Max is Out-Performing Daniel (Believe it or Not)

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F1_Ernie
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Re: Max is Out-Performing Daniel (Believe it or Not)

Post by F1_Ernie »

AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote: There's really no point to having a conversation with someone who's so out of touch with reality.
Feel free to have your beliefs, but expect people to call you out when you present them as facts.
Have a look at the Merc on soft and see for yourself.
Yeah no I've looked at the lap charts for the race (and for the three practice sessions for that matter) and Red Bull were definitely quicker all weekend.
No they weren't, have a look again, qualifying Red Bull was slower, second stint Lewis had pace to do more than he did
How do you know Max didn't have the pace to do more? He had no reason to push.
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Zoue
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Re: Max is Out-Performing Daniel (Believe it or Not)

Post by Zoue »

F1_Ernie wrote:Redbull was faster than Mercedes. One stop races are pretty simple and once the stops are done it's cruising mode. Top two was both cruising.
I'd agree they were, which makes it difficult to work out their exact pace

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Re: Max is Out-Performing Daniel (Believe it or Not)

Post by Zoue »

F1_Ernie wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote: There's really no point to having a conversation with someone who's so out of touch with reality.
Feel free to have your beliefs, but expect people to call you out when you present them as facts.
Have a look at the Merc on soft and see for yourself.
Yeah no I've looked at the lap charts for the race (and for the three practice sessions for that matter) and Red Bull were definitely quicker all weekend.
No they weren't, have a look again, qualifying Red Bull was slower, second stint Lewis had pace to do more than he did
How do you know Max didn't have the pace to do more? He had no reason to push.
I don't. It's impossible to say for sure. But the fact that Lewis could pick the pace up by that much - one whole second is not insignificant - tells us that he wasn't exactly hanging on by the skin of his teeth. Which also puts the doom talk into some perspective

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Re: Max is Out-Performing Daniel (Believe it or Not)

Post by sandman1347 »

AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote: There's really no point to having a conversation with someone who's so out of touch with reality.
Feel free to have your beliefs, but expect people to call you out when you present them as facts.
Have a look at the Merc on soft and see for yourself.
Yeah no I've looked at the lap charts for the race (and for the three practice sessions for that matter) and Red Bull were definitely quicker all weekend.
No they weren't, have a look again, qualifying Red Bull was slower, second stint Lewis had pace to do more than he did
In the second stint all drivers have more pace than they display. The second stint in a 1-stop race is about making the tires last until the end. You only have to push when you are under threat from behind.

Qualifying is not analogous to the race. Over a single lap there are a lot of things Mercedes and Hamilton can do that they cannot do over a race distance. Considering both Daniel and Max went into the race knowing they had a significant pace advantage, I think your comments are completely out to lunch.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13216 ... errari-too
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Re: Max is Out-Performing Daniel (Believe it or Not)

Post by KingVoid »

pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:The scary thing about Verstappen is that he just turned 20. Hamilton was in Formula 3 at that age. Verstappen has already established himself as a top 3 driver on the grid. In fact, there's a good chance he's already as good as Lewis.

And F1 drivers usually peak around the age of 30. Max is only going to get better and better.

At this point Verstappen isn't a "promising youngster" anymore. He's a monster in the making.
Yeah it's hard to determine exactly how good he is because of the Red Bull bubble were they basically only compete against one another, Vettel being the first to venture into the outside world as such, but without doubt he's tier 1.
Vettel's advantage over Raikkonen in his first season at Ferrari was comparable to Alonso's advantage over Kimi. That puts a question on whether or not Alonso is tier 1, which puts a question on whether or not Hamilton is tier 1.

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Re: Max is Out-Performing Daniel (Believe it or Not)

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
mcdo wrote:
AnRs wrote:A bit overrating putting Ferrari as the fastest when one car couldn't qualify and one couldn't start due to engine failures.

I also think that Red Bull was no faster than Merc but Max made the difference yesterday, and Lewis unwilling to defend.
Lewis had no problems keeping Ricciardo behind.
The Ferrari was the fastest car. It wasn't the best though. There's a difference
If you measure fastest as one lap speed, probably true, but if you judge probability for a race result due to the car it's a different picture
So nothing to debate then who ever wins the race has the fastest car.
Hang on a sec here pardner! LOL

Looking at the entirety of the race, it is unquestionable Vettel had the fastest car all day in Malaysia by a decent margin. While he finished as far back as he did, he had to fight ALL the way through the pack to do so and given how closely matched F1 cars are, in traffic with dirty air and impeding cars/drivers being a constant through his entire charge through the field, had there been none of that Vettel could theoretically have completed the 56 lap event in less time than every other driver and by a pretty solid figure.

Alonso cost Vettel several seconds and ultimately another shot to contest for the final podium position and throughout the race he had similar hiccups because it is simply the nature of the beast.

The only 2 absolutes in racing are that the guy who crosses checkered flag wins and 2nd place is the first loser.
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Re: Max is Out-Performing Daniel (Believe it or Not)

Post by sandman1347 »

KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:The scary thing about Verstappen is that he just turned 20. Hamilton was in Formula 3 at that age. Verstappen has already established himself as a top 3 driver on the grid. In fact, there's a good chance he's already as good as Lewis.

And F1 drivers usually peak around the age of 30. Max is only going to get better and better.

At this point Verstappen isn't a "promising youngster" anymore. He's a monster in the making.
Yeah it's hard to determine exactly how good he is because of the Red Bull bubble were they basically only compete against one another, Vettel being the first to venture into the outside world as such, but without doubt he's tier 1.
Vettel's advantage over Raikkonen in his first season at Ferrari was comparable to Alonso's advantage over Kimi. That puts a question on whether or not Alonso is tier 1, which puts a question on whether or not Hamilton is tier 1.
Given the overall body of evidence Vettel is closer to Raikkonen on performance than Alonso was. Your reasoning here is actually very poor. Even if Vettel and Alonso had the same gap to Kimi, why would that mean that Alonso and Hamilton come into question but not Vettel?

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Re: Max is Out-Performing Daniel (Believe it or Not)

Post by KingVoid »

sandman1347 wrote:Given the overall body of evidence Vettel is closer to Raikkonen on performance than Alonso was. Your reasoning here is actually very poor.
Vettel's advantage in 2015 over Raikkonen was the biggest it ever was, and comparable to Alonso's advantage. Since then Kimi has closed the gap, which would suggest that he simply got more comfortable with the Ferrari cars. Unless you think that Vettel has, for some reason, became a worse driver since 2015?
Even if Vettel and Alonso had the same gap to Kimi, why would that mean that Alonso and Hamilton come into question but not Vettel?
Simple, since we are doing teammate comparisons, Hamilton is roughly = Alonso based on 2007, and Vettel has a similar gap to Kimi as Alonso did, then Vettel = Alonso. Therefore if Vettel comes into question, then so does Alonso and thus Hamilton.

We have a clear grasp of how Alonso, Hamilton, Massa, Rosberg and Button compare relative to each other. We don't really know how the Red Bull academy drivers compare because we've never seen a direct battle. The closest comparison we have is both Vettel and Alonso competing against Kimi.

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Re: Max is Out-Performing Daniel (Believe it or Not)

Post by sandman1347 »

KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:Given the overall body of evidence Vettel is closer to Raikkonen on performance than Alonso was. Your reasoning here is actually very poor.
Vettel's advantage in 2015 over Raikkonen was the biggest it ever was, and comparable to Alonso's advantage. Since then Kimi has closed the gap, which would suggest that he simply got more comfortable with the Ferrari cars. Unless you think that Vettel has, for some reason, became a worse driver since 2015?
Even if Vettel and Alonso had the same gap to Kimi, why would that mean that Alonso and Hamilton come into question but not Vettel?
Simple, since we are doing teammate comparisons, Hamilton is roughly = Alonso based on 2007, and Vettel has a similar gap to Kimi as Alonso did, then Vettel = Alonso. Therefore if Vettel comes into question, then so does Alonso and thus Hamilton.

We have a clear grasp of how Alonso, Hamilton, Massa, Rosberg and Button compare relative to each other. We don't really know how the Red Bull academy drivers compare because we've never seen a direct battle. The closest comparison we have is both Vettel and Alonso competing against Kimi.
This is so absurdly nonsensical as to be comedy. So somehow the last year and a half of Vettel v Kimi are irrelevant? Only the data points that help your agenda are meaningful I suppose? There's so much wrong with what you've written here I wouldn't even know where to start to be honest...

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Re: Max is Out-Performing Daniel (Believe it or Not)

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:A bit overrating putting Ferrari as the fastest when one car couldn't qualify and one couldn't start due to engine failures.

I also think that Red Bull was no faster than Merc but Max made the difference yesterday, and Lewis unwilling to defend.
Lewis had no problems keeping Ricciardo behind.
Yeah in la la land that is probably true.
I think it is true. I've never seen Hamilton put up such a flimsy defence. I think he was satisfied to settle for second.
I was mainly replying to the Ferrari bit, regarding Hamilton he clearly couldn't keep pace with Verstappen so were into the land of saying that Verstappen himself was faster than Hamilton.

It's hard to imagine that Hamilton was basically not trying in the first stint when he was lapping anything up to a second a lap faster than his teammate, after the stops then I agree he settled for second place.
I don't think he ever tried to keep up with Verstappen. Look at how much extra pace he had when he needed it later. I'm not saying the Merc was miles quicker but I could believe it was as good.
I believe that was just a case of the Mercedes working better on the soft tyres but at that point he had already settled for second, who would deliberately in the first stint allow the leader to pull a 10 second gap, also do you really believe he had the pace to cruise whilst Ricciardo was driving flat out, that doesn't look good for Ricciardo?
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Re: Max is Out-Performing Daniel (Believe it or Not)

Post by KingVoid »

sandman1347 wrote:This is so absurdly nonsensical as to be comedy. So somehow the last year and a half of Vettel v Kimi are irrelevant? Only the data points that help your agenda are meaningful I suppose? There's so much wrong with what you've written here I wouldn't even know where to start to be honest...
Nope, what I'm saying is that in all likelihood, Kimi would have improved relative to Alonso if/when the Ferrari car improved and became easier to drive.

Was Hamilton not roughly evenly matched with Rosberg, before putting clear daylight between himself and Nico in 2014-16?

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Re: Max is Out-Performing Daniel (Believe it or Not)

Post by pokerman »

AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote: There's really no point to having a conversation with someone who's so out of touch with reality.
Feel free to have your beliefs, but expect people to call you out when you present them as facts.
Have a look at the Merc on soft and see for yourself.
Yeah no I've looked at the lap charts for the race (and for the three practice sessions for that matter) and Red Bull were definitely quicker all weekend.
No they weren't, have a look again, qualifying Red Bull was slower, second stint Lewis had pace to do more than he did
That's because his car was working better on the soft tyres, and as we are often reminded Mercedes have a better qualifying mode than Renault which explains part of the gap, also the conditions in qualifying suited the Mercedes better than in the race.
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Re: Max is Out-Performing Daniel (Believe it or Not)

Post by mcdo »

F1 MERCENARY wrote:The only 2 absolutes in racing are that the guy who crosses checkered flag wins and 2nd place is the first loser.
Unless it's Nico Rosberg
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pokerman
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Re: Max is Out-Performing Daniel (Believe it or Not)

Post by pokerman »

AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote: There's really no point to having a conversation with someone who's so out of touch with reality.
Feel free to have your beliefs, but expect people to call you out when you present them as facts.
Have a look at the Merc on soft and see for yourself.
That's the second stint so has nothing to do with what you were saying.
Are you serious? Why hasn't that got anything with the race?
It has got something to do with how the car works with different tyres, the Mercedes wasn't as good on the super softs.
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Re: Max is Out-Performing Daniel (Believe it or Not)

Post by pokerman »

Pullrod wrote:
AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote: There's really no point to having a conversation with someone who's so out of touch with reality.
Feel free to have your beliefs, but expect people to call you out when you present them as facts.
Have a look at the Merc on soft and see for yourself.
That's the second stint so has nothing to do with what you were saying.
Are you serious? Why hasn't that got anything with the race?
Because the 1st stint is where the race was won and Hamilton was plain slower than Verstappen.
After that he was 6 second behind and there were nothing he could do to catch and pass Verstappen.

Honest question: did you use live timing whilst watching?
He's just spouting whatever comes into his head.
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Re: Max is Out-Performing Daniel (Believe it or Not)

Post by pokerman »

Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote: Yeah in la la land that is probably true.
I think it is true. I've never seen Hamilton put up such a flimsy defence. I think he was satisfied to settle for second.
I was mainly replying to the Ferrari bit, regarding Hamilton he clearly couldn't keep pace with Verstappen so were into the land of saying that Verstappen himself was faster than Hamilton.

It's hard to imagine that Hamilton was basically not trying in the first stint when he was lapping anything up to a second a lap faster than his teammate, after the stops then I agree he settled for second place.
I don't think he ever tried to keep up with Verstappen. Look at how much extra pace he had when he needed it later. I'm not saying the Merc was miles quicker but I could believe it was as good.
Yeah, when it looked like Vettel might get by Ricciardo Lewis picked up the pace by up to a second a lap, going faster than Verstappen in the process. He settled down again once it was clear Vettel wasn't getting past. Lewis was clearly coasting for the most part
In the second stint yes.
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Re: Max is Out-Performing Daniel (Believe it or Not)

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:The scary thing about Verstappen is that he just turned 20. Hamilton was in Formula 3 at that age. Verstappen has already established himself as a top 3 driver on the grid. In fact, there's a good chance he's already as good as Lewis.

And F1 drivers usually peak around the age of 30. Max is only going to get better and better.

At this point Verstappen isn't a "promising youngster" anymore. He's a monster in the making.
Yeah it's hard to determine exactly how good he is because of the Red Bull bubble were they basically only compete against one another, Vettel being the first to venture into the outside world as such, but without doubt he's tier 1.
Vettel's advantage over Raikkonen in his first season at Ferrari was comparable to Alonso's advantage over Kimi. That puts a question on whether or not Alonso is tier 1, which puts a question on whether or not Hamilton is tier 1.
It depends if you call 0.08s comparable?
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Re: Max is Out-Performing Daniel (Believe it or Not)

Post by pokerman »

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
mcdo wrote:
AnRs wrote:A bit overrating putting Ferrari as the fastest when one car couldn't qualify and one couldn't start due to engine failures.

I also think that Red Bull was no faster than Merc but Max made the difference yesterday, and Lewis unwilling to defend.
Lewis had no problems keeping Ricciardo behind.
The Ferrari was the fastest car. It wasn't the best though. There's a difference
If you measure fastest as one lap speed, probably true, but if you judge probability for a race result due to the car it's a different picture
So nothing to debate then who ever wins the race has the fastest car.
Hang on a sec here pardner! LOL

Looking at the entirety of the race, it is unquestionable Vettel had the fastest car all day in Malaysia by a decent margin. While he finished as far back as he did, he had to fight ALL the way through the pack to do so and given how closely matched F1 cars are, in traffic with dirty air and impeding cars/drivers being a constant through his entire charge through the field, had there been none of that Vettel could theoretically have completed the 56 lap event in less time than every other driver and by a pretty solid figure.

Alonso cost Vettel several seconds and ultimately another shot to contest for the final podium position and throughout the race he had similar hiccups because it is simply the nature of the beast.

The only 2 absolutes in racing are that the guy who crosses checkered flag wins and 2nd place is the first loser.
I think you've got hold of the wrong end of the stick, the guy I'm replying to said that the Ferrari wasn't the fastest car because it didn't win the race.
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Re: Max is Out-Performing Daniel (Believe it or Not)

Post by sandman1347 »

KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:This is so absurdly nonsensical as to be comedy. So somehow the last year and a half of Vettel v Kimi are irrelevant? Only the data points that help your agenda are meaningful I suppose? There's so much wrong with what you've written here I wouldn't even know where to start to be honest...
Nope, what I'm saying is that in all likelihood, Kimi would have improved relative to Alonso if/when the Ferrari car improved and became easier to drive.

Was Hamilton not roughly evenly matched with Rosberg, before putting clear daylight between himself and Nico in 2014-16?
No he was not. The win Rosberg had at Silverstone was directly inherited from Hamilton's mechanical failure. In general the issues they had with the tires overshadowed everything they did that year but Hamilton was better on the year.

With regards to Raikkonen and how he stacked up to Vettel and Alonso; Raikkonen beat Vettel out in qualifying over the 2016 season. Alonso out-qualified Raikkonen 16-3 and beat him in the races 15-1 when both finished. Vettel did dominate Raikkonen in 2015 but the actual numbers were 15-4 in qualifying and 10-4 in races where both finished. Vettel was not as dominant over Kimi as Alonso was. More importantly, 2016 and 2017 have been quite a bit closer (especially in qualifying). In other words, the premise of your argument is false.

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Re: Max is Out-Performing Daniel (Believe it or Not)

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:Given the overall body of evidence Vettel is closer to Raikkonen on performance than Alonso was. Your reasoning here is actually very poor.
Vettel's advantage in 2015 over Raikkonen was the biggest it ever was, and comparable to Alonso's advantage. Since then Kimi has closed the gap, which would suggest that he simply got more comfortable with the Ferrari cars. Unless you think that Vettel has, for some reason, became a worse driver since 2015?
Even if Vettel and Alonso had the same gap to Kimi, why would that mean that Alonso and Hamilton come into question but not Vettel?
Simple, since we are doing teammate comparisons, Hamilton is roughly = Alonso based on 2007, and Vettel has a similar gap to Kimi as Alonso did, then Vettel = Alonso. Therefore if Vettel comes into question, then so does Alonso and thus Hamilton.

We have a clear grasp of how Alonso, Hamilton, Massa, Rosberg and Button compare relative to each other. We don't really know how the Red Bull academy drivers compare because we've never seen a direct battle. The closest comparison we have is both Vettel and Alonso competing against Kimi.
Knowing roughly this and knowing roughly that means basically though that you roughly don't really know.
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Re: Max is Out-Performing Daniel (Believe it or Not)

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:This is so absurdly nonsensical as to be comedy. So somehow the last year and a half of Vettel v Kimi are irrelevant? Only the data points that help your agenda are meaningful I suppose? There's so much wrong with what you've written here I wouldn't even know where to start to be honest...
Nope, what I'm saying is that in all likelihood, Kimi would have improved relative to Alonso if/when the Ferrari car improved and became easier to drive.

Was Hamilton not roughly evenly matched with Rosberg, before putting clear daylight between himself and Nico in 2014-16?
You can't predict that Kimi would have improved also you can't cherry pick 1 year when drivers have been teammates for 4 years.

The performance gap we saw between Alonso and Kimi was in fact quite predictable just by seeing how the 2 drivers performed against Massa.
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Re: Max is Out-Performing Daniel (Believe it or Not)

Post by KingVoid »

sandman1347 wrote:No he was not. The win Rosberg had at Silverstone was directly inherited from Hamilton's mechanical failure. In general the issues they had with the tires overshadowed everything they did that year but Hamilton was better on the year.
Rosberg had three mechanical failures in Australia, China and Hungary. His wing fell off in Korea too when he was in the process of overtaking Hamilton. The luck between the two was equal (if anything slightly harsher on Rosberg). Hamilton was at best slightly better.
With regards to Raikkonen and how he stacked up to Vettel and Alonso; Raikkonen beat Vettel out in qualifying over the 2016 season. Alonso out-qualified Raikkonen 16-3 and beat him in the races 15-1 when both finished. Vettel did dominate Raikkonen in 2015 but the actual numbers were 15-4 in qualifying and 10-4 in races where both finished. Vettel was not as dominant over Kimi as Alonso was
This is misleading, because Vettel was way ahead of Raikkonen when Kimi retired in Australia, Austria, Hungary and USA. In other words, it should really be 14-4. Vettel also started from the back in Canada (but was much quicker than Kimi in the race), and had a puncture on the final lap in Belgium (and was way ahead of Kimi). Reverse those two and the the score is 16-2.

Also, Alonso was extremely fortunate to finish ahead of Raikkonen in Spain (Kimi was ahead but Ferrari put Alonso on the better 3 stop strategy) and Monaco (Kimi was ahead before a puncture).

Yes, Vettel was just as dominant over Raikkonen in 2015 and Alonso was in 2014.
More importantly, 2016 and 2017 have been quite a bit closer (especially in qualifying). In other words, the premise of your argument is false.
This is why I believe Raikkonen would have also improved relative to Alonso if they had stayed together as teammates. If the car became better and easier to drive, Kimi would likely perform better relative to Alonso.

Do I have absolute conclusive evidence to prove it? No. Then again, if 2013 was the only season Hamilton and Rosberg had together, you wouldn't have any conclusive evidence to prove that Hamilton is better than Rosberg by anything but a smudge.
Last edited by KingVoid on Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Max is Out-Performing Daniel (Believe it or Not)

Post by Zoue »

sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:This is so absurdly nonsensical as to be comedy. So somehow the last year and a half of Vettel v Kimi are irrelevant? Only the data points that help your agenda are meaningful I suppose? There's so much wrong with what you've written here I wouldn't even know where to start to be honest...
Nope, what I'm saying is that in all likelihood, Kimi would have improved relative to Alonso if/when the Ferrari car improved and became easier to drive.

Was Hamilton not roughly evenly matched with Rosberg, before putting clear daylight between himself and Nico in 2014-16?
No he was not. The win Rosberg had at Silverstone was directly inherited from Hamilton's mechanical failure. In general the issues they had with the tires overshadowed everything they did that year but Hamilton was better on the year.

With regards to Raikkonen and how he stacked up to Vettel and Alonso; Raikkonen beat Vettel out in qualifying over the 2016 season. Alonso out-qualified Raikkonen 16-3 and beat him in the races 15-1 when both finished. Vettel did dominate Raikkonen in 2015 but the actual numbers were 15-4 in qualifying and 10-4 in races where both finished. Vettel was not as dominant over Kimi as Alonso was. More importantly, 2016 and 2017 have been quite a bit closer (especially in qualifying). In other words, the premise of your argument is false.
I don't think that's fair. 16-3 and 15-4 are as near to identical as makes no odds and their average qualifying gap was pretty close too IIRC. Race results can be affected by a number of things, for example Vettel's damaged front wing in Bahrain. All in all their records in their first year together with Kimi look pretty much the same

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Re: Max is Out-Performing Daniel (Believe it or Not)

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:No he was not. The win Rosberg had at Silverstone was directly inherited from Hamilton's mechanical failure. In general the issues they had with the tires overshadowed everything they did that year but Hamilton was better on the year.
Rosberg had three mechanical failures in Australia, China and Hungary. His wing fell off in Korea too when he was in the process of overtaking Hamilton. The luck between the two was equal (if anything slightly harsher on Rosberg). Hamilton was at best slightly better.
With regards to Raikkonen and how he stacked up to Vettel and Alonso; Raikkonen beat Vettel out in qualifying over the 2016 season. Alonso out-qualified Raikkonen 16-3 and beat him in the races 15-1 when both finished. Vettel did dominate Raikkonen in 2015 but the actual numbers were 15-4 in qualifying and 10-4 in races where both finished. Vettel was not as dominant over Kimi as Alonso was
This is misleading, because Vettel was way ahead of Raikkonen when Kimi retired in Australia, Austria, Hungary and USA. In other words, it should really be 14-4. Vettel also started from the back in Canada (but was much quicker than Kimi in the race), and had a puncture on the final lap in Belgium (and was way ahead of Kimi). Reverse those two and the the score is 16-2.

Also, Alonso was extremely fortunate to finish ahead of Raikkonen in Spain (Kimi was ahead but Ferrari put Alonso on the better 3 stop strategy) and Monaco (Kimi was ahead before a puncture).

Yes, Vettel was just as dominant over Raikkonen in 2015 and Alonso was in 2014.
More importantly, 2016 and 2017 have been quite a bit closer (especially in qualifying). In other words, the premise of your argument is false.
This is why I believe Raikkonen would have also improved relative to Alonso if they had stayed together as teammates. If the car became better and easier to drive, Kimi would likely perform better than Alonso.

Do I have absolute conclusive evidence to prove it? No. Then again, if 2013 was the only season Hamilton and Rosberg had together, you wouldn't have any conclusive evidence to prove that Hamilton is better than Rosberg by anything but a smudge.
This is why 1 year comparisons are not ideal unless you have correlation data to compare with, this basically is a problem you have with Vettel and Ricciardo but this is a problem you tend to have with Red Bull drivers.
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Re: Max is Out-Performing Daniel (Believe it or Not)

Post by pokerman »

Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:This is so absurdly nonsensical as to be comedy. So somehow the last year and a half of Vettel v Kimi are irrelevant? Only the data points that help your agenda are meaningful I suppose? There's so much wrong with what you've written here I wouldn't even know where to start to be honest...
Nope, what I'm saying is that in all likelihood, Kimi would have improved relative to Alonso if/when the Ferrari car improved and became easier to drive.

Was Hamilton not roughly evenly matched with Rosberg, before putting clear daylight between himself and Nico in 2014-16?
No he was not. The win Rosberg had at Silverstone was directly inherited from Hamilton's mechanical failure. In general the issues they had with the tires overshadowed everything they did that year but Hamilton was better on the year.

With regards to Raikkonen and how he stacked up to Vettel and Alonso; Raikkonen beat Vettel out in qualifying over the 2016 season. Alonso out-qualified Raikkonen 16-3 and beat him in the races 15-1 when both finished. Vettel did dominate Raikkonen in 2015 but the actual numbers were 15-4 in qualifying and 10-4 in races where both finished. Vettel was not as dominant over Kimi as Alonso was. More importantly, 2016 and 2017 have been quite a bit closer (especially in qualifying). In other words, the premise of your argument is false.
I don't think that's fair. 16-3 and 15-4 are as near to identical as makes no odds and their average qualifying gap was pretty close too IIRC. Race results can be affected by a number of things, for example Vettel's damaged front wing in Bahrain. All in all their records in their first year together with Kimi look pretty much the same
Vettel and Kimi are into their 3rd year now, all the data is relevant.
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Re: Max is Out-Performing Daniel (Believe it or Not)

Post by KingVoid »

pokerman wrote:Vettel and Kimi are into their 3rd year now, all the data is relevant.
Do you think that Vettel has became a worse driver since 2015, or has Raikkonen improved?

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Re: Max is Out-Performing Daniel (Believe it or Not)

Post by sandman1347 »

KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:No he was not. The win Rosberg had at Silverstone was directly inherited from Hamilton's mechanical failure. In general the issues they had with the tires overshadowed everything they did that year but Hamilton was better on the year.
Rosberg had three mechanical failures in Australia, China and Hungary. His wing fell off in Korea too when he was in the process of overtaking Hamilton. The luck between the two was equal (if anything slightly harsher on Rosberg). Hamilton was at best slightly better.
With regards to Raikkonen and how he stacked up to Vettel and Alonso; Raikkonen beat Vettel out in qualifying over the 2016 season. Alonso out-qualified Raikkonen 16-3 and beat him in the races 15-1 when both finished. Vettel did dominate Raikkonen in 2015 but the actual numbers were 15-4 in qualifying and 10-4 in races where both finished. Vettel was not as dominant over Kimi as Alonso was
This is misleading, because Vettel was way ahead of Raikkonen when Kimi retired in Australia, Austria, Hungary and USA. In other words, it should really be 14-4. Vettel also started from the back in Canada (but was much quicker than Kimi in the race), and had a puncture on the final lap in Belgium (and was way ahead of Kimi). Reverse those two and the the score is 16-2.

Also, Alonso was extremely fortunate to finish ahead of Raikkonen in Spain (Kimi was ahead but Ferrari put Alonso on the better 3 stop strategy) and Monaco (Kimi was ahead before a puncture).

Yes, Vettel was just as dominant over Raikkonen in 2015 and Alonso was in 2014.
More importantly, 2016 and 2017 have been quite a bit closer (especially in qualifying). In other words, the premise of your argument is false.
This is why I believe Raikkonen would have also improved relative to Alonso if they had stayed together as teammates. If the car became better and easier to drive, Kimi would likely perform better relative to Alonso.

Do I have absolute conclusive evidence to prove it? No. Then again, if 2013 was the only season Hamilton and Rosberg had together, you wouldn't have any conclusive evidence to prove that Hamilton is better than Rosberg by anything but a smudge.
Your whole argument hinges on what you think would have happened had Alonso stayed on at Ferrari. It's a very weak argument.

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Re: Max is Out-Performing Daniel (Believe it or Not)

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:Vettel and Kimi are into their 3rd year now, all the data is relevant.
Do you think that Vettel has became a worse driver since 2015, or has Raikkonen improved?
I believe there are fluctuations from year to year, the more data the more accurate the analysis, Kimi's best year was 2016 so that dispels the theory of Kimi getting better year on year.
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Re: Max is Out-Performing Daniel (Believe it or Not)

Post by Lotus49 »

KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:Vettel and Kimi are into their 3rd year now, all the data is relevant.
Do you think that Vettel has became a worse driver since 2015, or has Raikkonen improved?
Both in different periods.

Seb wasn't very good in 2016 I don't think, at least not up to the standard of 15 and 17. Also Kimi has undoubtedly looked more comfortable in periods throughout 2016 and 2017 than he did in 2015 and 14 but he's also looked just as bad and worse some weekends too.

It's not a constant. I actually think Kimi is doing better than Bottas is since Monaco overall but he's got a habit of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
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Re: Max is Out-Performing Daniel (Believe it or Not)

Post by Zoue »

pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:This is so absurdly nonsensical as to be comedy. So somehow the last year and a half of Vettel v Kimi are irrelevant? Only the data points that help your agenda are meaningful I suppose? There's so much wrong with what you've written here I wouldn't even know where to start to be honest...
Nope, what I'm saying is that in all likelihood, Kimi would have improved relative to Alonso if/when the Ferrari car improved and became easier to drive.

Was Hamilton not roughly evenly matched with Rosberg, before putting clear daylight between himself and Nico in 2014-16?
No he was not. The win Rosberg had at Silverstone was directly inherited from Hamilton's mechanical failure. In general the issues they had with the tires overshadowed everything they did that year but Hamilton was better on the year.

With regards to Raikkonen and how he stacked up to Vettel and Alonso; Raikkonen beat Vettel out in qualifying over the 2016 season. Alonso out-qualified Raikkonen 16-3 and beat him in the races 15-1 when both finished. Vettel did dominate Raikkonen in 2015 but the actual numbers were 15-4 in qualifying and 10-4 in races where both finished. Vettel was not as dominant over Kimi as Alonso was. More importantly, 2016 and 2017 have been quite a bit closer (especially in qualifying). In other words, the premise of your argument is false.
I don't think that's fair. 16-3 and 15-4 are as near to identical as makes no odds and their average qualifying gap was pretty close too IIRC. Race results can be affected by a number of things, for example Vettel's damaged front wing in Bahrain. All in all their records in their first year together with Kimi look pretty much the same
Vettel and Kimi are into their 3rd year now, all the data is relevant.
No, it isn't. The fairest comparison is to use a similar dataset, which is best represented by their first years together and in that one Vettel beat Kimi by an almost identical margin to Alonso.

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Re: Max is Out-Performing Daniel (Believe it or Not)

Post by Zoue »

Lotus49 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:Vettel and Kimi are into their 3rd year now, all the data is relevant.
Do you think that Vettel has became a worse driver since 2015, or has Raikkonen improved?
Both in different periods.

Seb wasn't very good in 2016 I don't think, at least not up to the standard of 15 and 17. Also Kimi has undoubtedly looked more comfortable in periods throughout 2016 and 2017 than he did in 2015 and 14 but he's also looked just as bad and worse some weekends too.

It's not a constant. I actually think Kimi is doing better than Bottas is since Monaco overall but he's got a habit of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Personally I think that, while Kimi has undoubtedly improved in qualifying, he's still pretty average in race pace. he can't seem to scale anywhere near the same heights

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Re: Max is Out-Performing Daniel (Believe it or Not)

Post by Lotus49 »

Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:Vettel and Kimi are into their 3rd year now, all the data is relevant.
Do you think that Vettel has became a worse driver since 2015, or has Raikkonen improved?
Both in different periods.

Seb wasn't very good in 2016 I don't think, at least not up to the standard of 15 and 17. Also Kimi has undoubtedly looked more comfortable in periods throughout 2016 and 2017 than he did in 2015 and 14 but he's also looked just as bad and worse some weekends too.

It's not a constant. I actually think Kimi is doing better than Bottas is since Monaco overall but he's got a habit of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Personally I think that, while Kimi has undoubtedly improved in qualifying, he's still pretty average in race pace. he can't seem to scale anywhere near the same heights
As his pomp or compared to Bottas?.

Agree if it's the former but I think he's doing well enough compared to Bottas in that regard since the summer.
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

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Re: Max is Out-Performing Daniel (Believe it or Not)

Post by Zoue »

Lotus49 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:Vettel and Kimi are into their 3rd year now, all the data is relevant.
Do you think that Vettel has became a worse driver since 2015, or has Raikkonen improved?
Both in different periods.

Seb wasn't very good in 2016 I don't think, at least not up to the standard of 15 and 17. Also Kimi has undoubtedly looked more comfortable in periods throughout 2016 and 2017 than he did in 2015 and 14 but he's also looked just as bad and worse some weekends too.

It's not a constant. I actually think Kimi is doing better than Bottas is since Monaco overall but he's got a habit of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Personally I think that, while Kimi has undoubtedly improved in qualifying, he's still pretty average in race pace. he can't seem to scale anywhere near the same heights
As his pomp or compared to Bottas?.

Agree if it's the former but I think he's doing well enough compared to Bottas in that regard since the summer.
Sorry, I'm struggling with "as his pomp?!" help me!

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Re: Max is Out-Performing Daniel (Believe it or Not)

Post by Lotus49 »

Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
KingVoid wrote: Do you think that Vettel has became a worse driver since 2015, or has Raikkonen improved?
Both in different periods.

Seb wasn't very good in 2016 I don't think, at least not up to the standard of 15 and 17. Also Kimi has undoubtedly looked more comfortable in periods throughout 2016 and 2017 than he did in 2015 and 14 but he's also looked just as bad and worse some weekends too.

It's not a constant. I actually think Kimi is doing better than Bottas is since Monaco overall but he's got a habit of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Personally I think that, while Kimi has undoubtedly improved in qualifying, he's still pretty average in race pace. he can't seem to scale anywhere near the same heights
As his pomp or compared to Bottas?.

Agree if it's the former but I think he's doing well enough compared to Bottas in that regard since the summer.
Sorry, I'm struggling with "as his pomp?!" help me!
Sorry, in his pomp. As in do you think he's struggling to reach the same heights race pace wise as he could in his prime(pomp)?. Reading it back it could also be you just meant the same heights as Seb?.

Seb,Bottas or Prime, choose your weapon. :D
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Re: Max is Out-Performing Daniel (Believe it or Not)

Post by pokerman »

Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote: Nope, what I'm saying is that in all likelihood, Kimi would have improved relative to Alonso if/when the Ferrari car improved and became easier to drive.

Was Hamilton not roughly evenly matched with Rosberg, before putting clear daylight between himself and Nico in 2014-16?
No he was not. The win Rosberg had at Silverstone was directly inherited from Hamilton's mechanical failure. In general the issues they had with the tires overshadowed everything they did that year but Hamilton was better on the year.

With regards to Raikkonen and how he stacked up to Vettel and Alonso; Raikkonen beat Vettel out in qualifying over the 2016 season. Alonso out-qualified Raikkonen 16-3 and beat him in the races 15-1 when both finished. Vettel did dominate Raikkonen in 2015 but the actual numbers were 15-4 in qualifying and 10-4 in races where both finished. Vettel was not as dominant over Kimi as Alonso was. More importantly, 2016 and 2017 have been quite a bit closer (especially in qualifying). In other words, the premise of your argument is false.
I don't think that's fair. 16-3 and 15-4 are as near to identical as makes no odds and their average qualifying gap was pretty close too IIRC. Race results can be affected by a number of things, for example Vettel's damaged front wing in Bahrain. All in all their records in their first year together with Kimi look pretty much the same
Vettel and Kimi are into their 3rd year now, all the data is relevant.
No, it isn't. The fairest comparison is to use a similar dataset, which is best represented by their first years together and in that one Vettel beat Kimi by an almost identical margin to Alonso.
No it's not, that's called cherry picking and even at that Alonso did better.
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Re: Max is Out-Performing Daniel (Believe it or Not)

Post by pokerman »

Lotus49 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:Vettel and Kimi are into their 3rd year now, all the data is relevant.
Do you think that Vettel has became a worse driver since 2015, or has Raikkonen improved?
Both in different periods.

Seb wasn't very good in 2016 I don't think, at least not up to the standard of 15 and 17. Also Kimi has undoubtedly looked more comfortable in periods throughout 2016 and 2017 than he did in 2015 and 14 but he's also looked just as bad and worse some weekends too.

It's not a constant. I actually think Kimi is doing better than Bottas is since Monaco overall but he's got a habit of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Personally I think that, while Kimi has undoubtedly improved in qualifying, he's still pretty average in race pace. he can't seem to scale anywhere near the same heights
As his pomp or compared to Bottas?.

Agree if it's the former but I think he's doing well enough compared to Bottas in that regard since the summer.
Because the Ferrari has been better
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Re: Max is Out-Performing Daniel (Believe it or Not)

Post by Lotus49 »

pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
KingVoid wrote: Do you think that Vettel has became a worse driver since 2015, or has Raikkonen improved?
Both in different periods.

Seb wasn't very good in 2016 I don't think, at least not up to the standard of 15 and 17. Also Kimi has undoubtedly looked more comfortable in periods throughout 2016 and 2017 than he did in 2015 and 14 but he's also looked just as bad and worse some weekends too.

It's not a constant. I actually think Kimi is doing better than Bottas is since Monaco overall but he's got a habit of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Personally I think that, while Kimi has undoubtedly improved in qualifying, he's still pretty average in race pace. he can't seem to scale anywhere near the same heights
As his pomp or compared to Bottas?.

Agree if it's the former but I think he's doing well enough compared to Bottas in that regard since the summer.
Because the Ferrari has been better
It has yeah but when the Mercedes was better we didn't excuse Kimi.
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
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Re: Max is Out-Performing Daniel (Believe it or Not)

Post by pokerman »

Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote: Both in different periods.

Seb wasn't very good in 2016 I don't think, at least not up to the standard of 15 and 17. Also Kimi has undoubtedly looked more comfortable in periods throughout 2016 and 2017 than he did in 2015 and 14 but he's also looked just as bad and worse some weekends too.

It's not a constant. I actually think Kimi is doing better than Bottas is since Monaco overall but he's got a habit of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Personally I think that, while Kimi has undoubtedly improved in qualifying, he's still pretty average in race pace. he can't seem to scale anywhere near the same heights
As his pomp or compared to Bottas?.

Agree if it's the former but I think he's doing well enough compared to Bottas in that regard since the summer.
Because the Ferrari has been better
It has yeah but when the Mercedes was better we didn't excuse Kimi.
I think that was more of a case of the cars being quite equal and thinking were is Kimi?

It's sort of a strange argument to be making that Kimi is doing better because Bottas is getting hammered by Hamilton when Kimi himself is getting hammered by Vettel. :)
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Re: Max is Out-Performing Daniel (Believe it or Not)

Post by Lotus49 »

pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Zoue wrote: Personally I think that, while Kimi has undoubtedly improved in qualifying, he's still pretty average in race pace. he can't seem to scale anywhere near the same heights
As his pomp or compared to Bottas?.

Agree if it's the former but I think he's doing well enough compared to Bottas in that regard since the summer.
Because the Ferrari has been better
It has yeah but when the Mercedes was better we didn't excuse Kimi.
I think that was more of a case of the cars being quite equal and thinking were is Kimi?

It's sort of a strange argument to be making that Kimi is doing better because Bottas is getting hammered by Hamilton when Kimi himself is getting hammered by Vettel. :)
So the cars have only ever been equal or Ferrari better?.

What's the respective quali and h2h stats since Monaco?. Score and avg gap for quali if you've got it. Maybe I'm wrong but it just feels like Kimi has been far closer to troubling Seb than Bottas has to Lewis. (I've no argument that Bottas was much better in the beginning of the season).
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
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Re: Max is Out-Performing Daniel (Believe it or Not)

Post by sandman1347 »

Lotus49 wrote:
So the cars have only ever been equal or Ferrari better?.

What's the respective quali and h2h stats since Monaco?. Score and avg gap for quali if you've got it. Maybe I'm wrong but it just feels like Kimi has been far closer to troubling Seb than Bottas has to Lewis. (I've no argument that Bottas was much better in the beginning of the season).
The difference really is in what happens to them on a bad weekend. Kimi generally walks away empty handed when things go wrong while Bottas has had at least 3 podiums in races where he has been terrible.

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