planetf1.com

F1 MERCENARY wrote:No way last second. Massa was alongside for a long while BEFORE they even reached the turn. No excuse for the turn in.

mcdo wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:

mcdo wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:At that very moment one word popped into my head… Scrub

This is such an insulting term and I'm growing to despise you the more you use it

Now, that's unless Stoffel Vandoorne has been hanging out the passenger side of his best friend's ride, trying to holler at you. In that case I stand corrected

Sorry, am I supposed to care how you feel about me? As far as I am aware I have the liberty to use the word Scrub if "I" feel it is warranted.

"IF" you guys reference the other thread where Zack Brown talked him up as being as good as some elite ALL-TIME greats, and look at all the commentary in there about how people are inclined to not only believe but agree with such nonsense, Vandoorne's performance thus far deems him a scrub. You don't have to agree with me but you also don't have to chime in to say things from your pedestal.

While I am educated, JUST LIKE Stephen A. Smith, I grew up in the hood and can speak properly whilst interjecting a little reality from my upbringing, which you likely know nothing about and can't relate.

Feel free to search youtube for Stephen A. Smith Kwame Brown and have a listen. Does the fact he calls him a SCRUB so vehemently warrant anyone to despise him because they disagree? I don't think so, and he is entitled to his opinion, of which I happened to agree with.

If you compare this next anointed one to those he was said to be as good as or better, he's performed FAR below those bold projections. I on the other hand stated that it was indeed far too bold a statement to make specifically because he'd never driven a lap in an F1 car and we would only ever be able to comment on his ability once we got to see him turn laps. I've seen too many "Next Best Things" make it to the bigtime in several sports, only to see them fail miserably. I'm not saying Vandoorne wont ever become superb, but right now he is NOWHERE in the vicinity of being as good as Zack Brown stated.

Unless he was in the middle of a very long build up to a sneeze, his take on the clash with Massa is total and utter BS.

"He was “quite surprised” to find Felipe Massa alongside him when he went into Turn 1 in Spain."

http://www.planetf1.com/news/vandoorne- ... a-contact/

Sorry but Massa was not only alongside him for a VERY long way, but was even ahead of him and Vandoorne either deliberately turned in on him or he lacks total spacial awareness, and going based off his entire career, I'm inclined to say it wasn't the latter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMi3sUnR5nw

His penalty at Monaco is rather light in my opinion.

All I see is Americans having to go to extremes to make their point. Zak Brown on one extreme end of the scale, your good self on the other. Difference of culture I guess

Fact of the matter is Stoffel Vandoorne is a good driver. Nothing more, nothing less at this early stage

mikeyg123 wrote:And 5 races of not matching the best in the sport does not negate a phenomenal junior record. I really don't see how people could've expected much better. So far Vandoorne is at least as close as Kimi was and he has managed a decent career.

Exediron wrote:

mcdo wrote:All I see is Americans having to go to extremes to make their point. Zak Brown on one extreme end of the scale, your good self on the other. Difference of culture I guess

Fact of the matter is Stoffel Vandoorne is a good driver. Nothing more, nothing less at this early stage

It's a bit ironic to complain about people going to unreasonable extremes in the same sentence you claim that all Americans do it...

F1 MERCENARY wrote:Vandoorne either deliberately turned in on him or he lacks total spacial awareness, and going based off his entire career, I'm inclined to say it wasn't the latter.

guardiangr wrote:Seriously now? After only 5 races where he completed ONLY 2 of them with 2 DNFs and 1 DNS? The nerve of couch critics today where they expect every rookie to instantly perform like Hamilton did in 2007 like that's the norm and not the exception, while he's driving a dog of a car and against one of the best drivers currently.

Give the new guys some slack, let them race and if 2 years from now are nowhere THEN you can say whatever you want.

F1 MERCENARY wrote:

mcdo wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:

mcdo wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:At that very moment one word popped into my head… Scrub

This is such an insulting term and I'm growing to despise you the more you use it

Now, that's unless Stoffel Vandoorne has been hanging out the passenger side of his best friend's ride, trying to holler at you. In that case I stand corrected

Sorry, am I supposed to care how you feel about me? As far as I am aware I have the liberty to use the word Scrub if "I" feel it is warranted.

"IF" you guys reference the other thread where Zack Brown talked him up as being as good as some elite ALL-TIME greats, and look at all the commentary in there about how people are inclined to not only believe but agree with such nonsense, Vandoorne's performance thus far deems him a scrub. You don't have to agree with me but you also don't have to chime in to say things from your pedestal.

While I am educated, JUST LIKE Stephen A. Smith, I grew up in the hood and can speak properly whilst interjecting a little reality from my upbringing, which you likely know nothing about and can't relate.

Feel free to search youtube for Stephen A. Smith Kwame Brown and have a listen. Does the fact he calls him a SCRUB so vehemently warrant anyone to despise him because they disagree? I don't think so, and he is entitled to his opinion, of which I happened to agree with.

If you compare this next anointed one to those he was said to be as good as or better, he's performed FAR below those bold projections. I on the other hand stated that it was indeed far too bold a statement to make specifically because he'd never driven a lap in an F1 car and we would only ever be able to comment on his ability once we got to see him turn laps. I've seen too many "Next Best Things" make it to the bigtime in several sports, only to see them fail miserably. I'm not saying Vandoorne wont ever become superb, but right now he is NOWHERE in the vicinity of being as good as Zack Brown stated.

Unless he was in the middle of a very long build up to a sneeze, his take on the clash with Massa is total and utter BS.

"He was “quite surprised” to find Felipe Massa alongside him when he went into Turn 1 in Spain."

http://www.planetf1.com/news/vandoorne- ... a-contact/

Sorry but Massa was not only alongside him for a VERY long way, but was even ahead of him and Vandoorne either deliberately turned in on him or he lacks total spacial awareness, and going based off his entire career, I'm inclined to say it wasn't the latter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMi3sUnR5nw

His penalty at Monaco is rather light in my opinion.

All I see is Americans having to go to extremes to make their point. Zak Brown on one extreme end of the scale, your good self on the other. Difference of culture I guess

Fact of the matter is Stoffel Vandoorne is a good driver. Nothing more, nothing less at this early stage

YOU might think he's a good driver, nothing more, nothing less, but others were adamant Brown wasn't too far off in his statement, which is absurd to agree with without ever having seen him in and among the best drivers in F1 or even in an actual f1 car for that matter.

His clash with Massa may have been s mistake but it was a bad one. The fact he didn't cost Massa his race is irrelevant because it doesn't negate the fact he made a silly mistake.

Pullrod wrote:The problem is that we have seen no peaks from Vandoorne. Yes 5 races are not a lot, but in practice, qualifying or in the race, it is possible to produce a "burst" of something.

Rosberg had plenty of peaks although his racecraft was terrible but look how much it improved(his racecraft). If you have no peaks, you will not do wonders at the front.

I just find annoying that we must thank Vandoorne for his awesome job because he is not matching Alonso(which is impossible according to some), but at the same time people crucified Kovalainen, Magnussen and Perez for not beating Hamilton or Button.
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My opinion is that Vandoorne may be needs to deconstruct his driving style and eliminate all his "bad" habits from his racing in the minor series to be competitive in F1(Boullier hinted at something similar).

May be it is just the case of someone who started much later in F1 (like Sebastien Bourdais) and find it difficult to change his driving style.
In a way it reminds me of the world of quantitative finance where in some research groups, they prefer Computer Scientists/Physicists/Mathematicians/Engineers who know NOTHING about finance as they believe a lot of what is written in the Finance books(or what is taught at the university) is rubbish and actually counterproductive if you want to build profitable models.

He should have started F1 racing 3-4 years ago at least.

Zoue wrote:

Pullrod wrote:The problem is that we have seen no peaks from Vandoorne. Yes 5 races are not a lot, but in practice, qualifying or in the race, it is possible to produce a "burst" of something.

Rosberg had plenty of peaks although his racecraft was terrible but look how much it improved(his racecraft). If you have no peaks, you will not do wonders at the front.

I just find annoying that we must thank Vandoorne for his awesome job because he is not matching Alonso(which is impossible according to some), but at the same time people crucified Kovalainen, Magnussen and Perez for not beating Hamilton or Button.
__


My opinion is that Vandoorne may be needs to deconstruct his driving style and eliminate all his "bad" habits from his racing in the minor series to be competitive in F1(Boullier hinted at something similar).

May be it is just the case of someone who started much later in F1 (like Sebastien Bourdais) and find it difficult to change his driving style.
In a way it reminds me of the world of quantitative finance where in some research groups, they prefer Computer Scientists/Physicists/Mathematicians/Engineers who know NOTHING about finance as they believe a lot of what is written in the Finance books(or what is taught at the university) is rubbish and actually counterproductive if you want to build profitable models.

He should have started F1 racing 3-4 years ago at least.

I'm not sure your comparisons are all apt.

Kovaleinen was in his 2nd year of F1 and was sat in one of the best cars on the grid, but made it look like a midfield car at best. In his 2nd year at McLaren the car wasn't as strong, but that was his 3rd year in F1 and Hamilton was fighting for wins, while Kovy couldn't get near a podium. He was just poor but he had two years to show what he could do. Which wasn't much, as it turned out.

I don't think I've seen Perez slated that much, tbh. I've seen many people put forward the argument that he wasn't given a fair crack of the whip at McLaren. But he joined them in his 3rd year in F1, so his learning curve should have been sorted by then, too. I think he as just a victim of the Dennis-Whitmarsh power play but I don't remember anyone saying he was rubbish.

Magnussen is probably the most comparable and I remember him being hyped on a similar level to Vandoorne when he joined McLaren. Again, I don't remember him being slated exactly, but he had the misfortune to be pairing a former WDC while McLaren offered arguably the best driver on the grid - and another former WDC - a seat at the team. It's understandable that he was the one left without a seat. But I think he was given a chance in his first year.

Pullrod wrote:The problem is that we have seen no peaks from Vandoorne. Yes 5 races are not a lot, but in practice, qualifying or in the race, it is possible to produce a "burst" of something.

mcdo wrote:

Pullrod wrote:The problem is that we have seen no peaks from Vandoorne. Yes 5 races are not a lot, but in practice, qualifying or in the race, it is possible to produce a "burst" of something.

His debut GP was most certainly a peak. And that was a major reason why I believed he was going to be a lot closer to Alonso this year

kleefton wrote:I still believe there is some quality in Stoffel, but I must admit I've been taken aback to how little he has done so far in F1.
Yes the car isn't good nor reliable and he is not always getting the same parts as Alonso, if you go by what he said. But I just do not see anything so far from him that might suggest he is going to be great. Ok, in a car that slow and difficult to drive I'm not asking for speed yet, but where is the race craft? Has he overtaken anyone so far this year? Again, hard to do with that car. But Jules Bianchi used to shine in what was almost always the worst car on the grid so why haven't we seen Vandoorne do anything remotely similar so far? Right at this moment if we were to rate the worst drivers on the grid, he might be among the worst three...
It may be too early to tell, as many have pointed out, so I'll reserve final judgement for later, but so far not so good.

mcdo wrote:He's the most successful GP2 driver of all time. That's a good driver. Whether that translates into F1 success remains to be seen

mikeyg123 wrote:

kleefton wrote:I still believe there is some quality in Stoffel, but I must admit I've been taken aback to how little he has done so far in F1.
Yes the car isn't good nor reliable and he is not always getting the same parts as Alonso, if you go by what he said. But I just do not see anything so far from him that might suggest he is going to be great. Ok, in a car that slow and difficult to drive I'm not asking for speed yet, but where is the race craft? Has he overtaken anyone so far this year? Again, hard to do with that car. But Jules Bianchi used to shine in what was almost always the worst car on the grid so why haven't we seen Vandoorne do anything remotely similar so far? Right at this moment if we were to rate the worst drivers on the grid, he might be among the worst three...
It may be too early to tell, as many have pointed out, so I'll reserve final judgement for later, but so far not so good.

Would Bianchi have looked good though if his team mate was qualifying half a second faster and racing higher up the order? Much easier to shine if your team mate is Max Chilton than Alonso. Look at another rookie Ocon. Can't beat Perez Perez but isn't under pressure because the car is able to score regular points. If Alonso was fighting for 6/7 And Stoffel 10/11 then he wouldn't be getting criticised even if the gap was the same.

Basically he us the victim of a car slower than most people expected and having a great team mate.

kleefton wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

kleefton wrote:I still believe there is some quality in Stoffel, but I must admit I've been taken aback to how little he has done so far in F1.
Yes the car isn't good nor reliable and he is not always getting the same parts as Alonso, if you go by what he said. But I just do not see anything so far from him that might suggest he is going to be great. Ok, in a car that slow and difficult to drive I'm not asking for speed yet, but where is the race craft? Has he overtaken anyone so far this year? Again, hard to do with that car. But Jules Bianchi used to shine in what was almost always the worst car on the grid so why haven't we seen Vandoorne do anything remotely similar so far? Right at this moment if we were to rate the worst drivers on the grid, he might be among the worst three...
It may be too early to tell, as many have pointed out, so I'll reserve final judgement for later, but so far not so good.

Would Bianchi have looked good though if his team mate was qualifying half a second faster and racing higher up the order? Much easier to shine if your team mate is Max Chilton than Alonso. Look at another rookie Ocon. Can't beat Perez Perez but isn't under pressure because the car is able to score regular points. If Alonso was fighting for 6/7 And Stoffel 10/11 then he wouldn't be getting criticised even if the gap was the same.

Basically he us the victim of a car slower than most people expected and having a great team mate.

Bianchi didnt just dominate Chilton, he used to beat the Caterham drivers as well, and consistently.

Now with Vandoorne, there were people in the sport saying he was better than Vettel, better than Hamilton. He was supposed to be great, not just good. Ocon wasnt nearly as highly rated so i wouldnt compare them. The problem is that so far Vandoorne has not even been decent, so forget about great. Im not burying the guy but just saying that I expected to see some quality drives from him this year and so far i havent. But yeah its still early and a very small sample. We shall see.

F1 MERCENARY wrote:

mcdo wrote:He's the most successful GP2 driver of all time. That's a good driver. Whether that translates into F1 success remains to be seen

BINGO!!!…

Precisely my point. And to clarify one thing, I think it's quite possible he's still coming to terms with not only his chuck wagon of a car, but also the speed of F1. I realize not every driver is immediately comfortable enough to get up to speed straight away, but the odds are that those whom aren't immediately in the vicinity of the fastest guys, generally fizz out and get replaced. Incredibly, some hold onto a seat for many years while floundering about, placing lower than their equipment is capable of, so who knows. Hopefully Vandoorne figures things out and gets up to speed and proves he is top notch. I'd certainly welcome that scenario.

Ki Jana Carter, Ryan Leaf, Harold ("Baby Jordan" – Ha!… Riiiiiiiight!) Minor, Gino Toretta, Kwame Brown, Jamarcus Russel, Sam Bowie, Shawn Bradley, Tractor Traylor, Tommy Byrne, were all guys who were touted to be top guys int he big leagues but for one reason, or several, they simply fell well short of the mark when competing among top-level pros. So far Vandoorne isn't too far adrift from that from what I've seen, but hoping he's able to turn it around.

F1 MERCENARY wrote:

mcdo wrote:He's the most successful GP2 driver of all time. That's a good driver. Whether that translates into F1 success remains to be seen

BINGO!!!…

Precisely my point. And to clarify one thing, I think it's quite possible he's still coming to terms with not only his chuck wagon of a car, but also the speed of F1. I realize not every driver is immediately comfortable enough to get up to speed straight away, but the odds are that those whom aren't immediately in the vicinity of the fastest guys, generally fizz out and get replaced. Incredibly, some hold onto a seat for many years while floundering about, placing lower than their equipment is capable of, so who knows. Hopefully Vandoorne figures things out and gets up to speed and proves he is top notch. I'd certainly welcome that scenario.

Ki Jana Carter, Ryan Leaf, Harold ("Baby Jordan" – Ha!… Riiiiiiiight!) Minor, Gino Toretta, Kwame Brown, Jamarcus Russel, Sam Bowie, Shawn Bradley, Tractor Traylor, Tommy Byrne, were all guys who were touted to be top guys int he big leagues but for one reason, or several, they simply fell well short of the mark when competing among top-level pros. So far Vandoorne isn't too far adrift from that from what I've seen, but hoping he's able to turn it around.

mcdo wrote:He's the most successful GP2 driver of all time. That's a good driver. Whether that translates into F1 success remains to be seen

nixxxon wrote:

mcdo wrote:He's the most successful GP2 driver of all time. That's a good driver. Whether that translates into F1 success remains to be seen

Definitely.... No.

mds wrote:Bumping this thread again. I think Stoffel had a very good race yesterday, especially the first part. But I feel he got let down HUGELY by his team.
I mean, he's starting with a disadvantage - his PU was performing a lot less than the (upgraded, I take it?) one Alonso had, posting speeds consistently 10km/u lower or more.

But OK, he's on the harder tyre, he starts well, he's ahead of Alonso, he's keeping up with those ahead. Then, after 7 (!!) laps, he gets pitted for supersoft tyres. He then posts very good lap times but then the SC comes out and all those he would have jumped are taking an almost free pit stop - Vandoorne losing out hugely and dropping back down the order. From there on it was pretty much game over.

Now... Why on earth did McLaren pit him after just 7 laps, when doing well on the harder tyre and in an SC-prone race? Why could they not let him out until an SC and give him a free pit stop as well? The only thing I can see it gained them, and I don't want to go the conspiracy route but I really don't see anything else it could remotely be, is get him out of Alonso's way. But if that was the goal, why not just give him the order to let him by and get on with it?
No, they are going the route of extra pit stop in an SC-prone race. Bonkers.

A decent strategy would have meant two cars in the points for McLaren, and some relief for Vandoorne. But they left him hanging and now everybody can go on about how disappointing Vandoorne has been.

A damn shame, this.

mds wrote:Bumping this thread again. I think Stoffel had a very good race yesterday, especially the first part. But I feel he got let down HUGELY by his team.
I mean, he's starting with a disadvantage - his PU was performing a lot less than the (upgraded, I take it?) one Alonso had, posting speeds consistently 10km/u lower or more.

But OK, he's on the harder tyre, he starts well, he's ahead of Alonso, he's keeping up with those ahead. Then, after 7 (!!) laps, he gets pitted for supersoft tyres. He then posts very good lap times but then the SC comes out and all those he would have jumped are taking an almost free pit stop - Vandoorne losing out hugely and dropping back down the order. From there on it was pretty much game over.

Now... Why on earth did McLaren pit him after just 7 laps, when doing well on the harder tyre and in an SC-prone race? Why could they not let him out until an SC and give him a free pit stop as well? The only thing I can see it gained them, and I don't want to go the conspiracy route but I really don't see anything else it could remotely be, is get him out of Alonso's way. But if that was the goal, why not just give him the order to let him by and get on with it?
No, they are going the route of extra pit stop in an SC-prone race. Bonkers.

A decent strategy would have meant two cars in the points for McLaren, and some relief for Vandoorne. But they left him hanging and now everybody can go on about how disappointing Vandoorne has been.

A damn shame, this.

Lotus49 wrote:No idea why they pitted him so early but Alonso didn't race with the upgraded unit so equipment wise they were equal.

Dodgy stop though, when I saw it I thought immediately they were doing it to get Alonso by and couldn't understand why they didn't just either let them race, Alonso nearly got him the lap before anyway but there was another car in the mix, or even just switch them on track if you think Alo is quicker.

I haven't read the race report yet so if there was an issue like Dan had with his brake duct or slow puncture fair enough but it looks dodgy for sure.

mds wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:No idea why they pitted him so early but Alonso didn't race with the upgraded unit so equipment wise they were equal.

Alonso was posting considerably higher top speeds. Going by that I have my doubts whether the PU's were equal.

Lotus49 wrote:

mds wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:No idea why they pitted him so early but Alonso didn't race with the upgraded unit so equipment wise they were equal.

Alonso was posting considerably higher top speeds. Going by that I have my doubts whether the PU's were equal.

Better Tow maybe?. Honestly the ICE update was saved for Austria after Alonso's gearbox let go in FP and they wanted to check for damage from over revs and the only other update they were both running (new MGU-H).

Both ran the new low d/f front and rear wings as well.

mds wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

mds wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:No idea why they pitted him so early but Alonso didn't race with the upgraded unit so equipment wise they were equal.

Alonso was posting considerably higher top speeds. Going by that I have my doubts whether the PU's were equal.

Better Tow maybe?. Honestly the ICE update was saved for Austria after Alonso's gearbox let go in FP and they wanted to check for damage from over revs and the only other update they were both running (new MGU-H).

Both ran the new low d/f front and rear wings as well.

Guess it's possible. Anyhow, he was doing well and his strategy was puzzling, like doing an extra stop or at least a very very early stop in Monaco isn't going to make much sense either...

mds wrote:Again a frustrating result for Vandoorne. He did very well all weekend, he seemed genuinely faster than Alonso today, was definitely going to get points only for his team to throw it away with a pit stop that took far too long. Passing Massa was just not going to happen.

But definitely a positive mood to leave Silverstone.

mds wrote:Again a frustrating result for Vandoorne. He did very well all weekend, he seemed genuinely faster than Alonso today, was definitely going to get points only for his team to throw it away with a pit stop that took far too long. Passing Massa was just not going to happen.

But definitely a positive mood to leave Silverstone.

justbeingmiko wrote:Stoffel is an odd one. All the ingredients are there, but they just aren't translating into on track performance. AI do find myself wondering at the lack of testing for new drivers. There will be a few a generation that can jump into a car and be quick, but others need time to find their zone.

In the Schumacher early years it was not unusual to see Schumi throwing the car off the circuit every Friday as he found the limits of the car and the track. These days, such a luxury would be frowned upon by the pundits and fans, make headlines and probably be disallowed by the team as their cars are abused So the new drivers get no experience in the real car, and have to perform immediately.

The cars of the last few years are not easy to drive or manage and experience seems to account for a lot of ultimate pace. There is the simulator, but all drivers say it doesn't prep you for track, it just gives you system awareness.

Maybe Stoffel is a good case for testing time to be given to drivers with less than 2 years experience...