2017 Monaco Grand Prix Race Thread

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Sutton
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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Sutton »

Even when you go back to the early 90s, Mansell chasing down Senna. Yeah thats all very well and good but there was no chance he was overtaking him.

lamo

Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by lamo »

optimisteprime wrote: But he was also pitted out of traffic - Ferrari had no way of knowing the Sauber in front of him was about to pit. On paper the backmarker situation was the same whether he pitted or not, and Max had just gained an advantage over Bottas from the undercut, so there was no reason to think Bottas wouldn't gain an advantage over Kimi from the undercut too.

It's such a shame, Vettel pulled off an amazing race by pulling those 1'15 laps out of the bag in clean air to earn the victory, but all the conversation is about silly conspiracy theories instead of giving credit where its due.
Max gained 0.2 on Bottas. Kimi was 5 seconds ahead of Bottas and had all the time in the world to keep Kimi out. Bottas was lapping 0.3-0.4 a lap slower on his new SS than his old US. The first 2 sectors for Bottas on his SS were poor (Ferrari saw this, we saw this on live timing). There was no need to pit Kimi that lap - it was clear at the time. Especially when you consider he also would have come out in clean air if he just pitted 1 or 2 laps later. They also saw Max's first flying lap on SS be just 0.1 quicker than what he was doing on his old SS when being held up by Bottas.

Herb Tarlik
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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Herb Tarlik »

sandman1347 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Sutton wrote:Time to axe this shambolic race.
Hand out the points after qualifying, leave the sunday for more posing and drinking on yachts.
I caught this race on review (I was at the Indy 500 and could not watch), and could not agree more. Pure, unmitigated boredom.

Monaco represents the worst in F1 and I hope that the new owners recognize that and either make critical changes (I can't imagine what those would be), or better yet, ax the race and go elsewhere.
I've found myself in this line of thought often over the last few years. There are many circuits on the calendar where it is difficult to overtake but at Monaco it is almost impossible under any normal circumstance. Overtaking attempts are literally more likely to lead to crashes than to passes at Monaco. It just doesn't make much sense to have a "race" in which the cars can't pass each other.

I respect the history of F1 and Monaco is certainly a part of that history. I don't mind the race so much as it's just one weekend and the qualifying session is generally more exciting than most. It's just I don't pretend that the race is anything great. It's actually like watching paint dry for the most part.
Exactly. You are 100% right. I find it more than a little bit bizarre that F1's most important and prestigious race is in fact, a tremendous bore to watch. A race that is not a race. I am very hopeful that Liberty will do something to end this fiasco once and for all. They seem to be very proactive.

Zoue
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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Zoue »

lamo wrote:
optimisteprime wrote: But he was also pitted out of traffic - Ferrari had no way of knowing the Sauber in front of him was about to pit. On paper the backmarker situation was the same whether he pitted or not, and Max had just gained an advantage over Bottas from the undercut, so there was no reason to think Bottas wouldn't gain an advantage over Kimi from the undercut too.

It's such a shame, Vettel pulled off an amazing race by pulling those 1'15 laps out of the bag in clean air to earn the victory, but all the conversation is about silly conspiracy theories instead of giving credit where its due.
Max gained 0.2 on Bottas. Kimi was 5 seconds ahead of Bottas and had all the time in the world to keep Kimi out. Bottas was lapping 0.3-0.4 a lap slower on his new SS than his old US. The first 2 sectors for Bottas on his SS were poor (Ferrari saw this, we saw this on live timing). There was no need to pit Kimi that lap - it was clear at the time. Especially when you consider he also would have come out in clean air if he just pitted 1 or 2 laps later. They also saw Max's first flying lap on SS be just 0.1 quicker than what he was doing on his old SS when being held up by Bottas.
:thumbup:

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UnlikeUday
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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by UnlikeUday »

Feel The Fourth

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UnlikeUday
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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by UnlikeUday »

Great onboard action:

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/feat ... onaco.html

Had Perez made a clean pass on Kvyat as well & finished in the points, it would've been a supreme drive by him. He was 1 of the very few drivers to make overtakes. He overtook Stroll, Vandoorne & Palmer.
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flyboy10
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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by flyboy10 »

Don't know if it was answered already but how come an overcut seemed to be the thing that was happening at Monaco when the undercut is what always works everywhere else?

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Black_Flag_11
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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

flyboy10 wrote:Don't know if it was answered already but how come an overcut seemed to be the thing that was happening at Monaco when the undercut is what always works everywhere else?
No tyre deg, Pirelli estimated that 1 set of ultrasofts would have done the entire GP. Also tyre warmup was an issue apparently.

TheGiantHogweed
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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

lamo wrote:
optimisteprime wrote: But he was also pitted out of traffic - Ferrari had no way of knowing the Sauber in front of him was about to pit. On paper the backmarker situation was the same whether he pitted or not, and Max had just gained an advantage over Bottas from the undercut, so there was no reason to think Bottas wouldn't gain an advantage over Kimi from the undercut too.

It's such a shame, Vettel pulled off an amazing race by pulling those 1'15 laps out of the bag in clean air to earn the victory, but all the conversation is about silly conspiracy theories instead of giving credit where its due.
Max gained 0.2 on Bottas. Kimi was 5 seconds ahead of Bottas and had all the time in the world to keep Kimi out. Bottas was lapping 0.3-0.4 a lap slower on his new SS than his old US. The first 2 sectors for Bottas on his SS were poor (Ferrari saw this, we saw this on live timing). There was no need to pit Kimi that lap - it was clear at the time. Especially when you consider he also would have come out in clean air if he just pitted 1 or 2 laps later. They also saw Max's first flying lap on SS be just 0.1 quicker than what he was doing on his old SS when being held up by Bottas.
Don't Mercedes sometimes need a few laps to warm up their tyres and get the best out of them? As shown in Bottas and Hamilton in qualifying, they usually do better once they've done a few runs. Where as Red Bull and Ferrari seem to be faster instantly. Bottas's times did steadily get faster after he pitted although it took quite some laps before they were faster than what he did on his old tyres. So maybe he didn't perform at his best just after pitting.

TheGiantHogweed
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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

UnlikeUday wrote:Great onboard action:

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/feat ... onaco.html

Had Perez made a clean pass on Kvyat as well & finished in the points, it would've been a supreme drive by him. He was 1 of the very few drivers to make overtakes. He overtook Stroll, Vandoorne & Palmer.
But the fact is that he only was behind all those he overtook because of his own mistake earlier on wouldn't have exactly made his drive that impressive would it even if he didn't crash into Kvyat? He had 2 very clumsy moments. The overtakes he did may have been impressive but it his mistakes made his race overall look really poor.

GingerFurball
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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by GingerFurball »

flyboy10 wrote:Don't know if it was answered already but how come an overcut seemed to be the thing that was happening at Monaco when the undercut is what always works everywhere else?
The undercut would have worked for Verstappen if he could park straight, and would probably have worked for Vettel if he'd pitted first.

lamo

Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by lamo »

GingerFurball wrote:
flyboy10 wrote:Don't know if it was answered already but how come an overcut seemed to be the thing that was happening at Monaco when the undercut is what always works everywhere else?
The undercut would have worked for Verstappen if he could park straight, and would probably have worked for Vettel if he'd pitted first.
It might have worked for Max but it wouldn't have been the tyres it would have been more him being massively held up by Bottas. Look how much quicker Dan was when Bottas stopped holding up both Red Bulls.

So even though Max would have probably been slower on new SS over old US (both in clean air), the fact he had clean air would have made jumping Bottas possible, because Bottas was just slow at that point.

lamo

Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by lamo »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
flyboy10 wrote:Don't know if it was answered already but how come an overcut seemed to be the thing that was happening at Monaco when the undercut is what always works everywhere else?
No tyre deg, Pirelli estimated that 1 set of ultrasofts would have done the entire GP. Also tyre warmup was an issue apparently.
Over cut has happened at Monaco quite a lot over reasons years because of tyre deg and warm up too. Hamilton was confident he could still win in 2014 by overcutting Rosberg but then the SC came out and all stops were made under it. He stayed within 1.5 seconds of Nico the entire first stint and said he was saving the tyres to over cut him and he was confident he could do it an he had a much better race pace that day and all through 2014.

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moby
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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by moby »

I enjoy the razamataz of Monaco, but really can not remember the last time a race was even mildly entertaining.
There is absolutely no chance of overtaking in the new wide cars, and even if the driver in front makes a mistake, it is usually a reshuffle behind the VSC.

Qualli is good, so is it time for a new format maybe? Following on the ethos of qualli, akin to a time trial with each car getting say 4 blocks of time to set their best laps while there are only 5 other cars on the track and staggered.

The Monaco time trials would be more entertaining then watching a train of cars go around in the same order lap after lap.

The alternative is a complete rejig of parts of the track. There is room up near the station for a new section with overtaking opportunities. (unless there is new building on it now :D )

Warnzee
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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Warnzee »

I love Monaco! Totally disagree about it not being exciting or interesting.

It's the intensity that keeps me on the edge of my seat - the fact that at any moment a driver could miss a braking point by a meter and be in the barrier. See the slow motion shots of the cars on the exit of the swimming pool section, literally brushing the barrier with their inside front wheel, immense! Danny Ric actually hitting the barrier and somehow getting away with it.

I've said it a bunch of times - i just love seeing cars being driven on the limit, and the streets of Monaco take it to a whole other level. Lap after lap of millimeter precision in a ~1000 horse power beast, with the pressure of hundreds of team members (and thousands of fans) on the drivers' shoulders. Not much compares in terms of top-level motorsport.

I guess it's like watching an exciting nil-nil draw in football. Just because no one scores doesn't mean it's not tense and exciting. Even more so if you're invested and it's your team playing.

The last few years had negated that, as the drivers were having to babysit their tyres, but not this year. I was transfixed as soon as the five lights started coming on. I'd been up since before five to drive to Lydden Hill and watch the World Rallycross, and didn't get home til after midnight. No way was i going to wait until the next day to watch the Monaco GP though!

I generally don't like street (or park) circuits, which is the really weird thing. Recent attempts like Singapore, Baku, Russia and Valencia just don't appeal in the same way somehow, despite there being the same risks with the barriers a lot of the time. Probably the setting and the history have something to do with that. Singapore cannot be touched in terms of visual spectacle mind, pure Blade Runner from the helicpoter shots.


As for the race, Vettel just had too much pace for Kimi, and Ricciardo smashing in purple sectors to get the final step on the podium was awesome. Perez forcing Vandoorne into the barrier at turn one broke my heart a little bit though. Nothing really wrong with the move - it was a genuine, fair attempt at an overtake - but still. Gutted for Stoffel and the whole McHonda team.

This was another chapter in the best F1 season for a long time. I have totally fallen back in love with the sport after nearly 'quitting' due to the forced spectacle of the massive-deg tyres Pirelli were spec'd with supplying. Bring on Canada!
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Herb Tarlik
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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Herb Tarlik »

Warnzee wrote:I love Monaco! Totally disagree about it not being exciting or interesting.

It's the intensity that keeps me on the edge of my seat - the fact that at any moment a driver could miss a braking point by a meter and be in the barrier. See the slow motion shots of the cars on the exit of the swimming pool section, literally brushing the barrier with their inside front wheel, immense! Danny Ric actually hitting the barrier and somehow getting away with it.

I've said it a bunch of times - i just love seeing cars being driven on the limit,
What makes you think these cars are being driven to their limit? There is a 100% chance that no passing can occur. Given that, why would a driver need to drive to the limit?

I just took a Google maps drive around the Monaco circuit. I'm sure live it's impressive to see, because those roads are incredibly narrow. At the same time, it's easy, very very easy to see why passing never happens.

Monaco is NOT a race. It's a procession.

Warnzee
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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Warnzee »

Perhaps i'm just naive then? :) I enjoy it, and if you dont then that sucks for you, you're the one missing out. I'm not going to try and explain it to you if you don't get it.

Canada up next, which should offer plenty of DRS passes to keep you entertained? Or will you just sit there bitching about how bad Honda are again? Cheer up and enjoy it, and if you can't, go and find something else to make you smile. Life's too short to spend the whole time complaining.
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GingerFurball
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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by GingerFurball »

Monaco is f*cking awesome.

It's a great teaser of a race because you'll rarely get someone waltzing off into the distance. There's always the threat of something happening, and there's plenty of tension knowing that a mistake from the guy in front probably won't just lose him a place, it will cost him the race with the barriers.

Saturdays are spectacular - find me a more thrilling on-board than the run out of Tabac through Piscine. Regardless of the fact the cars barely touch 150 through there, you won't. It is stunning to watch drivers hook it up through there, and it's phenominal to play on F1 games and get it right.

And that's without mentioning the history. It's not just the glitz and the glamour, it's the fact that with the odd safety modification, Vettel this year won round the same streets Schumacher, Senna, Prost, Hill and Fangio won round. It is a literal link to the past that very few tracks have - Monza is probably the only other track on the calendar with the history Monaco has. Even the historic jewels like Spa and Silverstone have been heavily modified.

It's a special race, an iconic race, and the F1 calendar would be far poorer without it.

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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by F1_Ernie »

Sod history, Monaco is a borefest and always is. Bring on Canada, I can't wait.
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Black_Flag_11
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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

I can honestly say I didn't get bored once on Sunday, usually there's a mid race dull patch where nothing is happening and I start checking my phone but with Monaco seeing the cars inches from the barriers at such high speed is entertaining in itself for me.

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mmi16
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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mmi16 »

UnlikeUday wrote:An interesting read:

https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2017/05/ ... aco-f1-gp/
Kimi lost the race - instead of passing the back markers he came upon, he cried about the Blue Flagging - with that Ferrari pitted him so he wouldn't lose further time being held up by the back markers. Seb overtook the back markers and opened a gap that would get him out ahead of Kimi after his own pit stop. Additionally Seb pulled away from Kimi after the pit stop as well as after the Safety car.

Kimi lost pure and simple.
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rivf1
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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by rivf1 »

mmi16 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:An interesting read:

https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2017/05/ ... aco-f1-gp/
Kimi lost the race - instead of passing the back markers he came upon, he cried about the Blue Flagging - with that Ferrari pitted him so he wouldn't lose further time being held up by the back markers. Seb overtook the back markers and opened a gap that would get him out ahead of Kimi after his own pit stop. Additionally Seb pulled away from Kimi after the pit stop as well as after the Safety car.

Kimi lost pure and simple.
Exactly this, seb opened up a gap of 5+ seconds very quickly and easily both times on kimi. If kimi could have opened up a large gap when he was leading than the overcut, the undercut, neither would would have been a factor and he would have won.

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ob1kenobi.23
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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by ob1kenobi.23 »

Kimi seemed to have gotten over his disapointment pretty quickly as he was in good spirits playing football with Seb the next day.
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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Fiki »

chetan_rao wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
chetan_rao wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:I actually find this incident difficult to work out what happened. Verstappen has done what Button did plenty of times here and at other tracks. But drivers that Verstappen has overtaken in the past have allowed him space. If they didn't, it could have resulted in something just as bad. Button was responsible but I think Wehrlein could have gone wider like other drivers have done in the past with Verstappen. Good to see Wehrlein is ok though.
Button lunged in too late and had no space, and Pascal was already turning in so the mirrors wouldn't pick up anything either.
Button was left's huge gap. Its Monaco. You have to take a chance.
A closing gap even before he decided to take it. There was no way he was going to make that turn without touching the inside barrier, even if Pacal was a bit wider.
Every gap is a closing gap if the defender doesn't look, does look but decides it's safe to turn in, or simply thinks closing doors in people's faces is acceptable. I'm not saying Button's move would definitely have worked if Wehrlein had been paying attention, but it isn't as silly as it may have looked.

I can understand Monisha Kaltenborn being critical of Button's lunge, but Wehrlein himself clearly didn't do his homework. He said that "clearly this corner is no place to overtake". If he is to realize his potential as a top driver, he should know better. Even my slightly calcified brain remembered a recent overtake there, just as I remember overtakes at the hairpin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dOf7G4ha44

Every corner is an overtaking opportunity, Pascal.
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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by UnlikeUday »

Fiki wrote:
chetan_rao wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
chetan_rao wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:I actually find this incident difficult to work out what happened. Verstappen has done what Button did plenty of times here and at other tracks. But drivers that Verstappen has overtaken in the past have allowed him space. If they didn't, it could have resulted in something just as bad. Button was responsible but I think Wehrlein could have gone wider like other drivers have done in the past with Verstappen. Good to see Wehrlein is ok though.
Button lunged in too late and had no space, and Pascal was already turning in so the mirrors wouldn't pick up anything either.
Button was left's huge gap. Its Monaco. You have to take a chance.
A closing gap even before he decided to take it. There was no way he was going to make that turn without touching the inside barrier, even if Pacal was a bit wider.
Every gap is a closing gap if the defender doesn't look, does look but decides it's safe to turn in, or simply thinks closing doors in people's faces is acceptable. I'm not saying Button's move would definitely have worked if Wehrlein had been paying attention, but it isn't as silly as it may have looked.

I can understand Monisha Kaltenborn being critical of Button's lunge, but Wehrlein himself clearly didn't do his homework. He said that "clearly this corner is no place to overtake". If he is to realize his potential as a top driver, he should know better. Even my slightly calcified brain remembered a recent overtake there, just as I remember overtakes at the hairpin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dOf7G4ha44

Every corner is an overtaking opportunity, Pascal.
He's quite an ignorant driver, isn't he? No wonder, he got snubbed twice for a drive.
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Lt. Drebin
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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Lt. Drebin »

UnlikeUday wrote:
Fiki wrote:
chetan_rao wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
chetan_rao wrote:
Button lunged in too late and had no space, and Pascal was already turning in so the mirrors wouldn't pick up anything either.
Button was left's huge gap. Its Monaco. You have to take a chance.
A closing gap even before he decided to take it. There was no way he was going to make that turn without touching the inside barrier, even if Pacal was a bit wider.
Every gap is a closing gap if the defender doesn't look, does look but decides it's safe to turn in, or simply thinks closing doors in people's faces is acceptable. I'm not saying Button's move would definitely have worked if Wehrlein had been paying attention, but it isn't as silly as it may have looked.

I can understand Monisha Kaltenborn being critical of Button's lunge, but Wehrlein himself clearly didn't do his homework. He said that "clearly this corner is no place to overtake". If he is to realize his potential as a top driver, he should know better. Even my slightly calcified brain remembered a recent overtake there, just as I remember overtakes at the hairpin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dOf7G4ha44

Every corner is an overtaking opportunity, Pascal.
He's quite an ignorant driver, isn't he? No wonder, he got snubbed twice for a drive.
Button did not have torque and speed for such move, like Hulk. Once when it was clear that he can not even go side by side with Wehrlein, he should brake, but he didn't. The farthest he goes is to align his front wheel with the roll-bar of Whelrein. That's not how an overtake works, except in video game.
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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by rivf1 »

UnlikeUday wrote:Great onboard action:

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/feat ... onaco.html

Had Perez made a clean pass on Kvyat as well & finished in the points, it would've been a supreme drive by him. He was 1 of the very few drivers to make overtakes. He overtook Stroll, Vandoorne & Palmer.
You lost me at he overtook Stroll :lol:

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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Fiki »

Fiki wrote:
chetan_rao wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
chetan_rao wrote:Every gap is a closing gap if the defender doesn't look, does look but decides it's safe to turn in, or simply thinks closing doors in people's faces is acceptable. I'm not saying Button's move would definitely have worked if Wehrlein had been paying attention, but it isn't as silly as it may have looked.

I can understand Monisha Kaltenborn being critical of Button's lunge, but Wehrlein himself clearly didn't do his homework. He said that "clearly this corner is no place to overtake". If he is to realize his potential as a top driver, he should know better. Even my slightly calcified brain remembered a recent overtake there, just as I remember overtakes at the hairpin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dOf7G4ha44

Every corner is an overtaking opportunity, Pascal.
He's quite an ignorant driver, isn't he? No wonder, he got snubbed twice for a drive.
Button did not have torque and speed for such move, like Hulk. Once when it was clear that he can not even go side by side with Wehrlein, he should brake, but he didn't. The farthest he goes is to align his front wheel with the roll-bar of Whelrein. That's not how an overtake works, except in video game.
I'm not aware of where the regulations state a driver has to be able to be fully alongside a car he is trying to overtake, for the defender to become responsible for avoiding an accident. Button had much more alongside than just his front wing.

I am trying to find all the relevant overtaking regulations, once again, because it seems the FIA have removed a number of "clarifications" from them. Perhaps in order to get more "action"? If so, one has to admit Button and Wehrlein provided it.
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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by lamo »

mmi16 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:An interesting read:

https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2017/05/ ... aco-f1-gp/
Kimi lost the race - instead of passing the back markers he came upon, he cried about the Blue Flagging - with that Ferrari pitted him so he wouldn't lose further time being held up by the back markers. Seb overtook the back markers and opened a gap that would get him out ahead of Kimi after his own pit stop. Additionally Seb pulled away from Kimi after the pit stop as well as after the Safety car.

Kimi lost pure and simple.
Ferrari pitted him directly behind 2 back markers when if he had stayed out he would have been behind one. There is no doubt Seb was quicker than Kimi but it was still Kimi's race win if Ferrari gave the race leader the better strategy or even just put them on the same strategy.

Ask yourself this, do you think Ferrari pit Seb into traffic and allow Kimi to run 5 laps longer to try and overtake him? No chance. The drivers aren't equal and so they shoudn't be, Vettel is going for the WDC here.

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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Lt. Drebin »

FIKI wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:Button did not have torque and speed for such move, like Hulk. Once when it was clear that he can not even go side by side with Wehrlein, he should brake, but he didn't. The farthest he goes is to align his front wheel with the roll-bar of Whelrein. That's not how an overtake works, except in video game.
I'm not aware of where the regulations state a driver has to be able to be fully alongside a car he is trying to overtake, for the defender to become responsible for avoiding an accident. Button had much more alongside than just his front wing.

I am trying to find all the relevant overtaking regulations, once again, because it seems the FIA have removed a number of "clarifications" from them. Perhaps in order to get more "action"? If so, one has to admit Button and Wehrlein provided it.
I was not speaking of the regulations. I looked at the incident from all angles and saw that farthest Button goes is to have aligned his front wheel with the roll-bar of Wehrlein. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYWixPw3sKY He also never goes with his wing in the line with Wehrlein's front axle. With such unfavorable position, one can not claim the line. Button could have braked but he went for the gap from impossible position. Therefore the penalty.
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Zoue
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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Zoue »

lamo wrote:
mmi16 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:An interesting read:

https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2017/05/ ... aco-f1-gp/
Kimi lost the race - instead of passing the back markers he came upon, he cried about the Blue Flagging - with that Ferrari pitted him so he wouldn't lose further time being held up by the back markers. Seb overtook the back markers and opened a gap that would get him out ahead of Kimi after his own pit stop. Additionally Seb pulled away from Kimi after the pit stop as well as after the Safety car.

Kimi lost pure and simple.
Ferrari pitted him directly behind 2 back markers when if he had stayed out he would have been behind one. There is no doubt Seb was quicker than Kimi but it was still Kimi's race win if Ferrari gave the race leader the better strategy or even just put them on the same strategy.

Ask yourself this, do you think Ferrari pit Seb into traffic and allow Kimi to run 5 laps longer to try and overtake him? No chance. The drivers aren't equal and so they shoudn't be, Vettel is going for the WDC here.
Added to this that the single back marker in front was common for Kimi and everyone behind him, whereas the two he ended up behind were a problem only for him. He would have been far better off overtaking the single backmarker and then putting the hammer down for a couple of laps so that the other two wouldn't have been an issue. At the very least it would have meant that defending his position would have been entirely in his own hands

I'm not sure Kimi was as slow as all that, either. He put in a pretty impressive time on the harder compound - better than anything Seb did on the same compound - which very nearly matched Seb's fastest lap on the softer rubber. But for the back markers, Kimi would not have lost the place. Afterwards, Kimi by his own admission settled for the place, so we don't really know how fast he could have gone if he'd needed to
Last edited by Zoue on Wed May 31, 2017 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

Zoue
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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Zoue »

Lt. Drebin wrote:
FIKI wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:Button did not have torque and speed for such move, like Hulk. Once when it was clear that he can not even go side by side with Wehrlein, he should brake, but he didn't. The farthest he goes is to align his front wheel with the roll-bar of Whelrein. That's not how an overtake works, except in video game.
I'm not aware of where the regulations state a driver has to be able to be fully alongside a car he is trying to overtake, for the defender to become responsible for avoiding an accident. Button had much more alongside than just his front wing.

I am trying to find all the relevant overtaking regulations, once again, because it seems the FIA have removed a number of "clarifications" from them. Perhaps in order to get more "action"? If so, one has to admit Button and Wehrlein provided it.
I was not speaking of the regulations. I looked at the incident from all angles and saw that farthest Button goes is to have aligned his front wheel with the roll-bar of Wehrlein. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYWixPw3sKY He also never goes with his wing in the line with Wehrlein's front axle. With such unfavorable position, one can not claim the line. Button could have braked but he went for the gap from impossible position. Therefore the penalty.
and yet when Ricciardo barely got level with Kimi's rear axle in 2015 and effectively used Kimi as a braking aid, it wasn't deemed worthy of a penalty. Doesn't seem very consistent

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mds
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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mds »

Zoue wrote:He would have been far better off overtaking the single backmarker and then putting the hammer down for a couple of laps so that the other two wouldn't have been an issue. At the very least it would have meant that defending his position would have been entirely in his own hands
Not even sure he still had anything resembling a hammer left. JA has posted his analysis saying that if Vettel had pitted first, he would have gotten the lead as well.

Basically there was just one way to keep Raikkonen in front and it was pitting Raikkonen first then Vettel immediately after.

In other words: not giving Vettel any chance to play out the tyre advantage he had built up in the first stint. And no I don't believe for a second that Raikkonen could have matched those purples on US tyres.
I'm not sure Kimi was as slow as all that, either. He put in a pretty impressive time on the harder compound - better than anything Seb did on the same compound - which very nearly matched Seb's fastest lap on the softer rubber. But for the back markers, Kimi would not have lost the place. Afterwards, Kimi by his own admission settled for the place, so we don't really know how fast he could have gone if he'd needed to
Well, we don't know how fast Vettel could have gone on the harder tyre if he needed to.
Go Vandoorne :( - Verstappen - Vettel!

Fiki
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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Fiki »

Lt. Drebin wrote:
FIKI wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:Button did not have torque and speed for such move, like Hulk. Once when it was clear that he can not even go side by side with Wehrlein, he should brake, but he didn't. The farthest he goes is to align his front wheel with the roll-bar of Whelrein. That's not how an overtake works, except in video game.
I'm not aware of where the regulations state a driver has to be able to be fully alongside a car he is trying to overtake, for the defender to become responsible for avoiding an accident. Button had much more alongside than just his front wing.

I am trying to find all the relevant overtaking regulations, once again, because it seems the FIA have removed a number of "clarifications" from them. Perhaps in order to get more "action"? If so, one has to admit Button and Wehrlein provided it.
I was not speaking of the regulations. I looked at the incident from all angles and saw that farthest Button goes is to have aligned his front wheel with the roll-bar of Wehrlein. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYWixPw3sKY He also never goes with his wing in the line with Wehrlein's front axle. With such unfavorable position, one can not claim the line. Button could have braked but he went for the gap from impossible position. Therefore the penalty.
I know you weren't speaking of the regulations. But what else are the stewards/we going to base our views of the accident on?

Having read the stewards' verdict, I can only say I don't understand why the racing line is being mentioned. Just as I don't understand why you say a driver can claim the line. Wehrlein says he didn't see Button, because he didn't expect it... As I said, he should be doing his homework. Max showed us two years ago what a driver should expect when complying with the blue flag rules - especially at Monaco!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hd_Lq2Hei_g
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

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Zoue
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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Zoue »

mds wrote:Not even sure he still had anything resembling a hammer left. JA has posted his analysis saying that if Vettel had pitted first, he would have gotten the lead as well.

Basically there was just one way to keep Raikkonen in front and it was pitting Raikkonen first then Vettel immediately after.

In other words: not giving Vettel any chance to play out the tyre advantage he had built up in the first stint. And no I don't believe for a second that Raikkonen could have matched those purples on US tyres.
Funny, because when I read James Allen's article he writes:

However, strangely, on the lap before he pitted, Raikkonen’s middle sector was 35.799s, which was four tenths faster than his previous laps. That would normally get your attention and indicate that there is potentially something left in the tyres and some strategists, under no pressure to stop, would leave him out.

As the team operates a policy of the lead car having the pit stop priority, perhaps what Ferrari should have done is ask Raikkonen what he would like to do and let him make the decision.


JA also wrote:

Raikkonen was leading the race and the rule in Monaco is when leading don’t be the first one to make a move.
There was no real pressure from behind from Mercedes or Red Bull, even though Max Verstappen had just pitted to try to undercut Bottas. Raikkonen still had margin.


and:

Ferrari did not do in the first stint what a team would normally do when seeking a first Monaco win since 2001 and ask the second car to drop back several seconds from the lead car to hold the field up to protect the lead car against Safety Cars and other risks. (They did do this in the second stint to protect Vettel’s position, with Raikkonen dropping back.)
mds wrote:Well, we don't know how fast Vettel could have gone on the harder tyre if he needed to.
But we have a crystal ball where Kimi is concerned?

the fact is that without the back markers there is clear evidence that Kimi had the pace to keep Vettel at bay. His times on the SS when in clear air were close enough to Vettel's times on the US to ensure that Vettel couldn't have made the overcut work without the assistance of the back markers slowing Kimi down. So Kimi being pitted into traffic unnecessarily was the catalyst for him losing the race. It wasn't down to his pace at all

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Lt. Drebin
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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Lt. Drebin »

Fiki wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
FIKI wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:Button did not have torque and speed for such move, like Hulk. Once when it was clear that he can not even go side by side with Wehrlein, he should brake, but he didn't. The farthest he goes is to align his front wheel with the roll-bar of Whelrein. That's not how an overtake works, except in video game.
I'm not aware of where the regulations state a driver has to be able to be fully alongside a car he is trying to overtake, for the defender to become responsible for avoiding an accident. Button had much more alongside than just his front wing.

I am trying to find all the relevant overtaking regulations, once again, because it seems the FIA have removed a number of "clarifications" from them. Perhaps in order to get more "action"? If so, one has to admit Button and Wehrlein provided it.
I was not speaking of the regulations. I looked at the incident from all angles and saw that farthest Button goes is to have aligned his front wheel with the roll-bar of Wehrlein. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYWixPw3sKY He also never goes with his wing in the line with Wehrlein's front axle. With such unfavorable position, one can not claim the line. Button could have braked but he went for the gap from impossible position. Therefore the penalty.
I know you weren't speaking of the regulations. But what else are the stewards/we going to base our views of the accident on?

Having read the stewards' verdict, I can only say I don't understand why the racing line is being mentioned. Just as I don't understand why you say a driver can claim the line. Wehrlein says he didn't see Button, because he didn't expect it... As I said, he should be doing his homework. Max showed us two years ago what a driver should expect when complying with the blue flag rules - especially at Monaco!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hd_Lq2Hei_g
Simply, I just wrote that if a driver is so far back compared to the driver in front, he can not make a case of defense by saying how he had a right to the line he already assumed.
The end is near

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mds
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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mds »

Zoue wrote:Funny, because when I read James Allen's article he writes:

However, strangely, on the lap before he pitted, Raikkonen’s middle sector was 35.799s, which was four tenths faster than his previous laps. That would normally get your attention and indicate that there is potentially something left in the tyres and some strategists, under no pressure to stop, would leave him out.

As the team operates a policy of the lead car having the pit stop priority, perhaps what Ferrari should have done is ask Raikkonen what he would like to do and let him make the decision.


JA also wrote:

Raikkonen was leading the race and the rule in Monaco is when leading don’t be the first one to make a move.
There was no real pressure from behind from Mercedes or Red Bull, even though Max Verstappen had just pitted to try to undercut Bottas. Raikkonen still had margin.


and:

Ferrari did not do in the first stint what a team would normally do when seeking a first Monaco win since 2001 and ask the second car to drop back several seconds from the lead car to hold the field up to protect the lead car against Safety Cars and other risks. (They did do this in the second stint to protect Vettel’s position, with Raikkonen dropping back.)
It's a bit unfair to only mention the arguments supporting your theory and not the ones against it.

Because JA also writes:
Vettel was faster on the day and had he been stopped first he would have undercut Raikkonen. The data shows that. You can also look at Verstappen’s out lap from the pitstop on new Supersoft tyres to see that Vettel would have been even faster and would have undercut Raikkonen.
But we have a crystal ball where Kimi is concerned?
So Kimi was going deliberately slow in the first stint?
the fact is that without the back markers there is clear evidence that Kimi had the pace to keep Vettel at bay. His times on the SS when in clear air were close enough to Vettel's times on the US to ensure that Vettel couldn't have made the overcut work without the assistance of the back markers slowing Kimi down. So Kimi being pitted into traffic unnecessarily was the catalyst for him losing the race. It wasn't down to his pace at all
So this means that Ferrari bet on the backmarkers pitting out of Vettel's way and remaining in front of Raikkonen to engineer Vettel in front.
This also means that Ferrari knew Vettel would be able to go THAT fast.

Going to say it with JA's words then ("that" being Vettel undercutting):
So if it was pure cynical pragmatism to get Vettel ahead, that’s what Ferrari could have done, clean and simple.

And concluding with
But our conclusion – having spoken to insiders, the drivers concerned and strategists involved in the race with deep knowledge of the tyres and what they were doing – is that Ferrari got the outcome it wanted, but on this occasion favouring Vettel wasn’t what they set out to do when they triggered Raikkonen’s stop on Lap 34.
Go Vandoorne :( - Verstappen - Vettel!

lamo

Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by lamo »

Lets put it this way... Ferrari were happy to make it a bit of a lottery of who won the race out of there two drivers. If they played the strategy as you would expect, Kimi wins the races. I.e. don't pit him behind two cars. Leave him out on US when his pace is fine.

Vettel did have 1 car to overtake, Kimi had 2 and it transpired Vettel had 0 cars. Ferrari's actions allowed Vettel to have a chance at winning and also compromised Kimi, that is quite obvious. It was clear at the time there was no need to pit Kimi at that point, all it did was allow Vettel an opportunity to pass him. Its easier to clear one back marker than two.

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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Zoue »

mds wrote: It's a bit unfair to only mention the arguments supporting your theory and not the ones against it.

Because JA also writes:
Vettel was faster on the day and had he been stopped first he would have undercut Raikkonen. The data shows that. You can also look at Verstappen’s out lap from the pitstop on new Supersoft tyres to see that Vettel would have been even faster and would have undercut Raikkonen.
Be fair. You said he had nothing like a hammer left, while omitting to say that JA said Kimi's sector time shows he actually had plenty left in the tank and questioning why Ferrari didn't react to that.

I've already said that Vettel was the faster driver, but it's not strictly relevant. All Kimi needed to be was fast enough to ensure Vettel couldn't close the gap. And the times show he was. I think I'm correct in saying that Kimi put in the fastest time of anyone on the SS tyre, close to Vettel's superfast times on the US. So he had him covered. Without the traffic, Kimi looked to have enough in hand to keep Seb at bay. And once the stops were completed, it wouldn't matter how much faster Seb may have been because he wouldn't have been able to overtake.

I don't really understand the comment about Verstappen's outlap, particularly the bit saying Seb would have been faster. We already know Seb's outlap was faster, but that on its own wasn't enough to secure him the position.


mds wrote:So Kimi was going deliberately slow in the first stint?
Why not? This is somehow unheard of at Monaco? Kimi even alluded to it after the race by saying he knew he couldn't be overtaken and wasn't driving on the limit. OK, he was talking about the second stint but the point still stands that his actual pace wasn't necessarily reflective of his potential pace. He had no reason to believe he was under threat. Until Ferrari pitted him into traffic, of course.

After his pit stop Vettel didn't get anywhere near Kimi's fastest SS lap time, which was set only a couple of laps earlier. Is this indicative of the fact that Seb was slower than Kimi on that tyre (which would tend to contradict the statement that Vettel would have made the overcut work), or a reflection of the fact that he knew he wasn't under threat so felt no need to push to the max?
mds wrote:So this means that Ferrari bet on the backmarkers pitting out of Vettel's way and remaining in front of Raikkonen to engineer Vettel in front.
This also means that Ferrari knew Vettel would be able to go THAT fast.
I don't appreciate this. I've stated previously that there's not enough evidence that Ferrari deliberately sabotaged Kimi's race, but it does suggest that they were putting all their focus onto Vettel and not really paying as much attention as they should have to Kimi's own strategy. Don't create a strawman here. If they had Kimi's best interests in mind, pitting him into backmarkers was not the best thing to do for him. Which is also in the article. Kimi's tyres were not going off, judging by his sector split. He was comfortably enough ahead of Bottas and the Bulls that the back marker immediately in front of him wouldn't have posed a threat. The only threat he did face was from being pitted into traffic. And guess what happened?

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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Prema »

I would put it this way... Ferrari is biased towards Vettel (and I am not judging, just observing).

That was one of those conflicting situations, where both drivers' interests should be given due attention, if no bias involved. But they did not do so. Ferrari provided Vettel with the opportunity to take over the lead through an over-cut, and Vettel took it and executed it. But they did not involve their other driver, Kimi, into the picture, by letting him know what was to happen and giving him a more active role in deciding what he was going to do about it.

On the other hand, Kimi being the most seasoned driver on the grid, ought to anticipate that Vettel would go for it. It would be almost foolish to assume otherwise. And the apparent passiveness of Kimi here is astonishing. Or maybe not? He did just nothing to help himself out. Did he think that the team was working on keeping him in the lead and holding Vettel, their only WDC hope, behind? In that case, sorry Kimi, but you girl brought this upon yourself.

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