I don't think it's reasonable to discount some of those. Since when is an alternate strategy working considered an illegitimate podium? A little lucky, okay, but then Max was lucky in Malaysia for Vettel to have started at the back, and he was lucky in Mexico for Lewis and Seb to have hit each other, etc. It's rare for any podium or win to be completely free of luck.

I would say the podium in Baku was also legitimate, since quite a few of the people in front of him took themselves out by driver error - Max and Lewis were faultless in their failures to finish, but that would still have put Ricciardo on the podium even if they had both beaten him. It was a lucky win, but I think the podium was earned by staying clean and making a decisive pass.

In Austria I also feel his podium was legitimate. Lewis started behind, but we've seen in the past that Lewis can make it to the podium from the back, let alone the midfield. Ricciardo kept ahead of him because he was quick. Malaysia, if he was lucky so was Max, and Japan too to some extent (although Max would probably have been third and still on the podium).

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PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 15 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017 & 2019
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion

I just listed all his podiums, Monaco he did well but just ended up on the best strategy. If your team splits strategy all through the year, sometimes it will favour you sometimes it won't. But he was running 5th before then.

Max may have had some fortune to win in Malaysia, but even if both Ferrari's beat him he would still be 3rd. Kimi wouldn't have beat him either. The same for Mexico, Max had already taken the lead and probably the win before Vettel/Hamilton collision. Worse case he was still on the podium that day too but I feel he won the race with his turn 1/2 pass.

Hamilton qualified 3rd in Austria ahead of Ricciardo. Dan may have had a good pace but without that penalty, Hamilton likely beats him.

I prefer Ricciardo as a driver but the facts are the facts, nearly all of his podiums were circumstantial as were all of his wins in his career (not that he had the car to actually win races though).

I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said, but don’t forget that Dan totally owned Monaco in 2016 and would’ve won that race completely on merit had it not been for a bad strategy call and a bad pit stop.

I'd also give him Belgium. Yes, the SC helped but I did not expect him to pass Bottas' Mercedes on the restart - that is making the most of an opportunity.

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Where I'm going, I don't need roads

I've been over this many times before, but you're doing Ricciardo a great disservice by writing off his good results as being the result of dumb luck.

As yourself why it's always Ricciardo who picks up the pieces?

How many other drivers have won a race by overtaking Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso in the last 5 laps?

But sure, it's all down to luck.

Who said it was all down to luck, I said there was little difference between Max's 5th place (or any of Ricciardo's 4th/5th for that matter) in AD when multiple cars didn't drop out ahead and Ricciardo's podiums in which multiple people dropped out ahead.

If you are good enough for 5th/6th and finish 5th/6th that is no different to me than being good enough for 5th/6th and coming 3rd because others retired ahead of you or got penalties. Its pot luck, just like his wins in 2014. The three races Mercedes dropped the ball, he happened to be the next best that day and won all three races when in reality through the season he was only next best 5-6 races out of 20. His drives those days were no better than others had driven to finish 3rd through the year it just happened to be on days when both Mercedes failed.

People used this when Nico got all his 2nd places in 2014, "he is always there to pick up the pieces if Hamilton has mechanical issues etc etc". He was in a 2 horse race that year! Finishing 2nd was basically last place. Going into the run in, he had 10 2nd places and 4 wins and many were calling it consistency and "always being there" were he just had better reliability.

Dan didn't have RB's dodgy suspension and Renault's upgraded engine for his early podiums, it was a far worse car at that point of the season so podiums through anything but a bit of luck were far more unlikely. Red Bull were forced not to run the suspension after Mexico and look at the difference.

Why wouldn't Kimi beat Max in Malaysia? And if both Ferrari's are there and healthy and in front then maybe Lewis approaches his race a bit differently and doesn't roll out the red carpet for Max in this scenario.

Dan still had 3 cars ahead of him in Austria after Lewis's penalty was applied.


I think Dan has been outperformed for the first time in his career across the season by Max this year but it was still quite close. Max had the edge in quali and especially at the starts which set up most of the difference between the pair this year but race pace was close, most of the quali's were close and he showed greater consistency and composure at important times which helped him gobble up a lot of points.

Baku is a good example which for most is entirely down to luck but he had an early set back through no fault of his own and had to pit to clear a blockage and it was his decisive moves and error free but aggressive passing which put him back in the position to get that fortunate win. Italy is another where he nearly got a podium despite starting at the back thanks to being quick,error free and decisive.

Just seems much too harsh to boil it down to Max's magic got him his and Dan's luck got him his.

(And he'd absolutely have a legit win on his ledger if his pit crew hadn't robbed him in Monaco last year).

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

Because Max's engine breaks down so he can't.

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Go Vandoorne - Verstappen - Vettel!

It's not though is it? He's retired many times this year. When he does finish well i t is generally because things have gone wrong for others. The further back you are the more drivers are going to retire in front of you. Ricciardo is a very, very good driver who s very, very good at taking his chances. But you can't hold double standards.

Sorry to necro this old thread but I just have to point out that Max has firmly gained the upper hand in the matchup now. Okay, reliability has been horrific for Daniel but Max hasn't had it too good in that department either and the bottom line is that Max has had Daniel well and truly covered both in qualifying and the races for the last couple of months now. The pace gap in qualifying seems to be consistently there basically all through 2017 and 2018 at this point. If not for the silly mistakes from Max early in the year, he would be absolutely dominating Daniel this year. Smart move to switch teams on Daniel's part. His stock would not have ever gotten any higher than it was after those two wins earlier this season.

The qualifying I'll give you. But I simply do not think you can make the same blanket statement on the race. How many races this year have there been where Max and Dan both ran clean without their cars screwing one or the other up? I count about one (Canada) since Verstappen stopped crashing into everything.

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PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 15 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017 & 2019
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion

What makes you think he stopped?

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Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi

He did until yesterday to be fair. Agree with Exediron, qualifying there's a clear advantage for Max but not in the races, that's still going back and forth. Silverstone and France Dan looked quicker but Spa and Italy Max did. Max's starts have been better though.

Red Bull are going to change Dan's chassis as he's not been happy with it since his announcement apparently, and it was another Red Bull failure yesterday, not Renault. (Clutch)

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

Dan has 5 mechanical DNFs to Max's 2. I have no doubt that in perfectly healthy cars Dan would be ahead on the points table. Max is faster in qualy, no doubt about it. But he has hit so much stuff this year that he has squandered a bagful of points

Yesterday he was putting in one of the drives of the season - keeping a Merc behind in Monza was ludicrous! But then he reached into his box of tricks and pulled out the kind of thing Maldonado was mocked for. Add in his petulance with the time penalty... yeah Dan would be ahead no bother IMO

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I don't rely entirely on God

I rely on Prost

Would be ahead only because Max's mistakes in the first part of the season, which won't happen forever.
All things being 'settled' and clean, he's faster both in qualy and race. I think majority agrees with this.
Many of the points gained by Ric were when Max was in front in the race and made mistakes while passing others, and what caused a big swing in the points, especially this happening in the front positions.
I don't remember from the head many races where Ric simply outqualified and outraced Max without any exceptional mistakes/misfortunes/ hectic races involved.
In qualy last seaon was 13-7 for Max and this one curently its something like 11-2! And Ric's asset is usually the single qualy laps more than race pace. It was like that with all his teammates.
Ric has more mechanical failures this season but so did Max last season. In the 2nd part of the season when he had no longer issues Max was 2nd in point scoring only to Hamilton.
And Max's mechanical issues were a lot more often when he was in front positions compared to Dan.
So points table can suffer big swings considering this things. The important thing for a driver in the long run is the qualy pace and race pace.

This summarizes my feelings about what's happening at RBR. Max is the faster driver and it's only his maturation process that gives Ricciardo the ability to run him close over a season. In terms of ability, Max has Daniel beat pretty comprehensively. He's consistently quicker in qualifying and usually quicker in the races too (not always). When its wet, the gap widens.

That's kinda my point though. Dan only being ahead because of Max's mistakes would still mean Max was driving worse than Dan. You say he won't make these mistakes forever but where's the proof? He just drove into Bottas on Sunday. The only signs of improvement you can take from it are that he isn't hitting other cars as frequently as he did earlier on this year

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I don't rely entirely on God

I rely on Prost

Max will keep improving. He's not going to go through his whole career bouncing off people. I think if he had a chance of a championship you may see him driving quite differently.

The whole thing might shift DR's way if Red Bull carry out their threat to leave F1 if they cant get the engine to work. No point Mx being the lead driver if he hasn't got a car!

https://www.foxsports.com.au/motorsport/formula-one/f1-red-bull-threatens-to-quit-formula-1-if-honda-engines-dont-make-it-a-world-title-contender/news-story/e203f653e27b0b60766ca05cad23c6de?nk=e826a6440b8f96bd5b0a97f4344e1010-1536125687

We'll it's been 4 yrs now. He's not changed his style & he's saying he won't change his style.

What's Einsteins definition of insanity again?

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Races since last non RB, Merc, Ferrari winner (After Abu Dhabi - 19) - 138 & counting.( Last win, Lotus, 17/3/13)

Non RB, Merc, Ferrari podiums won in Hybrid era - 360 trophies available, 26 won

2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)

Yeah it's a flaw but Verstappen doesn't see it as a flaw, everyone else is wrong including the stewards.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place
2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

The qualifying gap is getting embarrassing now.

Either 2014 was a fluke, or Verstappen is actually insanely fast. Vettel went up against Raikkonen and Webber (two non RB drivers), so we have a good idea of how fast he is relative to the rest of the grid. All the cross comparisons point to Verstappen being the fastest man in F1.

Not all comparisons - only the ones that run through Ricciardo. His comparison with Sainz indicates a much lower level, although since that was his rookie season it may very well mean less.

We'll have a much better picture next year, when Ricciardo gets compared to a very established driver in Hulk and Verstappen gets another data point in the fast but unproven Gasly. If Ricciardo struggles to beat Hulk, 2014 was a fluke. If Gasly comes close to Verstappen, Ricciardo was probably just not driving his best this year.

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PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 15 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017 & 2019
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion

https://www.news.com.au/sport/motorsport/formula-one/daniel-ricciardo-upset-by-lacklustre-qualifying-for-singapore-f1-grand-prix/news-story/7b501b65354a99be062f51dbe20f34e8

Redbull magic. DR was quicker than Max, better create a problem.

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Aussie :: Ricciardo

er, what?

This shouldn't even be a discussion anymore. I can't even remember the last time Ricciardo looked genuinely quicker in either a qualy or a race. It must have been months ago. Apart from Vandoorne by Alonso and Ericsson from Leclerc, there's no one on the grid more comprehensively outclassed than Ricciardo.

But overall, he just has not been better than verstappen this year. Verstappen is quicker in qualifying. No doubt at all. But we haven't had enough races to compare their race pace. verstappen usually has better starts, but they are often very close at other stages. And Verstappen has made so many mistakes that it is very obvious Ricciardo would be quite some points ahead without his 4 technical retirements. I think Verstappen has just had 2 tecknical retirements. The rest were down to his driving. I blame both for Azerbaijan. But in the races which are what matter, verstappen has no way outclassed Verstappen this year over the season. Ricciardo is 12 points behind with significantly worse luck. I do believe Verstappen could be a fair bit better, he just needt to take less risks. Half the time his risks have not worked this year. Being more cautious would have got him more points. That is one reason why i think Recciardo has overall been better because he knows when not to be overly aggressive and he hardly ever gets involved in the incidents Verstappen does. And this gets him points.

Ricciardo relies on Verstappen's mistakes to beat him. The problem for him is that Verstappen's mistakes won't last.

It reminds of the early Vettel-Webber days. Once Vettel ironed out his mistakes, Webber just couldn't live with him anymore.

Ricciardo made the right move by leaving Red Bull for 2019. His stock is still high.

Verstappen took these risks throughout most of last season, but just got away with more of them. He was optimistic in Spain, didn't get away with that. Took a huge risk in Canada and incredibly got away without a puncture. Same in Mexico. Both times clipping his rear wheel against somebody's front wing. Then the quantity of mistakes this year is just shocking given his reputation.

Just how much can you list?


Australia. Runs too aggressively and wide over a kerb. The team tell him to be less agressive as I think he had potentually damaged his car. He kept pushing and spun and lost places.

Bahrain. Has already completed a run in Q2 good enough to get through. His team may have told him to do another, but they told him to do another lap to calibrate his setup. This word means to carefully donkeys, set or adjust something. He did not need to flaw it. He did and ruined his result by crashing. In the race, he could have got by Hamilton in a more sensible place, but he was overly aggressive and hit Hamilton and retired.

China. He just runs out of patients and attempts to overtake Hamilton in a silly place. He was far faster, why not wait until an easy place to do so? He goes off track and looses positions. Then in his rush to get back up, crashes into Vettel.

Azerbaijan. I blame both for this. They both could have done one small thing differently and it will have been totally avoidable. Ricciardo gog a bit too close to verstappen in the braking zone IMO. Being that close with Verstappen would result in a lack of downforce which was what caused him to lock up and crash into him. Verstappen shouldn't have swerved in the braking zone like he did, but I blame both for this. But again, it involves a mistake by Verstappen.

Spain. Now this was a lucky escape that I feel some are forgetting. Hit ran into the back of stroll during yellow flags. What a clumsy mistake. You should be prepared to STOP in these conditions. Crashing into a moving object when it is clearly visible is incredibly clumsy. He damaged his front wing. And when it broke off, he was incredibly lucky for it not to give him a puncture. The broken part infact flew off onto the track and Perez ran over it, incredibly escaping a puncture. As silly as it would sound, but if Perez got a puncture, I would blame Verstappen.

Monaco. This may have been practice, but he seemed to be in the sort of mood to prove that he was the best and quickest at an unnecesery time. He tried to hard in the last few second of P3 and had a heavy crash. What a stupid mistake. Can't feel sorry that the rest of his weekend was ruined.

The following few races, he did have some outstanding ones. But he did crash in one or two practice sessions. And then the latest race (italy) He may have been fast (as always) but that mistake with Bottas was really silly. And his reaction to the penalty was just pathetic. He clearly had at that stage lost interest in trying to do the best for the team as I beleive that from his comments he was trying to help Vettel close in on Hamilton.





Despite Verstappen looking outstanding in terms of his speed, he makes way to many mistakes. I think he was just lucky that he has a lucky escape with these moves he did last season. I at the time thought that if he continued these, he would pay for it. And he has.

He's been like this for several seasons now. I'm not sure if these mistakes won't last. He may start making less, but unless he works heavily on his over aggressive manner, I can't see him ever having a clean season. But at the same time, I always expect him to have several truely outstanding results, which admittedly this driving style can sometimes bring.

He'll win the WDC if he gets to sit in the fastest car. Who will he crash into?

He takes risks because in his position that is the most sensible course of action. Both this season and last Red Bull are nailed on for 3rd in the WCC so it becomes more worth while to push harder and go for that win or podium and risk,say a 4th or 5th position. Because at the end of the day where Red Bull are Verstappen finishing 4th doesn't do anyone any good.

Its not a hard concept to understand, but I will explain it for you.

Practice sessions Dan was faster. Then for qualifying there was some kind of mysterious problem after a change. Max trounces him. Why was there a problem? Redbull want their "man" to win, not Dan, hes on the way out.

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Aussie :: Ricciardo

I'd say you could make that point for a few drivers out there.

The problem is that with Verstappen. it's not a case of "oh, he'll stop making mistakes. He's still young and learning".

No. He & his father believe his driving style is the right way. It's worked for him in the past and he's said more than a few times he's got no plans to change it.

So, the obvious conclusion we can draw is that, until he & his father take the hint, he'll continue to make those mistakes. He'll continue to drive into others or drive them off the track. He'll continue to put his car into armco like he does every year at Monaco.

If he continues to do that, he'll never be a WDC.

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Races since last non RB, Merc, Ferrari winner (After Abu Dhabi - 19) - 138 & counting.( Last win, Lotus, 17/3/13)

Non RB, Merc, Ferrari podiums won in Hybrid era - 360 trophies available, 26 won

2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)

That's just a nonsense conspiracy theory. Red Bull want to do as well as possible and if Dan were faster he would've had a potential shot at pole.

Red Bull aren't going to deliberately hinder the faster driver because they would prefer the slower one to win.

Honestly, I would like to write something nice about Max Verstappen, but if he crashes in my favorite driver, I will regret it

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The end is near

As I said though, it's worth taking the risks in his current situation. I think you may see a championship chasing Verstappen be more circumspect.

Honestly, the only worse teammate head to head in qualifying might be Alonso vs Vandoorne.
Ricciardo is being beaten left and right but for the many "experts" the mediocre driver is Carlos Sainz jr.

There is no chance Verstappen would put that kind of gaps on Sainz Jr. if they were teammate but for some reason Daniel Ricciardo is stil considered by many "Top Dog" who would perform better than Bottas and beat Hamilton. Laughable. Daniel is overrated and has always been and the RedBull is actually a very good car but in bad hands.

It's not a hard concept to understand, no. But it is a stupid one. There is no benefit to Red Bull to warrant doing this. Just the usual crackpot conspiracy theories from those who are unable or unwilling to comprehend their man getting beaten.

Max also had problems with his engine, but I guess Red Bull are trying to hobble both their drivers

That is ridiculous.
It's not even worth time to dismantle that.

Max it's just outperforming Dan, it shouldn't be that hard to admit it.

Now he is for sure, and he has for a few races. Ricciardo needs to turn his form around if he wants to save face before leaving for Renault.

_________________

Maybe mentally he's already left for Renault.

You're right though. Verstappen is simply out driving Ricciardo.

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Races since last non RB, Merc, Ferrari winner (After Abu Dhabi - 19) - 138 & counting.( Last win, Lotus, 17/3/13)

Non RB, Merc, Ferrari podiums won in Hybrid era - 360 trophies available, 26 won

2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)