Worst driver career decisions

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pokerman
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Re: Worst driver career decisions

Post by pokerman »

lamo wrote:Mercedes were on a general down from when they entered F1, especially the awful second half to 2012 when Hamilton actually signed.

2009: won both titles as Brawn
2010: 214 points
2011: 165 points
2012: 142 points

Hamilton got lucky with how good that 2013 car was and they scored 360 points.
Yep I think Hamilton made a point of saying it might take awhile until he wins another race, some members were comparing him with JV who never won another race after leaving Williams, future success was maybe obvious for some, not so obvious for many more.
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Rockie
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Re: Worst driver career decisions

Post by Rockie »

lamo wrote:Mercedes were on a general down from when they entered F1, especially the awful second half to 2012 when Hamilton actually signed.

2009: won both titles as Brawn
2010: 214 points
2011: 165 points
2012: 142 points

Hamilton got lucky with how good that 2013 car was and they scored 360 points.
2012 was an unusual year as in that same year Maldonaldo won a race also in China Merc were on for a 1,2 finish till MSC's retirement and he had a lot of dnfs as well!

They were on the way up you dont get lucky with a car.

It's like Vettel says a lot of things came together last year but wasn't reflected in the results! Will you call it getting lucky with the car this year?

When preparation meets opportunity the layman sees it as luck!

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Re: Worst driver career decisions

Post by Rockie »

Pole2Win wrote:
Rockie wrote:As per Lewis he didn't take a gamble, Mercedes were on the up already and also analysts were already saying they were going to have the best hybrid engine, which surprise surprise they did!
They were going to have the best engine, but what about the rest of the car? ;)

They already had the best engine between 2009-2013, but their car was a tire eater which was useless in the races, and ultimately not fast enough to challenge the top cars of the time.
It was a design flaw they were waiting for the new rules to fix, also they fixed their tyre issues with the illegal test in 2013 which fixed it during the season!

lamo

Re: Worst driver career decisions

Post by lamo »

Rockie wrote:
lamo wrote:Mercedes were on a general down from when they entered F1, especially the awful second half to 2012 when Hamilton actually signed.

2009: won both titles as Brawn
2010: 214 points
2011: 165 points
2012: 142 points

Hamilton got lucky with how good that 2013 car was and they scored 360 points.
2012 was an unusual year as in that same year Maldonaldo won a race also in China Merc were on for a 1,2 finish till MSC's retirement and he had a lot of dnfs as well!

They were on the way up you dont get lucky with a car.

It's like Vettel says a lot of things came together last year but wasn't reflected in the results! Will you call it getting lucky with the car this year?

When preparation meets opportunity the layman sees it as luck!
Hamilton got lucky in the way Alonso got unlucky going to Honda, i.e. things outside of his control conspired to create a good situation that didn't seem likely. Hamilton was sold on the 2014 dream, 2013 was a big bonus. Mercedes did not expect 3 wins, 8-9 poles and second place in the WCC for 2013. The points table doesn't lie, they finished in a worse position with each passing season and the car they had in the second half of 2012 is the worst car they ever had by some distance. In the last 12 races of 2012, it managed 40 points every single team bar Caterham, Marussa and HRT out scored them in those last 12 races.

The team didn't get lucky, they put the work in. Hamilton got lucky with his timing especially in the context of his previous team going from 1st/2nd to 4th/5th quickest. Likewise Alonso was even more unlucky if you consider Ferrari's form for 2015.
Last edited by lamo on Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

Rockie
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Re: Worst driver career decisions

Post by Rockie »

lamo wrote:
Rockie wrote:
lamo wrote:Mercedes were on a general down from when they entered F1, especially the awful second half to 2012 when Hamilton actually signed.

2009: won both titles as Brawn
2010: 214 points
2011: 165 points
2012: 142 points

Hamilton got lucky with how good that 2013 car was and they scored 360 points.
2012 was an unusual year as in that same year Maldonaldo won a race also in China Merc were on for a 1,2 finish till MSC's retirement and he had a lot of dnfs as well!

They were on the way up you dont get lucky with a car.

It's like Vettel says a lot of things came together last year but wasn't reflected in the results! Will you call it getting lucky with the car this year?

When preparation meets opportunity the layman sees it as luck!
Hamilton got lucky in the way Alonso got unlucky going to Honda, i.e. things outside of his control conspired to create a good situation that didn't seem likely. Hamilton was sold on the 2014 dream, 2013 was a big bonus. Mercedes did not expect 3 wins, 8-9 poles and second place in the WCC for 2013.

The team didn't get lucky, they put the work in. Hamilton got lucky with his timing especially in the context of his previous team going from 1st/2nd to 4th/5th quickest. Likewise Alonso was even more unlucky if you consider Ferrari's form for 2015.
Consider this for a second Mclaren had the Merc engine in 2014 and they were nowhere that season, considering Williams without the engineering prowess and Redbull with a dud Renault lump did well!

lamo

Re: Worst driver career decisions

Post by lamo »

I don't understand your point?

Mercedes informed Hamilton Mclaren would not be able to compete with them in 2014 as a customer, its a major reason he signed. They told him (which turned out to be true) that customers would not get access to the oils and lubricants the works teams were using, said to be worth over half a second per lap. Its the same reason that Mercedes head of engines said that Williams had the best chassis during 2014 at 3-4 races but Mercedes were saved by the lubricants.

This is also the same reason why Mclaren left the best engine for a risky move to Honda.

pbchillin
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Re: Worst driver career decisions

Post by pbchillin »

Not the worst of all time, but what about Eddie Irvine to Jaguar in 2000?

His stock was high when leaving Ferrari, 4 race wins and taking Hakkinen to the last race in a fight for the 1999 WDC. Stewart GP had looked really good the year before in 1999 (one of the reasons Barrichello was chosen to suceed Irvine after all!), only for the whole Jaguar F1 operation to be a total mess.

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Re: Worst driver career decisions

Post by Rockie »

lamo wrote:I don't understand your point?

Mercedes informed Hamilton Mclaren would not be able to compete with them in 2014 as a customer, its a major reason he signed. They told him (which turned out to be true) that customers would not get access to the oils and lubricants the works teams were using, said to be worth over half a second per lap. Its the same reason that Mercedes head of engines said that Williams had the best chassis during 2014 at 3-4 races but Mercedes were saved by the lubricants.

This is also the same reason why Mclaren left the best engine for a risky move to Honda.
The point highlighted is a blatant lie considering Williams didn't win a race and Redbull won also in the wet when engine power didnt matter Williams were no were even Vettel who was having a terrible season qualified less than a tenth behind Hamilton!

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Lotus49
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Re: Worst driver career decisions

Post by Lotus49 »

Rockie wrote:
lamo wrote:I don't understand your point?

Mercedes informed Hamilton Mclaren would not be able to compete with them in 2014 as a customer, its a major reason he signed. They told him (which turned out to be true) that customers would not get access to the oils and lubricants the works teams were using, said to be worth over half a second per lap. Its the same reason that Mercedes head of engines said that Williams had the best chassis during 2014 at 3-4 races but Mercedes were saved by the lubricants.

This is also the same reason why Mclaren left the best engine for a risky move to Honda.

The point highlighted is a blatant lie
considering Williams didn't win a race and Redbull won also in the wet when engine power didnt matter Williams were no were even Vettel who was having a terrible season qualified less than a tenth behind Hamilton!
Not it isn't actually. I think it was Andy Cowell that said it. And he was referring to low downforce tracks like Monza and Austria(The one Felipe got pole).

And he was right, the Williams was as slippery as an eel-which is why it sucked in the wet.
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Re: Worst driver career decisions

Post by mcdo »

Pole2Win wrote:Can we really blame Alonso for going to McLaren? Let's be honest, Hamilton did the same in 2013 when there was no guarantee Mercedes would be a world beater in 2014. It was a change in regulations and anything could've happened.

The stranger move was Vettel to Ferrari in 2015, though at that point he probably wanted to do something different, and the fact he got beaten by Ricciardo didn't help either.
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mcdo
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Re: Worst driver career decisions

Post by mcdo »

funkymonkey wrote:
mcdo wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:Surely not many can come close to the Alonso situation. Its a multiple world champion driver on top of his game moving to a team that was constantly in top 3 - 4 running for over a decade and half and ending up towards end with the name like Honda attached to it.

That has to be the most disastrous career moves out there. I clearly thought it was a mistake on Alonso's part to leave Ferrari. I said so here in these forums back then. But not in my life I would have guessed McLaren will end up that bad and fail to improve for 3 years.

Its almost tragic. We see each weekend that Alonso still got the pace and hunger and racecraft. And car keeps letting him and F1 fans down. So much so it is borderline disgrace to modern F1.
McLaren Honda race finish history looks like we are seeing leader boards from 80s and early 90s with DNF after DNF.
Not many examples in this thread involves a world class driver like Alonso.

I dont see Alonso moving to McLaren first time as disaster. He and McLaren had a great year that season even with all the crap that went down. I also dont see him moving to Renault as a disaster. At that point he pretty much knew the move to Ferrari is coming up in 2 years.
But his move away from Ferrari has been nothing short of disaster.
What would he have achieved by staying at Ferrari? A few more wins and more appearances on the podium? After more of the same old ding dong throughout 2015 and 2016 it's hard to imagine he'd still be there

If he left after 2016 and Ferrari win a title this year I'd call it a disastrous career move
We will never know.
Anything is better than spending time in McLaren Honda. There has been no progress. Not a slight chance of win. Not even hint of podium. Rare top 10 finishes.
It is nothing short of disaster. And what I said 3 years back still stands. Had he kept faith in Ferrari they would eventually deliver. And they have this year.
Take a look back at 2016. They made clear progress. Both drivers each had 2 PU-related race-ending DNFs. Only one more than Lewis Hamilton!
Points were the regular in Alonso's hands

The team wasn't where they wanted to be last year but they were way better than what you've called out

The reasons why they had to redesign this year have been made above
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lamo

Re: Worst driver career decisions

Post by lamo »

Rockie wrote:
lamo wrote:I don't understand your point?

Mercedes informed Hamilton Mclaren would not be able to compete with them in 2014 as a customer, its a major reason he signed. They told him (which turned out to be true) that customers would not get access to the oils and lubricants the works teams were using, said to be worth over half a second per lap. Its the same reason that Mercedes head of engines said that Williams had the best chassis during 2014 at 3-4 races but Mercedes were saved by the lubricants.

This is also the same reason why Mclaren left the best engine for a risky move to Honda.
The point highlighted is a blatant lie considering Williams didn't win a race and Redbull won also in the wet when engine power didnt matter Williams were no were even Vettel who was having a terrible season qualified less than a tenth behind Hamilton!
1) Red Bull did not win in the wet. They won 3 races, one in which both Mercedes had ERS failures. One in which both Mercedes collided and had damaged cars and one more where a badly timed SC cost a certain Nico win and Hamilton started P20.

2) Williams had the best chassis for some of the low down force tracks. Williams were within 0.2-0.3 of Mercedes at a few tracks. Austria, Silverstone and Russia spring to mind. Mercedes head of engines (the man you are calling a liar) knows what Mercedes lubricants are worth (the ones customers don't get) and if Williams came within that advantage then surely their chassis is better. I think I will take his word over yours, his name is Andy Cowell and he is head of Engines at Mercedes.

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Re: Worst driver career decisions

Post by Lt. Drebin »

pbchillin wrote:Not the worst of all time, but what about Eddie Irvine to Jaguar in 2000?

His stock was high when leaving Ferrari, 4 race wins and taking Hakkinen to the last race in a fight for the 1999 WDC. Stewart GP had looked really good the year before in 1999 (one of the reasons Barrichello was chosen to suceed Irvine after all!), only for the whole Jaguar F1 operation to be a total mess.
Spot on. :thumbup:

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funkymonkey
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Re: Worst driver career decisions

Post by funkymonkey »

mcdo wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:
mcdo wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:Surely not many can come close to the Alonso situation. Its a multiple world champion driver on top of his game moving to a team that was constantly in top 3 - 4 running for over a decade and half and ending up towards end with the name like Honda attached to it.

That has to be the most disastrous career moves out there. I clearly thought it was a mistake on Alonso's part to leave Ferrari. I said so here in these forums back then. But not in my life I would have guessed McLaren will end up that bad and fail to improve for 3 years.

Its almost tragic. We see each weekend that Alonso still got the pace and hunger and racecraft. And car keeps letting him and F1 fans down. So much so it is borderline disgrace to modern F1.
McLaren Honda race finish history looks like we are seeing leader boards from 80s and early 90s with DNF after DNF.
Not many examples in this thread involves a world class driver like Alonso.

I dont see Alonso moving to McLaren first time as disaster. He and McLaren had a great year that season even with all the crap that went down. I also dont see him moving to Renault as a disaster. At that point he pretty much knew the move to Ferrari is coming up in 2 years.
But his move away from Ferrari has been nothing short of disaster.
What would he have achieved by staying at Ferrari? A few more wins and more appearances on the podium? After more of the same old ding dong throughout 2015 and 2016 it's hard to imagine he'd still be there

If he left after 2016 and Ferrari win a title this year I'd call it a disastrous career move
We will never know.
Anything is better than spending time in McLaren Honda. There has been no progress. Not a slight chance of win. Not even hint of podium. Rare top 10 finishes.
It is nothing short of disaster. And what I said 3 years back still stands. Had he kept faith in Ferrari they would eventually deliver. And they have this year.
Take a look back at 2016. They made clear progress. Both drivers each had 2 PU-related race-ending DNFs. Only one more than Lewis Hamilton!
Points were the regular in Alonso's hands

The team wasn't where they wanted to be last year but they were way better than what you've called out

The reasons why they had to redesign this year have been made above
yes, but not good enough for McLaren or Honda. Its not just abotu PU failures but sudden loss of ERS, electrical niggles all count in the end.

What Alonso did with that defies logic. And full marks to him for that. But that really wouldnt surprise anyone would it? He has been doing that ever since he first left McLaren.

And yes, going to McLaren was a huge mistake. Of all teams, to go back to McLaren? It was a huge mistake and I fully blame Alonso for that, nobody else. It sucks to see him there. He deserves better but he is only to blame for this situation and lot of us saw it coming.

The only logical step up from Ferrari would have been Mercedes or RedBull. I had personally lost all faith in McLaren after 2012 and I always held firm belief that they are in steady decline. Hamilton leaving them was clear sign of things to come. He thought he knew better, he thought he can put faith in Honda. He is proved wrong. And its a tragedy.

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Re: Worst driver career decisions

Post by slide »

pokerman wrote:
MistaVega23 wrote:Hill to Arrows. Today that'll be like Hamilton winning the title, then moving to Sauber when Red Bull had offered him a drive.

Fisichella to Ferrari 2009 - after pole and a podium in Spa in the Force India, Fisi did only slightly better than the embarrassing Badoer. Although he stayed with Ferrari after that, his career could have gone on for at least a couple more seasons with the improving Force India.

I have to also mention Montoya at McLaren. I remember thinking at the time 'this doesn't fit' - it was the wrong move from day one.
Hill didn't have much choice because he had been sacked by Williams and Arrows were the ones offering him the most money.
and arrows promised so much from their motorsport boss(can't remember his name)

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Re: Worst driver career decisions

Post by Pole2Win »

slide wrote:and arrows promised so much from their motorsport boss(can't remember his name)
That was Tom Walkinshaw. TWR had success in other series but, as usual, F1 proved to be a step too far.
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Re: Worst driver career decisions

Post by Rockie »

lamo wrote:
Rockie wrote:
lamo wrote:I don't understand your point?

Mercedes informed Hamilton Mclaren would not be able to compete with them in 2014 as a customer, its a major reason he signed. They told him (which turned out to be true) that customers would not get access to the oils and lubricants the works teams were using, said to be worth over half a second per lap. Its the same reason that Mercedes head of engines said that Williams had the best chassis during 2014 at 3-4 races but Mercedes were saved by the lubricants.

This is also the same reason why Mclaren left the best engine for a risky move to Honda.
The point highlighted is a blatant lie considering Williams didn't win a race and Redbull won also in the wet when engine power didnt matter Williams were no were even Vettel who was having a terrible season qualified less than a tenth behind Hamilton!
1) Red Bull did not win in the wet. They won 3 races, one in which both Mercedes had ERS failures. One in which both Mercedes collided and had damaged cars and one more where a badly timed SC cost a certain Nico win and Hamilton started P20.

2) Williams had the best chassis for some of the low down force tracks. Williams were within 0.2-0.3 of Mercedes at a few tracks. Austria, Silverstone and Russia spring to mind. Mercedes head of engines (the man you are calling a liar) knows what Mercedes lubricants are worth (the ones customers don't get) and if Williams came within that advantage then surely their chassis is better. I think I will take his word over yours, his name is Andy Cowell and he is head of Engines at Mercedes.
My bad for not putting a comma after the won.

What best chassis did Williams have? In Malaysia and Silverstone they were nowhere in the wet, only reason they were close to Merc was the engine!

lamo

Re: Worst driver career decisions

Post by lamo »

Austria. Williams on pole by 0.2 over Mercedes. 1-2 on the grid. Bottas finishes 3rd just 8 seconds off the lead. Mercedes special works oils were worth 0.4-0.8 per lap depending on the race. Austria is a very short lap so probably more like 0.3 there. Williams definitely had the best package in Austria. Massa out qualified Ricciardo by 1.7 seconds to gauge how far back the Red Bull was. 1.7 seconds on a 70 second lap is huge.

Germany. Bottas qualified 0.2 behind Rosberg and again with the special fuels would have been on pole and challenging for the win.

Russia. Bottas was 0.4 off pole at the very long lap in Russia. Again, likely a Bottas pole and challenge for win with the extra 0.5+ in fuel mix.

AD. Another race they were 0.5 off, a very long lap too so the fuels probably worth 0.5+ there too.

Those are probably the 3-4 races Cowell is referring too as well as Silverstone. The Williams was hopeless in the wet yes, but the race that was dry saw Bottas go from 18th to 2nd. A chassis isn't only judged on how it performs in the wet, the chassis and concept was a low drag car.

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Re: Worst driver career decisions

Post by mikeyg123 »

lamo wrote:Austria. Williams on pole by 0.2 over Mercedes. 1-2 on the grid. Bottas finishes 3rd just 8 seconds off the lead. Mercedes special works oils were worth 0.4-0.8 per lap depending on the race. Austria is a very short lap so probably more like 0.3 there. Williams definitely had the best package in Austria. Massa out qualified Ricciardo by 1.7 seconds to gauge how far back the Red Bull was. 1.7 seconds on a 70 second lap is huge.

Germany. Bottas qualified 0.2 behind Rosberg and again with the special fuels would have been on pole and challenging for the win.

Russia. Bottas was 0.4 off pole at the very long lap in Russia. Again, likely a Bottas pole and challenge for win with the extra 0.5+ in fuel mix.

AD. Another race they were 0.5 off, a very long lap too so the fuels probably worth 0.5+ there too.

Those are probably the 3-4 races Cowell is referring too as well as Silverstone. The Williams was hopeless in the wet yes, but the race that was dry saw Bottas go from 18th to 2nd. A chassis isn't only judged on how it performs in the wet, the chassis and concept was a low drag car.
Not to mention in 2014 there was probably a few tenths gained in driver ability for Mercedes. A factor nobody ever seems to account for when trying to establish a pecking order for cars.

lamo

Re: Worst driver career decisions

Post by lamo »

mike> I personally always account for drivers in the comparisons but avoided it here as I didn't want to derail the conversation. One race ago I probably would have said Hamilton/Rosberg also had a 0.1-0.3 over Bottas on average too making the Williams comprehensively better at these races. However, given Russia it is possible that Bottas is on and possibly in some races was even at a higher level than one or both Mercedes drivers. We need a bit more data on Hamilton vs Bottas. I think that will make 2014 a bit clearer. Even if we conclude Bottas = fastest Mercedes driver on any given weekend in 2014 that Williams was still better than the Mercedes in quite a few races.

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Re: Worst driver career decisions

Post by mikeyg123 »

lamo wrote:mike> I personally always account for drivers in the comparisons but avoided it here as I didn't want to derail the conversation. One race ago I probably would have said Hamilton/Rosberg also had a 0.1-0.3 over Bottas on average too making the Williams comprehensively better at these races. However, given Russia it is possible that Bottas is on and possibly in some races was even at a higher level than one or both Mercedes drivers. We need a bit more data on Hamilton vs Bottas. I think that will make 2014 a bit clearer. Even if we conclude Bottas = fastest Mercedes driver on any given weekend in 2014 that Williams was still better than the Mercedes in quite a few races.
All true. I felt safe mentioning it because Bottas was only in his second season in 2014 and will have improved since then. You can map his performances against Massa from 2014 to 2016 and see he is better in 2016.

lamo

Re: Worst driver career decisions

Post by lamo »

mikeyg123 wrote:
lamo wrote:mike> I personally always account for drivers in the comparisons but avoided it here as I didn't want to derail the conversation. One race ago I probably would have said Hamilton/Rosberg also had a 0.1-0.3 over Bottas on average too making the Williams comprehensively better at these races. However, given Russia it is possible that Bottas is on and possibly in some races was even at a higher level than one or both Mercedes drivers. We need a bit more data on Hamilton vs Bottas. I think that will make 2014 a bit clearer. Even if we conclude Bottas = fastest Mercedes driver on any given weekend in 2014 that Williams was still better than the Mercedes in quite a few races.
All true. I felt safe mentioning it because Bottas was only in his second season in 2014 and will have improved since then. You can map his performances against Massa from 2014 to 2016 and see he is better in 2016.
Yes good point, I forgot that.

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Re: Worst driver career decisions

Post by mcdo »

funkymonkey wrote:
mcdo wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:
mcdo wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:Surely not many can come close to the Alonso situation. Its a multiple world champion driver on top of his game moving to a team that was constantly in top 3 - 4 running for over a decade and half and ending up towards end with the name like Honda attached to it.

That has to be the most disastrous career moves out there. I clearly thought it was a mistake on Alonso's part to leave Ferrari. I said so here in these forums back then. But not in my life I would have guessed McLaren will end up that bad and fail to improve for 3 years.

Its almost tragic. We see each weekend that Alonso still got the pace and hunger and racecraft. And car keeps letting him and F1 fans down. So much so it is borderline disgrace to modern F1.
McLaren Honda race finish history looks like we are seeing leader boards from 80s and early 90s with DNF after DNF.
Not many examples in this thread involves a world class driver like Alonso.

I dont see Alonso moving to McLaren first time as disaster. He and McLaren had a great year that season even with all the crap that went down. I also dont see him moving to Renault as a disaster. At that point he pretty much knew the move to Ferrari is coming up in 2 years.
But his move away from Ferrari has been nothing short of disaster.
What would he have achieved by staying at Ferrari? A few more wins and more appearances on the podium? After more of the same old ding dong throughout 2015 and 2016 it's hard to imagine he'd still be there

If he left after 2016 and Ferrari win a title this year I'd call it a disastrous career move
We will never know.
Anything is better than spending time in McLaren Honda. There has been no progress. Not a slight chance of win. Not even hint of podium. Rare top 10 finishes.
It is nothing short of disaster. And what I said 3 years back still stands. Had he kept faith in Ferrari they would eventually deliver. And they have this year.
Take a look back at 2016. They made clear progress. Both drivers each had 2 PU-related race-ending DNFs. Only one more than Lewis Hamilton!
Points were the regular in Alonso's hands

The team wasn't where they wanted to be last year but they were way better than what you've called out

The reasons why they had to redesign this year have been made above
yes, but not good enough for McLaren or Honda. Its not just abotu PU failures but sudden loss of ERS, electrical niggles all count in the end.

What Alonso did with that defies logic. And full marks to him for that. But that really wouldnt surprise anyone would it? He has been doing that ever since he first left McLaren.

And yes, going to McLaren was a huge mistake. Of all teams, to go back to McLaren? It was a huge mistake and I fully blame Alonso for that, nobody else. It sucks to see him there. He deserves better but he is only to blame for this situation and lot of us saw it coming.

The only logical step up from Ferrari would have been Mercedes or RedBull. I had personally lost all faith in McLaren after 2012 and I always held firm belief that they are in steady decline. Hamilton leaving them was clear sign of things to come. He thought he knew better, he thought he can put faith in Honda. He is proved wrong. And its a tragedy.
Those PU issues may be so but you said "There has been no progress... Rare top 10 finishes." - 2016 proved that wrong. There was progress. It did happen you've chosen to ignore it

What Alonso did was a gamble. Everybody with a brain still intact can see that Alonso could have stayed at Ferrari and would still be a 2-time WDC. Absolutely nothing would have changed. Why not roll the dice and go for the McLaren-Honda gamble? Nobody back then could tell that it wasn't going to work. Staying at Ferrari this entire time would have achieved absolutely nothing.
He's now driving the same combination as his hero Ayrton Senna. He also gets to drive Senna's race cars on promotional days. I'm pretty sure Sebastian Vettel is the only other guy who gets paid $50 million and gets to drive his hero's cars on his days off

And on the 2nd half, don't be silly - going to Red Bull was never an option. They have a proven track record of promoting exciting young drivers and will never hire the likes of Alonso to upset their applecart. Why in the name of god do you think Alonso would ever have a shot at getting a seat there? And secondly, do you think he would have added to his 2 title tally driving a distant 2nd, sometimes 3rd, Red Bull?! If so then surely you must believe he's the greatest driver of all time if you think that at some point between 2015-16 he could use a Red Bull to overhaul the Mercs!
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Re: Worst driver career decisions

Post by pokerman »

mcdo wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:
mcdo wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:
mcdo wrote: What would he have achieved by staying at Ferrari? A few more wins and more appearances on the podium? After more of the same old ding dong throughout 2015 and 2016 it's hard to imagine he'd still be there

If he left after 2016 and Ferrari win a title this year I'd call it a disastrous career move
We will never know.
Anything is better than spending time in McLaren Honda. There has been no progress. Not a slight chance of win. Not even hint of podium. Rare top 10 finishes.
It is nothing short of disaster. And what I said 3 years back still stands. Had he kept faith in Ferrari they would eventually deliver. And they have this year.
Take a look back at 2016. They made clear progress. Both drivers each had 2 PU-related race-ending DNFs. Only one more than Lewis Hamilton!
Points were the regular in Alonso's hands

The team wasn't where they wanted to be last year but they were way better than what you've called out

The reasons why they had to redesign this year have been made above
yes, but not good enough for McLaren or Honda. Its not just abotu PU failures but sudden loss of ERS, electrical niggles all count in the end.

What Alonso did with that defies logic. And full marks to him for that. But that really wouldnt surprise anyone would it? He has been doing that ever since he first left McLaren.

And yes, going to McLaren was a huge mistake. Of all teams, to go back to McLaren? It was a huge mistake and I fully blame Alonso for that, nobody else. It sucks to see him there. He deserves better but he is only to blame for this situation and lot of us saw it coming.

The only logical step up from Ferrari would have been Mercedes or RedBull. I had personally lost all faith in McLaren after 2012 and I always held firm belief that they are in steady decline. Hamilton leaving them was clear sign of things to come. He thought he knew better, he thought he can put faith in Honda. He is proved wrong. And its a tragedy.
Those PU issues may be so but you said "There has been no progress... Rare top 10 finishes." - 2016 proved that wrong. There was progress. It did happen you've chosen to ignore it

What Alonso did was a gamble. Everybody with a brain still intact can see that Alonso could have stayed at Ferrari and would still be a 2-time WDC. Absolutely nothing would have changed. Why not roll the dice and go for the McLaren-Honda gamble? Nobody back then could tell that it wasn't going to work. Staying at Ferrari this entire time would have achieved absolutely nothing.
He's now driving the same combination as his hero Ayrton Senna. He also gets to drive Senna's race cars on promotional days. I'm pretty sure Sebastian Vettel is the only other guy who gets paid $50 million and gets to drive his hero's cars on his days off

And on the 2nd half, don't be silly - going to Red Bull was never an option. They have a proven track record of promoting exciting young drivers and will never hire the likes of Alonso to upset their applecart. Why in the name of god do you think Alonso would ever have a shot at getting a seat there? And secondly, do you think he would have added to his 2 title tally driving a distant 2nd, sometimes 3rd, Red Bull?! If so then surely you must believe he's the greatest driver of all time if you think that at some point between 2015-16 he could use a Red Bull to overhaul the Mercs!
In 2014 Ferrari were negotiating with Alonso to extend his contract until 2018/19, one or the other, if Alonso had signed the new contract then he presently would be leading the WDC.
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Re: Worst driver career decisions

Post by mcdo »

pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:
mcdo wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:We will never know.
Anything is better than spending time in McLaren Honda. There has been no progress. Not a slight chance of win. Not even hint of podium. Rare top 10 finishes.
It is nothing short of disaster. And what I said 3 years back still stands. Had he kept faith in Ferrari they would eventually deliver. And they have this year.
Take a look back at 2016. They made clear progress. Both drivers each had 2 PU-related race-ending DNFs. Only one more than Lewis Hamilton!
Points were the regular in Alonso's hands

The team wasn't where they wanted to be last year but they were way better than what you've called out

The reasons why they had to redesign this year have been made above
yes, but not good enough for McLaren or Honda. Its not just abotu PU failures but sudden loss of ERS, electrical niggles all count in the end.

What Alonso did with that defies logic. And full marks to him for that. But that really wouldnt surprise anyone would it? He has been doing that ever since he first left McLaren.

And yes, going to McLaren was a huge mistake. Of all teams, to go back to McLaren? It was a huge mistake and I fully blame Alonso for that, nobody else. It sucks to see him there. He deserves better but he is only to blame for this situation and lot of us saw it coming.

The only logical step up from Ferrari would have been Mercedes or RedBull. I had personally lost all faith in McLaren after 2012 and I always held firm belief that they are in steady decline. Hamilton leaving them was clear sign of things to come. He thought he knew better, he thought he can put faith in Honda. He is proved wrong. And its a tragedy.
Those PU issues may be so but you said "There has been no progress... Rare top 10 finishes." - 2016 proved that wrong. There was progress. It did happen you've chosen to ignore it

What Alonso did was a gamble. Everybody with a brain still intact can see that Alonso could have stayed at Ferrari and would still be a 2-time WDC. Absolutely nothing would have changed. Why not roll the dice and go for the McLaren-Honda gamble? Nobody back then could tell that it wasn't going to work. Staying at Ferrari this entire time would have achieved absolutely nothing.
He's now driving the same combination as his hero Ayrton Senna. He also gets to drive Senna's race cars on promotional days. I'm pretty sure Sebastian Vettel is the only other guy who gets paid $50 million and gets to drive his hero's cars on his days off

And on the 2nd half, don't be silly - going to Red Bull was never an option. They have a proven track record of promoting exciting young drivers and will never hire the likes of Alonso to upset their applecart. Why in the name of god do you think Alonso would ever have a shot at getting a seat there? And secondly, do you think he would have added to his 2 title tally driving a distant 2nd, sometimes 3rd, Red Bull?! If so then surely you must believe he's the greatest driver of all time if you think that at some point between 2015-16 he could use a Red Bull to overhaul the Mercs!
In 2014 Ferrari were negotiating with Alonso to extend his contract until 2018/19, one or the other, if Alonso had signed the new contract then he presently would be leading the WDC.
He led the WDC in a Ferrari before. Leading for a period of time isn't enough. There's a long way to go this year
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Re: Worst driver career decisions

Post by lamo »

I am not sure if mentioned but Schumacher choosing to retire rather than face Kimi / force Massa to lose his seat is a pretty big one. I don't think we wanted to retire but Ferrari felt they needed to secure his replacement.

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Re: Worst driver career decisions

Post by pokerman »

mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:
mcdo wrote: Take a look back at 2016. They made clear progress. Both drivers each had 2 PU-related race-ending DNFs. Only one more than Lewis Hamilton!
Points were the regular in Alonso's hands

The team wasn't where they wanted to be last year but they were way better than what you've called out

The reasons why they had to redesign this year have been made above
yes, but not good enough for McLaren or Honda. Its not just abotu PU failures but sudden loss of ERS, electrical niggles all count in the end.

What Alonso did with that defies logic. And full marks to him for that. But that really wouldnt surprise anyone would it? He has been doing that ever since he first left McLaren.

And yes, going to McLaren was a huge mistake. Of all teams, to go back to McLaren? It was a huge mistake and I fully blame Alonso for that, nobody else. It sucks to see him there. He deserves better but he is only to blame for this situation and lot of us saw it coming.

The only logical step up from Ferrari would have been Mercedes or RedBull. I had personally lost all faith in McLaren after 2012 and I always held firm belief that they are in steady decline. Hamilton leaving them was clear sign of things to come. He thought he knew better, he thought he can put faith in Honda. He is proved wrong. And its a tragedy.
Those PU issues may be so but you said "There has been no progress... Rare top 10 finishes." - 2016 proved that wrong. There was progress. It did happen you've chosen to ignore it

What Alonso did was a gamble. Everybody with a brain still intact can see that Alonso could have stayed at Ferrari and would still be a 2-time WDC. Absolutely nothing would have changed. Why not roll the dice and go for the McLaren-Honda gamble? Nobody back then could tell that it wasn't going to work. Staying at Ferrari this entire time would have achieved absolutely nothing.
He's now driving the same combination as his hero Ayrton Senna. He also gets to drive Senna's race cars on promotional days. I'm pretty sure Sebastian Vettel is the only other guy who gets paid $50 million and gets to drive his hero's cars on his days off

And on the 2nd half, don't be silly - going to Red Bull was never an option. They have a proven track record of promoting exciting young drivers and will never hire the likes of Alonso to upset their applecart. Why in the name of god do you think Alonso would ever have a shot at getting a seat there? And secondly, do you think he would have added to his 2 title tally driving a distant 2nd, sometimes 3rd, Red Bull?! If so then surely you must believe he's the greatest driver of all time if you think that at some point between 2015-16 he could use a Red Bull to overhaul the Mercs!
In 2014 Ferrari were negotiating with Alonso to extend his contract until 2018/19, one or the other, if Alonso had signed the new contract then he presently would be leading the WDC.
He led the WDC in a Ferrari before. Leading for a period of time isn't enough. There's a long way to go this year
The previous years he lead in an inferior car though, this year he wouldn't have had that disadvantage.

In respect to the thread title it has to rank as one of the worse career decisions.
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Re: Worst driver career decisions

Post by pokerman »

lamo wrote:I am not sure if mentioned but Schumacher choosing to retire rather than face Kimi / force Massa to lose his seat is a pretty big one. I don't think we wanted to retire but Ferrari felt they needed to secure his replacement.
Schumacher couldn't make his mind up one way of the other that was the problem, his decision cost him 2 more titles and probably would have spared him the Mercedes debacle.
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Re: Worst driver career decisions

Post by lamo »

pokerman wrote:
lamo wrote:I am not sure if mentioned but Schumacher choosing to retire rather than face Kimi / force Massa to lose his seat is a pretty big one. I don't think we wanted to retire but Ferrari felt they needed to secure his replacement.
Schumacher couldn't make his mind up one way of the other that was the problem, his decision cost him 2 more titles and probably would have spared him the Mercedes debacle.
I agree, 2007 and 2008 would have been two of his easiest titles. 10+ wins in each

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Re: Worst driver career decisions

Post by mcdo »

pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:yes, but not good enough for McLaren or Honda. Its not just abotu PU failures but sudden loss of ERS, electrical niggles all count in the end.

What Alonso did with that defies logic. And full marks to him for that. But that really wouldnt surprise anyone would it? He has been doing that ever since he first left McLaren.

And yes, going to McLaren was a huge mistake. Of all teams, to go back to McLaren? It was a huge mistake and I fully blame Alonso for that, nobody else. It sucks to see him there. He deserves better but he is only to blame for this situation and lot of us saw it coming.

The only logical step up from Ferrari would have been Mercedes or RedBull. I had personally lost all faith in McLaren after 2012 and I always held firm belief that they are in steady decline. Hamilton leaving them was clear sign of things to come. He thought he knew better, he thought he can put faith in Honda. He is proved wrong. And its a tragedy.
Those PU issues may be so but you said "There has been no progress... Rare top 10 finishes." - 2016 proved that wrong. There was progress. It did happen you've chosen to ignore it

What Alonso did was a gamble. Everybody with a brain still intact can see that Alonso could have stayed at Ferrari and would still be a 2-time WDC. Absolutely nothing would have changed. Why not roll the dice and go for the McLaren-Honda gamble? Nobody back then could tell that it wasn't going to work. Staying at Ferrari this entire time would have achieved absolutely nothing.
He's now driving the same combination as his hero Ayrton Senna. He also gets to drive Senna's race cars on promotional days. I'm pretty sure Sebastian Vettel is the only other guy who gets paid $50 million and gets to drive his hero's cars on his days off

And on the 2nd half, don't be silly - going to Red Bull was never an option. They have a proven track record of promoting exciting young drivers and will never hire the likes of Alonso to upset their applecart. Why in the name of god do you think Alonso would ever have a shot at getting a seat there? And secondly, do you think he would have added to his 2 title tally driving a distant 2nd, sometimes 3rd, Red Bull?! If so then surely you must believe he's the greatest driver of all time if you think that at some point between 2015-16 he could use a Red Bull to overhaul the Mercs!
In 2014 Ferrari were negotiating with Alonso to extend his contract until 2018/19, one or the other, if Alonso had signed the new contract then he presently would be leading the WDC.
He led the WDC in a Ferrari before. Leading for a period of time isn't enough. There's a long way to go this year
The previous years he lead in an inferior car though, this year he wouldn't have had that disadvantage.

In respect to the thread title it has to rank as one of the worse career decisions.
He walked away 3 years ago. It's like saying Jenson Button made one of the worst career decisions leaving Brawn/Merc after 2009. 3 years later they were winning races again, then soon went and built probably the most dominant car of all time
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Re: Worst driver career decisions

Post by Rockie »

mcdo wrote: He walked away 3 years ago. It's like saying Jenson Button made one of the worst career decisions leaving Brawn/Merc after 2009. 3 years later they were winning races again, then soon went and built probably the most dominant car of all time
Button went to a better team and finished runner up in the championship before Mercedes won again not comparable to Alonso's situation!

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Re: Worst driver career decisions

Post by pokerman »

Rockie wrote:
mcdo wrote: He walked away 3 years ago. It's like saying Jenson Button made one of the worst career decisions leaving Brawn/Merc after 2009. 3 years later they were winning races again, then soon went and built probably the most dominant car of all time
Button went to a better team and finished runner up in the championship before Mercedes won again not comparable to Alonso's situation!
Yes indeed that was a good decision by Button and Button would have had to wait for 5 years for a title winning car not the 3 years that Alonso would have waited, plus like I say the contract was offered to Alonso in 2014 and quite a lucrative contract at that, Button would have had to go through at least one more contract negotiation.
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Re: Worst driver career decisions

Post by Lotus49 »

pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mcdo wrote: He walked away 3 years ago. It's like saying Jenson Button made one of the worst career decisions leaving Brawn/Merc after 2009. 3 years later they were winning races again, then soon went and built probably the most dominant car of all time
Button went to a better team and finished runner up in the championship before Mercedes won again not comparable to Alonso's situation!
Yes indeed that was a good decision by Button and Button would have had to wait for 5 years for a title winning car not the 3 years that Alonso would have waited, plus like I say the contract was offered to Alonso in 2014 and quite a lucrative contract at that, Button would have had to go through at least one more contract negotiation.
What other top driver do you think would still be at a team and extend past 7 seasons if they hadn't been given the best car in the 5 years they'd already been there and were 4th best team when they were asking you to extend beyond the two years you already had left?.

Personally I don't think he was ever extending so Ferrari getting it right in what would have been his 8th season is a little bit of a stretch to say he's missed out.

The gamble failed because of what McHonda didn't do rather than what Ferrari did do 3 seasons later. So in terms of career decisions it can still make the cut for worst decisions.

But the focus shouldn't be on the Ferrari part really, he was absolutely right that they wouldn't catch Mercedes for the remainder of his contract. But he was absolutely wrong that McHonda may be the best within those 2 years but either way would be the ones to catch them first.
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Re: Worst driver career decisions

Post by pokerman »

Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mcdo wrote: He walked away 3 years ago. It's like saying Jenson Button made one of the worst career decisions leaving Brawn/Merc after 2009. 3 years later they were winning races again, then soon went and built probably the most dominant car of all time
Button went to a better team and finished runner up in the championship before Mercedes won again not comparable to Alonso's situation!
Yes indeed that was a good decision by Button and Button would have had to wait for 5 years for a title winning car not the 3 years that Alonso would have waited, plus like I say the contract was offered to Alonso in 2014 and quite a lucrative contract at that, Button would have had to go through at least one more contract negotiation.
What other top driver do you think would still be at a team and extend past 7 seasons if they hadn't been given the best car in the 5 years they'd already been there and were 4th best team when they were asking you to extend beyond the two years you already had left?.

Personally I don't think he was ever extending so Ferrari getting it right in what would have been his 8th season is a little bit of a stretch to say he's missed out.

The gamble failed because of what McHonda didn't do rather than what Ferrari did do 3 seasons later. So in terms of career decisions it can still make the cut for worst decisions.

But the focus shouldn't be on the Ferrari part really, he was absolutely right that they wouldn't catch Mercedes for the remainder of his contract. But he was absolutely wrong that McHonda may be the best within those 2 years but either way would be the ones to catch them first.
Well the contract that Alonso turned down at Ferrari was then basically given to Vettel, Vettel obviously didn't see Ferrari as being the lost cause that Alonso did, so if we say that Vettel's decision was inspired then the opposite has to be said of Alonso.
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Re: Worst driver career decisions

Post by Lotus49 »

pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mcdo wrote: He walked away 3 years ago. It's like saying Jenson Button made one of the worst career decisions leaving Brawn/Merc after 2009. 3 years later they were winning races again, then soon went and built probably the most dominant car of all time
Button went to a better team and finished runner up in the championship before Mercedes won again not comparable to Alonso's situation!
Yes indeed that was a good decision by Button and Button would have had to wait for 5 years for a title winning car not the 3 years that Alonso would have waited, plus like I say the contract was offered to Alonso in 2014 and quite a lucrative contract at that, Button would have had to go through at least one more contract negotiation.
What other top driver do you think would still be at a team and extend past 7 seasons if they hadn't been given the best car in the 5 years they'd already been there and were 4th best team when they were asking you to extend beyond the two years you already had left?.

Personally I don't think he was ever extending so Ferrari getting it right in what would have been his 8th season is a little bit of a stretch to say he's missed out.

The gamble failed because of what McHonda didn't do rather than what Ferrari did do 3 seasons later. So in terms of career decisions it can still make the cut for worst decisions.

But the focus shouldn't be on the Ferrari part really, he was absolutely right that they wouldn't catch Mercedes for the remainder of his contract. But he was absolutely wrong that McHonda may be the best within those 2 years but either way would be the ones to catch them first.
Well the contract that Alonso turned down at Ferrari was then basically given to Vettel, Vettel obviously didn't see Ferrari as being the lost cause that Alonso did, so if we say that Vettel's decision was inspired then the opposite has to be said of Alonso.
Seb had time on his side,a lot of recent success and not 5 seasons of frustrations already under his belt so obviously they looked at it very differently.

Alonso would have been looking at it like McHonda had two bites of the cherry he thought he wouldn't get at Ferrari because they were too far away(2015/16) and he needs all the chances he can get at his age so it's a very different viewpoint.

He'd already showed his faith in 2011 when he extended during a poor season and I don't think he was ever going to make that same mistake again. There is good reason Seb and Lewis run down their contracts even when sitting in beasts of cars.

In typical Alonso fashion this one wouldn't have been the mistake of course but it's very easy saying that now. Even last November it didn't look like Ferrari would be the one to catch Mercedes first never mind Autumn 2014 when they were 4th in the WCC and thought to be locked in to a bad design because of the token system.
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Re: Worst driver career decisions

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pokerman wrote:Well the contract that Alonso turned down at Ferrari was then basically given to Vettel, Vettel obviously didn't see Ferrari as being the lost cause that Alonso did, so if we say that Vettel's decision was inspired then the opposite has to be said of Alonso.
Who on earth says Vettel's decision was inspired?

He went to Ferrari because he wanted a chance to race at the same team his hero raced for. I haven't heard anybody claim that Vettel had advance knowledge that Ferrari would become more competitive, and I frankly doubt it entered into his decision-making process. Vettel went to Ferrari because it is Ferrari, not because he thought his chances were better there than at Red Bull.
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Re: Worst driver career decisions

Post by pokerman »

Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Button went to a better team and finished runner up in the championship before Mercedes won again not comparable to Alonso's situation!
Yes indeed that was a good decision by Button and Button would have had to wait for 5 years for a title winning car not the 3 years that Alonso would have waited, plus like I say the contract was offered to Alonso in 2014 and quite a lucrative contract at that, Button would have had to go through at least one more contract negotiation.
What other top driver do you think would still be at a team and extend past 7 seasons if they hadn't been given the best car in the 5 years they'd already been there and were 4th best team when they were asking you to extend beyond the two years you already had left?.

Personally I don't think he was ever extending so Ferrari getting it right in what would have been his 8th season is a little bit of a stretch to say he's missed out.

The gamble failed because of what McHonda didn't do rather than what Ferrari did do 3 seasons later. So in terms of career decisions it can still make the cut for worst decisions.

But the focus shouldn't be on the Ferrari part really, he was absolutely right that they wouldn't catch Mercedes for the remainder of his contract. But he was absolutely wrong that McHonda may be the best within those 2 years but either way would be the ones to catch them first.
Well the contract that Alonso turned down at Ferrari was then basically given to Vettel, Vettel obviously didn't see Ferrari as being the lost cause that Alonso did, so if we say that Vettel's decision was inspired then the opposite has to be said of Alonso.
Seb had time on his side,a lot of recent success and not 5 seasons of frustrations already under his belt so obviously they looked at it very differently.

Alonso would have been looking at it like McHonda had two bites of the cherry he thought he wouldn't get at Ferrari because they were too far away(2015/16) and he needs all the chances he can get at his age so it's a very different viewpoint.

He'd already showed his faith in 2011 when he extended during a poor season and I don't think he was ever going to make that same mistake again. There is good reason Seb and Lewis run down their contracts even when sitting in beasts of cars.

In typical Alonso fashion this one wouldn't have been the mistake of course but it's very easy saying that now. Even last November it didn't look like Ferrari would be the one to catch Mercedes first never mind Autumn 2014 when they were 4th in the WCC and thought to be locked in to a bad design because of the token system.
I see your point in Vettel being younger and being able to wait longer for success at Ferrari rather than Alonso who had been let down by Ferrari for several years, but do you really think that Vettel had it in mind that it might take 4 or 5 years for success to come at Ferrari, this a driver that had given thought to quitting F1 in 2014 one year after 4 consecutive titles because his situation was no longer competitive?

The reality is that both Vettel and Alonso signed 3 year contracts, that's the time line they had for success, Ferrari delivered and McLaren Honda failed.

I don't see why Mclaren Honda were going to produce a Mercedes beating car, McLaren have not won a title since 2008 and produced poor cars in 2013 and 2014, there seemed to be a lot of belief or hope that Honda were going to produce a monster of an engine?

In terms of worse career decisions Alonso leaving Ferrari for McLaren is going to rank up there as one of the worse.
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Re: Worst driver career decisions

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:Well the contract that Alonso turned down at Ferrari was then basically given to Vettel, Vettel obviously didn't see Ferrari as being the lost cause that Alonso did, so if we say that Vettel's decision was inspired then the opposite has to be said of Alonso.
Who on earth says Vettel's decision was inspired?

He went to Ferrari because he wanted a chance to race at the same team his hero raced for. I haven't heard anybody claim that Vettel had advance knowledge that Ferrari would become more competitive, and I frankly doubt it entered into his decision-making process. Vettel went to Ferrari because it is Ferrari, not because he thought his chances were better there than at Red Bull.
As I've already mentioned Vettel is not in F1 just to make up the numbers.
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Re: Worst driver career decisions

Post by Lotus49 »

pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote: Yes indeed that was a good decision by Button and Button would have had to wait for 5 years for a title winning car not the 3 years that Alonso would have waited, plus like I say the contract was offered to Alonso in 2014 and quite a lucrative contract at that, Button would have had to go through at least one more contract negotiation.
What other top driver do you think would still be at a team and extend past 7 seasons if they hadn't been given the best car in the 5 years they'd already been there and were 4th best team when they were asking you to extend beyond the two years you already had left?.

Personally I don't think he was ever extending so Ferrari getting it right in what would have been his 8th season is a little bit of a stretch to say he's missed out.

The gamble failed because of what McHonda didn't do rather than what Ferrari did do 3 seasons later. So in terms of career decisions it can still make the cut for worst decisions.

But the focus shouldn't be on the Ferrari part really, he was absolutely right that they wouldn't catch Mercedes for the remainder of his contract. But he was absolutely wrong that McHonda may be the best within those 2 years but either way would be the ones to catch them first.
Well the contract that Alonso turned down at Ferrari was then basically given to Vettel, Vettel obviously didn't see Ferrari as being the lost cause that Alonso did, so if we say that Vettel's decision was inspired then the opposite has to be said of Alonso.
Seb had time on his side,a lot of recent success and not 5 seasons of frustrations already under his belt so obviously they looked at it very differently.

Alonso would have been looking at it like McHonda had two bites of the cherry he thought he wouldn't get at Ferrari because they were too far away(2015/16) and he needs all the chances he can get at his age so it's a very different viewpoint.

He'd already showed his faith in 2011 when he extended during a poor season and I don't think he was ever going to make that same mistake again. There is good reason Seb and Lewis run down their contracts even when sitting in beasts of cars.

In typical Alonso fashion this one wouldn't have been the mistake of course but it's very easy saying that now. Even last November it didn't look like Ferrari would be the one to catch Mercedes first never mind Autumn 2014 when they were 4th in the WCC and thought to be locked in to a bad design because of the token system.
I see your point in Vettel being younger and being able to wait longer for success at Ferrari rather than Alonso who had been let down by Ferrari for several years, but do you really think that Vettel had it in mind that it might take 4 or 5 years for success to come at Ferrari, this a driver that had given thought to quitting F1 in 2014 one year after 4 consecutive titles because his situation was no longer competitive?

The reality is that both Vettel and Alonso signed 3 year contracts, that's the time line they had for success, Ferrari delivered and McLaren Honda failed.

I don't see why Mclaren Honda were going to produce a Mercedes beating car, McLaren have not won a title since 2008 and produced poor cars in 2013 and 2014, there seemed to be a lot of belief or hope that Honda were going to produce a monster of an engine?

In terms of worse career decisions Alonso leaving Ferrari for McLaren is going to rank up there as one of the worse.
No I don't think Seb thought it would take as long as Alonso thought but then he wouldn't have known what Alonso knew. And to be fair to Alonso in that part of the gamble he was right that it wouldn't come before his contract ran out so the possibility of McHonda could give him 2 shots at the WDC that he correctly thought Ferrari couldn't. But Honda bombed. Badly.

The part of the gamble that failed was thinking regardless of what happens in those 2 years McHonda would still catch Mercedes first.

He was very wrong about that so I do think it qualifies for the thread in that regard but it's the contract extension I don't think ever happens so I don't think he'd be benefiting from this Ferrari or threw it away.

Their was a fair old hype about Honda yeah. People thought starting late was an advantage. There was reports of them hitting Mercedes output on dynos,Ron was dribbling about it calling it a jewel. The split turbo was being given the credit for Mercedes success and Honda said they had done it too. They dominated the last Turbo era. Prod was coming.

All laughable with hindsight but when you add in everyone thought Ferrari were screwed and locked in to a bad design because of the token system and they were behind Renault never mind Mercedes then there was plenty of people who thought it was a good move on paper.

Then in typical Alonsoesque luck Honda bombed in the AD test,Allison found the loophole which started in season development and brought about the demise of the token system and Mahle approached Ferrari with TJI.

And here we are.
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
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Exediron
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Re: Worst driver career decisions

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pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:Well the contract that Alonso turned down at Ferrari was then basically given to Vettel, Vettel obviously didn't see Ferrari as being the lost cause that Alonso did, so if we say that Vettel's decision was inspired then the opposite has to be said of Alonso.
Who on earth says Vettel's decision was inspired?

He went to Ferrari because he wanted a chance to race at the same team his hero raced for. I haven't heard anybody claim that Vettel had advance knowledge that Ferrari would become more competitive, and I frankly doubt it entered into his decision-making process. Vettel went to Ferrari because it is Ferrari, not because he thought his chances were better there than at Red Bull.
As I've already mentioned Vettel is not in F1 just to make up the numbers.
That's not really an answer, and no, I don't think he is. But driving for his dream team isn't just 'making up the numbers'. For Vettel, driving for Ferrari is something much more special than driving for any other team, and considering that part of the Schumacher legend is that he needed to build the team up around himself, I think Vettel was entirely alright with the idea of not having instant gratification.

You still haven't given any example of someone thinking Vettel's choice was inspired. Although there has grown some sort of myth about Lewis knowing Mercedes would be dominant when he changed teams, I've yet to see any indication of the same about Vettel.
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