Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

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Blake
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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by Blake »

Pullrod wrote: t.
Few of you have your eyes and ears wide open so my words will fall on deaf ears.
:lol:

Ah, so it is agree with your "words" or you have your eyes and ears closed.
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Pullrod
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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by Pullrod »

Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Badgeronimous wrote:History and opinion would look very different if in 2012 McLaren convinced Lewis to stay - on a lucrative 3 or 4yr deal. Christ, the very good but not great Rosberg could be a 3x Champion.

There are 3-4 elite drivers on the grid and it really all depends on where they are at a given time. Hamilton has found himself in arguably the best ever seat in F1 history. No driver in history has had a car that dominant for that period of 60+ races.

Not a diss on Lewis, he is an all time great, but there are a few other drivers who could have amounted similar stats if the same position fell to them
I am afraid it is not how it works.
Mercedes of today(fans, team, Project One) is exactly what McLaren could have been if Ron Dennis played his cards right.
Hamilton's move to Mercedes was the signal McLaren was officially dead and any good engineer would want to drive for the best.

Do you remember Mercedes website/Merchandising/Public Relations before Hamilton went there? I bet you don't. It was exactly like their cars on track. Rubbish.
Mercedes built the best engine and they wanted the best driver(not only on the track but with the media/fans too) to replace Schumacher.

Many years from now people will talk about the disaster McLaren made by not retaining Hamilton. It is telling they(McLaren) have scored 0 poles and 0 wins since he left the house despite having a Mercedes engine for the years 2013 and 2014(People often forget this little fact).

Hamilton is a winner, the kind of guy who is born "lucky" so that success will come wherever he goes. You will be a fool(a big one) if you bet against him not winning anymore.
Who is betting on him not winning anymore?
People assume with Hamilton still in McLaren he would have scored 0 wins, 0 poles and 0 championships between the years 2013 - 2017. UNLIKELY(very)
1) A "secret" test for Honda could have been made.
2) He could have joined Rosberg in Mercedes.
3) They could have ditched Honda sooner(for a Mercedes)


I am not sure the Honda deal would have been made the way it was or Mercedes would have had the "power" they had once they snatched Hamilton from McLaren.
You may not like it, but Hamilton is the only Megastar on today track, much like Valentino Rossi in MotoGp so where they go is important for the SPORT.

I rarely use the word "best" for Hamilton because I don't feel it is necessary since it is obvious!. He is a born genius, an artist. The kind of guy that changes and transcends the sport and who people will remember for a very very very long time.
Sorry, not trying to be funny but don't quite understand your post. It looks to me like you are suggesting the following:
  • 1. Lewis would have overcome the car deficiencies and had wins and poles (and titles!) had he remained at McLaren.
    2. His presence would have changed the way McLaren dealt with Honda and Hamilton would have guided them to do some secret testing with Honda fir4st
    3. This is what happened, so unclear why this is listed as "could?"
    4. Hamilton would have had a hand in engine supplier decisions and guided McLaren to drop Honda sooner than they have done
Again, sorry if I've gotten the wrong end of the stick, but this is how it reads to me. Would you confirm?
Folks, Alonso is on the wrong side of the grid and he doesn't "pull" (and neither do the other guys) like Hamilton. Hamilton is worth much more for the Sport than Alonso/Vettel/Verstappen/Ricciardo and will find himself in favorable conditions to win and achieve success.
When was that 2 years ago? I wrote that Alonso signing for McLaren was the beginning of the end for him. Am I Nostradamus?

No way in hell would Hamilton have spent 3 years of his career at the back of the grid.

Zoue
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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by Zoue »

Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
I am afraid it is not how it works.
Mercedes of today(fans, team, Project One) is exactly what McLaren could have been if Ron Dennis played his cards right.
Hamilton's move to Mercedes was the signal McLaren was officially dead and any good engineer would want to drive for the best.

Do you remember Mercedes website/Merchandising/Public Relations before Hamilton went there? I bet you don't. It was exactly like their cars on track. Rubbish.
Mercedes built the best engine and they wanted the best driver(not only on the track but with the media/fans too) to replace Schumacher.

Many years from now people will talk about the disaster McLaren made by not retaining Hamilton. It is telling they(McLaren) have scored 0 poles and 0 wins since he left the house despite having a Mercedes engine for the years 2013 and 2014(People often forget this little fact).

Hamilton is a winner, the kind of guy who is born "lucky" so that success will come wherever he goes. You will be a fool(a big one) if you bet against him not winning anymore.
Who is betting on him not winning anymore?
People assume with Hamilton still in McLaren he would have scored 0 wins, 0 poles and 0 championships between the years 2013 - 2017. UNLIKELY(very)
1) A "secret" test for Honda could have been made.
2) He could have joined Rosberg in Mercedes.
3) They could have ditched Honda sooner(for a Mercedes)


I am not sure the Honda deal would have been made the way it was or Mercedes would have had the "power" they had once they snatched Hamilton from McLaren.
You may not like it, but Hamilton is the only Megastar on today track, much like Valentino Rossi in MotoGp so where they go is important for the SPORT.

I rarely use the word "best" for Hamilton because I don't feel it is necessary since it is obvious!. He is a born genius, an artist. The kind of guy that changes and transcends the sport and who people will remember for a very very very long time.
Sorry, not trying to be funny but don't quite understand your post. It looks to me like you are suggesting the following:
  • 1. Lewis would have overcome the car deficiencies and had wins and poles (and titles!) had he remained at McLaren.
    2. His presence would have changed the way McLaren dealt with Honda and Hamilton would have guided them to do some secret testing with Honda fir4st
    3. This is what happened, so unclear why this is listed as "could?"
    4. Hamilton would have had a hand in engine supplier decisions and guided McLaren to drop Honda sooner than they have done
Again, sorry if I've gotten the wrong end of the stick, but this is how it reads to me. Would you confirm?
Folks, Alonso is on the wrong side of the grid and he doesn't "pull" (and neither do the other guys) like Hamilton. Hamilton is worth much more for the Sport than Alonso/Vettel/Verstappen/Ricciardo and will find himself in favorable conditions to win and achieve success.
When was that 2 years ago? I wrote that Alonso signing for McLaren was the beginning of the end for him. Am I Nostradamus?

No way in hell would Hamilton have spent 3 years of his career at the back of the grid.
Sometimes it's out of a driver's hands, to be fair. Few would have anticipated Alonso being at the back of the grid for three years. And, whatever you may think of him relative to Hamilton, he's still considered a top driver by most.

But regardless of their "pull," which is a somewhat different topic, are the points above correct? You didn't quite answer

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tootsie323
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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by tootsie323 »

I'm going to respond to a few points raised by Pullrod (these are not his direct quotes, by the way):

- Hamilton would have been very unlikely to have had zero wins, poles, championships in the McLaren between 2013-17.
- The McLaren-Honda deal may well have been made differently had Hamilton been there.
- Mercedes would not have had so much "power" without Hamilton being on board.
- Alonso has less "pull" than Hamilton, who is worth more to the sport than him and the likes of Vettel / Riccardo / Verstappen.

Hamilton may have managed to snatch the odd pole and / or win in the McLaren between 2013 and 14 but it would be a rarity and I do not see that he would have been a championship contender. Edit: not even worth mentioning 2015-17...
I think that you overstate the influence that Hamilton would have had on the direction of constructors / manufacturers.
I'd generally agree that Hamilton is the most marketable of the current drivers but I wouldn't go as far as to suggest that the likes of Alonso would be a mere second choice.

I'd argue that he is the most naturally talented driver at the moment, and that his image is a massive boost both for the sport and the Mercedes brand. I just don't think that he - or any individual driver, for that matter - has enough influence to determine the development direction of a team.
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Blinky McSquinty
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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

Here's a little fractured fairy tale many can relate to.

Once upon a time my uncle Ted visited our family regularly, and was always wonderful with all of us kids. He was patient, loving, protective, attentive, and always brought constant happiness and merriment. But he drank, and when the sun dropped and it was time for him to go home, he always drove home very drunk.

Was Ted a good guy or a bad guy?

That's the thing, a person is made up of different things. In Ted's case, his personality scored a perfect 10. But his behavior (as an irresponsible citizen and drunk driver) was a big fail. Personality and behavior, two completely separate things.

And when I examine any driver, this is how I work, I break down their individual parts instead of just looking at the surface. It gets much more complicated in Formula One because there are many different factors that affect the bottom line, what most view in Wiki, just results. If you are not in the right car, it does not matter if you can walk on water. There are team politics, more powerful than many believe. This is a long list and every factor does affect the bottom line. Some drivers crack under pressure, while others (Jimmy Johnson in NASCAR) becomes an almost perfect machine the more pressure you put on him.

I will begin by stating that IMO Hamilton is the most naturally talented driver of his generation. Put him in a London double decker bus and he will drive the wheels off that thang.

Although having immense talent is a job requirement in Formula One, other factors also come into play. Does the driver put in the hard work and effort to hone his craft, does he do the correct mental preparation so he always brings his "A" game for the entire race weekend? Is he a positive influence on a team and a team-builder and motivator instead of a disruptive influence? How much relevant feedback does he give to his engineers?

Does he have enough technical proficiency to be able to contribute the car's setup, maybe even design? Many years ago Roger Penske had a gem in Mark Donohue, who was also an engineer. There was no other driver who could sort out a car better and quicker than Mark.

IMO racecraft is the driver's ability to deal with other factors than just the track itself. Other drivers, weather (Button gets a gold star on that one), strategy, even anticipating changing conditions are part of racecraft. Closely coupled with racecraft is the ability to make correct risk versus reward decisions.

The business side side of things was also mentioned in this thread, and it is relevant. Yes, Formula One is definitely a business. But it is also an entertainment medium. Maintaining a positive public optic and also being able to cater to sponsor's wishes does matter. A very good comparison is between Hamilton and the reigning Formula One champion, Rosberg. Rosberg always looks like he stepped off the cover of GQ magazine, while Hamilton's fashion choices are more hip-hop. Different public perceptions cater to different target audiences.

Bringing this little TLDR post to a conclusion, Hamilton is the most naturally talented driver of his generation, but he falls short in just about every other category.
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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by Herb Tarlik »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:

Bringing this little TLDR post to a conclusion, Hamilton is the most naturally talented driver of his generation, but he falls short in just about every other category.
Totally disagree. I have lost track of how many times Hamilton gives all the credit to his team after races. Very often on the radio the first thing you hear after every win is a huge dose of credit to his team. I never hear him being egotistical at all taking all the credit for his wins.

I see him as someone who inspires his team. Delivering so many wins, freely giving credit to the rest of the team, has to drive his engineers to work 110%.

I completely disagree with your assessment.

WHoff78
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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by WHoff78 »

Some believe he has had the outright pace since his first season in F1. He has been developing ever since and few can argue that he has really ironed out his tendency to not show up for races as well as developing a better judgement of when to be cautious and when to go all out. Now he is accumulating the sort of stats that some people, not everyone, would expect to see before considering him in that sort of company. Different people will place emphasis on different criteria and the more strings to his bow, the higher he will be considered in people's all time lists. I think this season and the next few will really be the defining years for him and Vettel though, assuming the top few cars continue to converge.

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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by KingVoid »

mas wrote:
KingVoid wrote:If Alonso had a career ending accident in the winter of 2007 (god forbid), how different we would be rating him now?

I actually think he'd be rated higher.
Why ? I think lower. His time after 2007 has proven he can drive any car fast and very close to its potential no matter how badly designed it is, a quality for which he is definitely now generally considered to be No.1. Sterling Moss never won a wdc but he is rated higher than Hawthorn who did so pure winning stats are not everything once you take into account the competitiveness of a driver's equipment during his career and team strategy decisions.

Alonso has made some silly decisions that have affected that e.g. leaving McLaren, not joining Red Bull, leaving Ferrari. Conceivably he could have had another five wdcs (1 McLaren, 4 Red Bull) to add to his current two with the possibility of a record breaking eighth this year with Ferrari if he had made different career decisions. I have great hopes that he gets it right next year and should be in a four way team battle next year for the wdc.
The legend of Alonso would become much greater. He would be remembered as the guy who ended Schumacher's domination, and beat him in roughly equal cars. Everyone would just assume that he'd go on win 5 WDC only because no one would have actually been able to see what happened after 2006.

He'd be like Gilles Villeneuve, but with actual achievements.

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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Herb Tarlik wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:

Bringing this little TLDR post to a conclusion, Hamilton is the most naturally talented driver of his generation, but he falls short in just about every other category.
Totally disagree. I have lost track of how many times Hamilton gives all the credit to his team after races. Very often on the radio the first thing you hear after every win is a huge dose of credit to his team. I never hear him being egotistical at all taking all the credit for his wins.

I see him as someone who inspires his team. Delivering so many wins, freely giving credit to the rest of the team, has to drive his engineers to work 110%.

I completely disagree with your assessment.
He does quickly become negative though when things go badly. I wouldn't say he was a particularly good backs against the wall leader.

Hamilton strikes me as a very kind person but he is often led by his emotions. He seems very in the moment.

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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

Herb Tarlik wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:

Bringing this little TLDR post to a conclusion, Hamilton is the most naturally talented driver of his generation, but he falls short in just about every other category.
Totally disagree. I have lost track of how many times Hamilton gives all the credit to his team after races. Very often on the radio the first thing you hear after every win is a huge dose of credit to his team. I never hear him being egotistical at all taking all the credit for his wins.

I see him as someone who inspires his team. Delivering so many wins, freely giving credit to the rest of the team, has to drive his engineers to work 110%.

I completely disagree with your assessment.
In which you have every right to disagree. Our opinions are driven by our perceptions, we are looking at him from two completely different viewpoints.
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sandman1347
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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by sandman1347 »

Ultimately, I go by this question: who would I pick to win if they were all in the same car? I've yet to see anyone look faster than Lewis in the same car (including Alonso). I've seen Alonso beaten out narrowly by Hamilton as a rookie and I've seen Vettel beaten out convincingly by Ricciardo. I've seen Hamilton lose to a teammate on points but never on pace. Ricciardo has been beating Max in the points but I've noticed that Max seems to have gained the upper-hand in terms of pace this year. To beat Hamilton in a season where reliability is even between the cars is something I don't see any of the other drivers doing right now. He actually makes very few mistakes and the notion of beating him by simply being more consistent is actually quite a tall order. In terms of top end performance ceiling, I think his is the highest.

lamo

Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by lamo »

Blake wrote:I do not see how it is that so many can think of Alonso being in a previous generation. Alonso is 36 years old, Lewis is 32. If I look at my family, but that standard me and my siblings cover 3 generations as there are 12 years between oldest and youngest. In my understanding, an example of a generation would be a son, father and grandfather as being 3 generations... all siblings would be of the same generaton.
that certainly would not be the criteria many on this thread are using. I am pretty sure that every four years does not define a new generation, however.

I don't think you can separate Alonso from this generation, though perhaps down the line, one can say that the real youngsters like Max are in a different generation, but not Lewis and Seb as I see it.
Normal life generations are completely different, a person lives on average 80 years. A long F1 career is 13-15 years but even that length is quite rare historically.

Alonso was in the sport 6 years before Hamilton and Vettel and those two are likely to go on maybe 4-5 years longer than him. Overall, Vettel/Hamiltons careers will likely have had Alonso racing against them just over half of it. I can see the logic to putting them together or apart.

Verstappen though is clearly a different generation to Alonso/Button/Raikkonen. Button raced for 17 season, only 2 against Verstappen when he was way past his peak. Alonso, Button and Raikkonen debuted a season apart. 2000 and 2001 - 15 years before Max.

The same as Schumacher and Senna, Michael raced Senna for 2.5 seasons in an 18 year career.

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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by Herb Tarlik »

sandman1347 wrote:Ultimately, I go by this question: who would I pick to win if they were all in the same car? I've yet to see anyone look faster than Lewis in the same car (including Alonso). I've seen Alonso beaten out narrowly by Hamilton as a rookie and I've seen Vettel beaten out convincingly by Ricciardo. I've seen Hamilton lose to a teammate on points but never on pace. Ricciardo has been beating Max in the points but I've noticed that Max seems to have gained the upper-hand in terms of pace this year. To beat Hamilton in a season where reliability is even between the cars is something I don't see any of the other drivers doing right now. He actually makes very few mistakes and the notion of beating him by simply being more consistent is actually quite a tall order. In terms of top end performance ceiling, I think his is the highest.
Well said Sandman. Very nicely noted.

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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by Siao7 »

Herb Tarlik wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:Ultimately, I go by this question: who would I pick to win if they were all in the same car? I've yet to see anyone look faster than Lewis in the same car (including Alonso). I've seen Alonso beaten out narrowly by Hamilton as a rookie and I've seen Vettel beaten out convincingly by Ricciardo. I've seen Hamilton lose to a teammate on points but never on pace. Ricciardo has been beating Max in the points but I've noticed that Max seems to have gained the upper-hand in terms of pace this year. To beat Hamilton in a season where reliability is even between the cars is something I don't see any of the other drivers doing right now. He actually makes very few mistakes and the notion of beating him by simply being more consistent is actually quite a tall order. In terms of top end performance ceiling, I think his is the highest.
Well said Sandman. Very nicely noted.
I agree as well. Alonso is very close, Vettel is more mistake prone. In the end of the day, very little difference between the three drivers, they are the creme de la creme of this era.

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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by Herb Tarlik »

Siao7 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:Ultimately, I go by this question: who would I pick to win if they were all in the same car? I've yet to see anyone look faster than Lewis in the same car (including Alonso). I've seen Alonso beaten out narrowly by Hamilton as a rookie and I've seen Vettel beaten out convincingly by Ricciardo. I've seen Hamilton lose to a teammate on points but never on pace. Ricciardo has been beating Max in the points but I've noticed that Max seems to have gained the upper-hand in terms of pace this year. To beat Hamilton in a season where reliability is even between the cars is something I don't see any of the other drivers doing right now. He actually makes very few mistakes and the notion of beating him by simply being more consistent is actually quite a tall order. In terms of top end performance ceiling, I think his is the highest.
Well said Sandman. Very nicely noted.
I agree as well. Alonso is very close, Vettel is more mistake prone. In the end of the day, very little difference between the three drivers, they are the creme de la creme of this era.
Vettel was absolutely thrashed by RIC at Red Bull so I would not put him anywhere near Hamilton or Alonso.

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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

Herb Tarlik wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:Ultimately, I go by this question: who would I pick to win if they were all in the same car? I've yet to see anyone look faster than Lewis in the same car (including Alonso). I've seen Alonso beaten out narrowly by Hamilton as a rookie and I've seen Vettel beaten out convincingly by Ricciardo. I've seen Hamilton lose to a teammate on points but never on pace. Ricciardo has been beating Max in the points but I've noticed that Max seems to have gained the upper-hand in terms of pace this year. To beat Hamilton in a season where reliability is even between the cars is something I don't see any of the other drivers doing right now. He actually makes very few mistakes and the notion of beating him by simply being more consistent is actually quite a tall order. In terms of top end performance ceiling, I think his is the highest.
Well said Sandman. Very nicely noted.
I agree as well. Alonso is very close, Vettel is more mistake prone. In the end of the day, very little difference between the three drivers, they are the creme de la creme of this era.
Vettel was absolutely thrashed by RIC at Red Bull so I would not put him anywhere near Hamilton or Alonso.
I personally think this was just a bad year from Vettel. Is there anyway Hamilton could be put up there with Alonso when he was beaten by Button in 2011? Sometimes drivers have bad seasons. I think Vettel has been far better every year since 2014. I think he is about the same level as Hamilton. I don't really know how to judge Alonso any more. It has been so long since he has been in a decent car. Until I see it, I'm not convinced he'll be up with the best any more. I'd better get prepared for many to disagree with me on this! :lol:

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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by kleefton »

sandman1347 wrote:Ultimately, I go by this question: who would I pick to win if they were all in the same car? I've yet to see anyone look faster than Lewis in the same car (including Alonso). I've seen Alonso beaten out narrowly by Hamilton as a rookie and I've seen Vettel beaten out convincingly by Ricciardo. I've seen Hamilton lose to a teammate on points but never on pace. Ricciardo has been beating Max in the points but I've noticed that Max seems to have gained the upper-hand in terms of pace this year. To beat Hamilton in a season where reliability is even between the cars is something I don't see any of the other drivers doing right now. He actually makes very few mistakes and the notion of beating him by simply being more consistent is actually quite a tall order. In terms of top end performance ceiling, I think his is the highest.

Yeah this is how i feel as well.

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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by Lotus49 »

Laz_T800 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Hamilton is currently in superb form but I still rate Alonso higher and I still don't find it a tough call.

I don't think Hamilton has had a season that compares to Alonso's best efforts yet, and if Alonso had been with Mercedes between 2014-16 I don't see him losing a multitude of wins to Rosberg. Alonso dominates team mates.

So yeah, I would still put Alonso ahead of Hamilton and solidly in the top ten of all time. Probably at number 7. That being said, Hamilton probably does make my top 10 these days as well.
People give an awful, even crazy amount of credit to Alonso for being so much better than Massa.
Yeah he's a good bit better than Massa as I believe Lewis and Vettel would have been also.

I really missed the domination in 2007.
Is that because you can only dominate if you are vastly superior to the other driver?
Massa isn't Alonso's only team mate?

And obviously yes... It would be pretty hard to dominate a team mate who was as good as you?
Indeed.
If however you are going to use seasons like 2010 and 2012 as a barometer to judge Alonso against you have to take his team mate into account.
When you look at the list of Alonso's team mates he's dominated he was head and shoulders above them as drivers and therefore bound to dominate them.
Even this year people have been waxing lyrical about his performances.
Take into account that Vandoorne is a rookie, had a different car to Alonso for a lot of his races and that he himself admitted was driving like a GP2 driver and hadn't made the adjustment to F1 and then it just looks like Alonso is doing what any of the top 5 drivers would be doing.
If the comparison was with a proven top 5 driver like Ricciardo or Vettel for instance then I could maybe understand the hype.

All that aside I do firmly believe he's very much in the argument for the best of his generation.
I just don't agree with those who think it's not even an argument.
They've alternated upgrades at McLaren if there's only 1, same as with Button.
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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by Lotus49 »

I generally switch between Alonso and Lewis depending on mood, lol. They were close as team mates and managed similar results against their common team mate Button. Similar win percentage in Q and avg gap(Both around 2.5ths I believe) and I think they are the two most consistent performers over the years and different situations, maybe a slight edge to Alonso on that but a slight edge on pace to Lewis to balance it out.

Luck would probably decide any team mate battle but I think the type of car they drove might play a role too. If it was 2014-16 I think Lewis edges it but if it was this year or a 2013 say, I think Alonso edges it through consistency(Dealing with the car when it's misbehaving).

Stats don't really mean much to me but I understand others holding a different view. Seb can be up there with them pretty easily when he's got a top car but I think he gets too frustrated when a bit further back and slips a bit but is very strong in the team environment and diligent with his duties like we saw with the Pirelli bosses's comments in the start of the season. Is the youngest so can still do special things to change my mind.

I have a feeling Max will end up putting them all in the shade to be honest. His rate of development is scary. He had two weaknesses last year with his starts and one lap pace and in one winter has surpassed even Alonso imo as the best starter this year and one lap specialist and a lot if people's pick as quickest qualifier Dan has been smoked in qualifying I'm afraid to say.

Unless Leclerc turns out to be the second coming Max is going to be smashing records left right and centre.
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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by WHoff78 »

Are Alonso and verstappens starts that much better than the other top drivers or are they just in a position where they can take more risk?

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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by Zoue »

WHoff78 wrote:Are Alonso and verstappens starts that much better than the other top drivers or are they just in a position where they can take more risk?
How much risk is involved in getting the perfect clutch / wheelspin balance, though?

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Lotus49
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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by Lotus49 »

WHoff78 wrote:Are Alonso and verstappens starts that much better than the other top drivers or are they just in a position where they can take more risk?
They're much better as far as I can tell. Both pretty consistently with launch off the line and in positioning through lap 1. They probably do take more risks but that's a by product of being surrounded by more cars that you have to go round 2/3 abreast some situations.

They don't get mugged off the line nearly as much as the other top drivers. Seb and Lewis are pretty similar and Dan a bit behind imo.
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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by Exediron »

Pullrod wrote:People assume with Hamilton still in McLaren he would have scored 0 wins, 0 poles and 0 championships between the years [/b]2013[/b] - 2017. UNLIKELY(very)
1) A "secret" test for Honda could have been made.
2) He could have joined Rosberg in Mercedes.
3) They could have ditched Honda sooner(for a Mercedes)

I am not sure the Honda deal would have been made the way it was or Mercedes would have had the "power" they had once they snatched Hamilton from McLaren.
You may not like it, but Hamilton is the only Megastar on today track, much like Valentino Rossi in MotoGp so where they go is important for the SPORT.

I rarely use the word "best" for Hamilton because I don't feel it is necessary since it is obvious!. He is a born genius, an artist. The kind of guy that changes and transcends the sport and who people will remember for a very very very long time.
This is one of the more bizarre posts I've read in a while. Are you actually claiming that Hamilton would have been able to win a championship in any of the 2013-17 McLarens?

It's remotely possible he would have taken pole or won a race in 2013. That's it. There was absolutely no chance for a championship that year, and even less in any of the others. I don't care how much 'star power' you ascribe to Hamilton; it was never going to happen. As for your comparison to Rossi, how many championships has his star power netted him this decade? Ah yes, that would be zero. Quicker drivers on quicker bikes have taken the titles from him, and the fact that he's unquestionably MotoGP's biggest star has done absolutely nothing to stop it.

Star power doesn't win championships; the best team does. Hamilton's status as a superstar got him into Mercedes, but that's all.
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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by lamo »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I personally think this was just a bad year from Vettel. Is there anyway Hamilton could be put up there with Alonso when he was beaten by Button in 2011? Sometimes drivers have bad seasons. I think Vettel has been far better every year since 2014. I think he is about the same level as Hamilton. I don't really know how to judge Alonso any more. It has been so long since he has been in a decent car. Until I see it, I'm not convinced he'll be up with the best any more. I'd better get prepared for many to disagree with me on this! :lol:
Alonso was matched by a rookie in 2007 and behind Trulli when he got sacked in 2004. He also got beat by Button on points (although fortuitously in 2015).

Hamilton was still quicker than Button in 2011. Ahead when both finished was 7-7, 3-3 in wins. Hamilton won in qualifying too. Hamilton had 6 races in which he had collisions that year and it ruined his year. His race craft was poor but his speed was always there mostly. In the first half of 2011 he actually comprehensively beat Button and he had many races he was miles ahead of Button through the entire year.

He also beat him comfortably in 2010. 10-4 when both finished. 2 of which were tyre gambles in the wet that JB made when behind Hamilton and they paid off. Another was Japan were Hamilton was 20 seconds ahead and developed a gearbox problem. 2012 was also Hamiltons strongest year against Button.

Vettel had the single year against Dan and wasn't quicker than him, only in the wet. He lost on everything, points, qualifying, ahead when both finished. Clean sweep. He also didn't have a single race he was a cut above Dan. Because it was only one year too its worse than losing say 1 season in 3 like Hamilton.

Also Vettels 2016 was nowhere near as good as his 2015. It was one of his worst seasons. He also had a poor first half to 2012, he was behind Webber and had won less races than him at mid season that year.

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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by Lotus49 »

lamo wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I personally think this was just a bad year from Vettel. Is there anyway Hamilton could be put up there with Alonso when he was beaten by Button in 2011? Sometimes drivers have bad seasons. I think Vettel has been far better every year since 2014. I think he is about the same level as Hamilton. I don't really know how to judge Alonso any more. It has been so long since he has been in a decent car. Until I see it, I'm not convinced he'll be up with the best any more. I'd better get prepared for many to disagree with me on this! :lol:
Alonso was matched by a rookie in 2007 and behind Trulli when he got sacked in 2004. He also got beat by Button on points (although fortuitously in 2015).

Hamilton was still quicker than Button in 2011. Ahead when both finished was 7-7, 3-3 in wins. Hamilton won in qualifying too. Hamilton had 6 races in which he had collisions that year and it ruined his year. His race craft was poor but his speed was always there mostly. In the first half of 2011 he actually comprehensively beat Button and he had many races he was miles ahead of Button through the entire year.

He also beat him comfortably in 2010. 10-4 when both finished. 2 of which were tyre gambles in the wet that JB made when behind Hamilton and they paid off. Another was Japan were Hamilton was 20 seconds ahead and developed a gearbox problem. 2012 was also Hamiltons strongest year against Button.

Vettel had the single year against Dan and wasn't quicker than him, only in the wet. He lost on everything, points, qualifying, ahead when both finished. Clean sweep. He also didn't have a single race he was a cut above Dan. Because it was only one year too its worse than losing say 1 season in 3 like Hamilton.

Also Vettels 2016 was nowhere near as good as his 2015. It was one of his worst seasons. He also had a poor first half to 2012, he was behind Webber and had won less races than him at mid season that year.
So was Alonso in 2015. Won Q 10-8, Won the H2H 4-2. Pace wasn't the problem but he ran into car issues on the tracks McLaren could score big on apart from Hungary. Monaco failures in Q and R and in the US the engine issue when he could have been fighting Perez for 5th after the SC killed him really for overhauling the points gap.
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by Exediron »

lamo wrote:Vettel had the single year against Dan and wasn't quicker than him, only in the wet. He lost on everything, points, qualifying, ahead when both finished. Clean sweep. He also didn't have a single race he was a cut above Dan. Because it was only one year too its worse than losing say 1 season in 3 like Hamilton.
I agree that his superior performances were mostly in the wet, but I do think there were a few races where he looked clearly better as well. Malaysia would be the first to occur to me; although Dan did DNF, I feel Seb had the measure of him anyway. Seb was also leading in Monaco when his engine failed, and he beat Dan in Singapore (although not by a large margin). In the wet he did look conclusively faster, but you already mentioned that.
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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by lamo »

Lotus49 wrote:
lamo wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I personally think this was just a bad year from Vettel. Is there anyway Hamilton could be put up there with Alonso when he was beaten by Button in 2011? Sometimes drivers have bad seasons. I think Vettel has been far better every year since 2014. I think he is about the same level as Hamilton. I don't really know how to judge Alonso any more. It has been so long since he has been in a decent car. Until I see it, I'm not convinced he'll be up with the best any more. I'd better get prepared for many to disagree with me on this! :lol:
Alonso was matched by a rookie in 2007 and behind Trulli when he got sacked in 2004. He also got beat by Button on points (although fortuitously in 2015).

Hamilton was still quicker than Button in 2011. Ahead when both finished was 7-7, 3-3 in wins. Hamilton won in qualifying too. Hamilton had 6 races in which he had collisions that year and it ruined his year. His race craft was poor but his speed was always there mostly. In the first half of 2011 he actually comprehensively beat Button and he had many races he was miles ahead of Button through the entire year.

He also beat him comfortably in 2010. 10-4 when both finished. 2 of which were tyre gambles in the wet that JB made when behind Hamilton and they paid off. Another was Japan were Hamilton was 20 seconds ahead and developed a gearbox problem. 2012 was also Hamiltons strongest year against Button.

Vettel had the single year against Dan and wasn't quicker than him, only in the wet. He lost on everything, points, qualifying, ahead when both finished. Clean sweep. He also didn't have a single race he was a cut above Dan. Because it was only one year too its worse than losing say 1 season in 3 like Hamilton.

Also Vettels 2016 was nowhere near as good as his 2015. It was one of his worst seasons. He also had a poor first half to 2012, he was behind Webber and had won less races than him at mid season that year.
So was Alonso in 2015. Won Q 10-8, Won the H2H 4-2. Pace wasn't the problem but he ran into car issues on the tracks McLaren could score big on apart from Hungary. Monaco failures in Q and R and in the US the engine issue when he could have been fighting Perez for 5th after the SC killed him really for overhauling the points gap.
Yes I agree that is why I put fortuitously , I was just pointing out to the OP who was suggesting 2011 ruled LH out. If that rules Hamilton out then all three of them are ruled out.

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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by Lotus49 »

Got you now lamo :thumbup:
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-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by lamo »

Exediron wrote:
lamo wrote:Vettel had the single year against Dan and wasn't quicker than him, only in the wet. He lost on everything, points, qualifying, ahead when both finished. Clean sweep. He also didn't have a single race he was a cut above Dan. Because it was only one year too its worse than losing say 1 season in 3 like Hamilton.
I agree that his superior performances were mostly in the wet, but I do think there were a few races where he looked clearly better as well. Malaysia would be the first to occur to me; although Dan did DNF, I feel Seb had the measure of him anyway. Seb was also leading in Monaco when his engine failed, and he beat Dan in Singapore (although not by a large margin). In the wet he did look conclusively faster, but you already mentioned that.
In all those races he was marginally better, like literally running directly ahead of DR. My point was, it wasn't like Vettel was inconsistent but on his day clearly better than Ricciardo. He was underwhelming all year, except for in the wet.

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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by bonecrasher »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:Here's a little fractured fairy tale many can relate to.

Once upon a time my uncle Ted visited our family regularly, and was always wonderful with all of us kids. He was patient, loving, protective, attentive, and always brought constant happiness and merriment. But he drank, and when the sun dropped and it was time for him to go home, he always drove home very drunk.

Was Ted a good guy or a bad guy?

That's the thing, a person is made up of different things. In Ted's case, his personality scored a perfect 10. But his behavior (as an irresponsible citizen and drunk driver) was a big fail. Personality and behavior, two completely separate things.

And when I examine any driver, this is how I work, I break down their individual parts instead of just looking at the surface. It gets much more complicated in Formula One because there are many different factors that affect the bottom line, what most view in Wiki, just results. If you are not in the right car, it does not matter if you can walk on water. There are team politics, more powerful than many believe. This is a long list and every factor does affect the bottom line. Some drivers crack under pressure, while others (Jimmy Johnson in NASCAR) becomes an almost perfect machine the more pressure you put on him.

I will begin by stating that IMO Hamilton is the most naturally talented driver of his generation. Put him in a London double decker bus and he will drive the wheels off that thang.

Although having immense talent is a job requirement in Formula One, other factors also come into play. Does the driver put in the hard work and effort to hone his craft, does he do the correct mental preparation so he always brings his "A" game for the entire race weekend? Is he a positive influence on a team and a team-builder and motivator instead of a disruptive influence? How much relevant feedback does he give to his engineers?

Does he have enough technical proficiency to be able to contribute the car's setup, maybe even design? Many years ago Roger Penske had a gem in Mark Donohue, who was also an engineer. There was no other driver who could sort out a car better and quicker than Mark.

IMO racecraft is the driver's ability to deal with other factors than just the track itself. Other drivers, weather (Button gets a gold star on that one), strategy, even anticipating changing conditions are part of racecraft. Closely coupled with racecraft is the ability to make correct risk versus reward decisions.

The business side side of things was also mentioned in this thread, and it is relevant. Yes, Formula One is definitely a business. But it is also an entertainment medium. Maintaining a positive public optic and also being able to cater to sponsor's wishes does matter. A very good comparison is between Hamilton and the reigning Formula One champion, Rosberg. Rosberg always looks like he stepped off the cover of GQ magazine, while Hamilton's fashion choices are more hip-hop. Different public perceptions cater to different target audiences.

Bringing this little TLDR post to a conclusion, Hamilton is the most naturally talented driver of his generation, but he falls short in just about every other category.
I think you are wrong about Hamilton's technical ability. This is a guy with over 100 podiums in just what, 202 starts. That's a strike rate of over 50%. I don't think that you can achieve that feat if you can't even set up your car

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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by Exediron »

bonecrasher wrote:I think you are wrong about Hamilton's technical ability. This is a guy with over 100 podiums in just what, 202 starts. That's a strike rate of over 50%. I don't think that you can achieve that feat if you can't even set up your car
Hamilton is an impressive driver, but raw statistics like this have very little to do with it. Between 2014 and 2016, Jolyon Palmer would probably have got about 40-50 podiums from 59 starts.
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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by sandman1347 »

Exediron wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:I think you are wrong about Hamilton's technical ability. This is a guy with over 100 podiums in just what, 202 starts. That's a strike rate of over 50%. I don't think that you can achieve that feat if you can't even set up your car
Hamilton is an impressive driver, but raw statistics like this have very little to do with it. Between 2014 and 2016, Jolyon Palmer would probably have got about 40-50 podiums from 59 starts.
I seriously doubt that. He can't seem to qualify within a second of his teammate these days. I think it's very easy to underestimate what hamilton and Rosberg contributed during those years. Both men pushed things to the limit and both are extremely fast.

All of the drivers high up in the record books have had dominant machinery for spells. While the lap time gap to the field was larger for Hamilton in 2014 and 2015 than it was for Schumacher and Vettel during their dominant years, Hamilton had a top-shelf teammate to compete against during that time while Schumacher and Vettel had #2 drivers that didn't challenge them. I think the dominant periods basically cancel out in this regard.

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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by oz_karter »

I think the 2014-2016 years have been extremely kind to Hamilton.

His McLaren years started off well, but he didn't appear to be dragging the car up the grid between 2009 and 2012 (unlike say Alonso was in at Ferrari).

Would Hamilton be even considered in this kind of thread as one of the best if he didn't jump ship at the right time? Probably not.

Had Alonso, Vettel or Ricciardo been in the Mercedes since 2014 I think they would have god status by now.

The same goes for Rosberg, he was beaten by Webber in the same car and I don't think he's regarded by anyone as one of the greats. However, he pulled a bunch of wins and a WDC in the Mercedes. He beat Hamilton in 2016 and was not too far off in 2014 and 2015.

I think the question should be "Is the Mercedes Hybrid the most successful F1 car of all time?".

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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by Laz_T800 »

Lotus49 wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Hamilton is currently in superb form but I still rate Alonso higher and I still don't find it a tough call.

I don't think Hamilton has had a season that compares to Alonso's best efforts yet, and if Alonso had been with Mercedes between 2014-16 I don't see him losing a multitude of wins to Rosberg. Alonso dominates team mates.

So yeah, I would still put Alonso ahead of Hamilton and solidly in the top ten of all time. Probably at number 7. That being said, Hamilton probably does make my top 10 these days as well.
People give an awful, even crazy amount of credit to Alonso for being so much better than Massa.
Yeah he's a good bit better than Massa as I believe Lewis and Vettel would have been also.

I really missed the domination in 2007.
Is that because you can only dominate if you are vastly superior to the other driver?

Massa isn't Alonso's only team mate?

And obviously yes... It would be pretty hard to dominate a team mate who was as good as you?
Indeed.
If however you are going to use seasons like 2010 and 2012 as a barometer to judge Alonso against you have to take his team mate into account.
When you look at the list of Alonso's team mates he's dominated he was head and shoulders above them as drivers and therefore bound to dominate them.
Even this year people have been waxing lyrical about his performances.
Take into account that Vandoorne is a rookie, had a different car to Alonso for a lot of his races and that he himself admitted was driving like a GP2 driver and hadn't made the adjustment to F1 and then it just looks like Alonso is doing what any of the top 5 drivers would be doing.
If the comparison was with a proven top 5 driver like Ricciardo or Vettel for instance then I could maybe understand the hype.

All that aside I do firmly believe he's very much in the argument for the best of his generation.
I just don't agree with those who think it's not even an argument.
They've alternated upgrades at McLaren if there's only 1, same as with Button.
Indeed. I said a different car not necessarily better.

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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by Zblogger »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:Here's a little fractured fairy tale many can relate to.

Once upon a time my uncle Ted visited our family regularly, and was always wonderful with all of us kids. He was patient, loving, protective, attentive, and always brought constant happiness and merriment. But he drank, and when the sun dropped and it was time for him to go home, he always drove home very drunk.

Was Ted a good guy or a bad guy?

That's the thing, a person is made up of different things. In Ted's case, his personality scored a perfect 10. But his behavior (as an irresponsible citizen and drunk driver) was a big fail. Personality and behavior, two completely separate things.

And when I examine any driver, this is how I work, I break down their individual parts instead of just looking at the surface. It gets much more complicated in Formula One because there are many different factors that affect the bottom line, what most view in Wiki, just results. If you are not in the right car, it does not matter if you can walk on water. There are team politics, more powerful than many believe. This is a long list and every factor does affect the bottom line. Some drivers crack under pressure, while others (Jimmy Johnson in NASCAR) becomes an almost perfect machine the more pressure you put on him.

I will begin by stating that IMO Hamilton is the most naturally talented driver of his generation. Put him in a London double decker bus and he will drive the wheels off that thang.

Although having immense talent is a job requirement in Formula One, other factors also come into play. Does the driver put in the hard work and effort to hone his craft, does he do the correct mental preparation so he always brings his "A" game for the entire race weekend? Is he a positive influence on a team and a team-builder and motivator instead of a disruptive influence? How much relevant feedback does he give to his engineers?

Does he have enough technical proficiency to be able to contribute the car's setup, maybe even design? Many years ago Roger Penske had a gem in Mark Donohue, who was also an engineer. There was no other driver who could sort out a car better and quicker than Mark.

IMO racecraft is the driver's ability to deal with other factors than just the track itself. Other drivers, weather (Button gets a gold star on that one), strategy, even anticipating changing conditions are part of racecraft. Closely coupled with racecraft is the ability to make correct risk versus reward decisions.

The business side side of things was also mentioned in this thread, and it is relevant. Yes, Formula One is definitely a business. But it is also an entertainment medium. Maintaining a positive public optic and also being able to cater to sponsor's wishes does matter. A very good comparison is between Hamilton and the reigning Formula One champion, Rosberg. Rosberg always looks like he stepped off the cover of GQ magazine, while Hamilton's fashion choices are more hip-hop. Different public perceptions cater to different target audiences.

Bringing this little TLDR post to a conclusion, Hamilton is the most naturally talented driver of his generation, but he falls short in just about every other category.
Utter nonsense. You don't become a multiple champion in formula 1 by just natural talent. That means any btcc or wrc or whatever driver in these categories with bags of natural talent could just jump in a formula 1 car and be a world champion.

And to suggest he does.not.put the work in is Utter nonsense too. Your talking about the mans clothes ffs. how can his dress sense inhibit him from being a great driver?

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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by Zblogger »

Herb Tarlik wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:Ultimately, I go by this question: who would I pick to win if they were all in the same car? I've yet to see anyone look faster than Lewis in the same car (including Alonso). I've seen Alonso beaten out narrowly by Hamilton as a rookie and I've seen Vettel beaten out convincingly by Ricciardo. I've seen Hamilton lose to a teammate on points but never on pace. Ricciardo has been beating Max in the points but I've noticed that Max seems to have gained the upper-hand in terms of pace this year. To beat Hamilton in a season where reliability is even between the cars is something I don't see any of the other drivers doing right now. He actually makes very few mistakes and the notion of beating him by simply being more consistent is actually quite a tall order. In terms of top end performance ceiling, I think his is the highest.
Well said Sandman. Very nicely noted.
I agree as well. Alonso is very close, Vettel is more mistake prone. In the end of the day, very little difference between the three drivers, they are the creme de la creme of this era.
Vettel was absolutely thrashed by RIC at Red Bull so I would not put him anywhere near Hamilton or Alonso.
Yes I agree. In his Red bull a new car to Dan. Danny boy beat Vettel fair and square. Totally outperformed him. IAnd I beleive that if they were team mates again Dan would beat Vettel again. The only competitive team mate Vettel had was Dan and he got beat.

I rate Alonso but getting beat by rookie Hamilton is totally embarrassing for a two time world champion. Considered the best racer on the grid at the time. Maybe this says more about our perception of Alonso being this supreme driver rather than What it tells us about Hamiltons ability.

All in all if F1 was a spec series bar reliability issues I think Hamilton is the man I'll pick to win more often than not against Alonso and Vettel.

The smears about Hamilton wearing hip hop clothes and only turning up with talent is so disrespectful. The man has worked so hard all his life to be an F1 driver and this is the type of racially motivated and discriminatory smears he still receives on these forums.

Stating he has no technical.knowledge and can't set up.his car. I remember during the Mclaren years on many occasions Button had to copy Hamilton's setups. Whitnash even stating this. We talk about other drivers skill in changing conditions. Yes Hamilton can improve in this area but he is a demon in the wet. Check the last 3-4 season who has come out on top in wet races. Go look at the facts.

All in all I think his results prove it for them self. Bar reliability issues he has always had the better stats compaired to his team mate. Even in years he has lost the title or got beaten over a season. Take out the reliability and he's the better driver.

In summary my current rating of the drivers out there as of.now.

1 Hamilton
2 Alonso
3 Richarrdo

Excuse the typos and spelling. Smart phone typing.

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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by Teddy007 »

Lewis Hamilton was summed up in his first season and nothing has changed. Gave a double world champion a run for his money - something not many honestly thought would happen.

He showed moments of experience, talent, raw speed and race craft. At times he can make mistakes - he's human. He's managed to win in a front runner car, a car slightly off pace from the front runners and nothing has really changed.

The rest is just rival banter. Any team boss down the pit lane would take the likes of Lewis Hamilton.

And for anyone that says it's all the car - just remember that every title winner in the last 20 years won in a title contender car. Even one of the greatest drivers - Michael Schumacher said the car is a large portion but it's down to the driver to make the best of it.

If people question the talent level of Lewis, I think these people are the same ones who think they can drive an F1 car just because they know how to drive an average car on a dual carriageway at 120MPH. The same people who wreck their average car on a silly corner doing 50MPH compared to F1 drivers who are among the best in the world getting within a few tenths of each other taking corners at over 100MPH in cars that also provide G Forces that make the average person throw up or struggle to think straight.
Last edited by Teddy007 on Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by Teddy007 »

Exediron wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:I think you are wrong about Hamilton's technical ability. This is a guy with over 100 podiums in just what, 202 starts. That's a strike rate of over 50%. I don't think that you can achieve that feat if you can't even set up your car
Hamilton is an impressive driver, but raw statistics like this have very little to do with it. Between 2014 and 2016, Jolyon Palmer would probably have got about 40-50 podiums from 59 starts.
Considering that nearly every chance Palmer has had to do well - he snuffed it through silly mistakes or under performances. The other times his reliability has also snuffed his chances.

So I completely disagree with your comment. If Palmer is that good why has his race seat been given to some one else. Drivers like Lewis don't lose their seats - they choose to leave. Palmer when given the chance has been outclassed by the Hulk most of the time. Again it's why his race seat has been lost.

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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

Post by Siao7 »

Herb Tarlik wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:Ultimately, I go by this question: who would I pick to win if they were all in the same car? I've yet to see anyone look faster than Lewis in the same car (including Alonso). I've seen Alonso beaten out narrowly by Hamilton as a rookie and I've seen Vettel beaten out convincingly by Ricciardo. I've seen Hamilton lose to a teammate on points but never on pace. Ricciardo has been beating Max in the points but I've noticed that Max seems to have gained the upper-hand in terms of pace this year. To beat Hamilton in a season where reliability is even between the cars is something I don't see any of the other drivers doing right now. He actually makes very few mistakes and the notion of beating him by simply being more consistent is actually quite a tall order. In terms of top end performance ceiling, I think his is the highest.
Well said Sandman. Very nicely noted.
I agree as well. Alonso is very close, Vettel is more mistake prone. In the end of the day, very little difference between the three drivers, they are the creme de la creme of this era.
Vettel was absolutely thrashed by RIC at Red Bull so I would not put him anywhere near Hamilton or Alonso.
Well, you see Alonso was bettered by a rookie and by Trulli (until he was fired). Hamilton was bettered by Button and Rosberg. Hell, Rosberg has bettered Hamilton AND Schumacher over a season, a combined 11 WDC's. Does this make him the GOAT? Of course not.

A bad season doesn't take anything away from their achievements. Maybe you wouldn't put him to top 3, which is fine. I would, albeit just behind the other two drives. It's a shame that you disregard 4 WDC years but chose to remember one bad year, it just doesn't make sense to me.

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tootsie323
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Re: Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?

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lamo wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
lamo wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:I personally think this was just a bad year from Vettel. Is there anyway Hamilton could be put up there with Alonso when he was beaten by Button in 2011? Sometimes drivers have bad seasons. I think Vettel has been far better every year since 2014. I think he is about the same level as Hamilton. I don't really know how to judge Alonso any more. It has been so long since he has been in a decent car. Until I see it, I'm not convinced he'll be up with the best any more. I'd better get prepared for many to disagree with me on this! :lol:
Alonso was matched by a rookie in 2007 and behind Trulli when he got sacked in 2004. He also got beat by Button on points (although fortuitously in 2015).

Hamilton was still quicker than Button in 2011. Ahead when both finished was 7-7, 3-3 in wins. Hamilton won in qualifying too. Hamilton had 6 races in which he had collisions that year and it ruined his year. His race craft was poor but his speed was always there mostly. In the first half of 2011 he actually comprehensively beat Button and he had many races he was miles ahead of Button through the entire year.

He also beat him comfortably in 2010. 10-4 when both finished. 2 of which were tyre gambles in the wet that JB made when behind Hamilton and they paid off. Another was Japan were Hamilton was 20 seconds ahead and developed a gearbox problem. 2012 was also Hamiltons strongest year against Button.

Vettel had the single year against Dan and wasn't quicker than him, only in the wet. He lost on everything, points, qualifying, ahead when both finished. Clean sweep. He also didn't have a single race he was a cut above Dan. Because it was only one year too its worse than losing say 1 season in 3 like Hamilton.

Also Vettels 2016 was nowhere near as good as his 2015. It was one of his worst seasons. He also had a poor first half to 2012, he was behind Webber and had won less races than him at mid season that year.
So was Alonso in 2015. Won Q 10-8, Won the H2H 4-2. Pace wasn't the problem but he ran into car issues on the tracks McLaren could score big on apart from Hungary. Monaco failures in Q and R and in the US the engine issue when he could have been fighting Perez for 5th after the SC killed him really for overhauling the points gap.
Yes I agree that is why I put fortuitously , I was just pointing out to the OP who was suggesting 2011 ruled LH out. If that rules Hamilton out then all three of them are ruled out.
That was the OP's point. Each of these 'top three' drivers have had the odd bad season. It isn't exactly fair to write off a bad year for one driver but not for another.
Edited for grammar!
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