How do you know Max didn't have the pace to do more? He had no reason to push.

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2017: 4th place
2018: 12th place

Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016, 3rd China 2018, 3rd Japan 2018, 2nd Mexico 2018

I'd agree they were, which makes it difficult to work out their exact pace

I don't. It's impossible to say for sure. But the fact that Lewis could pick the pace up by that much - one whole second is not insignificant - tells us that he wasn't exactly hanging on by the skin of his teeth. Which also puts the doom talk into some perspective

In the second stint all drivers have more pace than they display. The second stint in a 1-stop race is about making the tires last until the end. You only have to push when you are under threat from behind.

Qualifying is not analogous to the race. Over a single lap there are a lot of things Mercedes and Hamilton can do that they cannot do over a race distance. Considering both Daniel and Max went into the race knowing they had a significant pace advantage, I think your comments are completely out to lunch.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13216 ... errari-too
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13211 ... s-red-bull

Vettel's advantage over Raikkonen in his first season at Ferrari was comparable to Alonso's advantage over Kimi. That puts a question on whether or not Alonso is tier 1, which puts a question on whether or not Hamilton is tier 1.

Hang on a sec here pardner! LOL

Looking at the entirety of the race, it is unquestionable Vettel had the fastest car all day in Malaysia by a decent margin. While he finished as far back as he did, he had to fight ALL the way through the pack to do so and given how closely matched F1 cars are, in traffic with dirty air and impeding cars/drivers being a constant through his entire charge through the field, had there been none of that Vettel could theoretically have completed the 56 lap event in less time than every other driver and by a pretty solid figure.

Alonso cost Vettel several seconds and ultimately another shot to contest for the final podium position and throughout the race he had similar hiccups because it is simply the nature of the beast.

The only 2 absolutes in racing are that the guy who crosses checkered flag wins and 2nd place is the first loser.

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HAMILTON :: VERSTAPPEN :: LECLERC :: BOTTAS :: VETTEL :: SAINZ :: NORRIS
KVYAT :: RAIKKONEN :: RUSSEL :: ALBON :: RICCIARDO :: HULKENBURG :: PEREZ
STROLL :: MAGNUSSEN :: GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: GIOVANAZZI :: KUBICA

Given the overall body of evidence Vettel is closer to Raikkonen on performance than Alonso was. Your reasoning here is actually very poor. Even if Vettel and Alonso had the same gap to Kimi, why would that mean that Alonso and Hamilton come into question but not Vettel?

Vettel's advantage in 2015 over Raikkonen was the biggest it ever was, and comparable to Alonso's advantage. Since then Kimi has closed the gap, which would suggest that he simply got more comfortable with the Ferrari cars. Unless you think that Vettel has, for some reason, became a worse driver since 2015?



Simple, since we are doing teammate comparisons, Hamilton is roughly = Alonso based on 2007, and Vettel has a similar gap to Kimi as Alonso did, then Vettel = Alonso. Therefore if Vettel comes into question, then so does Alonso and thus Hamilton.

We have a clear grasp of how Alonso, Hamilton, Massa, Rosberg and Button compare relative to each other. We don't really know how the Red Bull academy drivers compare because we've never seen a direct battle. The closest comparison we have is both Vettel and Alonso competing against Kimi.

This is so absurdly nonsensical as to be comedy. So somehow the last year and a half of Vettel v Kimi are irrelevant? Only the data points that help your agenda are meaningful I suppose? There's so much wrong with what you've written here I wouldn't even know where to start to be honest...

I believe that was just a case of the Mercedes working better on the soft tyres but at that point he had already settled for second, who would deliberately in the first stint allow the leader to pull a 10 second gap, also do you really believe he had the pace to cruise whilst Ricciardo was driving flat out, that doesn't look good for Ricciardo?

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Nope, what I'm saying is that in all likelihood, Kimi would have improved relative to Alonso if/when the Ferrari car improved and became easier to drive.

Was Hamilton not roughly evenly matched with Rosberg, before putting clear daylight between himself and Nico in 2014-16?

That's because his car was working better on the soft tyres, and as we are often reminded Mercedes have a better qualifying mode than Renault which explains part of the gap, also the conditions in qualifying suited the Mercedes better than in the race.

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2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

Unless it's Nico Rosberg

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I don't rely entirely on God

I rely on Prost

It has got something to do with how the car works with different tyres, the Mercedes wasn't as good on the super softs.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

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2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place
2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

He's just spouting whatever comes into his head.

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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

In the second stint yes.

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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

It depends if you call 0.08s comparable?

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2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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I think you've got hold of the wrong end of the stick, the guy I'm replying to said that the Ferrari wasn't the fastest car because it didn't win the race.

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No he was not. The win Rosberg had at Silverstone was directly inherited from Hamilton's mechanical failure. In general the issues they had with the tires overshadowed everything they did that year but Hamilton was better on the year.

With regards to Raikkonen and how he stacked up to Vettel and Alonso; Raikkonen beat Vettel out in qualifying over the 2016 season. Alonso out-qualified Raikkonen 16-3 and beat him in the races 15-1 when both finished. Vettel did dominate Raikkonen in 2015 but the actual numbers were 15-4 in qualifying and 10-4 in races where both finished. Vettel was not as dominant over Kimi as Alonso was. More importantly, 2016 and 2017 have been quite a bit closer (especially in qualifying). In other words, the premise of your argument is false.

Knowing roughly this and knowing roughly that means basically though that you roughly don't really know.

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Podiums: (8)

You can't predict that Kimi would have improved also you can't cherry pick 1 year when drivers have been teammates for 4 years.

The performance gap we saw between Alonso and Kimi was in fact quite predictable just by seeing how the 2 drivers performed against Massa.

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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

Rosberg had three mechanical failures in Australia, China and Hungary. His wing fell off in Korea too when he was in the process of overtaking Hamilton. The luck between the two was equal (if anything slightly harsher on Rosberg). Hamilton was at best slightly better.


This is misleading, because Vettel was way ahead of Raikkonen when Kimi retired in Australia, Austria, Hungary and USA. In other words, it should really be 14-4. Vettel also started from the back in Canada (but was much quicker than Kimi in the race), and had a puncture on the final lap in Belgium (and was way ahead of Kimi). Reverse those two and the the score is 16-2.

Also, Alonso was extremely fortunate to finish ahead of Raikkonen in Spain (Kimi was ahead but Ferrari put Alonso on the better 3 stop strategy) and Monaco (Kimi was ahead before a puncture).

Yes, Vettel was just as dominant over Raikkonen in 2015 and Alonso was in 2014.

This is why I believe Raikkonen would have also improved relative to Alonso if they had stayed together as teammates. If the car became better and easier to drive, Kimi would likely perform better relative to Alonso.

Do I have absolute conclusive evidence to prove it? No. Then again, if 2013 was the only season Hamilton and Rosberg had together, you wouldn't have any conclusive evidence to prove that Hamilton is better than Rosberg by anything but a smudge.

I don't think that's fair. 16-3 and 15-4 are as near to identical as makes no odds and their average qualifying gap was pretty close too IIRC. Race results can be affected by a number of things, for example Vettel's damaged front wing in Bahrain. All in all their records in their first year together with Kimi look pretty much the same

This is why 1 year comparisons are not ideal unless you have correlation data to compare with, this basically is a problem you have with Vettel and Ricciardo but this is a problem you tend to have with Red Bull drivers.

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Podiums: (8)

Vettel and Kimi are into their 3rd year now, all the data is relevant.

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Do you think that Vettel has became a worse driver since 2015, or has Raikkonen improved?

Your whole argument hinges on what you think would have happened had Alonso stayed on at Ferrari. It's a very weak argument.

I believe there are fluctuations from year to year, the more data the more accurate the analysis, Kimi's best year was 2016 so that dispels the theory of Kimi getting better year on year.

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Both in different periods.

Seb wasn't very good in 2016 I don't think, at least not up to the standard of 15 and 17. Also Kimi has undoubtedly looked more comfortable in periods throughout 2016 and 2017 than he did in 2015 and 14 but he's also looked just as bad and worse some weekends too.

It's not a constant. I actually think Kimi is doing better than Bottas is since Monaco overall but he's got a habit of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

No, it isn't. The fairest comparison is to use a similar dataset, which is best represented by their first years together and in that one Vettel beat Kimi by an almost identical margin to Alonso.

Personally I think that, while Kimi has undoubtedly improved in qualifying, he's still pretty average in race pace. he can't seem to scale anywhere near the same heights

As his pomp or compared to Bottas?.

Agree if it's the former but I think he's doing well enough compared to Bottas in that regard since the summer.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

Sorry, I'm struggling with "as his pomp?!" help me!

Sorry, in his pomp. As in do you think he's struggling to reach the same heights race pace wise as he could in his prime(pomp)?. Reading it back it could also be you just meant the same heights as Seb?.

Seb,Bottas or Prime, choose your weapon.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

No it's not, that's called cherry picking and even at that Alonso did better.

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2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

Because the Ferrari has been better

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2014: Champion
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2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

It has yeah but when the Mercedes was better we didn't excuse Kimi.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

I think that was more of a case of the cars being quite equal and thinking were is Kimi?

It's sort of a strange argument to be making that Kimi is doing better because Bottas is getting hammered by Hamilton when Kimi himself is getting hammered by Vettel.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

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2014: Champion
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2016: 4th Place
2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

So the cars have only ever been equal or Ferrari better?.

What's the respective quali and h2h stats since Monaco?. Score and avg gap for quali if you've got it. Maybe I'm wrong but it just feels like Kimi has been far closer to troubling Seb than Bottas has to Lewis. (I've no argument that Bottas was much better in the beginning of the season).

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

The difference really is in what happens to them on a bad weekend. Kimi generally walks away empty handed when things go wrong while Bottas has had at least 3 podiums in races where he has been terrible.