planetf1.com

pokerman wrote:

Covalent wrote:

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

Covalent wrote:I have poor memory so I had to read backwards quite a bit to connect the dots what exactly the "Kimi's racing only for money" propaganda has to do with Hamilton, but apparently it's being used to prove Lewis is being singled out regarding possible retirement

Massively off topic but can anyone think of another driver who turned down a WDC contending car because they didn't offer him enough money?

You could argue perhaps Hill in 98 but he insists he didn't turn Mclaren down because of the money but because they never really wanted him. Can't think of many others off hand. Let alone when the driver in question actually decided to sit out the season rather than compete for championship.

Indeed I thought about mentioning that as well in questioning Kimi's motivation although it's been said on here that perhaps he just had enough of F1 because of his experience with Ferrari, but still surely a driver's ultimate motivation should be to win races and titles after all the McLaren was looking a better car than the Ferrari at the time as well.

McLaren finished 1p ahead of Ferrari in the WCC, and you have to remember Massa was injured and replaced by hopeless after hopeless drivers.

Hamilton scored more points than any other driver in the second half of the season, Hamilton's teammate wasn't exactly that brilliant either hence the need for another driver.

Also who approached who first, I wouldn't be too surprised if it wasn't Kimi's own management team that approached McLaren after all that's what they are paid to do in weighing up Kimi's best options.

In 2009 there was nothing to suggest that the McLaren of next year was going to be better than the Ferrari, and with the gift of foresight even you'd see that Alonso ran Vettel closest in the WDC battle, not Hamilton or Button.

Really the lengths you are dragging this, that Hamilton retirement comment really struck a nerve didn't it.

pokerman wrote:

Covalent wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Covalent wrote:

pokerman wrote: Is that not how most things go as we start to make comparisons, also what has the thread topic got to do with the possible retirement of Hamilton in the first place, only Hamilton can be put under the microscope perhaps?

Maybe you should ask yourself, aren't you the one who turned the thread into a Hamilton retirement argument?

You mean in response to Hamilton may soon retire, this being put forward with little evidence to back it up?

It's a non-disputable fact that it's a possibility, regardless of if you like it or not.

But nevertheless it's still not a fact, I guess you have not read all the posts in this thread which includes Hamilton's own most recent take on his possible F1 future which didn't include retirement.

But nevertheless it is still a non-disputable fact.

We're almost to the Spa weekend & no news regarding any confirmed seats or moves. I'm still hoping on Thursday or Friday atleast some seat is confirmed or there's some shuffle.

Ferrari may make some announcement during the start of the Monza weekend. But keeping them aside, no news from any other team really is an anti-climax to the end of the summer break.

UnlikeUday wrote:We're almost to the Spa weekend & no news regarding any confirmed seats or moves. I'm still hoping on Thursday or Friday atleast some seat is confirmed or there's some shuffle.

Ferrari may make some announcement during the start of the Monza weekend. But keeping them aside, no news from any other team really is an anti-climax to the end of the summer break.

It shouldn't come as a surprise because neither Mercedes nor Ferrari have confirmed their line-ups yet. While there are still seats potentially available at both teams, the likes of Alonso, Perez and Sainz (if he actually has any control over his immediate future) are all going to refrain from committing anywhere, at least not until they've either public (or private) confirmation that there isn't a better seat available.

Edit: And right after I post that, I check Twitter and see Kimi is confirmed as staying with Ferrari for 2018.

Jenson's Understeer wrote: Edit: And right after I post that, I check Twitter and see Kimi is confirmed as staying with Ferrari for 2018.

Indeed
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13134 ... -f1-season

Unsurprising but complacent, uninspired decision by Ferrari.

mikeyg123 wrote:Unsurprising but complacent, uninspired decision by Ferrari.

It's strange because ultimately, is their goal as a team not to try and win the WCC? Yet unless their car is dominant next year, or their main rivals have woeful reliability/bad luck, Kimi's presence in the team is going to cost them the points they would need to beat a Hamilton/Bottas or Ricciardo/Verstappen pairing.

Raikkonen retained by Ferrari for 2018:
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/head ... -2018.html

Yawn. Such demotivating moves possibly curtail or end careers of drivers in the midfield hoping to shine in F1.

Covalent wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Covalent wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Covalent wrote: Maybe you should ask yourself, aren't you the one who turned the thread into a Hamilton retirement argument?

You mean in response to Hamilton may soon retire, this being put forward with little evidence to back it up?

It's a non-disputable fact that it's a possibility, regardless of if you like it or not.

But nevertheless it's still not a fact, I guess you have not read all the posts in this thread which includes Hamilton's own most recent take on his possible F1 future which didn't include retirement.

But nevertheless it is still a non-disputable fact.

Answering both your posts it's no fact whatsoever in respect to Hamilton retiring in the next year or two.

mikeyg123 wrote:Unsurprising but complacent, uninspired decision by Ferrari.

Or confirmation that Vettel will also be re-signed, rumours stipulated that Vettel included Kimi being re-signed for another year as part of his deal.

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:Unsurprising but complacent, uninspired decision by Ferrari.

Or confirmation that Vettel will also be re-signed, rumours stipulated that Vettel included Kimi being re-signed for another year as part of his deal.

Regardless my comment still apply's and would do even if it meant the possibility of losing Vettel.

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:Unsurprising but complacent, uninspired decision by Ferrari.

Or confirmation that Vettel will also be re-signed, rumours stipulated that Vettel included Kimi being re-signed for another year as part of his deal.

Regardless my comment still aply's and would do even if it meant the possibility of losing Vettel.

I agree it shows Ferrari to be somewhat weak but then again if they sign Vettel who else would they sign as his teammate?

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:Unsurprising but complacent, uninspired decision by Ferrari.

Or confirmation that Vettel will also be re-signed, rumours stipulated that Vettel included Kimi being re-signed for another year as part of his deal.

Regardless my comment still aply's and would do even if it meant the possibility of losing Vettel.

I agree it shows Ferrari to be somewhat weak but then again if they sign Vettel who else would they sign as his teammate?

Elsewhere it's team-mate, at Ferrari it's no. 2 driver, where You can't win or have to let Vettel pass through.

Kimi is perfect for this, no matter how uninspiring this looks. They even risk falling to 3rd in the WCC next year.

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:Unsurprising but complacent, uninspired decision by Ferrari.

Or confirmation that Vettel will also be re-signed, rumours stipulated that Vettel included Kimi being re-signed for another year as part of his deal.

Regardless my comment still aply's and would do even if it meant the possibility of losing Vettel.

I agree it shows Ferrari to be somewhat weak but then again if they sign Vettel who else would they sign as his teammate?

There are better drivers than Vettel available even. That makes pandering to Vettel, If that is what they have done, even more complacent. TBF to Ferrari it is the path most teams go down these days. A driver has to be pretty awful for a team to go for somebody else even if there are better drivers available.

Kimi again. Sigh

mcdo wrote:Kimi again. Sigh

Groan, moan & bwoah even!

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:Unsurprising but complacent, uninspired decision by Ferrari.

Or confirmation that Vettel will also be re-signed, rumours stipulated that Vettel included Kimi being re-signed for another year as part of his deal.

Regardless my comment still aply's and would do even if it meant the possibility of losing Vettel.

I agree it shows Ferrari to be somewhat weak but then again if they sign Vettel who else would they sign as his teammate?

There are better drivers than Vettel available even. That makes pandering to Vettel, If that is what they have done, even more complacent. TBF to Ferrari it is the path most teams go down these days. A driver has to be pretty awful for a team to go for somebody else even if there are better drivers available.

The only driver that meets that description for next season is Alonso and he seems to have burnt his bridges at Ferrari.

pokerman wrote: The only driver that meets that description for next season is Alonso and he seems to have burnt his bridges at Ferrari.

Agree and Alonso's availability should mean Ferrari don't have to pander to Vettel wishes. So they go out and get Perez - Vettel has a choice, Sign for Ferrari and run against a team mate he will almost certainly beat or leave and sign for Mclaren, take a sabbatical or get is agent to bend Toto's ear and end up against Hamilton. To me Ferrari against Perez is the still the best option there.

My point is when the biggest team in F1 hold all the cards and still pander to the driver it perfectly illustrates the current extremely cautious attitude the current teams take with their driving staff.

pokerman wrote:

Covalent wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Covalent wrote:

pokerman wrote: You mean in response to Hamilton may soon retire, this being put forward with little evidence to back it up?

It's a non-disputable fact that it's a possibility, regardless of if you like it or not.

But nevertheless it's still not a fact, I guess you have not read all the posts in this thread which includes Hamilton's own most recent take on his possible F1 future which didn't include retirement.

But nevertheless it is still a non-disputable fact.

Answering both your posts it's no fact whatsoever in respect to Hamilton retiring in the next year or two.

If there is even the slightest chance of it, then it is by definition a fact that he may retire. Why are you arguing this? Are you saying it´s scientifically impossible?

I´m done banging my head against a brick wall.

Hamilton might retire at the end of 2017.

That is obviously a factual statement.

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:Unsurprising but complacent, uninspired decision by Ferrari.

Or confirmation that Vettel will also be re-signed, rumours stipulated that Vettel included Kimi being re-signed for another year as part of his deal.

And prompt reward for submissive lapdog driving. And who knows, if Ferrari was super-dominant next season, he might even end up as a vice-champion and get a win or two gifted at the end of the season after Vettel has secured wdc ...

What a farce!

It would appear that the silly season is not restricted to just the teams and drivers.

UnlikeUday wrote:

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:Unsurprising but complacent, uninspired decision by Ferrari.

Or confirmation that Vettel will also be re-signed, rumours stipulated that Vettel included Kimi being re-signed for another year as part of his deal.

Regardless my comment still aply's and would do even if it meant the possibility of losing Vettel.

I agree it shows Ferrari to be somewhat weak but then again if they sign Vettel who else would they sign as his teammate?

Elsewhere it's team-mate, at Ferrari it's no. 2 driver, where You can't win or have to let Vettel pass through.

Kimi is perfect for this, no matter how uninspiring this looks. They even risk falling to 3rd in the WCC next year.

I have no recollection of Kimi being asked to let Seb pass. I remember Seb having to put a move on kimi so he could chase down Dan & max.

ob1kenobi.23 wrote:

UnlikeUday wrote:

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote: Or confirmation that Vettel will also be re-signed, rumours stipulated that Vettel included Kimi being re-signed for another year as part of his deal.

Regardless my comment still aply's and would do even if it meant the possibility of losing Vettel.

I agree it shows Ferrari to be somewhat weak but then again if they sign Vettel who else would they sign as his teammate?

Elsewhere it's team-mate, at Ferrari it's no. 2 driver, where You can't win or have to let Vettel pass through.

Kimi is perfect for this, no matter how uninspiring this looks. They even risk falling to 3rd in the WCC next year.

I have no recollection of Kimi being asked to let Seb pass. I remember Seb having to put a move on kimi so he could chase down Dan max.

Now don't you go applying logic to their fun, Ob1. It is so much better for some to think that Vettel calls all the shots as to his teammate is to be, That Ferrari doesn't care about the WCC, that Ferrari always has a contracted #2, and that only Ferrari has ever used team orders....


And there ain't no changin' minds!

Elsewhere it's team-mate, at Ferrari it's no. 2 driver, where You can't win or have to let Vettel pass through.

Kimi is perfect for this, no matter how uninspiring this looks. They even risk falling to 3rd in the WCC next year.[/quote]



I have no recollection of Kimi being asked to let Seb pass. I remember Seb having to put a move on kimi so he could chase down Dan max.[/quote]

Now don't you go applying logic to their fun, Ob1. It is so much better for some to think that Vettel calls all the shots as to his teammate is to be, That Ferrari doesn't care about the WCC, that Ferrari always has a contracted #2, and that only Ferrari has ever used team orders....


And there ain't no changin' minds![/quote]

Hi Blake, I miss you being around on the other site. I also really miss Patrick.

Its just that some of the logic here baffles me at times.
It would seem to me as a neutral that Merc have used team orders more than Ferrari this year.

ob1kenobi.23 wrote:It would seem to me as a neutral that Merc have used team orders more than Ferrari this year.

They have, definitely. It wouldn't shock me if Merc have used the most team orders of any team this year.

Blake wrote:

ob1kenobi.23 wrote:

UnlikeUday wrote:

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:Regardless my comment still aply's and would do even if it meant the possibility of losing Vettel.

I agree it shows Ferrari to be somewhat weak but then again if they sign Vettel who else would they sign as his teammate?

Elsewhere it's team-mate, at Ferrari it's no. 2 driver, where You can't win or have to let Vettel pass through.

Kimi is perfect for this, no matter how uninspiring this looks. They even risk falling to 3rd in the WCC next year.

I have no recollection of Kimi being asked to let Seb pass. I remember Seb having to put a move on kimi so he could chase down Dan max.

Now don't you go applying logic to their fun, Ob1. It is so much better for some to think that Vettel calls all the shots as to his teammate is to be, That Ferrari doesn't care about the WCC, that Ferrari always has a contracted #2, and that only Ferrari has ever used team orders....


And there ain't no changin' minds!

I think it's plain to see that Kimi could have won in Hungary against Vettel's crippled car but he wasn't allowed to, Kimi could easily have passed Vettel using the overcut much like Vettel was allowed to do this against Kimi in Monaco to take the lead and win the race, but Kimi's role in Hungary was merely to ride shot gun for Vettel.

Exediron wrote:

ob1kenobi.23 wrote:It would seem to me as a neutral that Merc have used team orders more than Ferrari this year.

They have, definitely. It wouldn't shock me if Merc have used the most team orders of any team this year.

The fact that Hamilton had to give the place back to Bottas shows that they are not really putting all their effort behind one driver like we see with Vettel at Ferrari.

ob1kenobi.23 wrote:

UnlikeUday wrote:

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote: Or confirmation that Vettel will also be re-signed, rumours stipulated that Vettel included Kimi being re-signed for another year as part of his deal.

Regardless my comment still aply's and would do even if it meant the possibility of losing Vettel.

I agree it shows Ferrari to be somewhat weak but then again if they sign Vettel who else would they sign as his teammate?

Elsewhere it's team-mate, at Ferrari it's no. 2 driver, where You can't win or have to let Vettel pass through.

Kimi is perfect for this, no matter how uninspiring this looks. They even risk falling to 3rd in the WCC next year.

I have no recollection of Kimi being asked to let Seb pass. I remember Seb having to put a move on kimi so he could chase down Dan & max.

Ferrari have a more subtle way of sorting that out in the pit stops.

Covalent wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Covalent wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Covalent wrote: It's a non-disputable fact that it's a possibility, regardless of if you like it or not.

But nevertheless it's still not a fact, I guess you have not read all the posts in this thread which includes Hamilton's own most recent take on his possible F1 future which didn't include retirement.

But nevertheless it is still a non-disputable fact.

Answering both your posts it's no fact whatsoever in respect to Hamilton retiring in the next year or two.

If there is even the slightest chance of it, then it is by definition a fact that he may retire. Why are you arguing this? Are you saying it´s scientifically impossible?

I´m done banging my head against a brick wall.

Were is the back ground of evidence that supports that this might happen, it's just a nonsense statement.

Holy sh1t, poker.... Is there ANYTHING that can be said about Lewis other than calling him a SAINT that you won't take issue with?

It is a damned FACT that he could retire early, despite your saying that it is not. The post said that it was a possibility and you have argued it for pages upon pages... it IS a possibility... that is a FACT.

The fact that Hamilton had to give the place back to Bottas shows that they are not really putting all their effort behind one driver like we see with Vettel at Ferrari.

now, about the team orders thing... I knew that you would wield the "but he gave it back" bit for the rest of the year as an example of how Lewis does not benefit from team orders.... however, it was TEAM ORDERS that gave him that place to begin with.... Lewis did not pass his teammate on the trace except by being told he would be let by. There have been other incidents when Lewis has benefited as well. Now, I have long maintained that I have no problem with team orders, but there are two mitigating factors here... one, Hamilton's own condemnation of team orders and put downs of Vettel as having the advantage of being the beneficiary of them... ie #1 status.... and.... the fans in here who rush to condemn anything Ferrari does... even legitimate mistakes as Team Orders.... frikken hypocrits speaking loudly all to often.

The truth is that Hamilton pretty much had to give it back because pretty much the whole F1 world knew that was the condition... even though most of did not think it would really happen. Had he not gotten past Kimi and NOT given it back, the fall-out would have been really rather nasty.... and you would have had so much more defending of his actions and excuses to find as to why it was not really team orders.

ob1kenobi.23 wrote:
Hi Blake, I miss you being around on the other site. I also really miss Patrick.

Its just that some of the logic here baffles me at times.
It would seem to me as a neutral that Merc have used team orders more than Ferrari this year.

Thanks, ob1...

I miss Patrick too, both from an F1 standpoint and a personal one.

I may try to stop in over there again soon... except when I do, there never seems to be anyone there.

BTW, I am going to be in Paris, Barcelona & Frankfurt in February... wonder if any forumites in those areas are gonna arond.

Great play by Ferrari to get Kimi putting more pressure on Vettel.

pokerman wrote:

Covalent wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Covalent wrote:

pokerman wrote: But nevertheless it's still not a fact, I guess you have not read all the posts in this thread which includes Hamilton's own most recent take on his possible F1 future which didn't include retirement.

But nevertheless it is still a non-disputable fact.

Answering both your posts it's no fact whatsoever in respect to Hamilton retiring in the next year or two.

If there is even the slightest chance of it, then it is by definition a fact that he may retire. Why are you arguing this? Are you saying it´s scientifically impossible?

I´m done banging my head against a brick wall.

Were is the back ground of evidence that supports that this might happen, it's just a nonsense statement.

I don't understand why this is so difficult for you to comprehend. For a start, at this point in the season last year where was the background of evidence to suggest Nico Rosberg would retire at the end of the year? Simple answer: there was none. Zero. Nothing at all. There wasn't even any the day after he'd won the WDC. So to say it is a nonsense statement because there is no evidence is, well, a nonsense statement. Congratulations on defeating your own argument there!

And since I can already guess how you're going to try and twist that, the fact that I'm referring to Rosberg's retirement isn't me saying "Nico did it, therefore Lewis is going to retire for the same reason". The point everyone else is trying to make is that it is a fact that a driver can suddenly opt to retire. There does not need to be any evidence, speculation, justification or reasoning to support that. And nobody is saying it is a fact Lewis is going to retire; we are saying it is a fact that Lewis could suddenly choose to retire. Literally the only person who could argue that being a fact is Lewis himself, so unless you are actually Lewis Hamilton, it is impossible for you to argue that fact.

p.s. if you are actually Lewis Hamilton, how come you don't always pick yourself to finish 1st in the Pick 10 competition?!

McLaren have confirmed Vandoorne for 2018:
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/head ... -2018.html

That was the easy part! Try convincing Alonso to stay.

Blake wrote:
Now don't you go applying logic to their fun, Ob1. It is so much better for some to think that Vettel calls all the shots as to his teammate is to be, That Ferrari doesn't care about the WCC, that Ferrari always has a contracted #2, and that only Ferrari has ever used team orders....


And there ain't no changin' minds!

BiB - serious question: do you think Räikkönen's contract is extended because Marchionne and co. think/expect that he can beat or at least seriously challenge Vettel next season (= hired not a a No. 2)? Just curious.

mikeyg123 wrote:Hamilton might retire at the end of 2017.

That is obviously a factual statement.

"I wish I may I wish I might"
It's also factual that space aliens from planet x might visit spa on the weekend...
One of them may drive for McLaren next year.

I think that horse is named Speculation.
spec·u·la·tion
ˌspekyəˈlāSH(ə)n/Submit
noun

The forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence.
"there has been widespread speculation that he plans to quit"

Blake wrote:
Now don't you go applying logic to their fun, Ob1. It is so much better for some to think that Vettel calls all the shots as to his teammate is to be, That Ferrari doesn't care about the WCC, that Ferrari always has a contracted #2, and that only Ferrari has ever used team orders....


And there ain't no changin' minds!

Ferrari have the money buy out anyone's contract and no one would say no to driving for them except probably Hamilton.

Dude, of course they want him to be successful, but come on. Kimi isn't as fast as Vettel and not nearly as consistent, so why haven't they replaced him?

LBET wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:Hamilton might retire at the end of 2017.

That is obviously a factual statement.

"I wish I may I wish I might"
It's also factual that space aliens from planet x might visit spa on the weekend...
One of them may drive for McLaren next year.

I think that horse is named Speculation.
spec·u·la·tion
ˌspekyəˈlāSH(ə)n/Submit
noun

The forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence.
"there has been widespread speculation that he plans to quit"

I don't think anyone's arguing it's anything other than speculation.

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:

Blake wrote:
Now don't you go applying logic to their fun, Ob1. It is so much better for some to think that Vettel calls all the shots as to his teammate is to be, That Ferrari doesn't care about the WCC, that Ferrari always has a contracted #2, and that only Ferrari has ever used team orders....


And there ain't no changin' minds!

BiB - serious question: do you think Räikkönen's contract is extended because Marchionne and co. think/expect that he can beat or at least seriously challenge Vettel next season (= hired not a a No. 2)? Just curious.

Serious answer... yes, I do think that Ferrari extended Kimi's contract because that is what they think is best for Ferrari, for a variety of reasons. Do I think that they feel that Kimi can, baring something unforeseen, beat Vettel over a year? No, I do not think that, but then that is not a critical factor is it? There are very few drivers in the field that I think can beat Seb over a season in the same car. I don't think that Vettel can/would force them to do something that they are opposed to doing. Would they take Vettel's desires in mind? Of course they would. Does anyone seriously think that Lewis was given no chance to voice his thoughts on Bottas? I certainly think that the team chemistry between the two drivers was also a factor. I think that to claim that Ferrari extending Kimi means that they do not care about the WCC is beyond ignorant... though that does not stop some from saying it. I don't think that you can rule out that Ferrari may very well be looking at a bigger picture... ie beyond 2018.

What I do think is...

Kimi's contract was extended because:
1. He still has the ability to help the team even if he does not become a threat to Vettel next year. I don't think that not being a "threat" to Seb is a factor in Ferrari's thinking at all, though it could be in Vettel's mind.
2. Kimi was available and willing to take a 1 year contract... some of the other drivers available might not be, though I don't really think that is a factor. Mostly I think it is for reasons I will explain in a bit here.
3. Kimi is still a capable driver, some of you talk as though he is the lowest level of driver in the series, which is... in my opinion... ridiculous bullsh1t

One must remember that Ferrari does not even have Vettel signed for next year at this point... though I suspect that extension is coming soon. And even if it is, it could be another one year contract, even though that is NOT what Ferrari wants. Still, why would Ferrari seek someone who would pose no threat to Vettel, when Vettel may not even be there next year, or after next year?

Personally, I suspect that Ferrari wanted a 1 year contract with Kimi... not because that is what Seb wanted, but because they want to be free to sign someone else for 2019. I think that they may already have that person in mind, and may have even broached it with them to the extent that they can. It could even be Hamilton? Ferrari doesn't normally hire inexperienced drivers, so I have a feeling that the driver line-up at Sauber in 2018 may be very telling... will we see Leclerc getting a year of F1 experience there next season... a grooming if you will? Perhaps Giovanazzi? The point is, with Kimi's 1 year contract there won't have to be any multi-million dollar buy-outs this time. They will be free to pursue who they wish.

That is my serious thoughts on the issue. Unlike some, who like to speak as though their opinions are facts, I fully acknowledge these are just my thoughts. Unlike some, who seem to have access to the Ferrari boardroom, the closest I have come to them is to be in the same city, but not the same building. Only time will tell, if I am even close to their thinking.

edited for grammatical purposes... - Blake