Criticism of Lance Stroll

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Re: Criticism of Lance Stroll

Post by jono794 »

spiritone wrote:OH, BOO HOO. While you guys are crying on your keyboards stroll has a Formula one drive and is living a life of luxury. Get over yourselves life has never been fair. You'd think he was the only paid driver in F1.

The kids got talent but needs seat time. New, much faster formula, 18 years old and who knows if he is meshing with the most important guy every race driver needs, his engineer. There is a lot more to racing than just jumping into the car and jumping on the throttle.

So all you critics look around at vandoorne and palmer. two guys who have more experience and justify how great they are doing. For stroll, he'll continue to ignore you posters and enjoy having a F1 drive at least the next two years.

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Re: Criticism of Lance Stroll

Post by mmi16 »

The testing restrictions in today's F1 have new drivers coming to the series with 2 strikes against them and the third strike is out of the pitchers hand and headed to home plate. If they are good, very very good, they foul off that pitch and get to face more pitches and come to grips with the cars and the politics.
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Re: Criticism of Lance Stroll

Post by MistaVega23 »

spiritone wrote:For stroll, he'll continue to ignore you posters and enjoy having a Formula E drive at least the next two years.

Fixed for you.
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Re: Criticism of Lance Stroll

Post by Nosebuckle »

mmi16 wrote:The testing restrictions in today's F1 have new drivers coming to the series with 2 strikes against them and the third strike is out of the pitchers hand and headed to home plate. If they are good, very very good, they foul off that pitch and get to face more pitches and come to grips with the cars and the politics.


No, the lack of testing doesn't put them on the grid with 2 strikes. Stroll had the option of driving in GP2 and could have been Williams test driver to participate in the official testing sessions, not to mention he could have participated in preseason testing and in various practice sessions as the team saw fit to get him more accustomed to the FW40. Fit that into the context that Stroll took the FW36 to several circuits during 2016 to get accustomed to the hybrid cars and the Williams & Mercedes personnel (who we shouldn't forget also staffed his F3 team - a luxury no one else on that grid had) who he's working with now.

He's getting deservedly criticized because he's been saying his F3 title proves his talents (it's diminished when your F3 chassis and engine are being worked on by F1 engineers), which is highly misleading when he neglects the circumstances of his F3 title. It's also warranted because of the testing he did in the older car at various F1 circuits, something virtually no driver receives. Kinda hard to back him when he takes such such an approach and then tries to paper over his performances with lame excuses.

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Re: Criticism of Lance Stroll

Post by nixxxon »

Him being 18 years old is not so much of an excuse, just look at Max.
You're either ready/talented for F1 or you aren't, be 18, 20 or 25 years old.
Unless he improves a lot (or williams keep on willing to "sell" the seat for lots of millions and ignore the results, which is a huge mistake for a midflield team IMO) I cant see him in F1 next year

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Re: Criticism of Lance Stroll

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

nixxxon wrote:Him being 18 years old is not so much of an excuse, just look at Max.
You're either ready/talented for F1 or you aren't, be 18, 20 or 25 years old.
Unless he improves a lot (or williams keep on willing to "sell" the seat for lots of millions and ignore the results, which is a huge mistake for a midflield team IMO) I cant see him in F1 next year


I do actually think age is a bit of an excuse. Yes, Verstappen was much better when he was his age but maybe other drivers at this age won't start out well. There is nothing saying that in time, he won't be as good as Verstappen is now even though I think it is unlikely. And if he had started later, he may possibly have instantly impressed us. I think he just came into F1 too soon. He may improve and he may not. Verstappen just possibly did a better job than any other drivers that comes into F1 at this sort of age will.

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Re: Criticism of Lance Stroll

Post by slide »

I thought he was starting to look slightly more comfortable in the car this weekend

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Re: Criticism of Lance Stroll

Post by mmi16 »

Verstappen's first year - through Canada

7 races - 4 DNF's - 2 finishes out of the points - a 7th as only points finish.

Stroll 1 points finish through Canada - no all that dissimilar.
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Re: Criticism of Lance Stroll

Post by Llotyhy »

Difference being that the Toro Rosso that year was the 7th or 8th fastest car probably, while the Williams is the 4th, or maybe even 3rd if they would field decent drivers, this year.

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Re: Criticism of Lance Stroll

Post by mikeyg123 »

mmi16 wrote:Verstappen's first year - through Canada

7 races - 4 DNF's - 2 finishes out of the points - a 7th as only points finish.

Stroll 1 points finish through Canada - no all that dissimilar.



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Re: Criticism of Lance Stroll

Post by typaH4okc »

Llotyhy wrote:Difference being that the Toro Rosso that year was the 7th or 8th fastest car probably, while the Williams is the 4th, or maybe even 3rd if they would field decent drivers, this year.


I remember Toro Rosso outperforming Red Bull at the start of that season.

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Re: Criticism of Lance Stroll

Post by Exediron »

mmi16 wrote:Verstappen's first year - through Canada

7 races - 4 DNF's - 2 finishes out of the points - a 7th as only points finish.

Stroll 1 points finish through Canada - no all that dissimilar.

Yes, but here's the part where it seems a little less similar...

Verstappen's teammate over the same period: 1 DNF, 2 finishes outside the points - 9 points (3 more than Max)
Stroll's teammate over the same period: 1 DNF, 2 finishes outside the points - 20 points (18 more than Lance)

So both Verstappen and Stroll's teammates had exactly the same mix of DNFs and non-points finishes - but when both finished, it's clear from Massa's results relative to Sainz's that the Williams is a more competitive car.

That said, in my opinion Max did in fact get off to an underwhelming start relative to his hype. He picked up rapidly later in the season, however. We'll see if Stroll does the same.
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Re: Criticism of Lance Stroll

Post by typaH4okc »

Exediron wrote:Yes, but here's the part where it seems a little less similar...

Verstappen's teammate over the same period: 1 DNF, 2 finishes outside the points - 9 points (3 more than Max)
Stroll's teammate over the same period: 1 DNF, 2 finishes outside the points - 20 points (18 more than Lance)

So both Verstappen and Stroll's teammates had exactly the same mix of DNFs and non-points finishes - but when both finished, it's clear from Massa's results relative to Sainz's that the Williams is a more competitive car.

That said, in my opinion Max did in fact get off to an underwhelming start relative to his hype. He picked up rapidly later in the season, however. We'll see if Stroll does the same.


but Sainz was a rookie and Massa is a veteran.

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Re: Criticism of Lance Stroll

Post by mds »

mmi16 wrote:Verstappen's first year - through Canada

7 races - 4 DNF's - 2 finishes out of the points - a 7th as only points finish.

Stroll 1 points finish through Canada - no all that dissimilar.


The results are not all that dissimilar - the performances are wildly dissimilar though.

Both in Australia and in China Verstappen had to retire through car problems while in the top ten. In Monaco he was very impressive, crash was his fault of course but he shouldn't have been there as he was much further up in the early stages but had a disastrous pit stop IIRC. And in Canada his race was pretty much over before it started, having to take additional PU-related grid penalty AND another 10 second penalty during his first stop because of not being able to serve his grid penalty in full.
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Re: Criticism of Lance Stroll

Post by pokerman »

mmi16 wrote:Verstappen's first year - through Canada

7 races - 4 DNF's - 2 finishes out of the points - a 7th as only points finish.

Stroll 1 points finish through Canada - no all that dissimilar.

Apart from Stroll having a better car and being over half a second slower than a tier 2 driver, but still you make a good point for Verstappen not really being ready for F1 either.
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Re: Criticism of Lance Stroll

Post by ReservoirDog »

mmi16 wrote:Verstappen's first year - through Canada

7 races - 4 DNF's - 2 finishes out of the points - a 7th as only points finish.

Stroll 1 points finish through Canada - no all that dissimilar.


If numbers and results is all you see, why do you even watch races? Just go to wikipedia.

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Re: Criticism of Lance Stroll

Post by mds »

pokerman wrote:
mmi16 wrote:Verstappen's first year - through Canada

7 races - 4 DNF's - 2 finishes out of the points - a 7th as only points finish.

Stroll 1 points finish through Canada - no all that dissimilar.

Apart from Stroll having a better car and being over half a second slower than a tier 2 driver, but still you make a good point for Verstappen not really being ready for F1 either.


He actually doesn't - see my post.
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Re: Criticism of Lance Stroll

Post by pokerman »

mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mmi16 wrote:Verstappen's first year - through Canada

7 races - 4 DNF's - 2 finishes out of the points - a 7th as only points finish.

Stroll 1 points finish through Canada - no all that dissimilar.

Apart from Stroll having a better car and being over half a second slower than a tier 2 driver, but still you make a good point for Verstappen not really being ready for F1 either.


He actually doesn't - see my post.

No I wasn't agreeing with Stroll being as good as Verstappen, It's just my own personal opinion about Verstappen.
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Re: Criticism of Lance Stroll

Post by mds »

pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mmi16 wrote:Verstappen's first year - through Canada

7 races - 4 DNF's - 2 finishes out of the points - a 7th as only points finish.

Stroll 1 points finish through Canada - no all that dissimilar.

Apart from Stroll having a better car and being over half a second slower than a tier 2 driver, but still you make a good point for Verstappen not really being ready for F1 either.


He actually doesn't - see my post.

No I wasn't agreeing with Stroll being as good as Verstappen, It's just my own personal opinion about Verstappen.


My point remains: the number of points finishes and DNF's for Verstappen tell nothing about his F1 readiness. He had one DNF his fault, that's it.
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Re: Criticism of Lance Stroll

Post by mcdo »

pokerman wrote:
mmi16 wrote:Verstappen's first year - through Canada

7 races - 4 DNF's - 2 finishes out of the points - a 7th as only points finish.

Stroll 1 points finish through Canada - no all that dissimilar.

Apart from Stroll having a better car and being over half a second slower than a tier 2 driver, but still you make a good point for Verstappen not really being ready for F1 either.

Verstappen was ready for F1. Some drivers just have it straight out of the box and he was one of them
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Re: Criticism of Lance Stroll

Post by pokerman »

mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mmi16 wrote:Verstappen's first year - through Canada

7 races - 4 DNF's - 2 finishes out of the points - a 7th as only points finish.

Stroll 1 points finish through Canada - no all that dissimilar.

Apart from Stroll having a better car and being over half a second slower than a tier 2 driver, but still you make a good point for Verstappen not really being ready for F1 either.

Verstappen was ready for F1. Some drivers just have it straight out of the box and he was one of them

No I don't think he was mature enough, some of the things he has done have not been good like the need to get his own back on drivers for interfering with his race.

Even now I would question his over aggression at the start of races going 3 wide into a chicane leading to damage to cars on both occasions, even someone like Sainz is still quite young and he's still making some outrageous driving decisions.

F1 is not a place for teenager drivers to learn such things, that's why we have the junior categories, obviously some drivers need longer than others to mature, Ocon is very mature for his age.
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Re: Criticism of Lance Stroll

Post by mcdo »

pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mmi16 wrote:Verstappen's first year - through Canada

7 races - 4 DNF's - 2 finishes out of the points - a 7th as only points finish.

Stroll 1 points finish through Canada - no all that dissimilar.

Apart from Stroll having a better car and being over half a second slower than a tier 2 driver, but still you make a good point for Verstappen not really being ready for F1 either.

Verstappen was ready for F1. Some drivers just have it straight out of the box and he was one of them

No I don't think he was mature enough, some of the things he has done have not been good like the need to get his own back on drivers for interfering with his race.

We've had this maturity discussion before. It was pointless (unlike Verstappen's debut season, which was full of points)
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Re: Criticism of Lance Stroll

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pokerman wrote:Even now I would question his over aggression at the start of races going 3 wide into a chicane leading to damage to cars on both occasions, even someone like Sainz is still quite young and he's still making some outrageous driving decisions.

I'm sure you remember a 4xWDC doing the same last year. It happens to the best of them
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Re: Criticism of Lance Stroll

Post by pokerman »

mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mmi16 wrote:Verstappen's first year - through Canada

7 races - 4 DNF's - 2 finishes out of the points - a 7th as only points finish.

Stroll 1 points finish through Canada - no all that dissimilar.

Apart from Stroll having a better car and being over half a second slower than a tier 2 driver, but still you make a good point for Verstappen not really being ready for F1 either.

Verstappen was ready for F1. Some drivers just have it straight out of the box and he was one of them

No I don't think he was mature enough, some of the things he has done have not been good like the need to get his own back on drivers for interfering with his race.

We've had this maturity discussion before. It was pointless (unlike Verstappen's debut season, which was full of points)

I'm not questioning Verstappen's ability, I now view him as being better than Ricciardo, before the start of the season I ventured that if Verstappen continues to drive the way he does then Ricciardo will beat him in the WDC because Verstappen will have too many collisions with other cars.
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Re: Criticism of Lance Stroll

Post by pokerman »

mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:Even now I would question his over aggression at the start of races going 3 wide into a chicane leading to damage to cars on both occasions, even someone like Sainz is still quite young and he's still making some outrageous driving decisions.

I'm sure you remember a 4xWDC doing the same last year. It happens to the best of them

Vettel was not the one making the third car, yet again it was Verstappen trying to squeeze past on the inside of 2 cars, yes Vettel should have left more room but yet again it was Verstappen being over aggressive going into the first corner.
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Re: Criticism of Lance Stroll

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:Even now I would question his over aggression at the start of races going 3 wide into a chicane leading to damage to cars on both occasions, even someone like Sainz is still quite young and he's still making some outrageous driving decisions.

I'm sure you remember a 4xWDC doing the same last year. It happens to the best of them

Vettel was not the one making the third car, yet again it was Verstappen trying to squeeze past on the inside of 2 cars, yes Vettel should have left more room but yet again it was Verstappen being over aggressive going into the first corner.


If you're talking about Spa then that was entirely Vettel's fault. Verstappen had plenty of room on the inside, no need for him to squeeze anywhere. Vettel came across on his team mate who was crowded into Verstappen.

Watch replay's of various starts at Spa. It's pretty often for people to go 3 wide into turn 1. Only becomes a problem when the guy on the outside doesn't consider the idea he may have more than one person on his inside.

Verstappen currently has to be aggressive at the start. the Red Bull can't compete on pace so the only way he can beat any of them is by taking a risk at the start. So when you see opportunistic moves like Canada, that's not Verstappen being over aggressive, it's him trying to get a decent result.

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Re: Criticism of Lance Stroll

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:Even now I would question his over aggression at the start of races going 3 wide into a chicane leading to damage to cars on both occasions, even someone like Sainz is still quite young and he's still making some outrageous driving decisions.

I'm sure you remember a 4xWDC doing the same last year. It happens to the best of them

Vettel was not the one making the third car, yet again it was Verstappen trying to squeeze past on the inside of 2 cars, yes Vettel should have left more room but yet again it was Verstappen being over aggressive going into the first corner.


If you're talking about Spa then that was entirely Vettel's fault. Verstappen had plenty of room on the inside, no need for him to squeeze anywhere. Vettel came across on his team mate who was crowded into Verstappen.

Watch replay's of various starts at Spa. It's pretty often for people to go 3 wide into turn 1. Only becomes a problem when the guy on the outside doesn't consider the idea he may have more than one person on his inside.

Verstappen currently has to be aggressive at the start. the Red Bull can't compete on pace so the only way he can beat any of them is by taking a risk at the start. So when you see opportunistic moves like Canada, that's not Verstappen being over aggressive, it's him trying to get a decent result.

I wasn't exactly blaming Verstappen for Spa as I mentioned Vettel didn't give enough room, we seem to be in agreement about Verstappen being over aggressive on the starts though we give different reasons for that, Ricciardo after all is in the same boat, more experienced drivers perhaps put more emphasis on coming out of the first corner with still all the bits attached to the car or not broken?
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Re: Criticism of Lance Stroll

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:Even now I would question his over aggression at the start of races going 3 wide into a chicane leading to damage to cars on both occasions, even someone like Sainz is still quite young and he's still making some outrageous driving decisions.

I'm sure you remember a 4xWDC doing the same last year. It happens to the best of them

Vettel was not the one making the third car, yet again it was Verstappen trying to squeeze past on the inside of 2 cars, yes Vettel should have left more room but yet again it was Verstappen being over aggressive going into the first corner.


If you're talking about Spa then that was entirely Vettel's fault. Verstappen had plenty of room on the inside, no need for him to squeeze anywhere. Vettel came across on his team mate who was crowded into Verstappen.

Watch replay's of various starts at Spa. It's pretty often for people to go 3 wide into turn 1. Only becomes a problem when the guy on the outside doesn't consider the idea he may have more than one person on his inside.

Verstappen currently has to be aggressive at the start. the Red Bull can't compete on pace so the only way he can beat any of them is by taking a risk at the start. So when you see opportunistic moves like Canada, that's not Verstappen being over aggressive, it's him trying to get a decent result.

I wasn't exactly blaming Verstappen for Spa as I mentioned Vettel didn't give enough room, we seem to be in agreement about Verstappen being over aggressive on the starts though we give different reasons for that, Ricciardo after all is in the same boat, more experienced drivers perhaps put more emphasis on coming out of the first corner with still all the bits attached to the car or not broken?


I don't really think Verstappen is over aggressive. Just aggressive and he can afford to be.

As a result of which he is starting to be rated above Ricciardo. You yourself said you thought he was doing a better job this season. Perhaps part of that perception is that he finds himself a bit higher up after taking more risks at the start? If people are rating him higher than Ricciardo then he is doing what he needs to do. Keep his stock high until he can challenge for the championship.

Without the extra DNF Verstappen would be ahead of Ricciardo in the WDC. Whatever he is doing its working.

Red Bull will finish 3rd in the WCC. Certainly. So in that situation it's the sensible decision to gamble a 5th for a chance of getting 3rd. We are a third of the way through the season and Verstappen hasn't lost points due to his aggressive starts. Even if he has two retirements because of it in the next 13 races Red Bull will still finish 3rd in WCC but at least they may be 3rd with some notable results and podiums.

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Re: Criticism of Lance Stroll

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:I'm sure you remember a 4xWDC doing the same last year. It happens to the best of them

Vettel was not the one making the third car, yet again it was Verstappen trying to squeeze past on the inside of 2 cars, yes Vettel should have left more room but yet again it was Verstappen being over aggressive going into the first corner.


If you're talking about Spa then that was entirely Vettel's fault. Verstappen had plenty of room on the inside, no need for him to squeeze anywhere. Vettel came across on his team mate who was crowded into Verstappen.

Watch replay's of various starts at Spa. It's pretty often for people to go 3 wide into turn 1. Only becomes a problem when the guy on the outside doesn't consider the idea he may have more than one person on his inside.

Verstappen currently has to be aggressive at the start. the Red Bull can't compete on pace so the only way he can beat any of them is by taking a risk at the start. So when you see opportunistic moves like Canada, that's not Verstappen being over aggressive, it's him trying to get a decent result.

I wasn't exactly blaming Verstappen for Spa as I mentioned Vettel didn't give enough room, we seem to be in agreement about Verstappen being over aggressive on the starts though we give different reasons for that, Ricciardo after all is in the same boat, more experienced drivers perhaps put more emphasis on coming out of the first corner with still all the bits attached to the car or not broken?


I don't really think Verstappen is over aggressive. Just aggressive and he can afford to be.

As a result of which he is starting to be rated above Ricciardo. You yourself said you thought he was doing a better job this season. Perhaps part of that perception is that he finds himself a bit higher up after taking more risks at the start? If people are rating him higher than Ricciardo then he is doing what he needs to do. Keep his stock high until he can challenge for the championship.

Without the extra DNF Verstappen would be ahead of Ricciardo in the WDC. Whatever he is doing its working.

Red Bull will finish 3rd in the WCC. Certainly. So in that situation it's the sensible decision to gamble a 5th for a chance of getting 3rd. We are a third of the way through the season and Verstappen hasn't lost points due to his aggressive starts. Even if he has two retirements because of it in the next 13 races Red Bull will still finish 3rd in WCC but at least they may be 3rd with some notable results and podiums.

I said I rated him above Ricciardo because I believe he is the faster driver which would include qualifying and race pace, however crashing out of races wouldn't be included in doing a better job, both Ricciardo and Verstappen have had one mechanical DNF I believe so the points are what they are.
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Re: Criticism of Lance Stroll

Post by mds »

pokerman wrote:I said I rated him above Ricciardo because I believe he is the faster driver which would include qualifying and race pace, however crashing out of races wouldn't be included in doing a better job, both Ricciardo and Verstappen have had one mechanical DNF I believe so the points are what they are.


?
Ricciardo has 2 DNF's not his fault, Verstappen 3 - and crucially if memory serves Verstappen was (almost?) always ahead when either he or Ricciardo retired.

Without all the bad luck Verstappen would be comfortably ahead.
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Re: Criticism of Lance Stroll

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:I said I rated him above Ricciardo because I believe he is the faster driver which would include qualifying and race pace, however crashing out of races wouldn't be included in doing a better job, both Ricciardo and Verstappen have had one mechanical DNF I believe so the points are what they are.


Nope. They have had two and Verstappen has been the victim of a first corner accident where he wasn't being aggressive and just got caught up in someone else's mess. So that's 3 no scores for him that were no fault of his own.

Neither have crashed out of any races so obviously it can't be a factor in your rating.

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Re: Criticism of Lance Stroll

Post by pokerman »

mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:I said I rated him above Ricciardo because I believe he is the faster driver which would include qualifying and race pace, however crashing out of races wouldn't be included in doing a better job, both Ricciardo and Verstappen have had one mechanical DNF I believe so the points are what they are.


?
Ricciardo has 2 DNF's not his fault, Verstappen 3 - and crucially if memory serves Verstappen was (almost?) always ahead when either he or Ricciardo retired.

Without all the bad luck Verstappen would be comfortably ahead.

I don't class the crash with Kimi has being a none fault incident, he chose to put his car 3 abreast into the chicane and he came unstuck, you take the risk and sometimes it pays off and sometimes it doesn't, I would say he got lucky against Vettel in Canada, both cars could have been damaged and not just Vettel's.
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Re: Criticism of Lance Stroll

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:I said I rated him above Ricciardo because I believe he is the faster driver which would include qualifying and race pace, however crashing out of races wouldn't be included in doing a better job, both Ricciardo and Verstappen have had one mechanical DNF I believe so the points are what they are.


Nope. They have had two and Verstappen has been the victim of a first corner accident where he wasn't being aggressive and just got caught up in someone else's mess. So that's 3 no scores for him that were no fault of his own.

Neither have crashed out of any races so obviously it can't be a factor in your rating.

Like I replied to mds he tried an aggressive pass against Kimi and he came unstuck, two races out of seven he's had contact at the start of the races because he's totally going for it everytime were you can see other drivers being much more cautious, you reap what you sow.
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Re: Criticism of Lance Stroll

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:I said I rated him above Ricciardo because I believe he is the faster driver which would include qualifying and race pace, however crashing out of races wouldn't be included in doing a better job, both Ricciardo and Verstappen have had one mechanical DNF I believe so the points are what they are.


Nope. They have had two and Verstappen has been the victim of a first corner accident where he wasn't being aggressive and just got caught up in someone else's mess. So that's 3 no scores for him that were no fault of his own.

Neither have crashed out of any races so obviously it can't be a factor in your rating.

Like I replied to mds he tried an aggressive pass against Kimi and he came unstuck, two races out of seven he's had contact at the start of the races because he's totally going for it everytime were you can see other drivers being much more cautious, you reap what you sow.


Blaming Verstappen for that is a bit like blaming Massa for his retirement in Canada.... Both drivers caught up in someone elses crash.

Once again, you can look down the order over many years of starts at the Spanish grand prix and see drivers go 3 wide through there. Nothing unusual about what Verstappen was doing.

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Re: Criticism of Lance Stroll

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:I said I rated him above Ricciardo because I believe he is the faster driver which would include qualifying and race pace, however crashing out of races wouldn't be included in doing a better job, both Ricciardo and Verstappen have had one mechanical DNF I believe so the points are what they are.


Nope. They have had two and Verstappen has been the victim of a first corner accident where he wasn't being aggressive and just got caught up in someone else's mess. So that's 3 no scores for him that were no fault of his own.

Neither have crashed out of any races so obviously it can't be a factor in your rating.

Like I replied to mds he tried an aggressive pass against Kimi and he came unstuck, two races out of seven he's had contact at the start of the races because he's totally going for it everytime were you can see other drivers being much more cautious, you reap what you sow.


Blaming Verstappen for that is a bit like blaming Massa for his retirement in Canada.... Both drivers caught up in someone elses crash.

Once again, you can look down the order over many years of starts at the Spanish grand prix and see drivers go 3 wide through there. Nothing unusual about what Verstappen was doing.

It's nothing like what happened with Massa, he was in front minding his own business whilst Verstappen is always the driver coming from behind looking to make things happen.

You have already agreed with me that Verstappen is aggressive on the starts, with that comes an element of risk, risk that took him from 5th to 2nd in Canada but how close was it to having a rear puncture after hitting Vettel's car?
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Re: Criticism of Lance Stroll

Post by mikeyg123 »

No, it's the same. Verstappen was collected by someone else accident just like Massa. Verstappen's car position was not a factor in Bottas running into Kimi just like Massa's wasn't a factor in Sainz and Grosjean's.

You do this sometimes. Decide a driver is aggressive and then hold him responsible for every incident he gets caught up in.

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Re: Criticism of Lance Stroll

Post by SmoothRide »

Verstappen is overly aggressive though he has mostly gotten away with it so far with some (or a lot) of luck involved. He's suffered retirements this year, but they were, on the face of it, unrelated to his driving style. An interesting thing is that he has out-qualified Ricciardo in three straight races now, and he has generally looked faster in races too.

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Re: Criticism of Lance Stroll

Post by mikeyg123 »

SmoothRide wrote:Verstappen is overly aggressive though he has mostly gotten away with it so far with some (or a lot) of luck involved. He's suffered retirements this year, but they were, on the face of it, unrelated to his driving style. An interesting thing is that he has out-qualified Ricciardo in three straight races now, and he has generally looked faster in races too.


Verstappen is improving and will continue to improve. Last season Ricciardo clearly had the edge, this season I think they have been fairly even with Verstappen perhaps nudging ahead. Verstappen is still only a teenager so will still have plenty of upside. We are probably a good 3-5 years away from him fully maturing.

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Re: Criticism of Lance Stroll

Post by SmoothRide »

mikeyg123 wrote:
SmoothRide wrote:Verstappen is overly aggressive though he has mostly gotten away with it so far with some (or a lot) of luck involved. He's suffered retirements this year, but they were, on the face of it, unrelated to his driving style. An interesting thing is that he has out-qualified Ricciardo in three straight races now, and he has generally looked faster in races too.


Verstappen is improving and will continue to improve. Last season Ricciardo clearly had the edge, this season I think they have been fairly even with Verstappen perhaps nudging ahead. Verstappen is still only a teenager so will still have plenty of upside. We are probably a good 3-5 years away from him fully maturing.


He will improve his decision making skills, but that will probably make him more cautious rather than become more aggressive. The odds are going to catch up with him if he continues to take major risks. The main question right now is whether he is faster than Ricciardo on ultimate pace. As of today, I would say that he is faster. Not by much, but he is setting a pattern as we speak. It will be very interesting to see how he progresses from now on...

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Re: Criticism of Lance Stroll

Post by mikeyg123 »

SmoothRide wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
SmoothRide wrote:Verstappen is overly aggressive though he has mostly gotten away with it so far with some (or a lot) of luck involved. He's suffered retirements this year, but they were, on the face of it, unrelated to his driving style. An interesting thing is that he has out-qualified Ricciardo in three straight races now, and he has generally looked faster in races too.


Verstappen is improving and will continue to improve. Last season Ricciardo clearly had the edge, this season I think they have been fairly even with Verstappen perhaps nudging ahead. Verstappen is still only a teenager so will still have plenty of upside. We are probably a good 3-5 years away from him fully maturing.


He will improve his decision making skills, but that will probably make him more cautious rather than become more aggressive. The odds are going to catch up with him if he continues to take major risks. The main question right now is whether he is faster than Ricciardo on ultimate pace. As of today, I would say that he is faster. Not by much, but he is setting a pattern as we speak. It will be very interesting to see how he progresses from now on...


He'll continue to get quicker too. He is faster than Ricciardo this year compared to last so improvement is visible.

I think even now, give him a championship contending car and he would not be making the same decisions he is making now. Right now the best decision is to take a risk.

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