2017 Spanish Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

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lamo

Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by lamo »

We can easily have overtaking due to the difference in tyres. Sochi we had 0.2 between compounds, here he have 2-3 seconds. If you are on old mediums and somebody is on new softs, they will be 3.5-4 seconds a lap quicker. It depends on how much the softs degrade, but it could be a 3 stopper. Somebody starting on mediums could have a really good result here, if there is a SC.

Zoue
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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Zoue »

Mercedes' upgrades certainly haven't made them any worse. Hamilton and Bottas look fairly evenly matched but they appear comfortably ahead of Ferrari. Anyone have any details on long run pace?

lamo

Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by lamo »

IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:I think Ferrari is trying to increase their tyre life even more than normal. Even if they qualify behind Mercedes, and stay in touch in the race, they know they can't pass on this track. As Mercedes pit for the last time, the Ferraris will go really long, as the difference between tyres here is 2 seconds a lap. They will do only a handful of laps on the slower tyre, and hopefully gain a lot over Mercedes, and come out ahead after making their last stop.
If there is an over cut, Mercedes just won't pit. Also a brand new medium vs 20-25 lap old soft won't be 2 seconds per lap quicker. It will probably be as low as a couple of tenths or even the medium would be quicker. I would bet the new mediums would be quicker, if at least for the first couple of laps. Spain is high degradation and the tyres are getting slower every lap although this isn't always obvious because fuel burns off and the cars set relatively consistent pace but by the end of the stint the car has 25-35kg less fuel than the start so the tyres have lost a couple of seconds.
.

Zoue
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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Zoue »

lamo wrote:
IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:I think Ferrari is trying to increase their tyre life even more than normal. Even if they qualify behind Mercedes, and stay in touch in the race, they know they can't pass on this track. As Mercedes pit for the last time, the Ferraris will go really long, as the difference between tyres here is 2 seconds a lap. They will do only a handful of laps on the slower tyre, and hopefully gain a lot over Mercedes, and come out ahead after making their last stop.
If there is an over cut, Mercedes just won't pit. Also a brand new medium vs 20-25 lap old soft won't be 2 seconds per lap quicker. It will probably be as low as a couple of tenths or even the medium would be quicker. I would bet the new mediums would be quicker, if at least for the first couple of laps. Spain is high degradation and the tyres are getting slower every lap although this isn't always obvious because fuel burns off and the cars set relatively consistent pace but by the end of the stint the car has 25-35kg less fuel than the start so the tyres have lost a couple of seconds.
.
Looking at the SKY blog it seems both Ferraris weren't especially kind to their tyres today and the Mercs weren't too bad. I'm fearing a Merc 1-2 tomorrow as their car looks too strong

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UnlikeUday
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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by UnlikeUday »

The Renault (team) updates have worked well even. Hulk put a great lap there. If only their race pace gets better.
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lamo

Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by lamo »

I feel Mercedes have a little in hand too. That would be quite the turn around if Mercedes can dominate here but they have thrown so much at the car its a failure for them to not get 0.5 a lap with such a huge upgrade. 0.250 in both aero and engine. If you broke that down it would be something like 0.050 per aero tweak and each engine component upgrade plus the weight they have lost too. Maybe they will be more unreliable though.

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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

Long run pace will be more revealing that outright best times IMO. Renault only 4 tenths off Ferrari and only 1 tenth off Red Bull? No chance. The top teams haven't gone all out yet, that's a lot harder to hide in long run pace though.

BlackMan
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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by BlackMan »

How are the S3 times from Mercedes and Ferrari? Anyone who knows keen to share?

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Alex53
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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Alex53 »

Alonso on radio:

"The engine feels good. Much slower than before. Amazing."

No way he's staying at this team.

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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by mcdo »

Zoue wrote:Mercedes' upgrades certainly haven't made them any worse. Hamilton and Bottas look fairly evenly matched but they appear comfortably ahead of Ferrari. Anyone have any details on long run pace?
Merc still ahead. I can't remember exact figures but Bottas had the best average with Lewis a few tenths back. Kimi was only about 2 tenths off Lewis on average and Seb something like 4 tenths further back

That's what I recall from Sky commentary anyway
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lamo

Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by lamo »

Kimi seems to be on top of Vettel this weekend? Out qualified him by 0.2 here last seasons too and beat him in the race (although partly due to split strategies if I recall). Is this a weaker Vettel track? I can remember Webber out qualifying him here a couple of times too.

Just looked it up and Vettel has been out qualified here by Webber x2, Kimi, Bourdais and Ricciardo. Not his strongest track it seems. Possibly his weakest? 4-4 with head to head finishes in races too.

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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by SmoothRide »

Zoue wrote:Mercedes' upgrades certainly haven't made them any worse. Hamilton and Bottas look fairly evenly matched but they appear comfortably ahead of Ferrari. Anyone have any details on long run pace?

FIA lap data is available here:
http://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula-o ... rmation-21

It looks like FP1 was all over the place and hardly any long runs have been made, but Mercs seem to have crushing pace based on FP2. They can set routine 1:26s laps while everyone else is 1-3 seconds slower. Of course fuel loads are unknown, but it looks like it might be an easy weekend for Mercedes.

Warheart01

Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Warheart01 »

Hoping for a Hamilton pole and win. :nod:

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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Zoue »

mcdo wrote:
Zoue wrote:Mercedes' upgrades certainly haven't made them any worse. Hamilton and Bottas look fairly evenly matched but they appear comfortably ahead of Ferrari. Anyone have any details on long run pace?
Merc still ahead. I can't remember exact figures but Bottas had the best average with Lewis a few tenths back. Kimi was only about 2 tenths off Lewis on average and Seb something like 4 tenths further back

That's what I recall from Sky commentary anyway
Ok, thanks. Looking like Mercedes' race to lose, then

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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Zoue »

Warheart01 wrote:Hoping for a Hamilton pole and win. :nod:
Sadly, I think you may get your wish.

Sadly, because it's looking like pre-2017 déjà vu at this track at least judging by running so far

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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Zoue wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:Hoping for a Hamilton pole and win. :nod:
Sadly, I think you may get your wish.

Sadly, because it's looking like pre-2017 déjà vu at this track at least judging by running so far
Have we really seen anything to indicate that level of dominance?

lamo

Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by lamo »

Zoue wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:Hoping for a Hamilton pole and win. :nod:
Sadly, I think you may get your wish.

Sadly, because it's looking like pre-2017 déjà vu at this track at least judging by running so far
Judging by the Mercedes pace, anything less for Hamilton would be a disaster really. Even if he wins without pole, it would mean Bottas has out qualified him 3 races consecutively and be on top for 1 lap pace after his initial settling in and mean Lewis is in for a season long battle with him as track position is king at Mercedes as we all know.

I guess its more important to finish ahead of Bottas (to make it 4 out of 5 races) to stamp some authority in the team but without the pole its not a true bounce back for me. This is of course if the Mercedes is well ahead of everybody else here.

Its crunch time in the title race, Hamilton needs to finish ahead of Bottas in the next 2 races and not get involved in a title fight with Bottas as well as Vettel. In fact I would probably extend that to 3 races, Spain, Monaco and Canada as Monaco and Canada should be strong tracks for Lewis vs Bottas.

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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Zoue »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:Hoping for a Hamilton pole and win. :nod:
Sadly, I think you may get your wish.

Sadly, because it's looking like pre-2017 déjà vu at this track at least judging by running so far
Have we really seen anything to indicate that level of dominance?
I think the Merc's look pretty dominant so far, yes

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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Zoue »

lamo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:Hoping for a Hamilton pole and win. :nod:
Sadly, I think you may get your wish.

Sadly, because it's looking like pre-2017 déjà vu at this track at least judging by running so far
Judging by the Mercedes pace, anything less for Hamilton would be a disaster really. Even if he wins without pole, it would mean Bottas has out qualified him 3 races consecutively and be on top for 1 lap pace after his initial settling in and mean Lewis is in for a season long battle with him as track position is king at Mercedes as we all know.

I guess its more important to finish ahead of Bottas (to make it 4 out of 5 races) to stamp some authority in the team but without the pole its not a true bounce back for me. This is of course if the Mercedes is well ahead of everybody else here.

Its crunch time in the title race, Hamilton needs to finish ahead of Bottas in the next 2 races and not get involved in a title fight with Bottas as well as Vettel. In fact I would probably extend that to 3 races, Spain, Monaco and Canada as Monaco and Canada should be strong tracks for Lewis vs Bottas.
It's early days but I'd say their lighter car has paid dividends, not only in direct time gained by weight savings but in a better car through proper weight distribution through the use of ballast, which they weren't able to do until now. So it certainly looks as though Mercedes have the upper hand and with that in mind I'd agree that Lewis needs to stamp his authority​ as who knows how long it may last?

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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:Hoping for a Hamilton pole and win. :nod:
Sadly, I think you may get your wish.

Sadly, because it's looking like pre-2017 déjà vu at this track at least judging by running so far
Have we really seen anything to indicate that level of dominance?
I think the Merc's look pretty dominant so far, yes
2014-2016 levels?

Whats the tariff for dominance anyway?

When does just plain old faster become "dominant"?

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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Zoue »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:Hoping for a Hamilton pole and win. :nod:
Sadly, I think you may get your wish.

Sadly, because it's looking like pre-2017 déjà vu at this track at least judging by running so far
Have we really seen anything to indicate that level of dominance?
I think the Merc's look pretty dominant so far, yes
2014-2016 levels?

Whats the tariff for dominance anyway?

When does just plain old faster become "dominant"?
Oh calm down. I'd forgotten how literal minded some on here are. I just meant that Mercedes are looking pretty dominant, being ahead a full second this morning and 3 tenths this afternoon. That looks pretty hard to compete with and sets the tone for a 1-2 parade, which reminds me of the last few years. Sheesh :uhoh:

I accept that this could all change tomorrow and Ferrari may well be holding back. It's just an impression

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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Jesus. I'm pretty calm. Just interested as I didn't watch the practice session's. I was enquiring whether what we saw this more morning was reminiscent of the previous 3 seasons because I didn't know and was interested. I was trying to find out if you were talking literally or not.

I don't know why you're being so sensitive.

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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Zoue »

mikeyg123 wrote:Jesus. I'm pretty calm. Just interested as I didn't watch the practice session's. I was enquiring whether what we saw this more morning was reminiscent of the previous 3 seasons because I didn't know and was interested. I was trying to find out if you were talking literally or not.

I don't know why you're being so sensitive.
fair enough, my apologies. Just looked like you were trying to make a point but I accept I misinterpreted.

lamo

Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by lamo »

My perosnal view is true dominance really begins in the 0.5-0.6 second per lap range. That means a driver can have an awful weekend and still win or come second to his team mate. If you can do 0.3-0.4 every single race then that is too. Red Bull in 2010 had for example 0.7-1.0 second at some tracks and a good margin at most but at a handful of tracks was level or slightly behind others. The 2017 Mercedes is just about 0.2-0.3 from being in the dominant range, so long as it fixes its tyre issues in the race too. That kind of margin would have them 1-2 nearly every qualifying by 0.4-0.5.

The development race could see this being a close fight all season or Mercedes winning 15+ races depending on which way it goes. Ferrari could also pull ahead of course, but I think this is the least likely.

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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Herb Tarlik »

Alex53 wrote:Alonso on radio:

"The engine feels good. Much slower than before. Amazing."

No way he's staying at this team.
How can a much slower engine feel good???

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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by robins13 »

Herb Tarlik wrote:
Alex53 wrote:Alonso on radio:

"The engine feels good. Much slower than before. Amazing."

No way he's staying at this team.
How can a much slower engine feel good???
He was being sarcastic as usual.

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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Herb Tarlik »

robins13 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Alex53 wrote:Alonso on radio:

"The engine feels good. Much slower than before. Amazing."

No way he's staying at this team.
How can a much slower engine feel good???
He was being sarcastic as usual.
Well, I can't blame him. I would be ripping Honda to shreds if I were in Alonso's shoes. Year after year after year of relentless failure is not the way to spend the latter half of your career.

Honda should simply drop out of F1 and join some junior racing league, maybe make carting engines. They are clearly way, waaay over their head in F1.

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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by carlisimo »

Unusually, the Spanish sports press has been writing editorials telling Alonso, "Look, we get it, but the Honda bashing isn't helping."

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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Herb Tarlik »

carlisimo wrote:Unusually, the Spanish sports press has been writing editorials telling Alonso, "Look, we get it, but the Honda bashing isn't helping."
Too bad for Honda. I think Fernando is completely justified with his comments.

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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Lotus49 »

carlisimo wrote:Unusually, the Spanish sports press has been writing editorials telling Alonso, "Look, we get it, but the Honda bashing isn't helping."
And in Germany one publication is saying he's doing it deliberately at the behest of McLaren to help break the Honda contract without penalty so they can use Mercedes power next year.

Brown and Oijeh met Wolff today about supply next year. McLaren are worried they'll get sued for breach of contract and have threatened to counter sue for Honda damaging their image if they are. Alonso turning the screw very publicly is deliberate.

Hoping Honda will let them out of it to save face and focus on rebuilding with Sauber. Mercedes willing to help Honda behind the scenes with AVL Graz who helped Ferrari.

http://www.autobild.de/artikel/formel-1 ... 54469.html

Not the greatest of sources it has to be said so I've no idea what to make of it all. We'll know by the end of the summer as the technical department needs the specifications for next years car.
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

Warheart01

Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Warheart01 »

Fernando probably is, the Honda is a joke after such long time being back in the sport. But I don't think he is doing himself any favours by acting the way he is in the sense that other teams are less willingly to hire him. He isn't coming across as a teamplayer (not saying he should be with Honda at this point) but he could be less vocal.

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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by kleefton »

Lotus49 wrote:
carlisimo wrote:Unusually, the Spanish sports press has been writing editorials telling Alonso, "Look, we get it, but the Honda bashing isn't helping."
And in Germany one publication is saying he's doing it deliberately at the behest of McLaren to help break the Honda contract without penalty so they can use Mercedes power next year.

Brown and Oijeh met Wolff today about supply next year. McLaren are worried they'll get sued for breach of contract and have threatened to counter sue for Honda damaging their image if they are. Alonso turning the screw very publicly is deliberate.

Hoping Honda will let them out of it to save face and focus on rebuilding with Sauber. Mercedes willing to help Honda behind the scenes with AVL Graz who helped Ferrari.

http://www.autobild.de/artikel/formel-1 ... 54469.html

Not the greatest of sources it has to be said so I've no idea what to make of it all. We'll know by the end of the summer as the technical department needs the specifications for next years car.
Yeah I sort of hope that source is correct. It is time for a divorce imo. Honda wouldn't have the audacity to sue for breach of contract I would think. For Mclaren's sake they need to end this. It is not good for them, not good for anybody.

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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Lotus49 »

kleefton wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
carlisimo wrote:Unusually, the Spanish sports press has been writing editorials telling Alonso, "Look, we get it, but the Honda bashing isn't helping."
And in Germany one publication is saying he's doing it deliberately at the behest of McLaren to help break the Honda contract without penalty so they can use Mercedes power next year.

Brown and Oijeh met Wolff today about supply next year. McLaren are worried they'll get sued for breach of contract and have threatened to counter sue for Honda damaging their image if they are. Alonso turning the screw very publicly is deliberate.

Hoping Honda will let them out of it to save face and focus on rebuilding with Sauber. Mercedes willing to help Honda behind the scenes with AVL Graz who helped Ferrari.

http://www.autobild.de/artikel/formel-1 ... 54469.html

Not the greatest of sources it has to be said so I've no idea what to make of it all. We'll know by the end of the summer as the technical department needs the specifications for next years car.
Yeah I sort of hope that source is correct. It is time for a divorce imo. Honda wouldn't have the audacity to sue for breach of contract I would think. For Mclaren's sake they need to end this. It is not good for them, not good for anybody.
I'm still a bit conflicted, I think it's important to be a works team long term but they will lose their star driver and the exposure that comes with it if they stay with Honda short term. I just can't see Honda showing enough before the summer break to keep him.

But McLaren need to be careful, if they dump Honda to try and keep Alonso and Renault keep making the strides they are they could end up without both. Alonso won't commit anywhere until the seats at Ferrari/Mercedes are sorted, he can't risk missing out on the possibility of something arising there so it will be October-ish I think until we know what he's doing whereas McLaren will have to move first with axing/staying with Honda as they need the lead time to create next years car.


Leaving might help short term results in 2018 with Mercedes power and a Stoff/?? line up but AVL won't need long to get Honda up to speed, they did it with Ferrari in 18 months so I think they'll be there in 2019 at least I'll bet. And Red Bull/Williams will gladly step in and claim works status again going into new engine regs a couple of seasons later.

And McLaren could be just another customer team with limited exposure,no star driver and no works status. A slippy slope as Williams found out.

It's a tricky situation to balance short term and long term gains with keeping an ageing star driver happy. As much as I like and rate Alonso I think if it were me in charge at this point I'd back AVL to get Honda competitive by mid 2018 so I'd stay with Honda and lose Alonso. I'd take the current pain for another season and look towards 2019 and the new reg in 2021.

Hurts their short term(Now to 2019) exposure and standing no doubt but a good car and engine will attract other talent post 2018(Lewis would be out of contract if he fancied another gamble,Dan too) and they can save on his wages in the meantime to absorb any commercial loses.

If no AVL help for Honda, I don't know, I'd probably do as you suggest because something feels fundamentally wrong with what Honda are doing themselves so it might be better to back Alonso+Stoff to get the most out of a customer powered Mercedes car if the chassis is good enough and look towards a new manufacturer for the new engine regs maybe.
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

Zoue
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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Zoue »

Lotus49 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
carlisimo wrote:Unusually, the Spanish sports press has been writing editorials telling Alonso, "Look, we get it, but the Honda bashing isn't helping."
And in Germany one publication is saying he's doing it deliberately at the behest of McLaren to help break the Honda contract without penalty so they can use Mercedes power next year.

Brown and Oijeh met Wolff today about supply next year. McLaren are worried they'll get sued for breach of contract and have threatened to counter sue for Honda damaging their image if they are. Alonso turning the screw very publicly is deliberate.

Hoping Honda will let them out of it to save face and focus on rebuilding with Sauber. Mercedes willing to help Honda behind the scenes with AVL Graz who helped Ferrari.

http://www.autobild.de/artikel/formel-1 ... 54469.html

Not the greatest of sources it has to be said so I've no idea what to make of it all. We'll know by the end of the summer as the technical department needs the specifications for next years car.
Yeah I sort of hope that source is correct. It is time for a divorce imo. Honda wouldn't have the audacity to sue for breach of contract I would think. For Mclaren's sake they need to end this. It is not good for them, not good for anybody.
I'm still a bit conflicted, I think it's important to be a works team long term but they will lose their star driver and the exposure that comes with it if they stay with Honda short term. I just can't see Honda showing enough before the summer break to keep him.

But McLaren need to be careful, if they dump Honda to try and keep Alonso and Renault keep making the strides they are they could end up without both. Alonso won't commit anywhere until the seats at Ferrari/Mercedes are sorted, he can't risk missing out on the possibility of something arising there so it will be October-ish I think until we know what he's doing whereas McLaren will have to move first with axing/staying with Honda as they need the lead time to create next years car.


Leaving might help short term results in 2018 with Mercedes power and a Stoff/?? line up but AVL won't need long to get Honda up to speed, they did it with Ferrari in 18 months so I think they'll be there in 2019 at least I'll bet. And Red Bull/Williams will gladly step in and claim works status again going into new engine regs a couple of seasons later.

And McLaren could be just another customer team with limited exposure,no star driver and no works status. A slippy slope as Williams found out.

It's a tricky situation to balance short term and long term gains with keeping an ageing star driver happy. As much as I like and rate Alonso I think if it were me in charge at this point I'd back AVL to get Honda competitive by mid 2018 so I'd stay with Honda and lose Alonso. I'd take the current pain for another season and look towards 2019 and the new reg in 2021.

Hurts their short term(Now to 2019) exposure and standing no doubt but a good car and engine will attract other talent post 2018(Lewis would be out of contract if he fancied another gamble,Dan too) and they can save on his wages in the meantime to absorb any commercial loses.

If no AVL help for Honda, I don't know, I'd probably do as you suggest because something feels fundamentally wrong with what Honda are doing themselves so it might be better to back Alonso+Stoff to get the most out of a customer powered Mercedes car if the chassis is good enough and look towards a new manufacturer for the new engine regs maybe.
Some good points, but I'd add that Honda's issues are more likely than not to deter other manufacturers even further from making the attempt. Whatever one thinks of Honda, they have immense resources to call upon and if they can still get it so spectacularly wrong after all this time surely this points to it being a major mountain to climb? I can't see any manufacturer being able to convince their boards that it's an acceptable risk, unless the new regs in the next decade simplify the PUs and make them more today's technology, rather than the day after tomorrow's.

I shouldn't like to be in Zak's shoes, but ultimately I still feel that a choice for Merc power is a choice for eternal mediocrity and that's a tough decision for anyone to take. Without a manufacturer behind them, they;ll be relegated to fighting Williams for best of the rest. A sad end for one of the most prestigious names in F1

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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Lotus49 »

Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
carlisimo wrote:Unusually, the Spanish sports press has been writing editorials telling Alonso, "Look, we get it, but the Honda bashing isn't helping."
And in Germany one publication is saying he's doing it deliberately at the behest of McLaren to help break the Honda contract without penalty so they can use Mercedes power next year.

Brown and Oijeh met Wolff today about supply next year. McLaren are worried they'll get sued for breach of contract and have threatened to counter sue for Honda damaging their image if they are. Alonso turning the screw very publicly is deliberate.

Hoping Honda will let them out of it to save face and focus on rebuilding with Sauber. Mercedes willing to help Honda behind the scenes with AVL Graz who helped Ferrari.

http://www.autobild.de/artikel/formel-1 ... 54469.html

Not the greatest of sources it has to be said so I've no idea what to make of it all. We'll know by the end of the summer as the technical department needs the specifications for next years car.
Yeah I sort of hope that source is correct. It is time for a divorce imo. Honda wouldn't have the audacity to sue for breach of contract I would think. For Mclaren's sake they need to end this. It is not good for them, not good for anybody.
I'm still a bit conflicted, I think it's important to be a works team long term but they will lose their star driver and the exposure that comes with it if they stay with Honda short term. I just can't see Honda showing enough before the summer break to keep him.

But McLaren need to be careful, if they dump Honda to try and keep Alonso and Renault keep making the strides they are they could end up without both. Alonso won't commit anywhere until the seats at Ferrari/Mercedes are sorted, he can't risk missing out on the possibility of something arising there so it will be October-ish I think until we know what he's doing whereas McLaren will have to move first with axing/staying with Honda as they need the lead time to create next years car.


Leaving might help short term results in 2018 with Mercedes power and a Stoff/?? line up but AVL won't need long to get Honda up to speed, they did it with Ferrari in 18 months so I think they'll be there in 2019 at least I'll bet. And Red Bull/Williams will gladly step in and claim works status again going into new engine regs a couple of seasons later.

And McLaren could be just another customer team with limited exposure,no star driver and no works status. A slippy slope as Williams found out.

It's a tricky situation to balance short term and long term gains with keeping an ageing star driver happy. As much as I like and rate Alonso I think if it were me in charge at this point I'd back AVL to get Honda competitive by mid 2018 so I'd stay with Honda and lose Alonso. I'd take the current pain for another season and look towards 2019 and the new reg in 2021.

Hurts their short term(Now to 2019) exposure and standing no doubt but a good car and engine will attract other talent post 2018(Lewis would be out of contract if he fancied another gamble,Dan too) and they can save on his wages in the meantime to absorb any commercial loses.

If no AVL help for Honda, I don't know, I'd probably do as you suggest because something feels fundamentally wrong with what Honda are doing themselves so it might be better to back Alonso+Stoff to get the most out of a customer powered Mercedes car if the chassis is good enough and look towards a new manufacturer for the new engine regs maybe.
Some good points, but I'd add that Honda's issues are more likely than not to deter other manufacturers even further from making the attempt. Whatever one thinks of Honda, they have immense resources to call upon and if they can still get it so spectacularly wrong after all this time surely this points to it being a major mountain to climb? I can't see any manufacturer being able to convince their boards that it's an acceptable risk, unless the new regs in the next decade simplify the PUs and make them more today's technology, rather than the day after tomorrow's.

I shouldn't like to be in Zak's shoes, but ultimately I still feel that a choice for Merc power is a choice for eternal mediocrity and that's a tough decision for anyone to take. Without a manufacturer behind them, they;ll be relegated to fighting Williams for best of the rest. A sad end for one of the most prestigious names in F1
Sorry yeah, for the remainder these regs no doubt, no chance another manufacturer enters but I think there is interest in the next one for 2021 as long as they dump the MGU-H which looks likely.

It's a horrid choice yeah,no easy route to the top and going either way can hurt their standing either short term,long or both.

I'm glad I'm not involved. :twisted:
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

Rockie
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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Rockie »

Lotus49 wrote:
carlisimo wrote:Unusually, the Spanish sports press has been writing editorials telling Alonso, "Look, we get it, but the Honda bashing isn't helping."
And in Germany one publication is saying he's doing it deliberately at the behest of McLaren to help break the Honda contract without penalty so they can use Mercedes power next year.

Brown and Oijeh met Wolff today about supply next year. McLaren are worried they'll get sued for breach of contract and have threatened to counter sue for Honda damaging their image if they are. Alonso turning the screw very publicly is deliberate.

Hoping Honda will let them out of it to save face and focus on rebuilding with Sauber. Mercedes willing to help Honda behind the scenes with AVL Graz who helped Ferrari.

http://www.autobild.de/artikel/formel-1 ... 54469.html

Not the greatest of sources it has to be said so I've no idea what to make of it all. We'll know by the end of the summer as the technical department needs the specifications for next years car.
Mclaren had Merc engine in '14 and they were absolute rubbish, as bad as the renault engine was they were beaten by Redbull.

pokerman
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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by pokerman »

Lotus49 wrote:
carlisimo wrote:Unusually, the Spanish sports press has been writing editorials telling Alonso, "Look, we get it, but the Honda bashing isn't helping."
And in Germany one publication is saying he's doing it deliberately at the behest of McLaren to help break the Honda contract without penalty so they can use Mercedes power next year.

Brown and Oijeh met Wolff today about supply next year. McLaren are worried they'll get sued for breach of contract and have threatened to counter sue for Honda damaging their image if they are. Alonso turning the screw very publicly is deliberate.

Hoping Honda will let them out of it to save face and focus on rebuilding with Sauber. Mercedes willing to help Honda behind the scenes with AVL Graz who helped Ferrari.

http://www.autobild.de/artikel/formel-1 ... 54469.html

Not the greatest of sources it has to be said so I've no idea what to make of it all. We'll know by the end of the summer as the technical department needs the specifications for next years car.
I remember when Honda entered F1 with the turbo engine back in the 80's they first supplied a lower team, I think it was Spirit?

Anyway once the engine started to show promise Williams took over the engines and had great success with them, maybe that's the Honda blue print they should have followed?
Last edited by pokerman on Fri May 12, 2017 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lotus49
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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Lotus49 »

Rockie wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
carlisimo wrote:Unusually, the Spanish sports press has been writing editorials telling Alonso, "Look, we get it, but the Honda bashing isn't helping."
And in Germany one publication is saying he's doing it deliberately at the behest of McLaren to help break the Honda contract without penalty so they can use Mercedes power next year.

Brown and Oijeh met Wolff today about supply next year. McLaren are worried they'll get sued for breach of contract and have threatened to counter sue for Honda damaging their image if they are. Alonso turning the screw very publicly is deliberate.

Hoping Honda will let them out of it to save face and focus on rebuilding with Sauber. Mercedes willing to help Honda behind the scenes with AVL Graz who helped Ferrari.

http://www.autobild.de/artikel/formel-1 ... 54469.html

Not the greatest of sources it has to be said so I've no idea what to make of it all. We'll know by the end of the summer as the technical department needs the specifications for next years car.
Mclaren had Merc engine in '14 and they were absolute rubbish, as bad as the renault engine was they were beaten by Redbull.
And?. Hypothetically i'm assuming they believe they will build a better car in 2018 and will have full support from the Mercedes engineers this time around.

I don't know if they'll be able to use Petronas this time instead though as I don't know the particulars about the BP deal. I would hope they would though as using Mobil hurt them in 2014 to the tune of 15-40bhp (lowest and highest I've read).

Different circumstances,people and different time bringing better results would be the thinking I guess.
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

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Lotus49
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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Lotus49 »

pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
carlisimo wrote:Unusually, the Spanish sports press has been writing editorials telling Alonso, "Look, we get it, but the Honda bashing isn't helping."
And in Germany one publication is saying he's doing it deliberately at the behest of McLaren to help break the Honda contract without penalty so they can use Mercedes power next year.

Brown and Oijeh met Wolff today about supply next year. McLaren are worried they'll get sued for breach of contract and have threatened to counter sue for Honda damaging their image if they are. Alonso turning the screw very publicly is deliberate.

Hoping Honda will let them out of it to save face and focus on rebuilding with Sauber. Mercedes willing to help Honda behind the scenes with AVL Graz who helped Ferrari.

http://www.autobild.de/artikel/formel-1 ... 54469.html

Not the greatest of sources it has to be said so I've no idea what to make of it all. We'll know by the end of the summer as the technical department needs the specifications for next years car.
I remember when Honda entered F1 with the turbo engine back in the 80's they first supplied a lower team, I think it was Spirit?

Anyway once the engine started to show promise Williams took over the the engines and had great success with them, maybe that's the Honda blue print they should have followed?
It certainly would have brought them less exposure and internal and external pressures.
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

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ob1kenobi.23
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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by ob1kenobi.23 »

Zoue wrote:Mercedes' upgrades certainly haven't made them any worse. Hamilton and Bottas look fairly evenly matched but they appear comfortably ahead of Ferrari. Anyone have any details on long run pace?



http://www.rachf1.com/news/mercedes-mil ... -long-runs
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