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DirtyMike wrote: Look at BUEMI's dominance of Formula E

Formula E is a bit like F1, in that there are marked car differences too. Somewhat less than F1, but still there. So being in the best car is worth something. Other than that, it's a driver field mostly composed of drivers that are either not good for F1 anymore or not good enough for F1. Good drivers nonetheless, but not F1 class.

So that doesn't really prove anything...

mds wrote:

DirtyMike wrote: Look at BUEMI's dominance of Formula E

Formula E is a bit like F1, in that there are marked car differences too. Somewhat less than F1, but still there. So being in the best car is worth something. Other than that, it's a driver field mostly composed of drivers that are either not good for F1 anymore or not good enough for F1. Good drivers nonetheless, but not F1 class.

So that doesn't really prove anything...

Agreed that it's not the pinnacle of motorsport, but he's managed to WIN almost half the races he's started (12/28)
whilst his teammate for all those years has only 2. This would suggest he's beating those 2nd tier drivers around him by more than enough to warrant the thought he would be doing VERY well in F1. (JEV, DiGrassi, Algersuari, D'ambrossio etc.)

I'd say it proves SOMETHING at least , no?

Its pretty clear that Buemi is in the best team/car of Formula E, eDams, and Nico Prost is a very average driver that is there as 2nd driver only because of being the son of Alain and a similar happens in Audi Abt, second best car, good driver as nº1 and the 2nd driver is another average one and the son of the team principal

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

lamo wrote:Ricciardo is in trouble the last few races, all lucky podiums and a very lucky win. He really needs to up his game if he wants to remain a top driver and be in the running for the big seats. Max is starting to dominate him but the luck isn't falling for him, but that's not so important, everybody is seeing what is happening in RBR and who is the better driver at the moment. Its Rosberg - Hamilton 2016 scenario.

I really can't understand why anyone can think that! How is 2 races and 41 laps together in the races enough to confirm that? It is nowhere near enough time. Verstappen may be better in qualifying, he may have been better in the 1 wet race they both had. Ricciardo looked very good in the race in Monaco. Although Ricciardo has been lucky, he has also performed very well and we have only had the first few laps to see them against each other. Just because Verstappen has had better starts more often than not and has had 1 better whole race just isn't enough proof based on how much better Ricciardo was last year. Until we get the chance to actually get evidence by them getting a chance to race eachother several times, I'm going to say Ricciardo is still the better, more complete driver.

But I guess I should let everyone have their own views. It just baffles me how we can decide who is overall better when it is the race that counts and we have hardly ever seen both of them at the same time.

Max hasn't just had better starts.

He has out qualified Ricciardo in the last 4 races and been well ahead of him in the three races he DNF'd in. Monaco he lost out to strategy gamble, again whilst ahead. Red Bull split the cars to undercut and overcut and the over cut was quicker.

A.J. wrote:

lamo wrote:Ricciardo is in trouble the last few races, all lucky podiums and a very lucky win. He really needs to up his game if he wants to remain a top driver and be in the running for the big seats. Max is starting to dominate him but the luck isn't falling for him, but that's not so important, everybody is seeing what is happening in RBR and who is the better driver at the moment. Its Rosberg - Hamilton 2016 scenario.

At this point last year Rosberg was clearly the better driver

Probably right at this point, but then Hamilton won 6 races in 7, a run that was only halted by the Spa engine penalties and P20 start. But my comments was in regards to the season overall.

Over the first 8 races. Hamiltons only fault would also be his starts in two races, he was 4-2 up in qualifying and one of those was Monaco were he only got one disjointed run due to breaking down - so probably should have been 5-1 up. He had had 2 engine failures and 2 collisions at the first turn. Similar to what has happened to Max this year.

Read somewhere that Max and Jos think Red Bull is a dead loss and they want to get into a Ferrari / Merc. Seats are available in those teams (potentially) but I thought Max signed for Red Bull not long ago. Surely they wouldn't let him go, even for mega money?

lamo wrote:

A.J. wrote:

lamo wrote:Ricciardo is in trouble the last few races, all lucky podiums and a very lucky win. He really needs to up his game if he wants to remain a top driver and be in the running for the big seats. Max is starting to dominate him but the luck isn't falling for him, but that's not so important, everybody is seeing what is happening in RBR and who is the better driver at the moment. Its Rosberg - Hamilton 2016 scenario.

At this point last year Rosberg was clearly the better driver

Probably right at this point, but then Hamilton won 6 races in 7, a run that was only halted by the Spa engine penalties and P20 start. But my comments was in regards to the season overall.

Over the first 8 races. Hamiltons only fault would also be his starts in two races, he was 4-2 up in qualifying and one of those was Monaco were he only got one disjointed run due to breaking down - so probably should have been 5-1 up. He had had 2 engine failures and 2 collisions at the first turn. Similar to what has happened to Max this year.

Which is exactly what was said!

Without retirements Verstappen would probably have around 128 points and be in this championship fight. Pretty good going.

lamo wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

lamo wrote:Ricciardo is in trouble the last few races, all lucky podiums and a very lucky win. He really needs to up his game if he wants to remain a top driver and be in the running for the big seats. Max is starting to dominate him but the luck isn't falling for him, but that's not so important, everybody is seeing what is happening in RBR and who is the better driver at the moment. Its Rosberg - Hamilton 2016 scenario.

I really can't understand why anyone can think that! How is 2 races and 41 laps together in the races enough to confirm that? It is nowhere near enough time. Verstappen may be better in qualifying, he may have been better in the 1 wet race they both had. Ricciardo looked very good in the race in Monaco. Although Ricciardo has been lucky, he has also performed very well and we have only had the first few laps to see them against each other. Just because Verstappen has had better starts more often than not and has had 1 better whole race just isn't enough proof based on how much better Ricciardo was last year. Until we get the chance to actually get evidence by them getting a chance to race eachother several times, I'm going to say Ricciardo is still the better, more complete driver.

But I guess I should let everyone have their own views. It just baffles me how we can decide who is overall better when it is the race that counts and we have hardly ever seen both of them at the same time.

Max hasn't just had better starts.

He has out qualified Ricciardo in the last 4 races and been well ahead of him in the three races he DNF'd in. Monaco he lost out to strategy gamble, again whilst ahead. Red Bull split the cars to undercut and overcut and the over cut was quicker.

Right.

Bahrain, 0.7 seconds ahead of Ricciardo before he pitted on lap 11. He then retired on lap 12. So while he was ahead before which clearly wasn't well ahead, the fact is that he was behind at the time he retired. He'd had a better start and would have been ahead before he retired but he wasn't well ahead in the slightest.

Canada, he was 5 seconds ahead of Ricciardo. That is quite a lot for that little time in just 13 laps but we have no idea if Ricciardo could have caught up later or Verstappen will have continued to have the same pace he started with. It was just Verstappen's start. Last year, Ricciardo often made the 2nd half of the race look really impressive. How do we know that all his podium finished would not have been better driving than Verstappen would have managed? We haven't yet seen. So we do not know.

Baku, Ricciardo was around 6 or 7 seconds behind on lap 6. But he had some problems with the air intake or something so had to pit.



So in the first of the 3 I mentioned, there was barely anything between them. In the next, Verstappen did have the better start but wasn't exactly well ahead. And Baku, it was a little unfair to compare them as Ricciardo very quickly had problems. Considering Ricciardo started 10th, his start was hardly any worse than Verstappen's and I'd say their pace over was the first few laps was about the same. But clearly Ricciardo made a mess of qualifying.

Rockie wrote:

lamo wrote:

A.J. wrote:

lamo wrote:Ricciardo is in trouble the last few races, all lucky podiums and a very lucky win. He really needs to up his game if he wants to remain a top driver and be in the running for the big seats. Max is starting to dominate him but the luck isn't falling for him, but that's not so important, everybody is seeing what is happening in RBR and who is the better driver at the moment. Its Rosberg - Hamilton 2016 scenario.

At this point last year Rosberg was clearly the better driver

Probably right at this point, but then Hamilton won 6 races in 7, a run that was only halted by the Spa engine penalties and P20 start. But my comments was in regards to the season overall.

Over the first 8 races. Hamiltons only fault would also be his starts in two races, he was 4-2 up in qualifying and one of those was Monaco were he only got one disjointed run due to breaking down - so probably should have been 5-1 up. He had had 2 engine failures and 2 collisions at the first turn. Similar to what has happened to Max this year.

Which is exactly what was said!

Which is debatable. Rosberg had out qualified Hamilton twice at this point when Hamilton didn't break down during qualifying, once in Monaco when Hamilton broke down and got one run and once in Baku when Hamilton crashed whilst being 0.4 up on the pole lap. Rosberg was pretty slow in 2016. But importantly, reliable. Just like Dan this year.

mikeyg123 wrote:Without retirements Verstappen would probably have around 128 points and be in this championship fight. Pretty good going.

I may be missing something obvious myself but I don't understand how this could be possible.

Verstappen has 45 points. If he won every single race he retired in instead, he would have 119. I don't think there is a chance he will have won in Bahrain and or Spain. Ricciardo was 20 seconds off 3rd place in Bahrain. Verstappen may have had a very small chance of getting 3rd but it was unlikely. He'd have needed to beat Ricciardo by 40 seconds for the win.
In spain, Ricciardo was over 70 seconds behind Vettel who was 2nd. Even if people do say he is better than Ricciardo, I don't think he could have pulled 70 seconds in front to get 2nd. I'd say he could very likely have won in Baku though.


So I think the best absolute best Verstappen could have got in these 3 races he retired in is 3rd, 3rd and 1st. That would leave him with 100. If he got the luck he missed out on in Monaco, that would have given him a few extra but I still have no clue where 128 comes from.

Red Bulls pace has clearly been much worse than the Mercedes and Ferrari and Mercedes so the good results Ricciardo have got have certainly been a little lucky as they were often down to scruffy drives from either the top drivers or retirements.

I'd say a more realistic number of points Verstappen would have would be around 90 to 100 if it wasn't for his back luck.

Like I said, I could be missing something obvious but I'm not sure where that high number came from.



Edit:
Man how I didn't realise I was missing something! Canada But even adding 15 points onto around 100 doesn't get close to 128 points. 2nd place will have been very unlikely as Ricciardo himself was well behind Bottas, I don't think Bottas will have been behind Verstappen the whole race and we don't even know if Ricciardo could have recovered later and beaten Verstappen anyway. 3rd was the best he could hope for IMO. So now, I'd say a more realistic amount of points Verstappen would probably have without reliability problems is just around 105. That may look close to Bottas but if we take away his retirement, that would take him up by at leased 15 points. But if say Ricciardo didn't retire in the 2 races he did, I think that would also possibly allow him to get a little more points than he has now. But if Verstappen had been in more races, I guess the results could have been very different.

F1 MERCENARY wrote:An easy look back the races starting with the Spanish GP last year and outside Monaco where Ricciardo was untouchable, Max has had the edge over Ricciardo. And though I think Verstappen was a bit over the edge in several instances, when he was pulling off some of those moves, he was more often than not comfortably ahead of Ricciardo. Mind you he was thrust into the senior team in a moments notice and into a completely new car and was immediately on pace and won his maiden race in such a scenario.

Hypoerbole?... I don't think so.

Of course it's hyperbole if you think outside Monaco Max has been comfortably ahead since they've been partnered. He was out-qualified over those 17 races last year, finished behind more often, had less podiums and scored less points.

This year Max has looked better though, he's up 5-3(2 really, China shouldn't count) in Qualy and has been ahead and quicker in most races before his troubles hit.

But even this year it's been overblown how badly Dan is doing, they've had two full races where they both finished and in China Max looked considerably quicker in the first half and Dan in the second half and the gap at the flag was 0.9s. In Monaco Dan didn't fudge his pit stop and made the over cut work with some rapid laps and the gap at the flag was 2.9s

1-1 and both close at the flag and that's it as far as facts go, everything else is hypothetical based on a handful of laps each race.

Lotus49 wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:An easy look back the races starting with the Spanish GP last year and outside Monaco where Ricciardo was untouchable, Max has had the edge over Ricciardo. And though I think Verstappen was a bit over the edge in several instances, when he was pulling off some of those moves, he was more often than not comfortably ahead of Ricciardo. Mind you he was thrust into the senior team in a moments notice and into a completely new car and was immediately on pace and won his maiden race in such a scenario.

Hypoerbole?... I don't think so.

Of course it's hyperbole if you think outside Monaco Max has been comfortably ahead since they've been partnered. He was out-qualified over those 17 races last year, finished behind more often, had less podiums and scored less points.

This year Max has looked better though, he's up 5-3(2 really, China shouldn't count) in Qualy and has been ahead and quicker in most races before his troubles hit.

But even this year it's been overblown how badly Dan is doing, they've had two full races where they both finished and in China Max looked considerably quicker in the first half and Dan in the second half and the gap at the flag was 0.9s. In Monaco Dan didn't fudge his pit stop and made the over cut work with some rapid laps and the gap at the flag was 2.9s

1-1 and both close at the flag and that's it as far as facts go, everything else is hypothetical based on a handful of laps each race.

There complete time together as an average Ricciardo has been better IMO. Even this year Verstappen is looking better but the gap is a slight one.

mikeyg123 wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:An easy look back the races starting with the Spanish GP last year and outside Monaco where Ricciardo was untouchable, Max has had the edge over Ricciardo. And though I think Verstappen was a bit over the edge in several instances, when he was pulling off some of those moves, he was more often than not comfortably ahead of Ricciardo. Mind you he was thrust into the senior team in a moments notice and into a completely new car and was immediately on pace and won his maiden race in such a scenario.

Hypoerbole?... I don't think so.

Of course it's hyperbole if you think outside Monaco Max has been comfortably ahead since they've been partnered. He was out-qualified over those 17 races last year, finished behind more often, had less podiums and scored less points.

This year Max has looked better though, he's up 5-3(2 really, China shouldn't count) in Qualy and has been ahead and quicker in most races before his troubles hit.

But even this year it's been overblown how badly Dan is doing, they've had two full races where they both finished and in China Max looked considerably quicker in the first half and Dan in the second half and the gap at the flag was 0.9s. In Monaco Dan didn't fudge his pit stop and made the over cut work with some rapid laps and the gap at the flag was 2.9s

1-1 and both close at the flag and that's it as far as facts go, everything else is hypothetical based on a handful of laps each race.

There complete time together as an average Ricciardo has been better IMO. Even this year Verstappen is looking better but the gap is a slight one.

Agree.

This year I do think Dan needs to go up a gear now (If he can), especially in Q. There's been a couple of momentum shifts between these pair over their partnership and I think Dan needs another one soon.

Lotus49 wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:An easy look back the races starting with the Spanish GP last year and outside Monaco where Ricciardo was untouchable, Max has had the edge over Ricciardo. And though I think Verstappen was a bit over the edge in several instances, when he was pulling off some of those moves, he was more often than not comfortably ahead of Ricciardo. Mind you he was thrust into the senior team in a moments notice and into a completely new car and was immediately on pace and won his maiden race in such a scenario.

Hypoerbole?... I don't think so.

Of course it's hyperbole if you think outside Monaco Max has been comfortably ahead since they've been partnered. He was out-qualified over those 17 races last year, finished behind more often, had less podiums and scored less points.

This year Max has looked better though, he's up 5-3(2 really, China shouldn't count) in Qualy and has been ahead and quicker in most races before his troubles hit.

But even this year it's been overblown how badly Dan is doing, they've had two full races where they both finished and in China Max looked considerably quicker in the first half and Dan in the second half and the gap at the flag was 0.9s. In Monaco Dan didn't fudge his pit stop and made the over cut work with some rapid laps and the gap at the flag was 2.9s

1-1 and both close at the flag and that's it as far as facts go, everything else is hypothetical based on a handful of laps each race.

Exactly what I've been trying to point out. 2 full races and around 41 laps of all the other race starts put together out of nearly half the season isn't enough to decide who is overall the better driver.

I agree with the general perception that Daniel is starting to fall a bit behind Max this season (especially in quali/race starts), even though the points don't show it - but I also have a feeling that now that the Redbull is starting to come good, so will Ricciardo.

Lotus49 wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:An easy look back the races starting with the Spanish GP last year and outside Monaco where Ricciardo was untouchable, Max has had the edge over Ricciardo. And though I think Verstappen was a bit over the edge in several instances, when he was pulling off some of those moves, he was more often than not comfortably ahead of Ricciardo. Mind you he was thrust into the senior team in a moments notice and into a completely new car and was immediately on pace and won his maiden race in such a scenario.

Hypoerbole?... I don't think so.

Of course it's hyperbole if you think outside Monaco Max has been comfortably ahead since they've been partnered. He was out-qualified over those 17 races last year, finished behind more often, had less podiums and scored less points.

This year Max has looked better though, he's up 5-3(2 really, China shouldn't count) in Qualy and has been ahead and quicker in most races before his troubles hit.

But even this year it's been overblown how badly Dan is doing, they've had two full races where they both finished and in China Max looked considerably quicker in the first half and Dan in the second half and the gap at the flag was 0.9s. In Monaco Dan didn't fudge his pit stop and made the over cut work with some rapid laps and the gap at the flag was 2.9s

1-1 and both close at the flag and that's it as far as facts go, everything else is hypothetical based on a handful of laps each race.

Hang on... with regards to last year. Max was dropped into a car he had never driven in a new team, mid season with no testing. Compared to a settled Ricciardo. That is not really a fair comparison and Max still held his own.

Yes Ricciardo did out qualify Max, but the score went like this....
5-0
5-1
7-1
7-2
9-2
9-4
10-4
10-6
11-6

Ricciardo was 9-2 up and from that point on lost to Max 4-2 over the last 6 races. Max got stronger and stronger after just being dropped into a car mid season. He has continued were he left off in 2016. His race pace was up with Ricciardo from day 1 and improved through the year generally.

I actually don't like Max and a bit of a Ricciardo fan but that is the way it is unfortunately.

lamo wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:An easy look back the races starting with the Spanish GP last year and outside Monaco where Ricciardo was untouchable, Max has had the edge over Ricciardo. And though I think Verstappen was a bit over the edge in several instances, when he was pulling off some of those moves, he was more often than not comfortably ahead of Ricciardo. Mind you he was thrust into the senior team in a moments notice and into a completely new car and was immediately on pace and won his maiden race in such a scenario.

Hypoerbole?... I don't think so.

Of course it's hyperbole if you think outside Monaco Max has been comfortably ahead since they've been partnered. He was out-qualified over those 17 races last year, finished behind more often, had less podiums and scored less points.

This year Max has looked better though, he's up 5-3(2 really, China shouldn't count) in Qualy and has been ahead and quicker in most races before his troubles hit.

But even this year it's been overblown how badly Dan is doing, they've had two full races where they both finished and in China Max looked considerably quicker in the first half and Dan in the second half and the gap at the flag was 0.9s. In Monaco Dan didn't fudge his pit stop and made the over cut work with some rapid laps and the gap at the flag was 2.9s

1-1 and both close at the flag and that's it as far as facts go, everything else is hypothetical based on a handful of laps each race.

Hang on... with regards to last year. Max was dropped into a car he had never driven in a new team, mid season with no testing. Compared to a settled Ricciardo. That is not really a fair comparison and Max still held his own.

Yes Ricciardo did out qualify Max, but the score went like this....
5-0
5-1
7-1
7-2
9-2
9-4
10-4
10-6
11-6

Ricciardo was 9-2 up and from that point on lost to Max 4-2 over the last 6 races. Max got stronger and stronger after just being dropped into a car mid season. He has continued were he left off in 2016. His race pace was up with Ricciardo from day 1 and improved through the year generally.

I actually don't like Max and a bit of a Ricciardo fan but that is the way it is unfortunately.

Agree 100% - Max was starting to become mega towards the end of last year (still love watching the Brazilian GP highlights - sure he got lucky with the wall, but he was also showing up the eventual WDC in an arguably inferior machine that day). This year I feel their race pace is evenly matched again, but Max has sorted himself out in quali, and takes just that extra risk when it comes to the starts (which can also end in tears as we saw in Spain).

lamo wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:An easy look back the races starting with the Spanish GP last year and outside Monaco where Ricciardo was untouchable, Max has had the edge over Ricciardo. And though I think Verstappen was a bit over the edge in several instances, when he was pulling off some of those moves, he was more often than not comfortably ahead of Ricciardo. Mind you he was thrust into the senior team in a moments notice and into a completely new car and was immediately on pace and won his maiden race in such a scenario.

Hypoerbole?... I don't think so.

Of course it's hyperbole if you think outside Monaco Max has been comfortably ahead since they've been partnered. He was out-qualified over those 17 races last year, finished behind more often, had less podiums and scored less points.

This year Max has looked better though, he's up 5-3(2 really, China shouldn't count) in Qualy and has been ahead and quicker in most races before his troubles hit.

But even this year it's been overblown how badly Dan is doing, they've had two full races where they both finished and in China Max looked considerably quicker in the first half and Dan in the second half and the gap at the flag was 0.9s. In Monaco Dan didn't fudge his pit stop and made the over cut work with some rapid laps and the gap at the flag was 2.9s

1-1 and both close at the flag and that's it as far as facts go, everything else is hypothetical based on a handful of laps each race.

Hang on... with regards to last year. Max was dropped into a car he had never driven in a new team, mid season with no testing. Compared to a settled Ricciardo. That is not really a fair comparison and Max still held his own.

Yes Ricciardo did out qualify Max, but the score went like this....
5-0
5-1
7-1
7-2
9-2
9-4
10-4
10-6
11-6

Ricciardo was 9-2 up and from that point on lost to Max 4-2 over the last 6 races. Max got stronger and stronger after just being dropped into a car mid season. He has continued were he left off in 2016. His race pace was up with Ricciardo from day 1 and improved through the year generally.

I actually don't like Max and a bit of a Ricciardo fan but that is the way it is unfortunately.

I didn't chose the comparison, it was in response to someone claiming outside Monaco Max was comfortably ahead usually. That just wasn't the case at all.

There's no doubt Max got stronger in Q but he still lost out, and those last 6 qualies include Japan where Dan had an engine issue but was only 0.062 behind, I think he'd have taken that one so it's not as impressive as it looks and would likely have been 3-3.

I might aim for a even better pointless post. My thought:

In past RB have been speculated to give a car more attention to the driver they want to be champion. That attention may result in a faster car but reduced reliability.

If we're speculating wildly about reliability then i'd say Max's fondness for the Kerbs make a more likely theory than anything RB are doing. Twice this season he's broken his floor and bargeboards on them and on Saturday his issue in Q3 was said to be a gear sync problem brought on by hitting a Kerb.

Coincidence I'm sure but during the race we went on board with Max during the fight with Perez and he smacked a kerb very hard not long before he retired. Don't know if anyone's got a video but it was a fair old whack.

Shouldn't be happening even if it was the cause and I doubt it was but thought I'd mention it after hearing Marko's comment about the gear sync.

Lotus49 wrote:

lamo wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:An easy look back the races starting with the Spanish GP last year and outside Monaco where Ricciardo was untouchable, Max has had the edge over Ricciardo. And though I think Verstappen was a bit over the edge in several instances, when he was pulling off some of those moves, he was more often than not comfortably ahead of Ricciardo. Mind you he was thrust into the senior team in a moments notice and into a completely new car and was immediately on pace and won his maiden race in such a scenario.

Hypoerbole?... I don't think so.

Of course it's hyperbole if you think outside Monaco Max has been comfortably ahead since they've been partnered. He was out-qualified over those 17 races last year, finished behind more often, had less podiums and scored less points.

This year Max has looked better though, he's up 5-3(2 really, China shouldn't count) in Qualy and has been ahead and quicker in most races before his troubles hit.

But even this year it's been overblown how badly Dan is doing, they've had two full races where they both finished and in China Max looked considerably quicker in the first half and Dan in the second half and the gap at the flag was 0.9s. In Monaco Dan didn't fudge his pit stop and made the over cut work with some rapid laps and the gap at the flag was 2.9s

1-1 and both close at the flag and that's it as far as facts go, everything else is hypothetical based on a handful of laps each race.

Hang on... with regards to last year. Max was dropped into a car he had never driven in a new team, mid season with no testing. Compared to a settled Ricciardo. That is not really a fair comparison and Max still held his own.

Yes Ricciardo did out qualify Max, but the score went like this....
5-0
5-1
7-1
7-2
9-2
9-4
10-4
10-6
11-6

Ricciardo was 9-2 up and from that point on lost to Max 4-2 over the last 6 races. Max got stronger and stronger after just being dropped into a car mid season. He has continued were he left off in 2016. His race pace was up with Ricciardo from day 1 and improved through the year generally.

I actually don't like Max and a bit of a Ricciardo fan but that is the way it is unfortunately.

I didn't chose the comparison, it was in response to someone claiming outside Monaco Max was comfortably ahead usually. That just wasn't the case at all.

There's no doubt Max got stronger in Q but he still lost out, and those last 6 qualies include Japan where Dan had an engine issue but was only 0.062 behind, I think he'd have taken that one so it's not as impressive as it looks and would likely have been 3-3.

All whilst Max was in a part season vs an experienced team mate who had the team built around him the last couple of seasons and thought to be a top 3-4 driver on the grid. 2017 on wards is a fair comparison between the the two, new rules, new cars, lets see how this ends up. If Max beats his team mate every year and becomes an F1 great, I don't think it will be right to say "oh but he lost to Ricciardo in 2016" due to the context. Given the context, I think he had a better 2016 than Ricciardo.

mikeyg123 wrote:Without retirements Verstappen would probably have around 128 points and be in this championship fight. Pretty good going.

Not a fan of Max in any way but he's been the driver that has impressed me the most this season.

lamo wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

lamo wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:An easy look back the races starting with the Spanish GP last year and outside Monaco where Ricciardo was untouchable, Max has had the edge over Ricciardo. And though I think Verstappen was a bit over the edge in several instances, when he was pulling off some of those moves, he was more often than not comfortably ahead of Ricciardo. Mind you he was thrust into the senior team in a moments notice and into a completely new car and was immediately on pace and won his maiden race in such a scenario.

Hypoerbole?... I don't think so.

Of course it's hyperbole if you think outside Monaco Max has been comfortably ahead since they've been partnered. He was out-qualified over those 17 races last year, finished behind more often, had less podiums and scored less points.

This year Max has looked better though, he's up 5-3(2 really, China shouldn't count) in Qualy and has been ahead and quicker in most races before his troubles hit.

But even this year it's been overblown how badly Dan is doing, they've had two full races where they both finished and in China Max looked considerably quicker in the first half and Dan in the second half and the gap at the flag was 0.9s. In Monaco Dan didn't fudge his pit stop and made the over cut work with some rapid laps and the gap at the flag was 2.9s

1-1 and both close at the flag and that's it as far as facts go, everything else is hypothetical based on a handful of laps each race.

Hang on... with regards to last year. Max was dropped into a car he had never driven in a new team, mid season with no testing. Compared to a settled Ricciardo. That is not really a fair comparison and Max still held his own.

Yes Ricciardo did out qualify Max, but the score went like this....
5-0
5-1
7-1
7-2
9-2
9-4
10-4
10-6
11-6

Ricciardo was 9-2 up and from that point on lost to Max 4-2 over the last 6 races. Max got stronger and stronger after just being dropped into a car mid season. He has continued were he left off in 2016. His race pace was up with Ricciardo from day 1 and improved through the year generally.

I actually don't like Max and a bit of a Ricciardo fan but that is the way it is unfortunately.

I didn't chose the comparison, it was in response to someone claiming outside Monaco Max was comfortably ahead usually. That just wasn't the case at all.

There's no doubt Max got stronger in Q but he still lost out, and those last 6 qualies include Japan where Dan had an engine issue but was only 0.062 behind, I think he'd have taken that one so it's not as impressive as it looks and would likely have been 3-3.

All whilst Max was in a part season vs an experienced team mate who had the team built around him the last couple of seasons and thought to be a top 3-4 driver on the grid. 2017 on wards is a fair comparison between the the two, new rules, new cars, lets see how this ends up. If Max beats his team mate every year and becomes an F1 great, I don't think it will be right to say "oh but he lost to Ricciardo in 2016" due to the context. Given the context, I think he had a better 2016 than Ricciardo.

You were expecting Dan to post a shut-out?. It only being 3/4 of a season isn't his problem and Max is obviously a top tier driver so I'm not sure why it's being made out to be a negative that it was reasonably close. He got the job done in every measurable department, job done as far as he's concerned.

Agree 2017 is more a fair comparison but that doesn't give us license to re-write what actually happened in 2016 or twist it to fit a narrative we prefer. We can chose who we were most impressed by of course but we can't chose who won, who was ahead more often than not, who won the qualy battle etc...

Given the results against each other and Dan's first 4 races I disagree, I thought he or Lewis were the drivers of the year. Max did great and coped with the switch admirably but fell a little short of those two and Alonso for me across the season as a whole.

This year Max is in charge so far for me.

Lotus49 wrote:If we're speculating wildly about reliability then i'd say Max's fondness for the Kerbs make a more likely theory than anything RB are doing. Twice this season he's broken his floor and bargeboards on them and on Saturday his issue in Q3 was said to be a gear sync problem brought on by hitting a Kerb.

Coincidence I'm sure but during the race we went on board with Max during the fight with Perez and he smacked a kerb very hard not long before he retired. Don't know if anyone's got a video but it was a fair old whack.

Shouldn't be happening even if it was the cause and I doubt it was but thought I'd mention it after hearing Marko's comment about the gear sync.

Well hitting the kerb was what made Maldonado retire in Spa 2015 so driving over them can sometimes have an affect, even if it isn't always instant.

TheGiantHogweed wrote: Exactly what I've been trying to point out. 2 full races and around 41 laps of all the other race starts put together out of nearly half the season isn't enough to decide who is overall the better driver.

It's enough to say who has been the better driver this season up until now though.

I don't get this logic.. it's like saying Foreman was out-performing Ali in the Rumble in the Jungle, or the Hare was out-performing the Tortoise.

It doesn't matter what you do during the race, it's where you finish. Riccardo is finishing better than Verstappen, therefore Riccardo is out-performing Verstappen.

They don't award points for who's faster, or who's qualifying the best. It's based on where you finish.

Thw same could be said about Williams. They do the fastest pit stops, so they're out-performing the rest. They're just unlucky in qualifying, practice, the race, life in general.

bradtheboywonder wrote:I don't get this logic.. it's like saying Foreman was out-performing Ali in the Rumble in the Jungle, or the Hare was out-performing the Tortoise.

It doesn't matter what you do during the race, it's where you finish. Riccardo is finishing better than Verstappen, therefore Riccardo is out-performing Verstappen.

They don't award points for who's faster, or who's qualifying the best. It's based on where you finish.

Thw same could be said about Williams. They do the fastest pit stops, so they're out-performing the rest. They're just unlucky in qualifying, practice, the race, life in general.

But you have to acknowledge that a large part of a drivers success is out of his hands. Therefore it is extremely misleading to make a judgement based on success alone.

Verstappen has been performing better than Ricciardo when both run clean so he is the better performing driver.

Kvyat scored more points than Ricciardo in 2015 but nobody would try and argue Kvyat drove better.

bradtheboywonder wrote:I don't get this logic.. it's like saying Foreman was out-performing Ali in the Rumble in the Jungle, or the Hare was out-performing the Tortoise.

It doesn't matter what you do during the race, it's where you finish. Riccardo is finishing better than Verstappen, therefore Riccardo is out-performing Verstappen.

They don't award points for who's faster, or who's qualifying the best. It's based on where you finish.

Thw same could be said about Williams. They do the fastest pit stops, so they're out-performing the rest. They're just unlucky in qualifying, practice, the race, life in general.

You'd have a point if Max were actually finishing the races. He's not finishing because the car keeps dying on him. As such, "where they finish" has nothing to do with who is performing better.

sandman1347 wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

Rockie wrote:Just to play devils advocate here could it be that Max is running the car in engine modes he's not meant to be doing as he is always being told to go to a particular mode.

As this consecutive failures can't be a coincidence or can it?

Of course it can.

Red Bull actually have a long history of having one unlucky car and another car that is basically bullet-proof. In 2010 Vettel had the unlucky car. 2011-2013 Webber had all the problems. 2015-2016 Daniel had all the bad luck. This year it's Max's turn.

On a side note, it's truly amazing how Daniel has often been fortunate to perform well in races where the top cars have trouble. In 2014, his best races seemed to always coincide with Mercedes having problems and Baku was the ultimate example of that as all 4 top cars had problems along with his teammate!

It's not amazing in the slightest. It's a natural consequence of often being the best of the rest.

bradtheboywonder wrote:I don't get this logic.. it's like saying Foreman was out-performing Ali in the Rumble in the Jungle, or the Hare was out-performing the Tortoise.

It doesn't matter what you do during the race, it's where you finish. Riccardo is finishing better than Verstappen, therefore Riccardo is out-performing Verstappen.

They don't award points for who's faster, or who's qualifying the best. It's based on where you finish.

Thw same could be said about Williams. They do the fastest pit stops, so they're out-performing the rest. They're just unlucky in qualifying, practice, the race, life in general.

I would agree, finishing is all that matters if the cars didn't break down or have massively varying performance levels between teams. Therefore racing is not comparable to those examples as it is man and machine, not just man. So when comparing man and another man, one must consider the machine. The same reason Hamilton isn't thrashing Alonso the last 3-4 years, because we factor in the machine when considering driver performance? Or do you think Hamilton was that much better than Alonso over that period?

rivf1 wrote:

A.J. wrote:

lamo wrote:Ricciardo is in trouble the last few races, all lucky podiums and a very lucky win. He really needs to up his game if he wants to remain a top driver and be in the running for the big seats. Max is starting to dominate him but the luck isn't falling for him, but that's not so important, everybody is seeing what is happening in RBR and who is the better driver at the moment. Its Rosberg - Hamilton 2016 scenario.

At this point last year Rosberg was clearly the better driver

Yeah i am very confused what point he is making in his post, he is saying the inferior driver at RB is winning and than pointed out the inferior driver at Mercedes last season lost out to his team mate.

What is confused about that, did Rosberg have all the engine failures and grid penalties?

What we see with Verstappen and Ricciardo is how unreliable points can be at times, Verstappen is clearly better but getting thrashed on points, a driver sometimes can't control his own destiny.

lamo wrote:

bradtheboywonder wrote:I don't get this logic.. it's like saying Foreman was out-performing Ali in the Rumble in the Jungle, or the Hare was out-performing the Tortoise.

It doesn't matter what you do during the race, it's where you finish. Riccardo is finishing better than Verstappen, therefore Riccardo is out-performing Verstappen.

They don't award points for who's faster, or who's qualifying the best. It's based on where you finish.

Thw same could be said about Williams. They do the fastest pit stops, so they're out-performing the rest. They're just unlucky in qualifying, practice, the race, life in general.

I would agree, finishing is all that matters if the cars didn't break down or have massively varying performance levels between teams. Therefore racing is not comparable to those examples as it is man and machine, not just man. So when comparing man and another man, one must consider the machine. The same reason Hamilton isn't thrashing Alonso the last 3-4 years, because we factor in the machine when considering driver performance? Or do you think Hamilton was that much better than Alonso over that period?

I think this is a "If your Aunty had balls, she'd be your uncle." Argument. I feel Hamilton Alonso argument is different because they're different teams and we know the Honda is a dud. While I agree Max has looked better in stages, I can't say that he's out performing him. We could still attribute it to driving styles.

I think of a driver like Roberto Moreno in Champcar. He got quite a few wins and was a title challenger in 98 (?). He had a conservative style which made him able to stretch out his fuel mileage, which helped him win.
Or Russell Ingall in V8. I believe he won the title without winning any rounds. It was a deliberate strategy because he realised sitting back and taking points was better than being aggressive and pushing for wins. I believe Prost made a career out of it as well.

With these guys, other drivers looked better in stages of the race/season, but I couldn't say anyone out performed them. I am inspired but, I'm going to apply for the top job at Sauber and say in the interview "Yeah I was one of the top guys in all of my classes, but unfortunately I didn't graduate.."

bradtheboywonder wrote:Or Russell Ingall in V8. I believe he won the title without winning any rounds. It was a deliberate strategy because he realised sitting back and taking points was better than being aggressive and pushing for wins. I believe Prost made a career out of it as well.

Yeah he only had the record number of wins til Schumacher came along

mcdo wrote:

bradtheboywonder wrote:Or Russell Ingall in V8. I believe he won the title without winning any rounds. It was a deliberate strategy because he realised sitting back and taking points was better than being aggressive and pushing for wins. I believe Prost made a career out of it as well.

Yeah he only had the record number of wins til Schumacher came along

Prost made a career out of being better than anyone else, until Senna joined his team. He didn't have Senna's outright speed and so he needed to rely on being consistent and playing the long game, but that was the only time. For the rest of his career he was just plain quicker.

Now, I could imagine a title challenge between Max and Dan going that way, but it's much too early to say. Certainly, if they were fighting for the WDC this year you'd have to figure Ricciardo would have a good shot at it despite Verstappen looking the better of the two more often.

Exediron wrote:

mcdo wrote:

bradtheboywonder wrote:Or Russell Ingall in V8. I believe he won the title without winning any rounds. It was a deliberate strategy because he realised sitting back and taking points was better than being aggressive and pushing for wins. I believe Prost made a career out of it as well.

Yeah he only had the record number of wins til Schumacher came along

Prost made a career out of being better than anyone else, until Senna joined his team. He didn't have Senna's outright speed and so he needed to rely on being consistent and playing the long game, but that was the only time. For the rest of his career he was just plain quicker.

Now, I could imagine a title challenge between Max and Dan going that way, but it's much too early to say. Certainly, if they were fighting for the WDC this year you'd have to figure Ricciardo would have a good shot at it despite Verstappen looking the better of the two more often.

And I would completely agree with that

lamo wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:An easy look back the races starting with the Spanish GP last year and outside Monaco where Ricciardo was untouchable, Max has had the edge over Ricciardo. And though I think Verstappen was a bit over the edge in several instances, when he was pulling off some of those moves, he was more often than not comfortably ahead of Ricciardo. Mind you he was thrust into the senior team in a moments notice and into a completely new car and was immediately on pace and won his maiden race in such a scenario.

Hypoerbole?... I don't think so.

Of course it's hyperbole if you think outside Monaco Max has been comfortably ahead since they've been partnered. He was out-qualified over those 17 races last year, finished behind more often, had less podiums and scored less points.

This year Max has looked better though, he's up 5-3(2 really, China shouldn't count) in Qualy and has been ahead and quicker in most races before his troubles hit.

But even this year it's been overblown how badly Dan is doing, they've had two full races where they both finished and in China Max looked considerably quicker in the first half and Dan in the second half and the gap at the flag was 0.9s. In Monaco Dan didn't fudge his pit stop and made the over cut work with some rapid laps and the gap at the flag was 2.9s

1-1 and both close at the flag and that's it as far as facts go, everything else is hypothetical based on a handful of laps each race.

Hang on... with regards to last year. Max was dropped into a car he had never driven in a new team, mid season with no testing. Compared to a settled Ricciardo. That is not really a fair comparison and Max still held his own.

Yes Ricciardo did out qualify Max, but the score went like this....
5-0
5-1
7-1
7-2
9-2
9-4
10-4
10-6
11-6

Ricciardo was 9-2 up and from that point on lost to Max 4-2 over the last 6 races. Max got stronger and stronger after just being dropped into a car mid season. He has continued were he left off in 2016. His race pace was up with Ricciardo from day 1 and improved through the year generally.

I actually don't like Max and a bit of a Ricciardo fan but that is the way it is unfortunately.

Precisely.

Verstappen has been in control of the pace and as a result been on the better strategy which is usually given to the better/faster of the 2 drivers for every team. in 2016 max made a few mistakes that cost him, which while loses him brownie points, in between those mistakes he drove better than Ricciardo. Where they finished come the end of races only shows that one driver made it to the end. It does not say where each driver was relative to his teammate during races. Ricciardo had 3 really impressive races that I recall in 2016 whereas Verstappen enjoyed well more than a handful of them, regardless of him crashing out. At Brazil in particular he was outpacing everyone simply because he was able to figure out a better line and throttle/brake control than anyone else and that made him feel as though he could push just that much more, but once he did he spun and was extremely fortunate he didn't end up in the wall.

Ricciardo is an excellent driver and the ONLY thing I dislike about him in ANY capacity is his habitual over ambitious dive bombs down the inside of drivers which forces them to take evasive action which is what has kept many of those incidents from ending in retirements for both drivers.

When both drivers crossed the line (since Spain) in 2016, this is how it broke down.

Spain – Verstappen crossed the checkered flag some 43+ seconds ahead of Ricciardo in his very first race in the car, having never driven it before that Friday's FP1

Canada – Verstappen finished some 10 seconds ahead… Then Europe Max finished 1 second behind Ricciardo

Europe – Verstappen finished 1.5 seconds behind Ricciardo

Austria – Verstappen finished 25 Seconds ahead of Ricciardo

Silverstone – Verstappen finished 18 Seconds ahead of Ricciardo

Hungary – Ricciardo finished 21 seconds ahead of Verstappen

Germany – Ricciardo finished 6.5 seconds ahead of Verstappen

Belgium – Ricciardo finished 56 seconds ahead of Verstappen

Italy – Ricciardo finished 9 seconds ahead of Verstappen

Singapore – Ricciardo finished 70 seconds ahead of Verstappen

Malaysia – Ricciardo finished 2.5 seconds ahead of Verstappen

Japan – Verstappen finished 27 Seconds ahead of Ricciardo

Mexico – Ricciardo finished .5 seconds ahead of Verstappen

Brazil – Verstappen finished 43 Seconds ahead of Ricciardo

Abu Dhabi – Verstappen finished 3.5 Seconds ahead of Ricciardo


And less we forget that Verstappen made overtakes than anyone which delves further into him having the upper hand between the Red Bull Drivers. The points tally at the end of the year mean little here, especially if you consider Verstappen ran a few races in the Toro Rosso before moving to the senior team.
Overall, I have to give the kid the nod for finishing ahead of the guy the team put all their eggs in the basket for, more often. It's not by an absurd margin, but if you factor in how nothing of the car was built around him and the fact he'd never even sat in it before FP1 in Spain, what he accomplished over the remainder of the season is seriously impressive.

And while Qualifying doesn't mean the world, even that shows that the kid has the upper hand on Ricciardo. If Ricciardo out-qualified Verstappen over the season and Verstappen came out on top when both cars finished, I think that is indicative of which driver was better. Sure he made mistakes when pushing, but he's young and still learning and improving and that should be a brow raising proposition for Ricciardo fans because it wont be long until Verstappen is made the defacto #1 it RBR, unless they ship him off to Ferrari.

So I don't think it's an exaggeration to say the Verstappen had the edge over Ricciardo comfortably outside of Monaco.

Why have you given Baku(Europe) to Max colour wise when the description goes to Dan?.

Dan finished ahead more often. He out qualified him and he scored more points during those 17 races, never mind the first 4 when Max was at STR, you don't have to count that and Dan still heads it.

So yes it's quite clearly an exaggeration to say Max had the edge over Ricciardo comfortably outside of Monaco. He literally had nothing over him.

You can be impressed more with Max for sure, that's your opinion. But he didn't finish ahead more often so can you please stop repeating it.

As impressive as Max was last year he was still capable of a couple of dodgy blunders. I expect he's got them out of his system now