Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona & on)

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who is faster? Merc or Ferrari?

Poll ended at Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:35 am

Ferrari
44
37%
Mercedes
74
63%
 
Total votes: 118

Zoue
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by Zoue »

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.ph ... gine-chief

Seems like politics rearing their ugly head at Ferrari, as the report claims Sergio M was responsible for him leaving. Strange as the Ferrari engine looks to be going great guns this year

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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by mcdo »

Zoue wrote:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.ph ... gine-chief

Seems like politics rearing their ugly head at Ferrari, as the report claims Sergio M was responsible for him leaving. Strange as the Ferrari engine looks to be going great guns this year
The Ferrari revolving door has been in full swing lately and I thought they'd be a shambles this year. How wrong I was
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Lotus49
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by Lotus49 »

I read on another forum that it could be simply a promotion within the Fiat company so I dunno if it's a bad thing yet. It does seem strange though as the engine has come on leaps and bounds with him so at the very least even if they were delighted with him you'd think you'd want some stability there but who knows.
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by Rockie »

Lotus49 wrote:I read on another forum that it could be simply a promotion within the Fiat company so I dunno if it's a bad thing yet. It does seem strange though as the engine has come on leaps and bounds with him so at the very least even if they were delighted with him you'd think you'd want some stability there but who knows.
Mattia Binotto was the one who overhauled the engine and was promoted after Allison left and he re arranged the engine department so its not a big deal but as it fills column inches they keep pushing it.

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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by ReservoirDog »

Looking pretty even stevens right now. Merc faster on the US and Ferrari faster on the SS tire. Vettel's car really came alive after he slapped on the SS's while Bottas started blistering.

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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by Zoue »

ReservoirDog wrote:Looking pretty even stevens right now. Merc faster on the US and Ferrari faster on the SS tire. Vettel's car really came alive after he slapped on the SS's while Bottas started blistering.
That could be down to the driver. Kimi's US started blistering, too, don't forget

Merc looked faster all weekend

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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by ReservoirDog »

Zoue wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:Looking pretty even stevens right now. Merc faster on the US and Ferrari faster on the SS tire. Vettel's car really came alive after he slapped on the SS's while Bottas started blistering.
That could be down to the driver. Kimi's US started blistering, too, don't forget

Merc looked faster all weekend
Could be. But at least in Ferrari's case we know the SS was much better, Vettel said so after the race. Haven't heard anything from Bottas, so the blistering may be all down to him. But I do agree that if I had to pick one car, I'd certainly pick Merc.

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Lotus49
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by Lotus49 »

The 50bhp Ferrari upgrade was on the optimistic side by the looks of it. Haas ran it this weekend and while a good bump, I read 10-20bhp rather than 50bhp.

Ferrari will run it at Silverstone.
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by Flash2k11 »

Gnat's chuff between them in race pace, though i'd err on the side of Mercedes the last 2 races. In quali, Ferrari certainly seem to have lost ground since someone was quietly told to stop burning oil as fuel.
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KingVoid
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by KingVoid »

How much does 10 or 20 bhp gain in terms of laptime?

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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by KingVoid »

In the first 5 races there was nothing to split the two.

In Monaco Ferrari were clearly better.

In Canada, Baku and Austria Mercedes were clearly better.

Overall Vettel has been the driver of the season IMO.

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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by Rockie »

Lotus49 wrote:The 50bhp Ferrari upgrade was on the optimistic side by the looks of it. Haas ran it this weekend and while a good bump, I read 10-20bhp rather than 50bhp.

Ferrari will run it at Silverstone.
Considering where both Haas cars were running in the race also Grosjean the only car outside Redbull, Ferrari and Mercedes not lapped.

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Lotus49
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by Lotus49 »

KingVoid wrote:How much does 10 or 20 bhp gain in terms of laptime?
Depends on track but Honda claimed 2/3ths from 10-12bhp bump in Baku.
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

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Lotus49
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by Lotus49 »

Rockie wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:The 50bhp Ferrari upgrade was on the optimistic side by the looks of it. Haas ran it this weekend and while a good bump, I read 10-20bhp rather than 50bhp.

Ferrari will run it at Silverstone.
Considering where both Haas cars were running in the race also Grosjean the only car outside Redbull, Ferrari and Mercedes not lapped.
It's a good update yeah, RogGro praised it as well.
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by lamo »

The Mercedes is ahead now, they should have won 5 of the last 6 races - still won 4 - and Ferrari only won in Monaco. Ferrari aren't far behind, but Mercedes have enough of an edge. 5 from 6 is pretty dominant. If Bottas is beating Vettel, that is a sign for me the Mercedes is also ahead.

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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

lamo wrote:The Mercedes is ahead now, they should have won 5 of the last 6 races - still won 4 - and Ferrari only won in Monaco. Ferrari aren't far behind, but Mercedes have enough of an edge. 5 from 6 is pretty dominant. If Bottas is beating Vettel, that is a sign for me the Mercedes is also ahead.
Agreed, since Canada Mercedes have been the best car. If Vettel had kept his head he could have a 35 point lead right now in the championship just before a big engine upgrade which should give them 2-3 tenths.

Still he has to be happy that Hamilton has actually lost points in two weekends where Mercedes were the better car, he just has to hope Ferrari can respond now.

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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by F1_Ernie »

Wasn't much of a gap between Hamilton and Vettel in Baku and didn't Vettel have an old engine. Only 1 second at the line in Austria doesn't really tell me a dominant advantage.
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by F1_Ernie »

lamo wrote:The Mercedes is ahead now, they should have won 5 of the last 6 races - still won 4 - and Ferrari only won in Monaco. Ferrari aren't far behind, but Mercedes have enough of an edge. 5 from 6 is pretty dominant. If Bottas is beating Vettel, that is a sign for me the Mercedes is also ahead.
Nothing between the cars in Russia and in Spain Ferrari was the better race car.
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by lamo »

F1_Ernie wrote:
lamo wrote:The Mercedes is ahead now, they should have won 5 of the last 6 races - still won 4 - and Ferrari only won in Monaco. Ferrari aren't far behind, but Mercedes have enough of an edge. 5 from 6 is pretty dominant. If Bottas is beating Vettel, that is a sign for me the Mercedes is also ahead.
Nothing between the cars in Russia and in Spain Ferrari was the better race car.
Spain and Russia are 5 and 6 races ago now, but you are right they were closer back then. If Bottas is beating Vettel, for me the Mercedes is surely better. Hamilton was just awful in Russia.

Hamilton seemed to have 0.3-0.4 a lap over Vettel for me in Baku, he opened up a 3.7 second lead in the first stint and then again a 2.8 second lead before the head rest issue. Hamilton wasn't quick enough to follow Vettel closely or pass him, but he was quicker.

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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by F1_Ernie »

lamo wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
lamo wrote:The Mercedes is ahead now, they should have won 5 of the last 6 races - still won 4 - and Ferrari only won in Monaco. Ferrari aren't far behind, but Mercedes have enough of an edge. 5 from 6 is pretty dominant. If Bottas is beating Vettel, that is a sign for me the Mercedes is also ahead.
Nothing between the cars in Russia and in Spain Ferrari was the better race car.
Spain and Russia are 5 and 6 races ago now, but you are right they were closer back then. If Bottas is beating Vettel, for me the Mercedes is surely better. Hamilton was just awful in Russia.
In quali if Bottas is beating Vettel I do think the Mercedes is better. It's just I get the impression some people think it's a clear difference between the cars which I don't think is true. It is very close IMO and Vettel could of quite easily won Russia and Austria but it's so hard to overtake each other at the front.

I do think the Mercedes was better in the last 3 races but at the same time it could be argued Vettel was fighting through the pack in Canada, had an old engine in Baku and in Austria it could of been a repeat of Russia were the Merc was better on the US and the Ferrari on the SS.
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by F1_Ernie »

Hamilton does think he was quickest.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hami ... ce-928798/
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by lamo »

Vettel could have easily won today (if he was quick enough) if he could stay within 2 seconds of Bottas and then push like crazy, close it to 1 second and pit to undecut him. Bottas had him covered, Vettel wasn't close when he needed to be to have a chance to win. Bottas managed the important phase of the race. He had an 8 second lead when Vettel pitted.
Last edited by lamo on Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by F1_Ernie »

lamo wrote:Vettel could have easily won today if he could stay within 2 seconds of Bottas and then push like crazy, close it to 1 second and pit to undecut him. Bottas had him covered, Vettel wasn't close when he needed to be to have a chance to win. Bottas managed the important phase of the race. He had an 8 second lead when Vettel pitted.
I don't think it was as simple as that. Why have a bad second stint when every driver was dealing with bad tyres. It was similar to Russia.
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by lamo »

F1_Ernie wrote:
lamo wrote:Vettel could have easily won today if he could stay within 2 seconds of Bottas and then push like crazy, close it to 1 second and pit to undecut him. Bottas had him covered, Vettel wasn't close when he needed to be to have a chance to win. Bottas managed the important phase of the race. He had an 8 second lead when Vettel pitted.
I don't think it was as simple as that. Why have a bad second stint when every driver was dealing with bad tyres. It was similar to Russia.
Maybe Mercedes was better on the US and Ferrari the SS this race. Bottas opened up an 8 second lead, that is a large lead, Vettel could not stay with him. If he could stay within 2 seconds he could attempt an undercut. He was not quick enough.

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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by F1_Ernie »

lamo wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
lamo wrote:Vettel could have easily won today if he could stay within 2 seconds of Bottas and then push like crazy, close it to 1 second and pit to undecut him. Bottas had him covered, Vettel wasn't close when he needed to be to have a chance to win. Bottas managed the important phase of the race. He had an 8 second lead when Vettel pitted.
I don't think it was as simple as that. Why have a bad second stint when every driver was dealing with bad tyres. It was similar to Russia.
Maybe Mercedes was better on the US and Ferrari the SS this race. Bottas opened up an 8 second lead, that is a large lead, Vettel could not stay with him. If he could stay within 2 seconds he could attempt an undercut. He was not quick enough.
But finished 0.6 behind so Vettel must of been quite quick :?
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by lamo »

The race is decided around the pit stop and undercut timing, Vettel just wasn't close then. The Mercedes was fast but a little inconsistent with its tyres today, kind of the story of the season. Bottas does seem to not be able to perform equally on both sets of tyres in race, he hasn't had a race yet where he was quick on both tyres yet.Maybe Mercedes knew he would struggle on that tyre, hence giving him a big fresh tyre advantage over Seb at the end. Adjusted for tyre life, Vettel was indeed much quicker than him at the end of the race. Bottas had 7-8 lap fresher tyres and was still slower.

The tyres were losing about 0.050 a lap at least, he should have been 0.3-0.4 a lap quicker if the cars were equal, so he was he was slow during this phase.

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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by A.J. »

lamo wrote:The race is decided around the pit stop and undercut timing, Vettel just wasn't close then. The Mercedes was fast but a little inconsistent with its tyres today, kind of the story of the season. Bottas does seem to not be able to perform equally on both sets of tyres in race, he hasn't had a race yet where he was quick on both tyres yet.Maybe Mercedes knew he would struggle on that tyre, hence giving him a big fresh tyre advantage over Seb at the end. Adjusted for tyre life, Vettel was indeed much quicker than him at the end of the race. Bottas had 7-8 lap fresher tyres and was still slower.

The tyres were losing about 0.050 a lap at least, he should have been 0.3-0.4 a lap quicker if the cars were equal, so he was he was slow during this phase.
Yes but that's also because Bottas had a large blister on his set of SS - that can be kind of random sometimes, and it massively affected his pace. Not saying nobody else suffered from blisters, but Bottas' pace was severely compromised.

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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by lamo »

A.J. wrote:
lamo wrote:The race is decided around the pit stop and undercut timing, Vettel just wasn't close then. The Mercedes was fast but a little inconsistent with its tyres today, kind of the story of the season. Bottas does seem to not be able to perform equally on both sets of tyres in race, he hasn't had a race yet where he was quick on both tyres yet.Maybe Mercedes knew he would struggle on that tyre, hence giving him a big fresh tyre advantage over Seb at the end. Adjusted for tyre life, Vettel was indeed much quicker than him at the end of the race. Bottas had 7-8 lap fresher tyres and was still slower.

The tyres were losing about 0.050 a lap at least, he should have been 0.3-0.4 a lap quicker if the cars were equal, so he was he was slow during this phase.
Yes but that's also because Bottas had a large blister on his set of SS - that can be kind of random sometimes, and it massively affected his pace. Not saying nobody else suffered from blisters, but Bottas' pace was severely compromised.
I'll have to go through the lap data once its out, it could well have been that. But he never appeared to extend the gap to Vettel once out of the pits, I could be wrong again but that was my impression. He couldn't have had blisters from the first laps.

It seemed the really high track temperature caught everybody out as most cars had bad blisters.

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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by AnRs »

Ferrari a better car but still behind in PU, perhaps even the Red Bull working corners better than the Mercedes in Austria?

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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by F1_Ernie »

lamo wrote:
A.J. wrote:
lamo wrote:The race is decided around the pit stop and undercut timing, Vettel just wasn't close then. The Mercedes was fast but a little inconsistent with its tyres today, kind of the story of the season. Bottas does seem to not be able to perform equally on both sets of tyres in race, he hasn't had a race yet where he was quick on both tyres yet.Maybe Mercedes knew he would struggle on that tyre, hence giving him a big fresh tyre advantage over Seb at the end. Adjusted for tyre life, Vettel was indeed much quicker than him at the end of the race. Bottas had 7-8 lap fresher tyres and was still slower.

The tyres were losing about 0.050 a lap at least, he should have been 0.3-0.4 a lap quicker if the cars were equal, so he was he was slow during this phase.
Yes but that's also because Bottas had a large blister on his set of SS - that can be kind of random sometimes, and it massively affected his pace. Not saying nobody else suffered from blisters, but Bottas' pace was severely compromised.
I'll have to go through the lap data once its out, it could well have been that. But he never appeared to extend the gap to Vettel once out of the pits, I could be wrong again but that was my impression. He couldn't have had blisters from the first laps.

It seemed the really high track temperature caught everybody out as most cars had bad blisters.
Pirelli did say blisters didnt effect the performance, pllus all cars was dealing with blisters in some way.
Apparently Mercedes kept Bottas out long because of Kimi and they asked Bottas to push early in the first stint because of the threat of a penalty.
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by Covalent »

Those tyres make it so damn hard to compare the cars own speed. Especially that last stint who can quantify who was losing how much time due to tyre wear and blisters? Seems to me Mercedes have a car advantage but when you take tyre wear into consideration Ferrari may well be the slightly better race car, although Lewis looked fastest in the closing stages.

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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by mcdo »

lamo wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
lamo wrote:Vettel could have easily won today if he could stay within 2 seconds of Bottas and then push like crazy, close it to 1 second and pit to undecut him. Bottas had him covered, Vettel wasn't close when he needed to be to have a chance to win. Bottas managed the important phase of the race. He had an 8 second lead when Vettel pitted.
I don't think it was as simple as that. Why have a bad second stint when every driver was dealing with bad tyres. It was similar to Russia.
Maybe Mercedes was better on the US and Ferrari the SS this race. Bottas opened up an 8 second lead, that is a large lead, Vettel could not stay with him. If he could stay within 2 seconds he could attempt an undercut. He was not quick enough.
This is what I picked up from the race. The Ferrari might lag in certain race conditions but they're by no means ever out of the running. The races always seem to come back to Vettel
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by KingVoid »

Muh Ferrari race pace :lol:

It's an absolute miracle that Vettel is still leading this WDC. Mercedes have regained 2014-16 levels of dominance.

It's a shame that Mercedes' dominance will probably gift Hamilton this WDC after Vettel outperformed him in roughly equal cars at the start of the season.

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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by A.J. »

It's not even close anymore...the Merc easily has the legs on Ferrari now.

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Post by rivf1 »

A.J. wrote:It's not even close anymore...the Merc easily has the legs on Ferrari now.
Yeah unfortunately it's back to the same borefest as 14/15/16 now

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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by Clarky »

Didn't Ferrari have a big engine upgrade this weekend?

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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by Blackhander »

Equal. Ferrari has slightly better aero and is kinder on tyres (ignore today, Silverstone has its own bizarre tyre eating habits sometimes) Mercedes has a much better engine still. Depends on the track requirements in the end as to who has the advantage each week.
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

All round depressing result today for me. If Mercedes are comfortably faster in Hungary too then I think it's game over. Completely different circuit so hopefully Ferrari can come back at them there.

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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by A.J. »

Clarky wrote:Didn't Ferrari have a big engine upgrade this weekend?
I read some rumours saying it was a 50 bhp upgrade (which I called BS on) - saw it being reported as a 15 bhp upgrade elsewhere, but it generally seemed to make no difference - the Ferrari struggled to even overtake the RedBull on the straight (compared to the ease with which Bottas overtook Vettel).

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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by A.J. »

Blackhander wrote:Equal. Ferrari has slightly better aero and is kinder on tyres (ignore today, Silverstone has its own bizarre tyre eating habits sometimes) Mercedes has a much better engine still. Depends on the track requirements in the end as to who has the advantage each week.
I doubt that the Ferrari is kinder on the tyres - I think it is better at getting them into the operating window, but not kinder on them. Just on evidence of today (I know you want it ignored, but it can't be) - Bottas did a high fuel 33-lap first sting on the softs, and was matching the Ferraris (on new tyres) at the end of his stint before he pitted.

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