As time goes by, my opinion of Max continues to drift lower. A lot of his misfortunes on the track are of his own making.

I agree with that sentiment, a driver that has collisions can learn to stop having them / take less risk. A slower driver can not become faster.
Whilst I prefer Dan, Max can easily become a better driver by just playing the long game a bit more. Dan's slight speed disadvantage, well there isn't anything he can do about that. Dan is probably the more complete driver at this time, but Max is 19 and has maybe more than 15 years in this sport to go.

I agree with that sentiment, a driver that has collisions can learn to stop having them / take less risk. A slower driver can not become faster.
Whilst I prefer Dan, Max can easily become a better driver by just playing the long game a bit more. Dan's slight speed disadvantage, well there isn't anything he can do about that. Dan is probably the more complete driver at this time, but Max is 19 and has maybe more than 15 years in this sport to go.

That may be so, but, the "slight speed disadvantage" assumes that Dan and Max set their car up the same way.

Given that the RB13 has a power disadvantage to the Merc and Ferrari powered cars it's entirely possible that Dan is setting his car up for a slower ultimate one lap time, but with a higher straight line speed to help overtaking during the race. I.e. Splitting the setup optimisation between the two cars.

During the race they showed highest speeds through the speed trap and I was surprised to see Dan at the top of the list.

I guess for us sitting behind the keyboard it's impossible to know, but it's fun to muse over.

Cheers,
Noel

Driver's go through form patches with qualy pace.

Just because Max has been the better performer on saturdays for half a season doesn't mean it will always be that way.

I said earlier in the season that Verstappen was immature and got ribbed for it, it's nice to see that a few more people are beginning to see this.

Driver's go through form patches with qualy pace.

Just because Max has been the better performer on saturdays for half a season doesn't mean it will always be that way.

I think we saw enough today to say that Dan beat Max. Yes, Max is the better starter at this point - by quite some margin - but since he keeps crashing into people in the early laps

At one point in this race Max was told over the radio why Ricciardo was quicker than him (driver coaching, although I guess it's legal again) so what does that do for the argument that he would have finished ahead if he hadn't tangled with Massa?

I think Max's early retirements are being taken too much as a sign that he'd necessarily have kept that position.

Well, he doesn't "keep crashing into people". Hungary wasn't good but that's basically it. Massa was not his fault at all (see previous reply).

If memory serves that was the last part of the race when Max was on considerably older tyres. Both Max and Dan had alternating parts of the race where they were quicker than the other

Well another argument can be made as well: Riccciardo being almost invariably behind is explained as it being deliberate and that he would come back later in the race because it's the only theory that would fit to counter the idea that Verstappen has been faster this year.

Sorry guys but can anyone who's piling on Verstappen here explain me why he was "over agressive"? Or why the move on Massa was "marginal"? He was fully alongside Massa, he left him enough space on the inside, but Massa just drifted wide and plainly pushed Verstappen out. Nothing Verstappen could do about it.

This past weekend alone I've seen various "lesser gods" do what Massa couldn't. GP3 cars, F2 cars and even Porsche trucks (well, compared to F1 cars ) got side by side through Rettifilo just fine. But when Verstappen goes for the overtak, AND leaves enough space, AND his competitor makes a meal of it and hits him... then it's Verstappen being over agressive?

What nonsense guys.

Well, he doesn't "keep crashing into people". Hungary wasn't good but that's basically it. Massa was not his fault at all (see previous reply).

the two drivers were only on the same compound at the same time for the last 14 laps of the race, and before that Ricciardo was managing his tyres to make his strategy work while Max tried to overtake cars. However, they did each set their fastest lap of the race only a single lap apart, and Ricciardo's was a second faster than Max's. I have little doubt you'd call the race pace in favor of Max if the data was reversed, and indeed I can see very little reason not to.

And your explanation for the second part, where I mention that I think the pattern clearly existed well before this year?

How about the fact that Ricciardo obviously was faster in China at the end? He was faster in the end at Silverstone as well, until Max made his precautionary stop.

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Verstappen drove into Massa's sidepod. That isn't possible if Verstappen is ahead. He went for a gap that didn't exist and paid the price.

Additionally he moved under braking against both Has cars; he had contact with Grosjean (and frankly was lucky to escape without a puncture) and forced Magnussen off the track by swerving into his path under braking.

If Max's car had failed on the 2nd lap then no doubt Monza would have been another race to add to the list where Verstappen has 'dominated' Ricciardo this season.

Look at it again mate. He was fully alongside before turning into T1, and he gave Massa all the space he needed to make the corner. He couldn't just vanish into thin air when Massa came crashing into him.

Having watched the highlights Verstappen has a lot to learn race craft wise. Puncture was entirely his fault, he was lucky not to take damage after chopping Grosjean and his move on Magnussen was just dumb.

If wasn't solely that word, it was also the "keeping" part. I mean, if memory serves this is the second time this year a collision has cost him. I don't feel that is enough to establish a pattern, especially when Austria he couldn't even be held remotely responsible for anything.

And sure he could turn in fine as Massa could make the turn too. It was not like Massa braked too late and couldn't make the corner - he could, but decided to go into Verstappen.

I compare it a bit with Ocon & Perez in Spa: if drivers now have to assume that the others are going to f*ck it up, then you can't properly race or try to overtake anywhere anymore.
I'd add that going over the speed bumps poses a risk as well.

Referring again to Max at that point being on much older tyres.
Also, if Ricciardo was managing his tyres, then what for Max? Ricciardo had to do 55 laps on a set of softs and a set of super softs, Max had to do 52 laps on two sets of super softs.

Remember Max being faster towards the later stages of some races last year as well. Either way, I will maintain last year wasn't the fairest comparison between both since Max had no build-up to the season in that car and had to learn everything on the go.

Well, did he pass in China?

Nobody used "dominate" as far as I know. Still, again Verstappen outperformed Ricciardo comfortably in qualifying and other people stuffed up and ruined it for him.

Yeah I mean it's not like Max has ever driven anyone off the track (and even said he would have done the same to Ric if he wasn't his team mate)!

Ricciardo's overtake on Kimi carried way more risk than any of those

Max having made mistakes doesn't mean he is in the wrong here though.

You missed Spain, where contact with Bottas clearly cost him. I agree that you can't hold him responsible for Austria, but three 50/50 (or more, in the case of Hungary) incidents is still the most of any of the top drivers, by a clear margin. Maybe it's bad luck, but maybe it's also that he goes for moves that are more on the edge than the rest do.

I agree that it's the same, but then I also thought Ocon had to take some of the blame in Spa for not backing out. It was clear that he was driving into a gap Perez meant to close, and it was clear that Massa was closing the door on Max.

If you watch the video of the incident (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KZprYBQI2Y) at the 3-4 second mark, it's obvious Massa is going to run him off track, but Max is still on almost full lock. That's the time to straighten his steering and go over the bumps, and I think he has to accept a share of responsibility for the contact by not doing so. Much like any driver who hits Max after he makes a move under brakes; I think it's unfair defending, but anyone who hits him when he does it also has to take a share of the blame.

I'm not sure I agree with the 'much' - Max's tyres were 8 laps older, and Ricciardo was dramatically quicker from his first lap on the SS set. At that point, I don't think the age made a huge difference, considering that Max did over 20 laps on his first set with heavier fuel.

That's a disappointingly disingenuous answer, considering you know as well as me that you need to be quite a lot faster to pass, especially a driver who defends as aggressively as Max. There've been plenty of times this year when a much faster car can't pass a slower one, including Vettel and Kimi in the very same race.

He was less than a tenth and a half ahead, so I think outperforming him comfortably is a bit much. He did outperform him, admittedly, but if you're going to pick misleading words with me I think you should refrain from it yourself.

I don't know why you keep sticking to the right or wrong thing. It's irrelevant; morally - whatever that means in racing terms - he was obviously in the right. But he should have been able to read that there wasn't going to be space there, and he should never have tried to drive into it. I could tell Massa was going to close the door on him, and I have a hard time believing he couldn't. It doesn't matter if he feels he was wronged or not; he placed the car where there was going to be a collision, and there was.

Max having made mistakes doesn't mean he is in the wrong here though.

I don't think Max thinks he made any mistakes (as you put it) though. It's that usual F1 driver mentality that if I drive someone else off the track I stuck to the letter of the law but if someone does it to me they're a ****** idiot.

... but where exactly did he drive into? He was fully alongside deep into the corner (look at my second screenshot) until Massa just steered into him as if there was no other car. He didn't drive into anything, he went alongside all the way. Which a lot of lesser drivers could manage the entire weekend, so you would reasonably expect an F1 veteran like Massa to do the same.

If a GP3, an F2 driver or a Porsche driver can do the exact same without coming together, it is not a foregone conclusion that there was going to be a collision.

He stopped driving alongside when he decided he wanted to be on the same part of the track Massa was on, at which point they collided.

I wonder whether this was a calculated risk though? Kimi has the experience to be sensible enough not to ruin his own race by making a point to someone who dives up his inside; my guess is that Dan trusted him enough to have faith in that move.

Valterri Bottas wouldn't have that same level of faith in dicing with Kimi

One would have thought that with all his experience Massa would be somewhat sensible. But Max wasn't even the first driver Massa made contact with at that chicane

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Well we might if he doesn't keep blowing up his car and crashing into other drivers, meanwhile dan keeps producing when it matters.

I think we can all safely disagree with the thread title now.

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Definitively, Max is not out-performing Daniel.

For the limited time we can compare them apples to apples (qualifying and racetime up until the moment something messes it up for Verstappen) Max is outperforming Dan.

After those moments in the race, Dan shines but Max doesn't get to prove what he could/would have done.

Fair enough?

Not so sure about those, as you say, "moments in the race". It certainly doesn't explain the driver coaching that Max received mid-race yesterday. Nor Hungary

Max will become a better driver when he learns a little patience and timing.

Max will become a better driver when he learns a little patience and timing. Although at the moment, since he is becoming most impatient with his very own team, it doesn't seem he's going to change in the short term.

yes but u gotta look past it and see his potential. After all, he has plenty of time.