


Thoughts ? Comments?
Lotus49 wrote:He's averaging around half a second back in qualifying rather than almost a second which is still bad of course but not Palmer level. The McLaren was a particularly tricky car to drive before Spain with the unnatural gearshifting and throttle application and he's apparently braking too late and it's affecting his cornering/exit speed. Alonso excels at driving around issues so I think he'd have made a lot of drivers look bad in these circumstances, just look at 2012 and his pre-Spain form compared to Massa when the car was nicknamed Clifford.
I think you make a very valid point here. Alonso is a master at driving around issues and dragging the car to where it doesn't belong. And these are not very minor issues. They require a fundamental change in the way you drive. Upshifting before the requisite revs to prevent the engine going kaboom is a ridiculous issue to deal with and probably the first of its kind. So let's hope if and when Honda gets it's s h i t together, he is closer to Alonso. McLaren needs him to be good. Otherwise it doesn't reflect well on their young driver program.Lotus49 wrote:The McLaren was a particularly tricky car to drive before Spain with the unnatural gearshifting and throttle application and he's apparently braking too late and it's affecting his cornering/exit speed. Alonso excels at driving around issues so I think he'd have made a lot of drivers look bad in these circumstances.
This is such an insulting term and I'm growing to despise you the more you use itF1 MERCENARY wrote:At that very moment one word popped into my head… Scrub
It is an insulting term, and while I feel it has a legitimate (if still insulting) application in sports, I think it's beyond hasty to apply it to a driver after a single at-fault collision. Calling every driver who isn't the best a scrub is like calling every car that doesn't win the championship a dog; it simply increases the noise ratio of the dialogue.mcdo wrote:This is such an insulting term and I'm growing to despise you the more you use itF1 MERCENARY wrote:At that very moment one word popped into my head… Scrub
Now, that's unless Stoffel Vandoorne has been hanging out the passenger side of his best friend's ride, trying to holler at you. In that case I stand corrected
This. I think he's possibly had one of the toughest baptisms of any driver I can rememberReservoirDog wrote:I'd personally cut him some slack give what a complete fairy cakes show the McLaren car is. It can't be easy to jump into arguably the worst car in the history of motorsport and do anything. Poor boy can't even get any running.
Seriously now? After only 5 races where he completed ONLY 2 of them with 2 DNFs and 1 DNS? The nerve of couch critics today where they expect every rookie to instantly perform like Hamilton did in 2007 like that's the norm and not the exception, while he's driving a dog of a car and against one of the best drivers currently.F1 MERCENARY wrote:Interesting you posted this because I was about to post this very thing in the other thread where MANY people swore he would set the world ablaze going off of how insanely superb he was in the feeder series. In particular Zak Brown's statement that he's as good, if not better than all-time greats which I basically said was preposterous. After the totally AMATEUR cucumber-esk clash with Massa at the Spanish GP (which was CLEARLY 1,000,000% Vandoorne's fault), I literally said this is the guy everyone was talking up? At that very moment one word popped into my head… Scrub.
At the moment it was a bit harsh, but if he continues to do things like that, well, let's just say I hope it was a one-off incident, but Alonso has beaten him more convincingly than any other teammate I can recall.
Vandoorne has been brilliant in many series not just GP2.Laz_T800 wrote:He did look a class apart in GP2 and as such I was expecting a Hamilton like arrival in F1.
I now feel it says more about the quality of GP2 than it did about Vandoorne.
I think it would only be fair to see him given more time and a reliable car before writing him off completely though.
Raikkonen, Piquet, Grosjean, Fissichella...F1 MERCENARY wrote:Interesting you posted this because I was about to post this very thing in the other thread where MANY people swore he would set the world ablaze going off of how insanely superb he was in the feeder series. In particular Zak Brown's statement that he's as good, if not better than all-time greats which I basically said was preposterous. After the totally AMATEUR cucumber-esk clash with Massa at the Spanish GP (which was CLEARLY 1,000,000% Vandoorne's fault), I literally said this is the guy everyone was talking up? At that very moment one word popped into my head… Scrub.
At the moment it was a bit harsh, but if he continues to do things like that, well, let's just say I hope it was a one-off incident, but Alonso has beaten him more convincingly than any other teammate I can recall.
I didn't expect him to come in and match or beat Alonso straight away, but to be close. It's just that in the sessions the car has been running including free practice he has been a long way off Alonso most of the time. Now supposedly he got the seat because he was expected to be an upgrade from Button, but at this point I'm inclined to think he is not!Zoue wrote:This. I think he's possibly had one of the toughest baptisms of any driver I can rememberReservoirDog wrote:I'd personally cut him some slack give what a complete fairy cakes show the McLaren car is. It can't be easy to jump into arguably the worst car in the history of motorsport and do anything. Poor boy can't even get any running.
Tbh I think it's one thing to get up to speed in F1 in a decent car, quite another to have to learn the ropes while fighting a truck. I think this shouldn't be underestimatedbonecrasher wrote:I didn't expect him to come in and match or beat Alonso straight away, but to be close. It's just that in the sessions the car has been running including free practice he has been a long way off Alonso most of the time. Now supposedly he got the seat because he was expected to be an upgrade from Button, but at this point I'm inclined to think he is not!Zoue wrote:This. I think he's possibly had one of the toughest baptisms of any driver I can rememberReservoirDog wrote:I'd personally cut him some slack give what a complete fairy cakes show the McLaren car is. It can't be easy to jump into arguably the worst car in the history of motorsport and do anything. Poor boy can't even get any running.
These dominations happened under Briatore or at Ferrari.mikeyg123 wrote:Raikkonen, Piquet, Grosjean, Fissichella...F1 MERCENARY wrote:Interesting you posted this because I was about to post this very thing in the other thread where MANY people swore he would set the world ablaze going off of how insanely superb he was in the feeder series. In particular Zak Brown's statement that he's as good, if not better than all-time greats which I basically said was preposterous. After the totally AMATEUR cucumber-esk clash with Massa at the Spanish GP (which was CLEARLY 1,000,000% Vandoorne's fault), I literally said this is the guy everyone was talking up? At that very moment one word popped into my head… Scrub.
At the moment it was a bit harsh, but if he continues to do things like that, well, let's just say I hope it was a one-off incident, but Alonso has beaten him more convincingly than any other teammate I can recall.
He's probably run fewer laps in an F1 car through 5 races than drivers like Hamilton and Vettel did before driving even one race.Zoue wrote:This. I think he's possibly had one of the toughest baptisms of any driver I can rememberReservoirDog wrote:I'd personally cut him some slack give what a complete fairy cakes show the McLaren car is. It can't be easy to jump into arguably the worst car in the history of motorsport and do anything. Poor boy can't even get any running.
Both Palmer and Stroll have bigger deficit to their teammate. What does it say about Massa and Hulkenberg? are they mega champions?pokerman wrote:I very much championed Vandoorne to be mega in F1 but I have to say thus far he's been a bit disappointing, I just built him up too much and underestimated just what a colossus Alonso is.
Only thing I'll say in defense of his starts is China apart we've not seen mega starts from Alonso either this year. China was wet so a little different and Alonso got a great one no doubt (6 places I think) but I'm not sure he's gained a place in any other and Massa was right with him in Spain again for example so I'm not sure that McHonda have as good a launch map yet with this new PU as they did last year.Pullrod wrote:Both Palmer and Stroll have bigger deficit to their teammate. What does it say about Massa and Hulkenberg? are they mega champions?pokerman wrote:I very much championed Vandoorne to be mega in F1 but I have to say thus far he's been a bit disappointing, I just built him up too much and underestimated just what a colossus Alonso is.
He is either driving wrongly and can not change his driving style, or he doesn't have the head to be in this business(future champion).
We understand he is driving a very poor car but why he is not doing like Alonso/Verstappen at the start? any crash will be forgiven anyway given the car he is driving.
Both Alonso and Verstappen look mega and are rated accordingly because they go banzai at the start knowing it is their best and only opportunity to gain/overtake cars. Sometimes it backfires(like last race) but at least they are trying.
To never achieve a faster sector than your teammate is really something.. so I sincerely hope the only problem he has is on his head because live timing has shown no speed from him so far and his starts are not better.
No it doesn't mean that either the Hulk or Massa are mega champions because I didn't rate either Palmer or Stroll that highly in the first place.Pullrod wrote:Both Palmer and Stroll have bigger deficit to their teammate. What does it say about Massa and Hulkenberg? are they mega champions?pokerman wrote:I very much championed Vandoorne to be mega in F1 but I have to say thus far he's been a bit disappointing, I just built him up too much and underestimated just what a colossus Alonso is.
He is either driving wrongly and can not change his driving style, or he doesn't have the head to be in this business(future champion).
We understand he is driving a very poor car but why he is not doing like Alonso/Verstappen at the start? any crash will be forgiven anyway given the car he is driving.
Both Alonso and Verstappen look mega and are rated accordingly because they go banzai at the start knowing it is their best and only opportunity to gain/overtake cars. Sometimes it backfires(like last race) but at least they are trying.
To never achieve a faster sector than your teammate is really something.. so I sincerely hope the only problem he has is on his head because live timing has shown no speed from him so far and his starts are not better.
We don't know what the differences between their cars will be, would McLaren entrust their best car to him or to Button? But I agree he needs a good showing.Robot wrote:He better beat Button in qualy.
There hasn't been much difference between the McLaren's since Oz so although there is another upgrade aero wise coming to Monaco I'd bet it'll be for both cars so shouldn't be an issue.Fiki wrote:We don't know what the differences between their cars will be, would McLaren entrust their best car to him or to Button? But I agree he needs a good showing.Robot wrote:He better beat Button in qualy.
Sorry, am I supposed to care how you feel about me? As far as I am aware I have the liberty to use the word Scrub if "I" feel it is warranted.mcdo wrote:This is such an insulting term and I'm growing to despise you the more you use itF1 MERCENARY wrote:At that very moment one word popped into my head… Scrub
Now, that's unless Stoffel Vandoorne has been hanging out the passenger side of his best friend's ride, trying to holler at you. In that case I stand corrected
I understand that the car isn't up to par but I'm basing this via comparison to his teammate, and that includes races and qualifying. All is indicative of his speed compared to his teammate, whom we must remember is not exactly superb in qualifying, yet manages to be considerably faster than the young "phenom". The difference in the races has been even greater, further diminishing my opinion of him. I am hopeful that he comes to be as good as touted, but that is something we can only ever say if and when he shows us something to elicit even a curiously raised brow. Right now all he's done is help show what a beast his teammate is.guardiangr wrote:Seriously now? After only 5 races where he completed ONLY 2 of them with 2 DNFs and 1 DNS? The nerve of couch critics today where they expect every rookie to instantly perform like Hamilton did in 2007 like that's the norm and not the exception, while he's driving a dog of a car and against one of the best drivers currently.F1 MERCENARY wrote:Interesting you posted this because I was about to post this very thing in the other thread where MANY people swore he would set the world ablaze going off of how insanely superb he was in the feeder series. In particular Zak Brown's statement that he's as good, if not better than all-time greats which I basically said was preposterous. After the totally AMATEUR cucumber-esk clash with Massa at the Spanish GP (which was CLEARLY 1,000,000% Vandoorne's fault), I literally said this is the guy everyone was talking up? At that very moment one word popped into my head… Scrub.
At the moment it was a bit harsh, but if he continues to do things like that, well, let's just say I hope it was a one-off incident, but Alonso has beaten him more convincingly than any other teammate I can recall.
Give the new guys some slack, let them race and if 2 years from now are nowhere THEN you can say whatever you want.
I can appreciate this BUT… If a driver is truly so good he's believed to be as good as all-time greats, said driver should be matching his teammate from the get.Zoue wrote:Tbh I think it's one thing to get up to speed in F1 in a decent car, quite another to have to learn the ropes while fighting a truck. I think this shouldn't be underestimatedbonecrasher wrote:I didn't expect him to come in and match or beat Alonso straight away, but to be close. It's just that in the sessions the car has been running including free practice he has been a long way off Alonso most of the time. Now supposedly he got the seat because he was expected to be an upgrade from Button, but at this point I'm inclined to think he is not!Zoue wrote:This. I think he's possibly had one of the toughest baptisms of any driver I can rememberReservoirDog wrote:I'd personally cut him some slack give what a complete fairy cakes show the McLaren car is. It can't be easy to jump into arguably the worst car in the history of motorsport and do anything. Poor boy can't even get any running.
It's fine that he didn't think Massa could catch him when he looked in his mirror, but Massa was ALL THE WAY alongside him and even pulled ahead so I cannot excuse it. It's one thing if Massa was only half way up his side and in his blind spot, but Massa was alongside way before they hit the corner and it's easy to see when a car is immediately alongside with your periphery.Lotus49 wrote:He said he checked his mirror to see where Felipe was at the start of the straight and thought he would never catch him so just wasn't expecting anyone there. Silly mistake of course but looking at the onboards I can forgive it.
I think Stoff was just focused on his braking to be honest and didn't see him, he only gets alongside a fraction before Stoff brakes.F1 MERCENARY wrote:It's fine that he didn't think Massa could catch him when he looked in his mirror, but Massa was ALL THE WAY alongside him and even pulled ahead so I cannot excuse it. It's one thing if Massa was only half way up his side and in his blind spot, but Massa was alongside way before they hit the corner and it's easy to see when a car is immediately alongside with your periphery.Lotus49 wrote:He said he checked his mirror to see where Felipe was at the start of the straight and thought he would never catch him so just wasn't expecting anyone there. Silly mistake of course but looking at the onboards I can forgive it.
All I see is Americans having to go to extremes to make their point. Zak Brown on one extreme end of the scale, your good self on the other. Difference of culture I guessF1 MERCENARY wrote:Sorry, am I supposed to care how you feel about me? As far as I am aware I have the liberty to use the word Scrub if "I" feel it is warranted.mcdo wrote:This is such an insulting term and I'm growing to despise you the more you use itF1 MERCENARY wrote:At that very moment one word popped into my head… Scrub
Now, that's unless Stoffel Vandoorne has been hanging out the passenger side of his best friend's ride, trying to holler at you. In that case I stand corrected
"IF" you guys reference the other thread where Zack Brown talked him up as being as good as some elite ALL-TIME greats, and look at all the commentary in there about how people are inclined to not only believe but agree with such nonsense, Vandoorne's performance thus far deems him a scrub. You don't have to agree with me but you also don't have to chime in to say things from your pedestal.
While I am educated, JUST LIKE Stephen A. Smith, I grew up in the hood and can speak properly whilst interjecting a little reality from my upbringing, which you likely know nothing about and can't relate.
Feel free to search youtube for Stephen A. Smith Kwame Brown and have a listen. Does the fact he calls him a SCRUB so vehemently warrant anyone to despise him because they disagree? I don't think so, and he is entitled to his opinion, of which I happened to agree with.
If you compare this next anointed one to those he was said to be as good as or better, he's performed FAR below those bold projections. I on the other hand stated that it was indeed far too bold a statement to make specifically because he'd never driven a lap in an F1 car and we would only ever be able to comment on his ability once we got to see him turn laps. I've seen too many "Next Best Things" make it to the bigtime in several sports, only to see them fail miserably. I'm not saying Vandoorne wont ever become superb, but right now he is NOWHERE in the vicinity of being as good as Zack Brown stated.
Unless he was in the middle of a very long build up to a sneeze, his take on the clash with Massa is total and utter BS.
"He was “quite surprised” to find Felipe Massa alongside him when he went into Turn 1 in Spain."
http://www.planetf1.com/news/vandoorne- ... a-contact/
Sorry but Massa was not only alongside him for a VERY long way, but was even ahead of him and Vandoorne either deliberately turned in on him or he lacks total spacial awareness, and going based off his entire career, I'm inclined to say it wasn't the latter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMi3sUnR5nw
His penalty at Monaco is rather light in my opinion.
It's a bit ironic to complain about people going to unreasonable extremes in the same sentence you claim that all Americans do it...mcdo wrote:All I see is Americans having to go to extremes to make their point. Zak Brown on one extreme end of the scale, your good self on the other. Difference of culture I guess
Fact of the matter is Stoffel Vandoorne is a good driver. Nothing more, nothing less at this early stage