Vettel's penalty - fair?

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Do you think the penalty applied to Vettel was appropriate?

Unfair - too lenient
52
44%
Fair - but lenient
30
25%
Fair - spot on
18
15%
Fair - but harsh
9
8%
Unfair - too harsh
10
8%
 
Total votes: 119

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Black_Flag_11
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Vettel's penalty - fair?

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

As the poll options say, what do you make of Vettel's penalty?

As of the time of starting this thread he has been awarded a 10 second stop go penalty in the race and had 3 penalty points added to his licence. As far as I'm aware there are no plans to penalise him further.

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Black_Flag_11
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Re: Vettel's penalty - fair?

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

I'm going to go fair but lenient, I think too lenient would have been a drive through or a 5-10 second time penalty. A 10 second stop go is the harshest on track penalty short of a disqualification the stewards can give so that combined with the penalty points I think is just about fair. I think that's the minimum the stewards could have done though.

I think a disqualification would have been fair but on the harsh side, and some would fairly argue that the punishment should be on the harsh side. For me a disqualification in this race and then another penalty in the next one would have gone into what I think is too harsh.

I think a spot on penalty would be what happened today combined with something for the next race, something like a 10 place grid drop or even perhaps an exclusion from qualifying (no idea if that's even possible).

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Re: Vettel's penalty - fair?

Post by flyboy10 »

You've asked was the penalty appropriate and I have to say that it wasn't - on the gounds that it was given for the wrong offence. He should have been give the penalty commensurate with overtaking under the safety car. The other thing that he should have got was a reprimand and/or points on his licence for the second collision.

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nixxxon
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Re: Vettel's penalty - fair?

Post by nixxxon »

Considering the Hamilton unnecessary slow down right at the exit of the corner (not an ideal place to do so) I think its more than fair

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Re: Vettel's penalty - fair?

Post by mikeyg123 »

nixxxon wrote:Considering the Hamilton unnecessary slow down right at the exit of the corner (not an ideal place to do so) I think its more than fair
Is that really relevant? Vettel was penalised for dangerous driving... is that mitigated if you feel the victim of your act deserves it?

I don't see how Vettel being annoyed at Hamilton's driving is an excuse.

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nixxxon
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Re: Vettel's penalty - fair?

Post by nixxxon »

mikeyg123 wrote:
nixxxon wrote:Considering the Hamilton unnecessary slow down right at the exit of the corner (not an ideal place to do so) I think its more than fair
Is that really relevant? Vettel was penalised for dangerous driving... is that mitigated if you feel the victim of your act deserves it?

I don't see how Vettel being annoyed at Hamilton's driving is an excuse.
Of course it is relevant... there is a lot of pressure and a lot of effort by those who want to win the championship, vettel is in contention, and being screwed up by such a thing must be extremely annoying.
Not defending vettels action afterwards, I think its wrong, but I understand that some might have some temper tantrum for that.

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Re: Vettel's penalty - fair?

Post by zaar »

mikeyg123 wrote:I don't see how Vettel being annoyed at Hamilton's driving is an excuse.
As annoying it is for me, but I think you have a point there.
Nevertheless I think the penalty was fair but a perhaps a bit lenient. But all the calls to dq him sound a bit too much like "crucify him" to me. Three points seem to be sensible too. I don't know if it would be possible to combine all this with a grid penalty for the next race ...

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Re: Vettel's penalty - fair?

Post by wire2004 »

Soft. Soft penalty.
Vettel should have both been black flagged and a 10 place penalty as well as the 3 licence points added.

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Re: Vettel's penalty - fair?

Post by wire2004 »

nixxxon wrote:Considering the Hamilton unnecessary slow down right at the exit of the corner (not an ideal place to do so) I think its more than fair
The stewaeds have found that Hamilton has been consistent with all 3 restarts and the consistency he had in being the lead car. Vettels driving today was shocking and deserved more than he did.

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Re: Vettel's penalty - fair?

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

Considering what has yielded 3 license penalty points so far, I thought that 6 penalty points would be approriate to Vettel's deeds.

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Re: Vettel's penalty - fair?

Post by wire2004 »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:Considering what has yielded 3 license penalty points so far, I thought that 6 penalty points would be approriate to Vettel's deeds.
Do they really want too do that to one of the poster boys of formula 1.

Vettel only needs 2 more penalty points before he sits a race out. He has to stay clean for Austria and silverstone before 2 points get taken away from him.

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Re: Vettel's penalty - fair?

Post by LBET »

mikeyg123 wrote:
nixxxon wrote:Considering the Hamilton unnecessary slow down right at the exit of the corner (not an ideal place to do so) I think its more than fair
If someone make me mad I can ram them? COOL! I'll take that ethic on the roads with me today!

Is that really relevant? Vettel was penalised for dangerous driving... is that mitigated if you feel the victim of your act deserves it?

I don't see how Vettel being annoyed at Hamilton's driving is an excuse.

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Re: Vettel's penalty - fair?

Post by LBET »

wire2004 wrote:Soft. Soft penalty.
Vettel should have both been black flagged and a 10 place penalty as well as the 3 licence points added.
Too right. Maturity is a bespoke suit you must wear always....always. Vettel has lost face, grace and the respect of many. The penalty should not consider the impact to the show or the standings. A prat is a prat!
Last edited by LBET on Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Paolo_Lasardi
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Re: Vettel's penalty - fair?

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

wire2004 wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:Considering what has yielded 3 license penalty points so far, I thought that 6 penalty points would be approriate to Vettel's deeds.
Do they really want too do that to one of the poster boys of formula 1.

Vettel only needs 2 more penalty points before he sits a race out. He has to stay clean for Austria and silverstone before 2 points get taken away from him.
If that was the consideration, then it is inacceptable IMO and hevily biasing the wdc fight in Vettel's favour at the green table.

3 points are and were given for far lower infringements, so it must be more here, irrespective of golden, poster or whatever boy!

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Re: Vettel's penalty - fair?

Post by wire2004 »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
wire2004 wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:Considering what has yielded 3 license penalty points so far, I thought that 6 penalty points would be approriate to Vettel's deeds.
Do they really want too do that to one of the poster boys of formula 1.

Vettel only needs 2 more penalty points before he sits a race out. He has to stay clean for Austria and silverstone before 2 points get taken away from him.
If that was the consideration, then it is inacceptable IMO and hevily biasing the wdc fight in Vettel's favour at the green table.

3 points are and were given for far lower infringements, so it must be more here, irrespective of golden, poster or whatever boy!

For what its worth. I do agree with you that more points should have been awarded. I dont think you can have more than 3 in any session i believe.
I have seen less given more punishmrnt in the past. Maybe vettel should sit out Austria as a ban.

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Re: Vettel's penalty - fair?

Post by Schumacher forever#1 »

I don't really think too much of it to be honest. Like in football, we have players always pushing one another to grab their attention when that other player does something out of order. In this case, Vettel wanted to get Hamilton's attention and shoved him a bit.

People keep calling it disgusting and dangerous driving, but it really wasn't either of those. A wheel barge that we see all the time in wheel to wheel racing. If that's the case, the whole of F1 is dangerous driving.

10 second stop go penalty would suffice for me, which is a lot of time in F1 terms.
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Re: Vettel's penalty - fair?

Post by Zoue »

I think it was fair. On the one hand, Vettel did a stupid thing, but the more I see the clip the less convinced I am that he actually intended to hit Hamilton. He didn't gain any advantage from it, so the penalty was purely a bad conduct notice, not a racing one, if that makes sense.

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Re: Vettel's penalty - fair?

Post by mcdo »

I'm between "Fair - spot on" and "Fair - but lenient". I've said elsewhere that a 10-sec penalty is harsh these days and seems sufficient for me. But a DSQ wouldn't have surprised me
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Re: Vettel's penalty - fair?

Post by wire2004 »

The vettel booing will return i suspect

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Re: Vettel's penalty - fair?

Post by Clarky »

Vettel hit Hamilton not once but twice.

He behavior was a disgrace and the penalty was not strong enough for me. He has made himself look like a right fool in the public eye.

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Re: Vettel's penalty - fair?

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

Appropriate. It was wheel to wheel and at low speed. Still a dumbass move, but not worthy of a beheading.
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Re: Vettel's penalty - fair?

Post by Remmirath »

I'm going with fair but lenient, but I almost went for unfair because of being too lenient. Getting a penalty at all I think was necessary, but honestly I was expecting a harsher penalty, and I wouldn't have thought anything up to DSQ and suspended race ban was too much. More than that would've been, but even if it was slow speed and all, Vettel clearly turned in on Hamilton deliberately, and that oughtn't to be tolerated at any speed. I don't count Hamilton slowing and Vettel running into the back of his car into this -- it touched the incident off, but although Hamilton probably shouldn't've slowed down so suddenly and Vettel probably should've been paying more attention, I don't see either one as being clearly at fault there.
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Re: Vettel's penalty - fair?

Post by Exediron »

Too lenient; should have been a black flag for dangerous driving.
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Re: Vettel's penalty - fair?

Post by pbchillin »

It was fair, Maldonado did the same thing twice ( vs Hamilton Spa 2011 and vs Perez Monaco 2012) and got a 5 and then 10 place grid penalty for it.

Punishments need to be consistent.

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Re: Vettel's penalty - fair?

Post by wire2004 »

pbchillin wrote:It was fair, Maldonado did the same thing twice ( vs Hamilton Spa 2011 and vs Perez Monaco 2012) and got a 5 and then 10 place grid penalty for it.

Punishments need to be consistent.
Vettel does have previous indiscretions and moments of red mist. (No pun intended) and this is another one of those moments. Thus why he has 9 penalty points on his licence.

This one was clearly the worst ive seen in a while. And goes back to the dangerous driving of maldonado and early grosjean. In which the latter did indeed receive a race ban.

As ive said. Schumacher would of been disqualified in Hungary in 2012 if not for it being 3 laps from the end and indeed took a 20 second penalty i think (he took a time penalty for sure) and a 10 place grid drop for spa.*the race driver steward of the race confirmed on the bbc at the time i remember seeing it

This is the area we wre looking at. So i want consistency. But is it consistent in regards to the Schumacher penalty.
Schumaher crowded barrichello. Into the wall whereas Vettel used his car as a weapon.

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Re: Vettel's penalty - fair?

Post by pbchillin »

wire2004 wrote:
pbchillin wrote:It was fair, Maldonado did the same thing twice ( vs Hamilton Spa 2011 and vs Perez Monaco 2012) and got a 5 and then 10 place grid penalty for it.

Punishments need to be consistent.
Vettel does have previous indiscretions and moments of red mist. (No pun intended) and this is another one of those moments. Thus why he has 9 penalty points on his licence.

This one was clearly the worst ive seen in a while. And goes back to the dangerous driving of maldonado and early grosjean. In which the latter did indeed receive a race ban.

As ive said. Schumacher would of been disqualified in Hungary in 2012 if not for it being 3 laps from the end and indeed took a 20 second penalty i think (he took a time penalty for sure) and a 10 place grid drop for spa.*the race driver steward of the race confirmed on the bbc at the time i remember seeing it

This is the area we wre looking at. So i want consistency. But is it consistent in regards to the Schumacher penalty.
Schumaher crowded barrichello. Into the wall whereas Vettel used his car as a weapon.
The Schumacher/Barrichello incident is different totally. You can't compare low speed bumping with crowding someone to the wall at 150mph+.

I compared to those two Maldonado incidents as they both happened at low speed and not when the race was 'live'. Vettel today was under SC, Maldonado was in Quali and Practice I do believe. Doesn't make what Vettel did was right by any means though or provide justification. Just trying to show why I feel the punishment was fair.

lamo

Re: Vettel's penalty - fair?

Post by lamo »

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:I don't really think too much of it to be honest. Like in football, we have players always pushing one another to grab their attention when that other player does something out of order. In this case, Vettel wanted to get Hamilton's attention and shoved him a bit.

People keep calling it disgusting and dangerous driving, but it really wasn't either of those. A wheel barge that we see all the time in wheel to wheel racing. If that's the case, the whole of F1 is dangerous driving.

10 second stop go penalty would suffice for me, which is a lot of time in F1 terms.
Firstly, football is a contact sport. F1 isn't. So its not comparable.

Secondly, yes occasionally you can and do go wheel to wheel when racing and have contact. Vettel and Hamilton were not racing, it was behind the SC. So that's not comparable.

lamo

Re: Vettel's penalty - fair?

Post by lamo »

Zoue wrote:I think it was fair. On the one hand, Vettel did a stupid thing, but the more I see the clip the less convinced I am that he actually intended to hit Hamilton. He didn't gain any advantage from it, so the penalty was purely a bad conduct notice, not a racing one, if that makes sense.
Schumacher didn't gain any advantage for Jerez 1997, since when are actions judged by the advantage they gained? Grosjean at Spa in 2012 is the last race ban, no advantage gained, in fact he DNF'd himself too.

If you pull alongside another car and steer towards it, what are you intending to do?

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Re: Vettel's penalty - fair?

Post by flyboy10 »

lamo wrote:
Zoue wrote:I think it was fair. On the one hand, Vettel did a stupid thing, but the more I see the clip the less convinced I am that he actually intended to hit Hamilton. He didn't gain any advantage from it, so the penalty was purely a bad conduct notice, not a racing one, if that makes sense.
Schumacher didn't gain any advantage for Jerez 1997, since when are actions judged by the advantage they gained? Grosjean at Spa in 2012 is the last race ban, no advantage gained, in fact he DNF'd himself too.

If you pull alongside another car and steer towards it, what are you intending to do?
I think Vettel or one of his supporters actually tried to say that he was trying to attract Hamilton's attention and just raising his hand wasn't going to do it on its own.

lamo

Re: Vettel's penalty - fair?

Post by lamo »

pbchillin wrote:
wire2004 wrote:
pbchillin wrote:It was fair, Maldonado did the same thing twice ( vs Hamilton Spa 2011 and vs Perez Monaco 2012) and got a 5 and then 10 place grid penalty for it.

Punishments need to be consistent.
Vettel does have previous indiscretions and moments of red mist. (No pun intended) and this is another one of those moments. Thus why he has 9 penalty points on his licence.

This one was clearly the worst ive seen in a while. And goes back to the dangerous driving of maldonado and early grosjean. In which the latter did indeed receive a race ban.

As ive said. Schumacher would of been disqualified in Hungary in 2012 if not for it being 3 laps from the end and indeed took a 20 second penalty i think (he took a time penalty for sure) and a 10 place grid drop for spa.*the race driver steward of the race confirmed on the bbc at the time i remember seeing it


This is the area we wre looking at. So i want consistency. But is it consistent in regards to the Schumacher penalty.
Schumaher crowded barrichello. Into the wall whereas Vettel used his car as a weapon.
The Schumacher/Barrichello incident is different totally. You can't compare low speed bumping with crowding someone to the wall at 150mph+.

I compared to those two Maldonado incidents as they both happened at low speed and not when the race was 'live'. Vettel today was under SC, Maldonado was in Quali and Practice I do believe. Doesn't make what Vettel did was right by any means though or provide justification. Just trying to show why I feel the punishment was fair.
Maldonado on Hamilton in Spa was on a slow down lap returning to the pits I believe. The only driver I have seen do this move before is Maldonado and Johnny Cecotto Jnr in GP2 (he is an complete idiot). Vettel is in bad company in that respect, I am very surprised he did that. It seems out of character and he has tarnished himself a bit today with that. As a Hamilton fan its a bit of a relief he did it as he would have won the race otherwise once Hamiltons head rest didn't go back in properly.

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Re: Vettel's penalty - fair?

Post by Migen »

The stewards always seem to taken into account what the "offender" actually gained or lost due to his fault play, or the damage it caused to the "innocent" party.

We`ve seen quite a few times drivers escape without a penalty at all (or givent very lenient punishments), just because the offender came out far worst from the accident/incident, whilst when the opposite happens, the punishment has been harsher.

Basically, had Vettel caused severe damage to Hamilton`s car (possibly leading to a DNF), quite sure the penalty would had been more severe too... as it stands, the punishment he received was probably fair.

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Re: Vettel's penalty - fair?

Post by Colesy917 »

Too lenient for me, intent/action should be penalised rather than the outcome as others have said.
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Re: Vettel's penalty - fair?

Post by lamo »

Migen wrote:The stewards always seem to taken into account what the "offender" actually gained or lost due to his fault play, or the damage it caused to the "innocent" party.

We`ve seen quite a few times drivers escape without a penalty at all (or givent very lenient punishments), just because the offender came out far worst from the accident/incident, whilst when the opposite happens, the punishment has been harsher.

Basically, had Vettel caused severe damage to Hamilton`s car (possibly leading to a DNF), quite sure the penalty would had been more severe too... as it stands, the punishment he received was probably fair.
In some instances yes and some no. If you reverse 1 metre in the pits you get a DSQ. You don't gain anything, nobody else loses. But its a safety rule. The same as not deliberately causing a collision is a safety rule.

I too feel it was a fair penalty, 10 second stop and go (did anybody else notice he stood for about 13 seconds??) is one down from disqualification. Its just unfortunate Hamiltons race was ruined elsewhere otherwise it would have been 1st and 5th. I also agree, if Hamiltons car was damaged so he DNF, he 100% would have been DSQ.

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Re: Vettel's penalty - fair?

Post by Zoue »

lamo wrote:
Zoue wrote:I think it was fair. On the one hand, Vettel did a stupid thing, but the more I see the clip the less convinced I am that he actually intended to hit Hamilton. He didn't gain any advantage from it, so the penalty was purely a bad conduct notice, not a racing one, if that makes sense.
Schumacher didn't gain any advantage for Jerez 1997, since when are actions judged by the advantage they gained? Grosjean at Spa in 2012 is the last race ban, no advantage gained, in fact he DNF'd himself too.

If you pull alongside another car and steer towards it, what are you intending to do?
What a strange question. Gaining an advantage is often a factor taken into consideration when determining whether to issue a penalty.

None of what you have written here actually contradicts what I said, or is even relevant, so unclear what you are trying to say

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Re: Vettel's penalty - fair?

Post by Zoue »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:Appropriate. It was wheel to wheel and at low speed. Still a dumbass move, but not worthy of a beheading.
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Re: Vettel's penalty - fair?

Post by Armchair Expert »

Too lenient. Should've been black flag + one race ban + probation for 12 months.

The same penalty that Maldonado should receive (twice, with second one much, much harsher), but we all know that stewards have no integrity and money rules the world.
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Re: Vettel's penalty - fair?

Post by DirtyMike »

I'd say appropriate, losing 30seconds overall in the race is a pretty significant penalty. A love tap under SC conditions at slow speeds shouldn't be considered extremely dangerous. Punishment enough will be his loss of respect and tarnished rep!
If they wanted to hand out more i could justify a 5 place grid drop for Austria...

It's amazing the change in Vettel's personality when there is a title on the line compared to the last couple of years when he was absolutely no chance. Poking fun at the Mercedes boys for being so uptight etc. etc. he was great!
I was just starting to come around to him. I'm actually not that fussed about the on track touch, but just flat out denying he ran into Hamilton is really childish. Instantly reminds me of my perception of him during the dark Vettel vs Webber days. Especially Malaysia when he acted very similarly, playing dumb after passing Webber under what we assume were team orders to hold position.

SO, true colours come to the fore under pressure... I don't think anyone will ever be able to 'out-douche' Hamilton, but this year is going to be SO FUN TO WATCH . Popcorn ready.
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Re: Vettel's penalty - fair?

Post by Clarky »

Imo if "ANY" driver did what Vettel did to then they should be instantly black flagged.

Vettel is stupid and extremely lucky.

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Re: Vettel's penalty - fair?

Post by Exediron »

Clarky wrote:Imo if "ANY" driver did what Vettel did to then they should be instantly black flagged.
'Should' isn't what the thread is about; it's quite explicitly about what we think would actually have happened. I absolutely agree with you that he should have got black flagged, but do you actually think any other driver would have been? That's the question.
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Re: Vettel's penalty - fair?

Post by guardiangr »

Fair enough considering Hamilton's slowdown as well.

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