Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona & on)

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who is faster? Merc or Ferrari?

Poll ended at Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:35 am

Ferrari
44
37%
Mercedes
74
63%
 
Total votes: 118

Rockie
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by Rockie »

Due to the complex PU, it is faster to replace an entire PU than fixing a part that has gone wrong in one!

Ferrari has not had a component failure yet, so where this taking a penalty comes from baffles me!

ReservoirDog
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by ReservoirDog »

sandman1347 wrote:A couple of things:
1-The Mercedes has an edge at the high speed circuits at the moment like Canada and Baku. Definitely their PU can still crank out the most power but we'll see how much of their edge carries over to the race tomorrow.
2-It's worth keeping an eye on things moving forward. It's also possible that, after the low point in Monaco, Mercedes have actually moved ahead in the arms race overall.
Well Merc did run their factory 24/7 without any weekend breaks after Monaco (many engineers slept in the factory), to get on top of their issues. Kinda like their 2013 tire test, but on simulators.

Looks like, just like in 2013, it has done wonders for them. Looks like pulling out all the stops for a couple of weeks seems to be Merc's thing. Kinda like late season development rush used to be Red Bull's thing.

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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by sandman1347 »

Rockie wrote:Due to the complex PU, it is faster to replace an entire PU than fixing a part that has gone wrong in one!

Ferrari has not had a component failure yet, so where this taking a penalty comes from baffles me!
Isn't Vettel on his fourth turbocharger right now?

lamo

Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by lamo »

sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:Due to the complex PU, it is faster to replace an entire PU than fixing a part that has gone wrong in one!

Ferrari has not had a component failure yet, so where this taking a penalty comes from baffles me!
Isn't Vettel on his fourth turbocharger right now?
Rockie is choosing to believe that this is an intentional rotation of parts and Vettel hasn't had any failures yet and doesn't face any penalties later in the season as it stands.

But Ferrari won't be able to update their Turbo now? His answer, developments are planned else where and the turbo wouldn't necessarily have been upgraded.

But the season still has 6 months to run, if Ferrari are still running these turbos in AD, they will be 7 months out of date (design wise). Ferrari could easily find a good gain in Turbo development in that time and they won't be able to implement it without penalty. It's pretty clear no team closes off development like that intentionally. Ferrari have trouble with the Turbo, it probably doesn't stand a chance to last the required 5 races. They haven't had a turbo do 3 races yet.

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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by sandman1347 »

lamo wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:Due to the complex PU, it is faster to replace an entire PU than fixing a part that has gone wrong in one!

Ferrari has not had a component failure yet, so where this taking a penalty comes from baffles me!
Isn't Vettel on his fourth turbocharger right now?
Rockie is choosing to believe that this is an intentional rotation of parts and Vettel hasn't had any failures yet and doesn't face any penalties later in the season as it stands.

But Ferrari won't be able to update their Turbo now? His answer, developments are planned else where and the turbo wouldn't necessarily have been upgraded.

But the season still has 6 months to run, if Ferrari are still running these turbos in AD, they will be 7 months out of date (design wise). Ferrari could easily find a good gain in Turbo development in that time and they won't be able to implement it without penalty. It's pretty clear no team closes off development like that intentionally. Ferrari have trouble with the Turbo, it probably doesn't stand a chance to last the required 5 races. They haven't had a turbo do 3 races yet.
Ha! That's a stretch. I can't possibly see Ferrari doing this on purpose. Vettel is going to face a penalty at some point this year (possibly more than once). Teh question is; will Hamilton have to face penalties as well?

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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by Rockie »

lamo wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:Due to the complex PU, it is faster to replace an entire PU than fixing a part that has gone wrong in one!

Ferrari has not had a component failure yet, so where this taking a penalty comes from baffles me!
Isn't Vettel on his fourth turbocharger right now?
Rockie is choosing to believe that this is an intentional rotation of parts and Vettel hasn't had any failures yet and doesn't face any penalties later in the season as it stands.

But Ferrari won't be able to update their Turbo now? His answer, developments are planned else where and the turbo wouldn't necessarily have been upgraded.

But the season still has 6 months to run, if Ferrari are still running these turbos in AD, they will be 7 months out of date (design wise). Ferrari could easily find a good gain in Turbo development in that time and they won't be able to implement it without penalty. It's pretty clear no team closes off development like that intentionally. Ferrari have trouble with the Turbo, it probably doesn't stand a chance to last the required 5 races. They haven't had a turbo do 3 races yet.
You can point me towards where Ferrari have had a failure or has less components than Mercedes drivers!

They can have the turbo upgraded via reliabity fixes which they have done already but you can keep on with hoping for a Vettel DNF lol!

lamo

Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by lamo »

I have heard this that they were able to repair existing turbos, so they did have a problem with turbos then?

Does anybody have a link to this, I have never heard of a team being able to repair/fix an engine component that they had used.

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mds
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by mds »

Rockie wrote:
lamo wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:Due to the complex PU, it is faster to replace an entire PU than fixing a part that has gone wrong in one!

Ferrari has not had a component failure yet, so where this taking a penalty comes from baffles me!
Isn't Vettel on his fourth turbocharger right now?
Rockie is choosing to believe that this is an intentional rotation of parts and Vettel hasn't had any failures yet and doesn't face any penalties later in the season as it stands.

But Ferrari won't be able to update their Turbo now? His answer, developments are planned else where and the turbo wouldn't necessarily have been upgraded.

But the season still has 6 months to run, if Ferrari are still running these turbos in AD, they will be 7 months out of date (design wise). Ferrari could easily find a good gain in Turbo development in that time and they won't be able to implement it without penalty. It's pretty clear no team closes off development like that intentionally. Ferrari have trouble with the Turbo, it probably doesn't stand a chance to last the required 5 races. They haven't had a turbo do 3 races yet.
You can point me towards where Ferrari have had a failure or has less components than Mercedes drivers!

They can have the turbo upgraded via reliabity fixes which they have done already but you can keep on with hoping for a Vettel DNF lol!
They cannot upgrade the turbo to a higher performing spec, he will have to take a penalty for that.

How is this hard to understand?
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by Mercedes-Benz »

It depends on track. Monaco obviously Ferrari had an easy 1-2. In Canada MB was cruising. Baku is another track which suits MB. It also seems they have improved tyre warming issue. So I think they will be strong on every race now. Hungary and Singapore probably will be their weakest tracks.Though in races usually it is closer. If today MB cruises to another 1-2 then these are alarm sign for Ferrari.
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Rockie
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by Rockie »

mds wrote:
Rockie wrote:
lamo wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:Due to the complex PU, it is faster to replace an entire PU than fixing a part that has gone wrong in one!

Ferrari has not had a component failure yet, so where this taking a penalty comes from baffles me!
Isn't Vettel on his fourth turbocharger right now?
Rockie is choosing to believe that this is an intentional rotation of parts and Vettel hasn't had any failures yet and doesn't face any penalties later in the season as it stands.

But Ferrari won't be able to update their Turbo now? His answer, developments are planned else where and the turbo wouldn't necessarily have been upgraded.

But the season still has 6 months to run, if Ferrari are still running these turbos in AD, they will be 7 months out of date (design wise). Ferrari could easily find a good gain in Turbo development in that time and they won't be able to implement it without penalty. It's pretty clear no team closes off development like that intentionally. Ferrari have trouble with the Turbo, it probably doesn't stand a chance to last the required 5 races. They haven't had a turbo do 3 races yet.
You can point me towards where Ferrari have had a failure or has less components than Mercedes drivers!

They can have the turbo upgraded via reliabity fixes which they have done already but you can keep on with hoping for a Vettel DNF lol!
They cannot upgrade the turbo to a higher performing spec, he will have to take a penalty for that.

How is this hard to understand?
Since you know more than Binotto its ok then!

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Lotus49
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by Lotus49 »

The story about backdated fixes for the turbo was taken down, it's not true but they did come up with a fix but it is for future Turbo's which in of itself tells you it hasn't been some sort of master plan to rotate because no upgrades were planned.

There was evidently an issue with Turbo wear and it's very likely he'll have a penalty at some point but everything else looks good.
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

lamo

Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by lamo »

Thanks for that Lotus, I have heard a few people reference that they repaired old turbos and it went against everything I understood of the rules.

dompclarke

Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by dompclarke »

Rockie wrote:
lamo wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:Due to the complex PU, it is faster to replace an entire PU than fixing a part that has gone wrong in one!

Ferrari has not had a component failure yet, so where this taking a penalty comes from baffles me!
Isn't Vettel on his fourth turbocharger right now?
Rockie is choosing to believe that this is an intentional rotation of parts and Vettel hasn't had any failures yet and doesn't face any penalties later in the season as it stands.

But Ferrari won't be able to update their Turbo now? His answer, developments are planned else where and the turbo wouldn't necessarily have been upgraded.

But the season still has 6 months to run, if Ferrari are still running these turbos in AD, they will be 7 months out of date (design wise). Ferrari could easily find a good gain in Turbo development in that time and they won't be able to implement it without penalty. It's pretty clear no team closes off development like that intentionally. Ferrari have trouble with the Turbo, it probably doesn't stand a chance to last the required 5 races. They haven't had a turbo do 3 races yet.
You can point me towards where Ferrari have had a failure or has less components than Mercedes drivers!

They can have the turbo upgraded via reliabity fixes which they have done already but you can keep on with hoping for a Vettel DNF lol!
The upgrade via reliability fixes was a way round the token system, not the limits on components. I believe they would be able to check components with via supervision of any seals are broken, but not repair them; if replaced this could not be an extra item due to reliability but a new component either of of any allocation left or meaning penalties if they have got through the allowed number.

If they could use what they like for reliability reasons they'd increase performance and replace them every race.... Also if they could do this Honda wouldn't have penalties this weekend!

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Lotus49
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by Lotus49 »

lamo wrote:Thanks for that Lotus, I have heard a few people reference that they repaired old turbos and it went against everything I understood of the rules.
Yeah my bad, I think that's my fault as I saw that story in the Ferrari thread on AS and wrote about it here but the article was already a dead link so I should have waited for confirmation but the poster is 99.9% of the time bang on usually so I relayed it here.

It did sound a bit generous that the FIA would allow backdated reliability fixes, you could just restore every component to new that way.

Lesson learned. :blush:
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

F1_Ernie
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by F1_Ernie »

Ferrari bringing new engine update to Silverstone.

https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2017/06/ ... eed-track/

Apparently the new ICE will be a gain of 50hp.
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by Exediron »

F1_Ernie wrote:Ferrari bringing new engine update to Silverstone.

https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2017/06/ ... eed-track/

Apparently the new ICE will be a gain of 50hp.
Wow, that's a lot! If Mercedes don't have a similar upgrade, that should be enough to put Ferrari on top in terms of the power game. It'll be interesting to see how they do, especially with Silverstone being an aero track in addition to a power track - if Ferrari indeed has the better aero as some think, that should play into their hands nicely.
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by lamo »

50 bhp, that is huge, that could swing it all back to Ferrari but Mercedes won't be standing still and as far as I am aware the second engines their drivers took had only reliability updates on it. So performance wise, Mercedes are in theory running the same specification as Australia. Surely Engine 3 will have a performance update? That is 4-5 months of development time since the engines that went to Australia were signed off.
Assuming this is also around Silverstone time too, race 10 of 20, the logical time to take engine 3 if each PU is doing 5 races.

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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by F1_Ernie »

lamo wrote:50 bhp, that is huge, that could swing it all back to Ferrari but Mercedes won't be standing still and as far as I am aware the second engines their drivers took had only reliability updates on it. So performance wise, Mercedes are in theory running the same specification as Australia. Surely Engine 3 will have a performance update? That is 4-5 months of development time since the engines that went to Australia were signed off.
Assuming this is also around Silverstone time too, race 10 of 20, the logical time to take engine 3 if each PU is doing 5 races.
https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/ferra ... ra-924343/

- ICE3 will introduce new type pistons, a more robust steel alloy design

- TJI improvements (Mahle)

- New fuel (Shell)

Ferrari is expecting to gain 50 HP

I think it's 50hp from ICE 1 - ICE 3.
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by lamo »

Did the 2nd PU have a performance update for Ferrari? I know they are a bit disjointed as they have had to swap turbos around, but most of the other components are on 2nd items aren't they?

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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by Migen »

F1_Ernie wrote:Ferrari bringing new engine update to Silverstone.

https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2017/06/ ... eed-track/

Apparently the new ICE will be a gain of 50hp.
50hp for an improved ICE sound reasonable and achievable... but I cant see that 50hp gain estimate mentioned in the article above.
Do you have any other source that mentions it?

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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by F1_Ernie »

Migen wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:Ferrari bringing new engine update to Silverstone.

https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2017/06/ ... eed-track/

Apparently the new ICE will be a gain of 50hp.
50hp for an improved ICE sound reasonable and achievable... but I cant see that 50hp gain estimate mentioned in the article above.
Do you have any other source that mentions it?
Here's another one buts it's Italian if you don't mind translating it.

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/ferra ... ra-924343/
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2017: 4th place
2018: 12th place

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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by Migen »

F1_Ernie wrote:
Migen wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:Ferrari bringing new engine update to Silverstone.

https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2017/06/ ... eed-track/

Apparently the new ICE will be a gain of 50hp.
50hp for an improved ICE sound reasonable and achievable... but I cant see that 50hp gain estimate mentioned in the article above.
Do you have any other source that mentions it?
Here's another one buts it's Italian if you don't mind translating it.

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/ferra ... ra-924343/
My Italian has gone rusty, I used to speak it perfectly some 17 years ago, I can still understand it though.
Yes, this article mentions the 50hp gains.

Interestingly, the article says that "the full second that Mercedes had over Ferrari behind in Baku qualies, was achieved with the Mercedes engine using an over-boost set at level 8 of 10 allowed".

Those 50hp will help Ferrari catch Mercedes (if Mercedes stands still on engine development) on race trim, but on qually mode, Mercedes should still reign over the power tracks.

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Lotus49
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by Lotus49 »

Migen wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Migen wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:Ferrari bringing new engine update to Silverstone.

https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2017/06/ ... eed-track/

Apparently the new ICE will be a gain of 50hp.
50hp for an improved ICE sound reasonable and achievable... but I cant see that 50hp gain estimate mentioned in the article above.
Do you have any other source that mentions it?
Here's another one buts it's Italian if you don't mind translating it.

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/ferra ... ra-924343/
My Italian has gone rusty, I used to speak it perfectly some 17 years ago, I can still understand it though.
Yes, this article mentions the 50hp gains.

Interestingly, the article says that "the full second that Mercedes had over Ferrari behind in Baku qualies, was achieved with the Mercedes engine using an over-boost set at level 8 of 10 allowed".

Those 50hp will help Ferrari catch Mercedes (if Mercedes stands still on engine development) on race trim, but on qually mode, Mercedes should still reign over the power tracks.
The current gap between Mercedes and Ferrari was said to be less than 15 at season start and now AMuS are claiming Ferrari had slightly more peak power even so a jump of 50 would put Ferrari further ahead of Mercedes than what those two currently are of Renault and practically half way between Renault and Honda as a rule of thumb.

Not only would it be season over and Ferrari domination on 2015 scale but McLaren moving to Mercedes would be the single biggest waste of time in F1 history as they'd be all of 20bhp better off to the leading unit than they currently are incredibly.

For reference the ICE 1 in Seb's car that had over 4000km on it was only 2ths shy in S3 of Lewis in Baku in quali. This update would be on top of the ICE 2 upgrade in Spain that gave them quicker S1 in Spain and quicker S3 in Canada over Mercedes.

It would be game over if they get anything close to 50bhp, That would lead to an advantage for Ferrari similar to the gap Mercedes had over Ferrari in 2015 and it would also be the biggest in season upgrade of the regulations.

For the sake of the season,McLaren,Honda,Renault and the internet I hope it's BS. :lol:
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by lamo »

How much have Mercedes engine upgrade regularly brought? 15-20 BHP? This must be a big one since the PU has had no upgrades since the engine used for Australia. If Ferrari bring 50 BHP, I would be surprised if Mercedes at least don't bring half of that.

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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by Lotus49 »

lamo wrote:How much have Mercedes engine upgrade regularly brought? 15-20 BHP? This must be a big one since the PU has had no upgrades since the engine used for Australia. If Ferrari bring 50 BHP, I would be surprised if Mercedes at least don't bring half of that.
They could of course but there's no guarantees their concept isn't reaching it's ceiling or Petronas aren't reaching theirs. Ferrari's is a different concept with a different layout which might give more room for growth, Shell could be surpassing Petronas and most importantly Ferrari have Mahle to develop their combustion concept while Mercedes are on their own.

Complacency or unwillingness to push the envelope or change things on such a dominating concept can also slow development in areas.
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by A.J. »

Lotus49 wrote:
lamo wrote:How much have Mercedes engine upgrade regularly brought? 15-20 BHP? This must be a big one since the PU has had no upgrades since the engine used for Australia. If Ferrari bring 50 BHP, I would be surprised if Mercedes at least don't bring half of that.
They could of course but there's no guarantees their concept isn't reaching it's ceiling or Petronas aren't reaching theirs. Ferrari's is a different concept with a different layout which might give more room for growth, Shell could be surpassing Petronas and most importantly Ferrari have Mahle to develop their combustion concept while Mercedes are on their own.

Complacency or unwillingness to push the envelope or change things on such a dominating concept can also slow development in areas.
I'm highly skeptical of the 50bhp claim - or the one which says the Ferrari engine makes more peak power than the Merc today.

You just have to compare S3 in Baku (against Kimi since Vettel was running an older unit) to see the difference - even the Force Indias/Williams were regularly faster than the Ferraris down that monster straight, and I wouldn't be surprised if RBR weren't too far behind either.

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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by Lotus49 »

A.J. wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
lamo wrote:How much have Mercedes engine upgrade regularly brought? 15-20 BHP? This must be a big one since the PU has had no upgrades since the engine used for Australia. If Ferrari bring 50 BHP, I would be surprised if Mercedes at least don't bring half of that.
They could of course but there's no guarantees their concept isn't reaching it's ceiling or Petronas aren't reaching theirs. Ferrari's is a different concept with a different layout which might give more room for growth, Shell could be surpassing Petronas and most importantly Ferrari have Mahle to develop their combustion concept while Mercedes are on their own.

Complacency or unwillingness to push the envelope or change things on such a dominating concept can also slow development in areas.
I'm highly skeptical of the 50bhp claim - or the one which says the Ferrari engine makes more peak power than the Merc today.

You just have to compare S3 in Baku (against Kimi since Vettel was running an older unit) to see the difference - even the Force Indias/Williams were regularly faster than the Ferraris down that monster straight, and I wouldn't be surprised if RBR weren't too far behind either.
Kimi's best was only 0.150 behind Lewis in S3.

Image
http://i.imgur.com/fXnLKyml.jpg
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by Zoue »

Lotus49 wrote:
A.J. wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
lamo wrote:How much have Mercedes engine upgrade regularly brought? 15-20 BHP? This must be a big one since the PU has had no upgrades since the engine used for Australia. If Ferrari bring 50 BHP, I would be surprised if Mercedes at least don't bring half of that.
They could of course but there's no guarantees their concept isn't reaching it's ceiling or Petronas aren't reaching theirs. Ferrari's is a different concept with a different layout which might give more room for growth, Shell could be surpassing Petronas and most importantly Ferrari have Mahle to develop their combustion concept while Mercedes are on their own.

Complacency or unwillingness to push the envelope or change things on such a dominating concept can also slow development in areas.
I'm highly skeptical of the 50bhp claim - or the one which says the Ferrari engine makes more peak power than the Merc today.

You just have to compare S3 in Baku (against Kimi since Vettel was running an older unit) to see the difference - even the Force Indias/Williams were regularly faster than the Ferraris down that monster straight, and I wouldn't be surprised if RBR weren't too far behind either.
Kimi's best was only 0.150 behind Lewis in S3.

Image
http://i.imgur.com/fXnLKyml.jpg
I'm inclined to think that's tow-related. Kimi's best race sector time was almost identical to his qualifying one, when we know they have the engines turned up. None of the other front runners were as close to their qualifying times. Lewis was a tenth quicker in qualifying and we know he had a tow behind Vettel at one point. Vettel was two tenths slower than qualifying; Bottas a tenth. Looking at the rest of sectors Kimi is well down on his qualifying time, so I don't think it's PU related

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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by Lotus49 »

It could be yeah, and also we don't know drag levels either but that goes both ways of course and even the quali gap was only a tenth more so about 0.250 and Ferrari were struggling with their tyres so I don't think there's a great deal in it going by the power sectors in recent GP's.
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by lamo »

Does anybody know the difference in power of the Mercedes and Honda engine at the moment? To put that 50 BHP into context?

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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by Lotus49 »

lamo wrote:Does anybody know the difference in power of the Mercedes and Honda engine at the moment? To put that 50 BHP into context?
Matt Morris was quoted recently putting the gap at about 70bhp.
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

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Lotus49
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by Lotus49 »

The biggest in season update quoted I recall was 40bhp for a fuel and fuel system re-design on the Ferrari in 2014.

Mercedes winter gains were said to be 60 in 2014/15, 50 in 15/16 and 20 in 16/17 for more context.

A 50bhp gain, in season and at this stage of development would be incredible and certainly put the Ferrari clearly on top by at least 35bhp if we take the more conservative 15bhp gap quoted that separates Merc and Ferrari currently.

Renault are currently thought to be about 35 in Q but 25-30 in race trim to add more context to what a 50bhp jump would do and a 35bhp lead for Ferrari would look like.

The Honda would be just depressingly back to being over 100bhp behind and to be frank they may as well go home if the big two are still finding gains like that at this stage.
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

lamo

Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by lamo »

Lotus49 wrote:
lamo wrote:Does anybody know the difference in power of the Mercedes and Honda engine at the moment? To put that 50 BHP into context?
Matt Morris was quoted recently putting the gap at about 70bhp.
It seems like it would be more or is the lack of ERS power what also causes them to be slow?

At times they have been 3 seconds behind. Lets say 2 second is PU related, I feel 70 bhp deficient would be less than 2 seconds per lap. If they were 70 BHP down and losing 2 seconds per lap due to just BHP, that would be 0.285 seconds per lap per 10 BHP.

So in combination to the lack of power are Honda still struggling to charge and discharge the full power of the ERS each lap like they used too? Or driveability problems?
Last edited by lamo on Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

kleefton
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by kleefton »

A.J. wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
lamo wrote:How much have Mercedes engine upgrade regularly brought? 15-20 BHP? This must be a big one since the PU has had no upgrades since the engine used for Australia. If Ferrari bring 50 BHP, I would be surprised if Mercedes at least don't bring half of that.
They could of course but there's no guarantees their concept isn't reaching it's ceiling or Petronas aren't reaching theirs. Ferrari's is a different concept with a different layout which might give more room for growth, Shell could be surpassing Petronas and most importantly Ferrari have Mahle to develop their combustion concept while Mercedes are on their own.

Complacency or unwillingness to push the envelope or change things on such a dominating concept can also slow development in areas.
I'm highly skeptical of the 50bhp claim - or the one which says the Ferrari engine makes more peak power than the Merc today.

You just have to compare S3 in Baku (against Kimi since Vettel was running an older unit) to see the difference - even the Force Indias/Williams were regularly faster than the Ferraris down that monster straight, and I wouldn't be surprised if RBR weren't too far behind either.
We'll have to wait and see regarding the 50hp gain claim, but I still think Ferrari is trying to catch up with Merc.


You don't come second in Canada and Baku if you were ahead in power. Almost impossible to do.
The Haas car was nowhere close to the Merc customer teams either at those 2 tracks. To me Merc is still ahead in power, for sure.

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Lotus49
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by Lotus49 »

lamo wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
lamo wrote:Does anybody know the difference in power of the Mercedes and Honda engine at the moment? To put that 50 BHP into context?
Matt Morris was quoted recently putting the gap at about 70bhp.
It seems like it would be more or is the lack of ERS power what also causes them to be slow?

At times they have been 3 seconds behind. Lets say 2 second is PU related, I feel 70 bhp deficient would be less than 2 seconds per lap. If they were 70 BHP down and losing 2 seconds per lap due to just BHP, that would be 0.285 seconds per lap per 10 BHP.

So in combination to the lack of power are Honda still struggling to charge and discharge the full power of the ERS each lap like they used too? Or driveability problems?
ERS could play a role, the whole thing is inefficient at the moment but driveability is said to be ok now. That's a peak power figure so the area under the curve might be worse, they still do more fuel saving than the others too. Until their combustion concept works it's hard to judge their ERS because increased efficiency in combustion initially harms ERS performance.

Your back of a fag packet calcs actually match what Honda claimed in Baku. 2/3ths for a 10-12bhp bump.
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

lamo

Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by lamo »

Thanks for you summary above regarding updates and power, very interesting. I never realised 10 BHP could be worth so much. So 35 BHP you are looking at a second per lap at some tracks. I can see why you have said if the 50 BHP figure is true, it is a huge swing.

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Lotus49
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by Lotus49 »

lamo wrote:Thanks for you summary above regarding updates and power, very interesting. I never realised 10 BHP could be worth so much. So 35 BHP you are looking at a second per lap at some tracks. I can see why you have said if the 50 BHP figure is true, it is a huge swing.
Yeah it's massive. 35bhp is roughly the deficit Renault were in qualifying pre Baku, they had a good bump from a Software update there but no figures were leaked or reported that I saw anyway so I don't know the current estimates after Baku.

You can see some of the gaps Red Bull had with that shortfall, it's a game changer for the championship even if Ferrari trail right now by 20-25 which is very unlikely rather than the 15 conservative or marginally ahead AMuS claimed. Without a Mercedes reply you'd be looking at anything from 25-50 lead in HP all of a sudden. Crazy stuff.

We were on the right lines when we were talking about the ICE situation at Ferrari in those other threads around Spain and Baku and it looking like the unwillingness to give Seb a new unit from the allocation was because of a big big update on the horizon. :thumbup:

We'll soon see if they get close to 50bhp from the update anyway, it's not something that can fly under the radar.
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

lamo

Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by lamo »

Hmmm, maybe he should get a race ban for Baku after all ;)

ReservoirDog
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by ReservoirDog »

That 50hp number sounds like hogwash to me.

shoot999
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by shoot999 »

new Mercedes updates live! :)


https://www.facebook.com/?ref=tn_tnmn

Edit: Bah! Humbug! It's finished. They were firing up the 1937 W125.

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