out his problems?
Because the problems centered around Button being unable to find the right setup, not him leading the development of the car. They are two wholly separate issues
They clearly had to go down a different route to appease Button.
Sure they did. But in setup, not development. And as I recall they recovered by going back to the setup baseline that Hamilton originally used to get them back on track. Which again is different to them listening to Hamilton - it's not like he was giving them instructions on what to do
That basically doesn't change what was said about Button leading McLaren down a garden path, cars obviously get changed to suit drivers.
It completely changes it when you talk about development paths and infer that a driver is directing this. I know you know that development and setup are two completely different things

pokerman
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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by pokerman »

Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote: Are you comparing the 2013 McLaren to the current Mercedes?
No I'm saying that Perez already had a chance at a top team, there is a reason why Perez drives for a midfield team and Hamilton drives for a top team and it has nothing to do with luck.
I think you are missing the point being made, which is that a car can often colour perceptions of a driver's worth. If Perez had been hired by Mercedes - and let's not forget, at the time they weren't what would be described as a leading team - then his name would probably be on everyone's lips now, rather than Hamilton's. And that's not taking anything away from either driver
You think that Perez beats Rosberg when he couldn't outqualify Button at McLaren, you think that Perez achieves what Hamilton achieves?
Again, not the point. The claim was never about being better than Hamilton, or even equal to him. It's about the fact that our perceptions of the relative worths of the drivers would be different if they had been in each other's cars. Who knows, maybe Perez would have beaten Rosberg, maybe not. But he would have been seen as a contender at least, while I very much doubt we'd be talking about Hamilton being he best of his generation

edit: crappy iPhone autocorrect
Does our perception of Bottas change now he's driving for Mercedes?

Alonso is still highly touted despite driving crappy cars, all that changes for Hamilton is that his stats are not as impressive, Mercedes chased Hamilton because they saw him as being one of the best which Perez isn't.

Alonso being talked about still being the best of his generation despite the cars he drives yet for Hamilton he needed a dominant car to be considered the best of his generation is in part how you see Hamilton.
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pokerman
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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by pokerman »

Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote: Because the problems centered around Button being unable to find the right setup, not him leading the development of the car. They are two wholly separate issues
They clearly had to go down a different route to appease Button.
Sure they did. But in setup, not development. And as I recall they recovered by going back to the setup baseline that Hamilton originally used to get them back on track. Which again is different to them listening to Hamilton - it's not like he was giving them instructions on what to do
That basically doesn't change what was said about Button leading McLaren down a garden path, cars obviously get changed to suit drivers.
It completely changes it when you talk about development paths and infer that a driver is directing this. I know you know that development and setup are two completely different things
I would say that set up is something you can change during a race weekend whereas development can't, Button sent McLaren down the development garden path.
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Zoue
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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by Zoue »

pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote: They clearly had to go down a different route to appease Button.
Sure they did. But in setup, not development. And as I recall they recovered by going back to the setup baseline that Hamilton originally used to get them back on track. Which again is different to them listening to Hamilton - it's not like he was giving them instructions on what to do
That basically doesn't change what was said about Button leading McLaren down a garden path, cars obviously get changed to suit drivers.
It completely changes it when you talk about development paths and infer that a driver is directing this. I know you know that development and setup are two completely different things
I would say that set up is something you can change during a race weekend whereas development can't, Button sent McLaren down the development garden path.
I don't think that's true. Nor is it true that they "listened" to Hamilton for their development. This seems to me to be 100% speculation.

It's documented that Button struggled with his setup choices, which differed to Hamilton's. But I don't recall anything that says that he led any car development, or that Hamilton subsequently stepped in and the team only became successful once they listened to him. I think you are giving the drivers far too much credit here. All that happened was that Button set his car up differently but made some poor choices. Once he used Hamilton's setup as a base, he started showing immediate improvement. That is not car development

Button confirmed that the start point for this effort will be to work from Lewis Hamilton’s set up and then evolve from there, “The fist thing you do is set the car up like the other one and that’s how we’ll do it initially,” he said. “I won’t be as quick as him on those settings but then we can work from there and find a set up that works for me.”

https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2012/06/ ... tons-form/

Zoue
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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by Zoue »

pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote: No I'm saying that Perez already had a chance at a top team, there is a reason why Perez drives for a midfield team and Hamilton drives for a top team and it has nothing to do with luck.
I think you are missing the point being made, which is that a car can often colour perceptions of a driver's worth. If Perez had been hired by Mercedes - and let's not forget, at the time they weren't what would be described as a leading team - then his name would probably be on everyone's lips now, rather than Hamilton's. And that's not taking anything away from either driver
You think that Perez beats Rosberg when he couldn't outqualify Button at McLaren, you think that Perez achieves what Hamilton achieves?
Again, not the point. The claim was never about being better than Hamilton, or even equal to him. It's about the fact that our perceptions of the relative worths of the drivers would be different if they had been in each other's cars. Who knows, maybe Perez would have beaten Rosberg, maybe not. But he would have been seen as a contender at least, while I very much doubt we'd be talking about Hamilton being he best of his generation

edit: crappy iPhone autocorrect
Does our perception of Bottas change now he's driving for Mercedes?

Alonso is still highly touted despite driving crappy cars, all that changes for Hamilton is that his stats are not as impressive, Mercedes chased Hamilton because they saw him as being one of the best which Perez isn't.

Alonso being talked about still being the best of his generation despite the cars he drives yet for Hamilton he needed a dominant car to be considered the best of his generation is in part how you see Hamilton.
Did our perception of Rosberg change from 2014 onwards?

Hamilton would always be talked about as being good and I don't think that's even been up for debate. The point is solely that the last few years have coloured people's judgments because of the huge machinery advantage he's had. There have been a number of people, after all, who have questioned Alonso's position in relation to the top drivers currently for precisely that reason

pokerman
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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by pokerman »

Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I think you are missing the point being made, which is that a car can often colour perceptions of a driver's worth. If Perez had been hired by Mercedes - and let's not forget, at the time they weren't what would be described as a leading team - then his name would probably be on everyone's lips now, rather than Hamilton's. And that's not taking anything away from either driver
You think that Perez beats Rosberg when he couldn't outqualify Button at McLaren, you think that Perez achieves what Hamilton achieves?
Again, not the point. The claim was never about being better than Hamilton, or even equal to him. It's about the fact that our perceptions of the relative worths of the drivers would be different if they had been in each other's cars. Who knows, maybe Perez would have beaten Rosberg, maybe not. But he would have been seen as a contender at least, while I very much doubt we'd be talking about Hamilton being he best of his generation

edit: crappy iPhone autocorrect
Does our perception of Bottas change now he's driving for Mercedes?

Alonso is still highly touted despite driving crappy cars, all that changes for Hamilton is that his stats are not as impressive, Mercedes chased Hamilton because they saw him as being one of the best which Perez isn't.

Alonso being talked about still being the best of his generation despite the cars he drives yet for Hamilton he needed a dominant car to be considered the best of his generation is in part how you see Hamilton.
Did our perception of Rosberg change from 2014 onwards?

Hamilton would always be talked about as being good and I don't think that's even been up for debate. The point is solely that the last few years have coloured people's judgments because of the huge machinery advantage he's had. There have been a number of people, after all, who have questioned Alonso's position in relation to the top drivers currently for precisely that reason
As far back as 2007 Rosberg was rated as a top 6 driver and was short listed to replace Alonso at McLaren but he turned them down, then again in 2009 still a highly rated driver was signed by Mercedes in 2010.

After 2014 his rating hardly changed from being a top 6 driver and not much more, same with Bottas really, is Kimi highly rated because he drives a Ferrari?

Then expanding on that Rosberg got absolutely no credit for beating Schumacher and even got lambasted for his level of performance to being close as equal to him in 2012.

I can only say that in regards to Rosberg some would look to rubbish him because then Hamilton doesn't look as good, that's how these things tend to work when you look not to rate certain drivers.
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pokerman
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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by pokerman »

Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote: Sure they did. But in setup, not development. And as I recall they recovered by going back to the setup baseline that Hamilton originally used to get them back on track. Which again is different to them listening to Hamilton - it's not like he was giving them instructions on what to do
That basically doesn't change what was said about Button leading McLaren down a garden path, cars obviously get changed to suit drivers.
It completely changes it when you talk about development paths and infer that a driver is directing this. I know you know that development and setup are two completely different things
I would say that set up is something you can change during a race weekend whereas development can't, Button sent McLaren down the development garden path.
I don't think that's true. Nor is it true that they "listened" to Hamilton for their development. This seems to me to be 100% speculation.

It's documented that Button struggled with his setup choices, which differed to Hamilton's. But I don't recall anything that says that he led any car development, or that Hamilton subsequently stepped in and the team only became successful once they listened to him. I think you are giving the drivers far too much credit here. All that happened was that Button set his car up differently but made some poor choices. Once he used Hamilton's setup as a base, he started showing immediate improvement. That is not car development

Button confirmed that the start point for this effort will be to work from Lewis Hamilton’s set up and then evolve from there, “The fist thing you do is set the car up like the other one and that’s how we’ll do it initially,” he said. “I won’t be as quick as him on those settings but then we can work from there and find a set up that works for me.”

https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2012/06/ ... tons-form/
I'm sure I read an article were it talked about the 2 cars converging to create a car that both drivers could drive competitively?
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Zoue
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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by Zoue »

pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote: You think that Perez beats Rosberg when he couldn't outqualify Button at McLaren, you think that Perez achieves what Hamilton achieves?
Again, not the point. The claim was never about being better than Hamilton, or even equal to him. It's about the fact that our perceptions of the relative worths of the drivers would be different if they had been in each other's cars. Who knows, maybe Perez would have beaten Rosberg, maybe not. But he would have been seen as a contender at least, while I very much doubt we'd be talking about Hamilton being he best of his generation

edit: crappy iPhone autocorrect
Does our perception of Bottas change now he's driving for Mercedes?

Alonso is still highly touted despite driving crappy cars, all that changes for Hamilton is that his stats are not as impressive, Mercedes chased Hamilton because they saw him as being one of the best which Perez isn't.

Alonso being talked about still being the best of his generation despite the cars he drives yet for Hamilton he needed a dominant car to be considered the best of his generation is in part how you see Hamilton.
Did our perception of Rosberg change from 2014 onwards?

Hamilton would always be talked about as being good and I don't think that's even been up for debate. The point is solely that the last few years have coloured people's judgments because of the huge machinery advantage he's had. There have been a number of people, after all, who have questioned Alonso's position in relation to the top drivers currently for precisely that reason
As far back as 2007 Rosberg was rated as a top 6 driver and was short listed to replace Alonso at McLaren but he turned them down, then again in 2009 still a highly rated driver was signed by Mercedes in 2010.

After 2014 his rating hardly changed from being a top 6 driver and not much more, same with Bottas really, is Kimi highly rated because he drives a Ferrari?

Then expanding on that Rosberg got absolutely no credit for beating Schumacher and even got lambasted for his level of performance to being close as equal to him in 2012.

I can only say that in regards to Rosberg some would look to rubbish him because then Hamilton doesn't look as good, that's how these things tend to work when you look not to rate certain drivers.
well, below is a comment I made on Rosberg before Lewis was even a twinkle in Mercedes' eye, so I'm fairly confident my view on him has nothing to do with Hamilton:

http://forum.planet-f1.com/viewtopic.ph ... us#p157179

Rosberg never had a massive reputation before 2014. Good, maybe, but not exactly wow. Quite similar to Bottas, I'd say.

Are you saying that we would be having this debate now if Hamilton had't been driving a Mercedes these last few years?

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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by tootsie323 »

pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:They clearly had to go down a different route to appease Button.
Sure they did. But in setup, not development. And as I recall they recovered by going back to the setup baseline that Hamilton originally used to get them back on track. Which again is different to them listening to Hamilton - it's not like he was giving them instructions on what to do
That basically doesn't change what was said about Button leading McLaren down a garden path, cars obviously get changed to suit drivers.
It completely changes it when you talk about development paths and infer that a driver is directing this. I know you know that development and setup are two completely different things
I would say that set up is something you can change during a race weekend whereas development can't, Button sent McLaren down the development garden path.
That is according to a source from the podcast you shared a link to. One poster has suggested an alternative:
mas wrote:McLaren was at fault that season. Basically Lewis and Jenson had different brake/cooling systems during an in season update and Jenson's was faulty. They did not realize it at the time and Jenson started playing with his setup to get round the excessive wear he was getting which didn't work. Eventually they sorted the cooling and Jenson used Lewis setup as a starting point to get back to competitiveness. This is why Jenson's mid 2012 was so dodgy...
Jenson's results took a turn for the worse between China and Bahrain; the races one week apart. If a driver is able to lead its team down the development garden path in that space of time, he must be pretty special...
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Zoue
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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by Zoue »

pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote: That basically doesn't change what was said about Button leading McLaren down a garden path, cars obviously get changed to suit drivers.
It completely changes it when you talk about development paths and infer that a driver is directing this. I know you know that development and setup are two completely different things
I would say that set up is something you can change during a race weekend whereas development can't, Button sent McLaren down the development garden path.
I don't think that's true. Nor is it true that they "listened" to Hamilton for their development. This seems to me to be 100% speculation.

It's documented that Button struggled with his setup choices, which differed to Hamilton's. But I don't recall anything that says that he led any car development, or that Hamilton subsequently stepped in and the team only became successful once they listened to him. I think you are giving the drivers far too much credit here. All that happened was that Button set his car up differently but made some poor choices. Once he used Hamilton's setup as a base, he started showing immediate improvement. That is not car development

Button confirmed that the start point for this effort will be to work from Lewis Hamilton’s set up and then evolve from there, “The fist thing you do is set the car up like the other one and that’s how we’ll do it initially,” he said. “I won’t be as quick as him on those settings but then we can work from there and find a set up that works for me.”

https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2012/06/ ... tons-form/
I'm sure I read an article were it talked about the 2 cars converging to create a car that both drivers could drive competitively?
You think they had two parallel development paths?

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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by kleefton »

Button flat out hated the 2012 car, called it his "worst Mclaren". After Lewis left for the 2013 season Mclaren completely changed the design philosophy of the car and produced a complete dog. No one is saying the driver can design a car, but you must be extremely short sighted if you don't think that the driver influences the direction of development of a car. To use simple examples; if a driver says to his engineer that I need more overall rear grip, the engineer's input will undoubtedly lead a design of the car so that it gets more overall grip at the rear, if a driver feels he needs more front grip, then the car will be fundamentally developped to have more overall front grip. Simple as that. It is not that difficult a concept to understand and it makes perfect sense. When Hamilton arrived at Mercedes, he always talked about how the Mercedes was designed around Michael and how he would change that.

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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by ob1kenobi.23 »

According to Niki, not only is Lewis the best of his generation but the best ever.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formul ... Lauda.html
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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by Blake »

What would you expect from an MB official though, my friend?
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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by F1Oz »

Lewis is a great driver - but not IMO the greatest - that accolade is still with others. He's benefitted from having dominant cars, couldn't beat Nico last year (and while there was some bad luck for him, I just don't rate NR as highly as others who've driven over the last 20 years)

While I have issues with some of the championships he won - and some of the tactics in individual races - I still rate Schumacher more highly than Lewis for his career - although Lewis still has some years presumably to go.

And it's hard to judge versus the 50s-70s when driving was seriously dangerous, where a mistake could mean death, where the driver aids were not at the same level and where the drivers truly made a difference - and that's why Fangio for me remains the best ever (to date)

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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by KingVoid »

F1Oz wrote:He's benefitted from having dominant cars,
You could easily make the case that Lewis won 2008 with an inferior car.

However, the drivers in the best car were mostly underwhelming.

For instance, if a Prime Vettel or Prime Alonso was driving that F2008, I don't even think Lewis would have had a sniff at the WDC.

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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Blake wrote:What would you expect from an MB official though, my friend?

Niki says everything is best ever, worst ever, most dangerous ever, greatest ever etc. It's just the way he talks.

Edit - I actually think is Lewis greater the Niki a more interesting conversation than is Lewis the greatest ever. Probably both fighting over the final spots in my top 10.

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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by Centauri »

For me? Alonso.

He's just relentless, consistently one of the best starters on the grid, one of the best wheel-to-wheel racers, best hard-chargers, best attackers, best defenders. He's the complete package.

Aside from his 2007 shenanigans, I always saw this in him and admired him, but his 2012 season in that ridiculously poor Ferrari, almost taking title at the last race, and with teammate Massa trailing a lowly 7th in the championship with less than half his points - that truly sealed it for me.

The only man who comes close is Hamilton. And he comes very, very close. Maybe even on par.

Vettel? Nope. We've seen him do many things to indicate he is not on the same level as those above. Vettel is quick, yes, but no quicker than Rosberg. He's had inferior teammates and, when challenged by a truly top-tier driver (Ricciardo), his weaknesses were outlined. If you want any more evidence, you need only look at how Alonso dismantled Raikkonen while they were teammates. So do we think Raikkonen has improved since then? Nah, I don't. Vettel simply isn't as good as Alonso... this is the truth of the matter.

I've no doubt that in the hands of Alonso, that Ferrari would look very much the best car outright this year.

But I'm getting away from the topic of conversation. When you weigh up that Hamilton is on par with Alonso in terms of ability, but has all the accomplishments that Alonso has missed due to poor career decisions, then yes, he probably is the best of his generation. Quite easily.

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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by F1Oz »

Centauri wrote:For me? Alonso.

He's just relentless, consistently one of the best starters on the grid, one of the best wheel-to-wheel racers, best hard-chargers, best attackers, best defenders. He's the complete package.

Aside from his 2007 shenanigans, I always saw this in him and admired him, but his 2012 season in that ridiculously poor Ferrari, almost taking title at the last race, and with teammate Massa trailing a lowly 7th in the championship with less than half his points - that truly sealed it for me.

The only man who comes close is Hamilton. And he comes very, very close. Maybe even on par.

Vettel? Nope. We've seen him do many things to indicate he is not on the same level as those above. Vettel is quick, yes, but no quicker than Rosberg. He's had inferior teammates and, when challenged by a truly top-tier driver (Ricciardo), his weaknesses were outlined. If you want any more evidence, you need only look at how Alonso dismantled Raikkonen while they were teammates. So do we think Raikkonen has improved since then? Nah, I don't. Vettel simply isn't as good as Alonso... this is the truth of the matter.

I've no doubt that in the hands of Alonso, that Ferrari would look very much the best car outright this year.

But I'm getting away from the topic of conversation. When you weigh up that Hamilton is on par with Alonso in terms of ability, but has all the accomplishments that Alonso has missed due to poor career decisions, then yes, he probably is the best of his generation. Quite easily.
I suspect that Dan - and others would have done better than Seb if in the same car

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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by Zoue »

Centauri wrote:For me? Alonso.

He's just relentless, consistently one of the best starters on the grid, one of the best wheel-to-wheel racers, best hard-chargers, best attackers, best defenders. He's the complete package.

Aside from his 2007 shenanigans, I always saw this in him and admired him, but his 2012 season in that ridiculously poor Ferrari, almost taking title at the last race, and with teammate Massa trailing a lowly 7th in the championship with less than half his points - that truly sealed it for me.

The only man who comes close is Hamilton. And he comes very, very close. Maybe even on par.

Vettel? Nope. We've seen him do many things to indicate he is not on the same level as those above. Vettel is quick, yes, but no quicker than Rosberg. He's had inferior teammates and, when challenged by a truly top-tier driver (Ricciardo), his weaknesses were outlined. If you want any more evidence, you need only look at how Alonso dismantled Raikkonen while they were teammates. So do we think Raikkonen has improved since then? Nah, I don't. Vettel simply isn't as good as Alonso... this is the truth of the matter.

I've no doubt that in the hands of Alonso, that Ferrari would look very much the best car outright this year.

But I'm getting away from the topic of conversation. When you weigh up that Hamilton is on par with Alonso in terms of ability, but has all the accomplishments that Alonso has missed due to poor career decisions, then yes, he probably is the best of his generation. Quite easily.
BIB: Vettel was every bit as dominant over Kimi in their first year together as Alonso was. That's also the truth of the matter.

Not that I disagree that Alonso is the best.

lamo

Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by lamo »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Blake wrote:What would you expect from an MB official though, my friend?

Niki says everything is best ever, worst ever, most dangerous ever, greatest ever etc. It's just the way he talks.

Edit - I actually think is Lewis greater the Niki a more interesting conversation than is Lewis the greatest ever. Probably both fighting over the final spots in my top 10.
He is the Mercedes version of PF1's Mastercar

quere

Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by quere »

Blake wrote:What would you expect from an MB official though, my friend?
A sincerely held view, if, perhaps, a whisker overenthusiastic.

In some contrast to Scuderia Ferrari officials with their trademark perfidious Tweet after the Singapore debacle.

"VER took #Kimi7 out and then he went to #Seb5 #SingaporeGP"

Followed smartly by

"What we tweeted was a factual description of events. No need to speculate on this."

Pots and kettles, my friend. Pots and kettles.

:lol: :lol:

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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by pokerman »

Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote: Again, not the point. The claim was never about being better than Hamilton, or even equal to him. It's about the fact that our perceptions of the relative worths of the drivers would be different if they had been in each other's cars. Who knows, maybe Perez would have beaten Rosberg, maybe not. But he would have been seen as a contender at least, while I very much doubt we'd be talking about Hamilton being he best of his generation

edit: crappy iPhone autocorrect
Does our perception of Bottas change now he's driving for Mercedes?

Alonso is still highly touted despite driving crappy cars, all that changes for Hamilton is that his stats are not as impressive, Mercedes chased Hamilton because they saw him as being one of the best which Perez isn't.

Alonso being talked about still being the best of his generation despite the cars he drives yet for Hamilton he needed a dominant car to be considered the best of his generation is in part how you see Hamilton.
Did our perception of Rosberg change from 2014 onwards?

Hamilton would always be talked about as being good and I don't think that's even been up for debate. The point is solely that the last few years have coloured people's judgments because of the huge machinery advantage he's had. There have been a number of people, after all, who have questioned Alonso's position in relation to the top drivers currently for precisely that reason
As far back as 2007 Rosberg was rated as a top 6 driver and was short listed to replace Alonso at McLaren but he turned them down, then again in 2009 still a highly rated driver was signed by Mercedes in 2010.

After 2014 his rating hardly changed from being a top 6 driver and not much more, same with Bottas really, is Kimi highly rated because he drives a Ferrari?

Then expanding on that Rosberg got absolutely no credit for beating Schumacher and even got lambasted for his level of performance to being close as equal to him in 2012.

I can only say that in regards to Rosberg some would look to rubbish him because then Hamilton doesn't look as good, that's how these things tend to work when you look not to rate certain drivers.
well, below is a comment I made on Rosberg before Lewis was even a twinkle in Mercedes' eye, so I'm fairly confident my view on him has nothing to do with Hamilton:

http://forum.planet-f1.com/viewtopic.ph ... us#p157179

Rosberg never had a massive reputation before 2014. Good, maybe, but not exactly wow. Quite similar to Bottas, I'd say.

Are you saying that we would be having this debate now if Hamilton had't been driving a Mercedes these last few years?
You judge drivers by their non-descprit personalities?
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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by pokerman »

tootsie323 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:Sure they did. But in setup, not development. And as I recall they recovered by going back to the setup baseline that Hamilton originally used to get them back on track. Which again is different to them listening to Hamilton - it's not like he was giving them instructions on what to do
That basically doesn't change what was said about Button leading McLaren down a garden path, cars obviously get changed to suit drivers.
It completely changes it when you talk about development paths and infer that a driver is directing this. I know you know that development and setup are two completely different things
I would say that set up is something you can change during a race weekend whereas development can't, Button sent McLaren down the development garden path.
That is according to a source from the podcast you shared a link to. One poster has suggested an alternative:
mas wrote:McLaren was at fault that season. Basically Lewis and Jenson had different brake/cooling systems during an in season update and Jenson's was faulty. They did not realize it at the time and Jenson started playing with his setup to get round the excessive wear he was getting which didn't work. Eventually they sorted the cooling and Jenson used Lewis setup as a starting point to get back to competitiveness. This is why Jenson's mid 2012 was so dodgy...
Jenson's results took a turn for the worse between China and Bahrain; the races one week apart. If a driver is able to lead its team down the development garden path in that space of time, he must be pretty special...
The talk was after Canada and what was done to try and get Button back up to speed.
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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by pokerman »

Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote: It completely changes it when you talk about development paths and infer that a driver is directing this. I know you know that development and setup are two completely different things
I would say that set up is something you can change during a race weekend whereas development can't, Button sent McLaren down the development garden path.
I don't think that's true. Nor is it true that they "listened" to Hamilton for their development. This seems to me to be 100% speculation.

It's documented that Button struggled with his setup choices, which differed to Hamilton's. But I don't recall anything that says that he led any car development, or that Hamilton subsequently stepped in and the team only became successful once they listened to him. I think you are giving the drivers far too much credit here. All that happened was that Button set his car up differently but made some poor choices. Once he used Hamilton's setup as a base, he started showing immediate improvement. That is not car development

Button confirmed that the start point for this effort will be to work from Lewis Hamilton’s set up and then evolve from there, “The fist thing you do is set the car up like the other one and that’s how we’ll do it initially,” he said. “I won’t be as quick as him on those settings but then we can work from there and find a set up that works for me.”

https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2012/06/ ... tons-form/
I'm sure I read an article were it talked about the 2 cars converging to create a car that both drivers could drive competitively?
You think they had two parallel development paths?
How would that be 2 parallel development paths, that's trying to have a car that suits both drivers.
Last edited by pokerman on Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by pokerman »

kleefton wrote:Button flat out hated the 2012 car, called it his "worst Mclaren". After Lewis left for the 2013 season Mclaren completely changed the design philosophy of the car and produced a complete dog. No one is saying the driver can design a car, but you must be extremely short sighted if you don't think that the driver influences the direction of development of a car. To use simple examples; if a driver says to his engineer that I need more overall rear grip, the engineer's input will undoubtedly lead a design of the car so that it gets more overall grip at the rear, if a driver feels he needs more front grip, then the car will be fundamentally developped to have more overall front grip. Simple as that. It is not that difficult a concept to understand and it makes perfect sense. When Hamilton arrived at Mercedes, he always talked about how the Mercedes was designed around Michael and how he would change that.
This is exactly what Button said and then they produced the 2013 car and went into free fall after that.
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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by pokerman »

F1Oz wrote:Lewis is a great driver - but not IMO the greatest - that accolade is still with others. He's benefitted from having dominant cars, couldn't beat Nico last year (and while there was some bad luck for him, I just don't rate NR as highly as others who've driven over the last 20 years)

While I have issues with some of the championships he won - and some of the tactics in individual races - I still rate Schumacher more highly than Lewis for his career - although Lewis still has some years presumably to go.

And it's hard to judge versus the 50s-70s when driving was seriously dangerous, where a mistake could mean death, where the driver aids were not at the same level and where the drivers truly made a difference - and that's why Fangio for me remains the best ever (to date)
Well the thread doesn't describe him as the best ever.
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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by Blake »

pokerman wrote:
F1Oz wrote:Lewis is a great driver - but not IMO the greatest - that accolade is still with others. He's benefitted from having dominant cars, couldn't beat Nico last year (and while there was some bad luck for him, I just don't rate NR as highly as others who've driven over the last 20 years)

While I have issues with some of the championships he won - and some of the tactics in individual races - I still rate Schumacher more highly than Lewis for his career - although Lewis still has some years presumably to go.

And it's hard to judge versus the 50s-70s when driving was seriously dangerous, where a mistake could mean death, where the driver aids were not at the same level and where the drivers truly made a difference - and that's why Fangio for me remains the best ever (to date)
Well the thread doesn't describe him as the best ever.

Well, that settles it then. End of discussion for him since the ultimate authority, a PF1 thread, doesn't describe him as the best ever. My don't we rate ourselves in elite company!
:lol:
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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by Zoue »

pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote: I would say that set up is something you can change during a race weekend whereas development can't, Button sent McLaren down the development garden path.
I don't think that's true. Nor is it true that they "listened" to Hamilton for their development. This seems to me to be 100% speculation.

It's documented that Button struggled with his setup choices, which differed to Hamilton's. But I don't recall anything that says that he led any car development, or that Hamilton subsequently stepped in and the team only became successful once they listened to him. I think you are giving the drivers far too much credit here. All that happened was that Button set his car up differently but made some poor choices. Once he used Hamilton's setup as a base, he started showing immediate improvement. That is not car development

Button confirmed that the start point for this effort will be to work from Lewis Hamilton’s set up and then evolve from there, “The fist thing you do is set the car up like the other one and that’s how we’ll do it initially,” he said. “I won’t be as quick as him on those settings but then we can work from there and find a set up that works for me.”

https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2012/06/ ... tons-form/
I'm sure I read an article were it talked about the 2 cars converging to create a car that both drivers could drive competitively?
You think they had two parallel development paths?
How would that be 2 parallel development paths, that's trying to have a car that suits both drivers.
two development paths running at the same time? What would they converge from, then?

You appear to be mixing setup and development

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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by mas »

They had different brakes and Jenson's did not initially have adequate cooling which led to his performance problems. I will dig out the link.

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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by Zoue »

pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote: Does our perception of Bottas change now he's driving for Mercedes?

Alonso is still highly touted despite driving crappy cars, all that changes for Hamilton is that his stats are not as impressive, Mercedes chased Hamilton because they saw him as being one of the best which Perez isn't.

Alonso being talked about still being the best of his generation despite the cars he drives yet for Hamilton he needed a dominant car to be considered the best of his generation is in part how you see Hamilton.
Did our perception of Rosberg change from 2014 onwards?

Hamilton would always be talked about as being good and I don't think that's even been up for debate. The point is solely that the last few years have coloured people's judgments because of the huge machinery advantage he's had. There have been a number of people, after all, who have questioned Alonso's position in relation to the top drivers currently for precisely that reason
As far back as 2007 Rosberg was rated as a top 6 driver and was short listed to replace Alonso at McLaren but he turned them down, then again in 2009 still a highly rated driver was signed by Mercedes in 2010.

After 2014 his rating hardly changed from being a top 6 driver and not much more, same with Bottas really, is Kimi highly rated because he drives a Ferrari?

Then expanding on that Rosberg got absolutely no credit for beating Schumacher and even got lambasted for his level of performance to being close as equal to him in 2012.

I can only say that in regards to Rosberg some would look to rubbish him because then Hamilton doesn't look as good, that's how these things tend to work when you look not to rate certain drivers.
well, below is a comment I made on Rosberg before Lewis was even a twinkle in Mercedes' eye, so I'm fairly confident my view on him has nothing to do with Hamilton:

http://forum.planet-f1.com/viewtopic.ph ... us#p157179

Rosberg never had a massive reputation before 2014. Good, maybe, but not exactly wow. Quite similar to Bottas, I'd say.

Are you saying that we would be having this debate now if Hamilton had't been driving a Mercedes these last few years?
You judge drivers by their non-descprit personalities?
what part of that was about his personality?

Point is I disproved your insinuation that my position on Rosberg is linked to my view on Hamilton. I've never found Rosberg special and the point about him being anonymous, which I further elaborated on in that post, was that you wouldn't know he was there half the time. As in, he never did anything noteworthy.

I realise you tend to interpret everything through a Hamilton-shaped lens but sometimes people may have opinions on things which have nothing to do with him, as strange as that may seem to you.

Anyway, back to my question..?

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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by Zoue »

quere wrote:
Blake wrote:What would you expect from an MB official though, my friend?
A sincerely held view, if, perhaps, a whisker overenthusiastic.

In some contrast to Scuderia Ferrari officials with their trademark perfidious Tweet after the Singapore debacle.

"VER took #Kimi7 out and then he went to #Seb5 #SingaporeGP"

Followed smartly by

"What we tweeted was a factual description of events. No need to speculate on this."

Pots and kettles, my friend. Pots and kettles.

:lol: :lol:
You do realise what you wrote actually endorses Blake's question, don't you? Teams will rarely, if ever, be impartial where their own drivers are concerned. Blake wasn't saying (or even hinting) that Ferrari never did it, so your pot and kettle reference is a little misplaced

quere

Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by quere »

Zoue wrote: You do realise what you wrote actually endorses Blake's question, don't you? Teams will rarely, if ever, be impartial where their own drivers are concerned. Blake wasn't saying (or even hinting) that Ferrari never did it, so your pot and kettle reference is a little misplaced
Thank you, sir. I draw to your attention the aphorism frequently (and incorrectly) attributed to Voltaire: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by ALESI »

Hamilton was awesome this morning, fastest in P2...

Never mind that he was one of only 5 cars to take the track, never mind that none of those other 5 cars was ever going to be faster, no Lewis was 'brilliant'.

:uhoh:
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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

ALESI wrote:Hamilton was awesome this morning, fastest in P2...

Never mind that he was one of only 5 cars to take the track, never mind that none of those other 5 cars was ever going to be faster, no Lewis was 'brilliant'.

:uhoh:
Given that the previous post to yours in this thread was 5 days ago, no one could have possibly made that claim in here or used it as a justification of the thread's thesis.

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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by sandman1347 »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
ALESI wrote:Hamilton was awesome this morning, fastest in P2...

Never mind that he was one of only 5 cars to take the track, never mind that none of those other 5 cars was ever going to be faster, no Lewis was 'brilliant'.

:uhoh:
Given that the previous post to yours in this thread was 5 days ago, no one could have possibly made that claim in here or used it as a justification of the thread's thesis.
He does seem pretty upset about that practice session doesn't he?

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