Forum opinion on Vettel/Hamilton incident

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Who was at fault?

First contact Vettel's fault / Second contact deliberate by Vettel
64
41%
First contact Vettel's fault / Second contact accidental by Vettel
6
4%
First contact Hamilton's fault / Second contact deliberate by Vettel
29
18%
First contact Hamilton's fault / Second contact accidental by Vettel
21
13%
First contact racing incident / Second contact deliberate by Vettel
30
19%
First contact racing incident / Second contact accidental by Vettel
7
4%
 
Total votes: 157

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Alienturnedhuman
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Forum opinion on Vettel/Hamilton incident

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

A quick poll on the main incident in today's race, involving Vettel and Hamilton.

I will not offer any opinion in this opening post, in order not to influence the vote, however the steward's verdict is to penalise Vettel in the race with a 10 second stop/go penalty and to give him 3 points on his super license (25% of the number needed for a race ban).

The stewards also investigated Hamilton and their conclusion is that Hamilton did not brake test Vettel or lift off unexpectedly, and they he drove exactly the same as he did on the previous restart:

Source here: https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-h ... ng-923425/

So that leaves three possible options for the first collision: Vettel at fault, Hamilton at fault / racing incident.

And two possible options for the second collision: Vettel hit Hamilton deliberately / Vettel hit Hamilton accidentally.

What is your opinion?


edited typo on penalty time
Last edited by Alienturnedhuman on Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Pullrod
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Re: Forum opinion on Vettel/Hamilton incident

Post by Pullrod »

Vettel was not paying attention and was too close to Hamilton(hence the first contact)
The second contact is something unacceptable and he shoud have been disqualified from the race.

Look at the second contact from a different angle.
https://video.twimg.com/tweet_video/DDLAwv4XgAAOQ4d.mp4

Very very bad temper from Vettel.

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MistaVega23
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Re: Forum opinion on Vettel/Hamilton incident

Post by MistaVega23 »

The stewards have Vettel a 30 second penalty?
#KeepFightingMichael

flyboy10
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Re: Forum opinion on Vettel/Hamilton incident

Post by flyboy10 »

I don't want to be drawn on the limited number of options you've included as they are all about the "contact" and not about the "action". Nobody, not even a steward, has as much as mentioned the deliberate (or otherwise) act of Vettel pulling out from behind and going side by side with Hamilton (before or ignoring the contact).

Under the SC rules, Vettel should not have made the move that he did which ended with him overtaking, and colliding with, Hamilton.

There should have been an immediate penalty for this action which was clearly proven by video replay and which didn't need to judge intent in order to be imposed.

Then they could have got on to the matter of the collisions.

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Re: Forum opinion on Vettel/Hamilton incident

Post by Flash2k11 »

Im mega interested to see what reaction Jean Todt has to all this. Vettel came pretty close to being hauled up in front of the big beak at Mexico last year before his hasty apology, and Todt has been relentless with his FIA Road Safety campaigns, so to see one of the FIA's showcase sports' best drivers intentionally collide with another driver must surely throw up a red flag with him. Pretty sure he is now the only one that can take the matter further too.
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mikeyg123
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Re: Forum opinion on Vettel/Hamilton incident

Post by mikeyg123 »

Deliberately crashing into another driver aside I think Vettel really needs to address his temper.

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Re: Forum opinion on Vettel/Hamilton incident

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

Difficult one. I haven't yet voted. It did look a bit like Vettel was waving his fists at Hamilton and not really concentrating on his driving which resulted in the clash so I think the 2nd incident may have actually have been accidental. But I'm not sure. However, the first one I really do think Hamilton is partly to blame. Vettel could have been driving to the right or left of him but he chose to follow which I think is perfectly reasonable. Hamilton down FAR more than he needed too just before the bend. This resulted in the whole pack being incredibly close together and it could have resulted in contact further back if Hamilton had been any slower. There really should be a limit to how slow you can go. It was really, really slow. Just after he'd been moaning about how slow the safety car was and how it was affected his tyres, he chooses to go much slower. I think that is a bit unreasonable of him. So the first incident, I'd probably blame Hamilton just as much, maybe a bit more as if he didn't go so slow, nothing will have happened. The 2nd one maybe wasn't decelerate but was clearly his fault. I'd say it was more a clumsy loss of control with frustration rather than a deliberate lunge.

I think a 30 second Penalty is far too harsh on Vettel though. I think just his penalty points and 10 second penalty would have been enough. There have been so many accidents in F1 that have been way worse than this that got less of a penalty. Such as Sainz's crash last weekend. Where he took out himself and Massa as well as damaging Grosjean. Raikonnen also got a 30 second penalty and 2 penalty points I think for Russia 2015 for walloping Bottas out the race. Was Vettel nudging Hamilton as crawling pace worse than this even if it was on purpose? I don't think so at all! This penalty on vettel has gone to far even if his reactions were over the top.

This is my opinion. I guess many will disagree probably :D
Last edited by TheGiantHogweed on Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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nixxxon
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Re: Forum opinion on Vettel/Hamilton incident

Post by nixxxon »

I can understand why Vettel hit the back of Hamilton as Hamilton did unnecessarly slow down a bit too much in a very inadequate place which is right at the exit of that 90 degree corner

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tootsie323
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Re: Forum opinion on Vettel/Hamilton incident

Post by tootsie323 »

^ I will, in terms of context. The other collisions you reference were results of one driver trying to pass another. Today's was solely about a driver expressing his frustration.
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Re: Forum opinion on Vettel/Hamilton incident

Post by Pullrod »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:Difficult one. I haven't yet voted. It did look a bit like Vettel was waving his fists at Hamilton and not really concentrating on his driving which resulted in the clash so I think the 2nd incident may have actually have been accidental. But I'm not sure. However, the first one I really do think Hamilton is partly to blame. Vettel could have been driving to the right or left of him but he chose to follow which I think is perfectly reasonable. Hamilton down FAR more than he needed too just before the bend. This resulted in the whole pack being incredibly close together and it could have resulted in contact further back if Hamilton had been any slower. There really should be a limit to how slow you can go. It was really, really slow. Just after he'd been moaning about how slow the safety car was and how it was affected his tyres, he chooses to go much slower. I think that is a bit unreasonable of him. So the first incident, I'd probably blame Hamilton just as much, maybe a bit more as if he didn't go so slow, nothing will have happened. The 2nd one maybe wasn't decelerate but was clearly his fault. I'd say it was more a clumsy loss of control with frustration rather than a deliberate lunge.

I think a 30 second Penalty is far too harsh on Vettel though. I think just his penalty points and 10 second penalty would have been enough. There have been so many accidents in F1 that have been way worse than this that got less of a penalty. Such as Sainz's crash last weekend. Where he took out himself and Massa as well as damaging Grosjean. Raikonnen also got a 30 second penalty and 2 penalty points I think for Russia 2015 for walloping Bottas out the race. Was Vettel nudging Hamilton as crawling pace worse than this even if it was on purpose? I don't think so at all! This penalty on vettel ahs gone to far even if his reactions were over the top.

This is my opinion. I guess many will disagree probably :D
Not a chance..
watch this video https://video.twimg.com/tweet_video/DDLAwv4XgAAOQ4d.mp4

And Vettel was the only one too close to the guy ahead.

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Re: Forum opinion on Vettel/Hamilton incident

Post by j man »

First contact was a racing incident in my view. In the footage I saw Hamilton didn't slow abruptly or do anything erratic, he just didn't accelerate out of the corner in order to create space to the Safety Car, as the leader is supposed to at that point. Vettel didn't anticipate this, and was perhaps trying to drive as closely to Hamilton as possible with the view of jumping him at the restart, and ran into the back of him. Minor misjudgement on Vettel's part in my opinion but nothing worthy of any punishment.

The second incident was disgraceful though and has no place on a race track. Hard to say what a suitable punishment is when there isn't really any precedent, although an equivalent action in any other sport would result in being ejected from the field of play immediately and being suspended for multiple games.

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Re: Forum opinion on Vettel/Hamilton incident

Post by flyboy10 »

Maybe there needs to be a rule about contact under yellow flags and SC situations. There's absolutely no reason why any car should make contact with another while the race is in a neutralised state under SC, VSC, waved double yellows or in any yellow flagged zone of the circuit.

It's a bit like the argument for the "accidental hand ball" ('ball to hand') rule to be scrapped from football. If you have a rule that says "This must not happen under any circumstance, deliberate or otherwise", the onus is on the drivers to avoid it at all costs. If such a rule had already been in place before today, Vettel would have been penalised without blame or judgement other than he had allowed contact by his action of overtaking under the SC.

Similarly, rear-ending another car could be always seen to be the responsibility of the car behind - as in most road traffic accident insurance claims (until recent cases of scamming).

Maybe nobody should be allowed to be anywhere other than completely behind the car in front (as opposed to being allowed to come alongside).

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Re: Forum opinion on Vettel/Hamilton incident

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

Pullrod wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:Difficult one. I haven't yet voted. It did look a bit like Vettel was waving his fists at Hamilton and not really concentrating on his driving which resulted in the clash so I think the 2nd incident may have actually have been accidental. But I'm not sure. However, the first one I really do think Hamilton is partly to blame. Vettel could have been driving to the right or left of him but he chose to follow which I think is perfectly reasonable. Hamilton down FAR more than he needed too just before the bend. This resulted in the whole pack being incredibly close together and it could have resulted in contact further back if Hamilton had been any slower. There really should be a limit to how slow you can go. It was really, really slow. Just after he'd been moaning about how slow the safety car was and how it was affected his tyres, he chooses to go much slower. I think that is a bit unreasonable of him. So the first incident, I'd probably blame Hamilton just as much, maybe a bit more as if he didn't go so slow, nothing will have happened. The 2nd one maybe wasn't decelerate but was clearly his fault. I'd say it was more a clumsy loss of control with frustration rather than a deliberate lunge.

I think a 30 second Penalty is far too harsh on Vettel though. I think just his penalty points and 10 second penalty would have been enough. There have been so many accidents in F1 that have been way worse than this that got less of a penalty. Such as Sainz's crash last weekend. Where he took out himself and Massa as well as damaging Grosjean. Raikonnen also got a 30 second penalty and 2 penalty points I think for Russia 2015 for walloping Bottas out the race. Was Vettel nudging Hamilton as crawling pace worse than this even if it was on purpose? I don't think so at all! This penalty on vettel ahs gone to far even if his reactions were over the top.

This is my opinion. I guess many will disagree probably :D
Not a chance..
watch this video https://video.twimg.com/tweet_video/DDLAwv4XgAAOQ4d.mp4

And Vettel was the only one too close to the guy ahead.
I think you may have to watch this video when you say "Not a chance..." I've seen others say the same as me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOI2It_ ... r_embedded

Watch at 0:14 onwards. As soon as he starts to turn into Hamilton he looks like he is not fucussing on what he is doing as he is waving his hand and facing Hamilton's car. I think he was so frustrated at the time that he wasn't even aware he did this when he got told he did dangerous driving later on. I think he will have been aware that if he did it on purpose. It certainly was idiotic, but there certainly isn't no chance at all that he didn't intend to do this.

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nixxxon
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Re: Forum opinion on Vettel/Hamilton incident

Post by nixxxon »

I'd say that Hamilton has at least part of the fault in the first contact. Just because "the leader dictates the pace" doesnt mean Hamilton has the right to unnecessarily slow down in any situation, and he slowed down in a wrong place, which is right at the exit of a 90 degree corner

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Re: Forum opinion on Vettel/Hamilton incident

Post by Zoue »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:Difficult one. I haven't yet voted. It did look a bit like Vettel was waving his fists at Hamilton and not really concentrating on his driving which resulted in the clash so I think the 2nd incident may have actually have been accidental. But I'm not sure. However, the first one I really do think Hamilton is partly to blame. Vettel could have been driving to the right or left of him but he chose to follow which I think is perfectly reasonable. Hamilton down FAR more than he needed too just before the bend. This resulted in the whole pack being incredibly close together and it could have resulted in contact further back if Hamilton had been any slower. There really should be a limit to how slow you can go. It was really, really slow. Just after he'd been moaning about how slow the safety car was and how it was affected his tyres, he chooses to go much slower. I think that is a bit unreasonable of him. So the first incident, I'd probably blame Hamilton just as much, maybe a bit more as if he didn't go so slow, nothing will have happened. The 2nd one maybe wasn't decelerate but was clearly his fault. I'd say it was more a clumsy loss of control with frustration rather than a deliberate lunge.

I think a 30 second Penalty is far too harsh on Vettel though. I think just his penalty points and 10 second penalty would have been enough. There have been so many accidents in F1 that have been way worse than this that got less of a penalty. Such as Sainz's crash last weekend. Where he took out himself and Massa as well as damaging Grosjean. Raikonnen also got a 30 second penalty and 2 penalty points I think for Russia 2015 for walloping Bottas out the race. Was Vettel nudging Hamilton as crawling pace worse than this even if it was on purpose? I don't think so at all! This penalty on vettel ahs gone to far even if his reactions were over the top.

This is my opinion. I guess many will disagree probably :D
:thumbup:

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Re: Forum opinion on Vettel/Hamilton incident

Post by Zoue »

mikeyg123 wrote:Deliberately crashing into another driver aside I think Vettel really needs to address his temper.
Yes, I'd agree. It was a dumb move on his part and he does appear to lose his cool a little too easily

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Re: Forum opinion on Vettel/Hamilton incident

Post by mikeyg123 »

If Vettel s actions were not on purpose why is he refusing to even address it? Pretending the penalty was for running into the back of Hamilton etc. He's not talking like an innocent man. His actions have been weird throughout tbh.
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slide
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Re: Forum opinion on Vettel/Hamilton incident

Post by slide »

fia saying Hamilton did not touch the brakes , it is vettel's fault

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tootsie323
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Re: Forum opinion on Vettel/Hamilton incident

Post by tootsie323 »

Having not seen post-race interviews and the like, all I have is the FIA investigation (from the link provided by the OP) implying that Hamilton was not at fault for the initial contact. I've yet to see any evidence that Vettel swerved into Hamilton deliberately when expressing his frustration.
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Re: Forum opinion on Vettel/Hamilton incident

Post by mikeyg123 »

Stewards declaring they found nothing unusual in Hamilton's actions won't matter to some I fear....

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Re: Forum opinion on Vettel/Hamilton incident

Post by Colinjb »

Deeply disappointed in Vettel. To react like that is a disgrace.

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Re: Forum opinion on Vettel/Hamilton incident

Post by Zoue »

I think TheGiantHogweed has said more or less what I think, too.

I do think Hamilton went too slow after exiting the corner and I think that was potentially quite dangerous. I'm also sure he didn't expect he was going to get hit, but I still think it was a dangerous thing to do. I'm struggling a bit with the concept of whose fault it was, though. I think on balance Hamilton's for a risky move but that doesn't mean I think there was necessarily malice behind it.

Vettel's move was clearly his fault, but again I'm not convinced he intended to actually hit Hamilton. I think by gesticulating wildly while holding the steering with one hand he caught himself out. Still a stupid thing to do and the red mist cost him a near certain win. If he didn't do it deliberately, then I think the punishment was appropriate

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Re: Forum opinion on Vettel/Hamilton incident

Post by TypingChicane »

I voted Hamilton's fault on the first + Vettel deliberate contact on the second contact.

To clarify the first: I don' t think Hamilton was at fault for braking or lifting after the corner. It was his position to warm his tyres and brakes as he saw fit. The fault was that he was driving way too far behind the safety car.

The second contact seemed very clear to me: Vettel not controlling his temper. He really should come out and apologize for that. It's like he completely forgot that it actually happened.
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tootsie323
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Re: Forum opinion on Vettel/Hamilton incident

Post by tootsie323 »

tootsie323 wrote:Having not seen post-race interviews and the like, all I have is the FIA investigation (from the link provided by the OP) implying that Hamilton was not at fault for the initial contact. I've yet to see any evidence that Vettel swerved into Hamilton deliberately when expressing his frustration.
Should have added that I argue Vettel at fault for first contact, accidental second contact.
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Re: Forum opinion on Vettel/Hamilton incident

Post by Clarky »

nixxxon wrote:I'd say that Hamilton has at least part of the fault in the first contact. Just because "the leader dictates the pace" doesnt mean Hamilton has the right to unnecessarily slow down in any situation, and he slowed down in a wrong place, which is right at the exit of a 90 degree corner
No no no

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Clarky
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Re: Forum opinion on Vettel/Hamilton incident

Post by Clarky »

TypingChicane wrote:I voted Hamilton's fault on the first + Vettel deliberate contact on the second contact.

To clarify the first: I don' t think Hamilton was at fault for braking or lifting after the corner. It was his position to warm his tyres and brakes as he saw fit. The fault was that he was driving way too far behind the safety car.

The second contact seemed very clear to me: Vettel not controlling his temper. He really should come out and apologize for that. It's like he completely forgot that it actually happened.
He is now the lead car and has to let the safety car get away.

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Re: Forum opinion on Vettel/Hamilton incident

Post by Blake »

Clarky wrote:
TypingChicane wrote:I voted Hamilton's fault on the first + Vettel deliberate contact on the second contact.

To clarify the first: I don' t think Hamilton was at fault for braking or lifting after the corner. It was his position to warm his tyres and brakes as he saw fit. The fault was that he was driving way too far behind the safety car.

The second contact seemed very clear to me: Vettel not controlling his temper. He really should come out and apologize for that. It's like he completely forgot that it actually happened.
He is now the lead car and has to let the safety car get away.
The safety car was away, well away.
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Re: Forum opinion on Vettel/Hamilton incident

Post by TypingChicane »

Blake wrote:
Clarky wrote:
TypingChicane wrote:I voted Hamilton's fault on the first + Vettel deliberate contact on the second contact.

To clarify the first: I don' t think Hamilton was at fault for braking or lifting after the corner. It was his position to warm his tyres and brakes as he saw fit. The fault was that he was driving way too far behind the safety car.

The second contact seemed very clear to me: Vettel not controlling his temper. He really should come out and apologize for that. It's like he completely forgot that it actually happened.
He is now the lead car and has to let the safety car get away.
The safety car was away, well away.
Okay, then I have to change my vote to racing incident for the first contact.
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Re: Forum opinion on Vettel/Hamilton incident

Post by AravJ »

Racing incident on the first but acidental on vetels hitting lewis
His one hand was definately off the steering which on its own dangerous driving and deserves the penalty.
I cant see it as deliberate as he would risk his own race on top of that definately be penalised.
If you ever tried talking to a driver along side you with one hand on the steering not looking foward you would automatically veer into them.
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Re: Forum opinion on Vettel/Hamilton incident

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

It is reasonable to expect a driver to accelerate coming out of such a tight corner. Hamilton's actions left a sour taste in my mouth.

Vettel's response was unacceptable, he deserved the penalty. His response to the penalty smacks of poor theater, no one was fooled. Just like Hamilton, he is an exceptionally talented driver who occasionally acts like a jerk.

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The rules need to be changed, all cars (including the car behind the safety car) must maintain a specific distance and brake checking heavily penalized. We must remove this entitlement of belief that the leader can back up the field, let them race the instant the safety car pulls off the track.
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Re: Forum opinion on Vettel/Hamilton incident

Post by Clarky »

Blake wrote:
Clarky wrote:
TypingChicane wrote:I voted Hamilton's fault on the first + Vettel deliberate contact on the second contact.

To clarify the first: I don' t think Hamilton was at fault for braking or lifting after the corner. It was his position to warm his tyres and brakes as he saw fit. The fault was that he was driving way too far behind the safety car.

The second contact seemed very clear to me: Vettel not controlling his temper. He really should come out and apologize for that. It's like he completely forgot that it actually happened.
He is now the lead car and has to let the safety car get away.
The safety car was away, well away.
He did the same thing 3 times in the same race.

Plus he would have easily caught the safety car. He nearly got caught out the first time as we heard on the team radio.

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Re: Forum opinion on Vettel/Hamilton incident

Post by j man »

Blake wrote:
Clarky wrote:
TypingChicane wrote:I voted Hamilton's fault on the first + Vettel deliberate contact on the second contact.

To clarify the first: I don' t think Hamilton was at fault for braking or lifting after the corner. It was his position to warm his tyres and brakes as he saw fit. The fault was that he was driving way too far behind the safety car.

The second contact seemed very clear to me: Vettel not controlling his temper. He really should come out and apologize for that. It's like he completely forgot that it actually happened.
He is now the lead car and has to let the safety car get away.
The safety car was away, well away.
But he needed to let the Safety Car get well, well away. That start/finish straight is colossal.

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Re: Forum opinion on Vettel/Hamilton incident

Post by mikeyg123 »

To those who think Vettel hit Hamilton by accident... If that's the case then why was he saw got with the media about it post race? Why not just say he hit Hamilton by accident if that's is what happened? I Could have believed it was accidental but the way Vettel has handled it absolutely stinks.

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Re: Forum opinion on Vettel/Hamilton incident

Post by LBET »

The poll results have redeemed my faith in the judgment of F1 fans that frequent this board.

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Re: Forum opinion on Vettel/Hamilton incident

Post by LBET »

mikeyg123 wrote:To those who think Vettel hit Hamilton by accident... If that's the case then why was he saw got with the media about it post race? Why not just say he hit Hamilton by accident if that's is what happened? I Could have believed it was accidental but the way Vettel has handled it absolutely stinks.
Yup.

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Re: Forum opinion on Vettel/Hamilton incident

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

mikeyg123 wrote:To those who think Vettel hit Hamilton by accident... If that's the case then why was he saw got with the media about it post race? Why not just say he hit Hamilton by accident if that's is what happened? I Could have believed it was accidental but the way Vettel has handled it absolutely stinks.
Vettel won the "Jerk of the Day" award.
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Re: Forum opinion on Vettel/Hamilton incident

Post by LBET »

Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Deliberately crashing into another driver aside I think Vettel really needs to address his temper.
Yes, I'd agree. It was a dumb move on his part and he does appear to lose his cool a little too easily
Not what you want for an F1 Pilot. These guys are supposed to be the next best thing to fighter pilots. If you do that stuff in a dogfight you are done. You will over shoot. I will go full flaps and you will be in the kill zone. Momentum management is the name of the game.

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Re: Forum opinion on Vettel/Hamilton incident

Post by mikeyg123 »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:To those who think Vettel hit Hamilton by accident... If that's the case then why was he saw got with the media about it post race? Why not just say he hit Hamilton by accident if that's is what happened? I Could have believed it was accidental but the way Vettel has handled it absolutely stinks.
Vettel won the "Jerk of the Day" award.
His behaviour was so strange. I understand doing things in frustration in the moment but Vettel seems to have stuck to claiming he did nothing wrong.

Basically saying incident? What incident?

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Re: Forum opinion on Vettel/Hamilton incident

Post by mkone »

MistaVega23 wrote:The stewards have Vettel a 30 second penalty?
When did this happen? I can't find any mention / confirmation of it anywhere.

TheGiantHogweed
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Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:15 am

Re: Forum opinion on Vettel/Hamilton incident

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

mkone wrote:
MistaVega23 wrote:The stewards have Vettel a 30 second penalty?
When did this happen? I can't find any mention / confirmation of it anywhere.
I doubt it is true. If that had been confirmed, then all the f1 sites will have updated and Vettel wouldn't have closed the gap in the championship points.

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