planetf1.com

Zoue wrote:

Teddy007 wrote:

mds wrote:

Warheart01 wrote: If the roles were different between Ricciardo and Vettel in 2014, say Vettel won the 3 races and outqualified Ricciardo convincingly (how is Vettel still considered one of the best qualifiers btw? Even Kimi beat him...). Do you think he would have left then?

Almost certainly. It was pretty clear that the RBR wasn't going to win anything meaningful anytime soon. Having won four WDC titles, what use was there in staying? Do you really think that after all that, his purpose in F1 had suddenly become "beating Daniel Ricciardo"? Of course not.

Almost certainly by your own view, I completely disagree. A driver tends to move on to a known better car or if he's unhappy. It wasn't Ferrari winning those 3 races it was RBR but it was the wrong driver. If Vettel had won those 3 races and given a Merc a run for their money a few times in a season he would have been happy. There was no promise that Ferrari would be back to winning ways and let's face it you can tell by his reaction that he's surprised that they can this season. You look at every front runner driver who left a team, they either leave for a better car or they leave because something isn't right on the "happiness factor". Alonso leaving Ferrari, Lewis leaving Mclaren, Kimi leaving and returning.

The majority of top drivers in the last 15 years all left for the same reasons, they either left for a better package or they fell out in some way. If Seb had won those races he would have been number 1 at RBR, happier for getting great results - instead he didn't and wasn't happy. A persons attitude towards everything changes and he wasn't happy at being beaten by Ric. Who would? You've won a few titles, also dominated your team mate for a few years and a young rookie comes along (sounds familiar?) and beats you.

...or if a driver thinks future prospects elsewhere are better. There is a body of opinion that being in a works team gives a much greater chance of success than being a customer. Vettel may well have been thinking ahead. And don't underestimate the allure of joining Ferrari and helping bring it back to glory. That name still holds a special fascination for many a driver.

Additionally, Horner said that Vettel had lost some motivation after winning four titles. A desire to start afresh, taking the above into account, shouldn't be discounted, either.

Are you sure about that I thought that Horner said that Vettel was unhappy with the direction the cars had taken?

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

Teddy007 wrote:

mds wrote:

Warheart01 wrote: If the roles were different between Ricciardo and Vettel in 2014, say Vettel won the 3 races and outqualified Ricciardo convincingly (how is Vettel still considered one of the best qualifiers btw? Even Kimi beat him...). Do you think he would have left then?

Almost certainly. It was pretty clear that the RBR wasn't going to win anything meaningful anytime soon. Having won four WDC titles, what use was there in staying? Do you really think that after all that, his purpose in F1 had suddenly become "beating Daniel Ricciardo"? Of course not.

Almost certainly by your own view, I completely disagree. A driver tends to move on to a known better car or if he's unhappy. It wasn't Ferrari winning those 3 races it was RBR but it was the wrong driver. If Vettel had won those 3 races and given a Merc a run for their money a few times in a season he would have been happy. There was no promise that Ferrari would be back to winning ways and let's face it you can tell by his reaction that he's surprised that they can this season. You look at every front runner driver who left a team, they either leave for a better car or they leave because something isn't right on the "happiness factor". Alonso leaving Ferrari, Lewis leaving Mclaren, Kimi leaving and returning.

The majority of top drivers in the last 15 years all left for the same reasons, they either left for a better package or they fell out in some way. If Seb had won those races he would have been number 1 at RBR, happier for getting great results - instead he didn't and wasn't happy. A persons attitude towards everything changes and he wasn't happy at being beaten by Ric. Who would? You've won a few titles, also dominated your team mate for a few years and a young rookie comes along (sounds familiar?) and beats you.

...or if a driver thinks future prospects elsewhere are better. There is a body of opinion that being in a works team gives a much greater chance of success than being a customer. Vettel may well have been thinking ahead. And don't underestimate the allure of joining Ferrari and helping bring it back to glory. That name still holds a special fascination for many a driver.

Additionally, Horner said that Vettel had lost some motivation after winning four titles. A desire to start afresh, taking the above into account, shouldn't be discounted, either.

Are you sure about that I thought that Horner said that Vettel was unhappy with the direction the cars had taken?

he said that, too. It was a combination of things and I think he even said Vettel was contemplating whether or not to continue in F1 at all. Can't find the quote at the moment but I'm pretty sure it was posted on here recently. Might even have been by me but can't remember

GingerFurball wrote:

pokerman wrote:

mds wrote:

GingerFurball wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:
Bit harsh. You make it sound like he's been walking around the paddock just randomly putting down Ferrari. He's had his move to McLaren thrown in his face by the press, especially the Italian press including that female reporter that got in trouble for it, throughout that period and answered those baiting questions rather tamely and more importantly accurately at the time.

I'm pretty sure he congratulated them for this years car though. And as much as he doesn't mind slating his own team it would have been a bit extreme to respond to those "Do you regret leaving Ferrari now.." barbs with a big "Absolutely, Macca suck and Ferrari are the best, I'm a prat and I regret everything".

He can't win in that situation. I could understand Ferrari not wanting him back though fwiw, but more because he left his contract early because he lost faith in them which would rightly annoy some Ferrari personnel I would think.

Given Vettel got nowhere near winning either the 2015 or 2016 championship, Alonso hasn't exactly been proven wrong.

Well Alonso brings 6 tenths, he would surely be leading the championship with 3 wins to his name and battle until the end of the season.

You know it makes me wonder about the 2015 season and what Vettel was able to achieve whether Alonso ever thinks what he might have done?

I doubt it. In 2015 Vettel essentially repeated Alonso's 2011 and 2013 seasons. Won a couple of races but came nowhere near winning the title due to the title winner's dominance. Vettel's 2015 season proves that leaving Ferrari was the correct one at the time.

This season was supposed to be the payoff for all the sh*t Alonso put up with in 2015 and 2016. New aero rules that McLaren essentially came up with and they were supposed to be reaping the benefit of Honda being back in F1 by now.

Alonso would have been winning races and racking up podiums, in my book that's got to be loads better than what he had, he even had the indignity of scoring less points than Button.

Alonso for me comes across as someone that always has to be seen as being in front of the game, in 2014 he spoke in terms that he could drive wherever he chose to drive, this probably around the time that there were rumours of him trading places with Hamilton.

Pride would never let him say he should have stayed at Ferrari, the reasons given were never proved valid, saying that Ferrari would never beat Mercedes were true in the short term but then again no team was going to beat Mercedes but Ferrari actually made the better fist of it of all the teams.

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

Teddy007 wrote:

mds wrote:
Almost certainly. It was pretty clear that the RBR wasn't going to win anything meaningful anytime soon. Having won four WDC titles, what use was there in staying? Do you really think that after all that, his purpose in F1 had suddenly become "beating Daniel Ricciardo"? Of course not.

Almost certainly by your own view, I completely disagree. A driver tends to move on to a known better car or if he's unhappy. It wasn't Ferrari winning those 3 races it was RBR but it was the wrong driver. If Vettel had won those 3 races and given a Merc a run for their money a few times in a season he would have been happy. There was no promise that Ferrari would be back to winning ways and let's face it you can tell by his reaction that he's surprised that they can this season. You look at every front runner driver who left a team, they either leave for a better car or they leave because something isn't right on the "happiness factor". Alonso leaving Ferrari, Lewis leaving Mclaren, Kimi leaving and returning.

The majority of top drivers in the last 15 years all left for the same reasons, they either left for a better package or they fell out in some way. If Seb had won those races he would have been number 1 at RBR, happier for getting great results - instead he didn't and wasn't happy. A persons attitude towards everything changes and he wasn't happy at being beaten by Ric. Who would? You've won a few titles, also dominated your team mate for a few years and a young rookie comes along (sounds familiar?) and beats you.

...or if a driver thinks future prospects elsewhere are better. There is a body of opinion that being in a works team gives a much greater chance of success than being a customer. Vettel may well have been thinking ahead. And don't underestimate the allure of joining Ferrari and helping bring it back to glory. That name still holds a special fascination for many a driver.

Additionally, Horner said that Vettel had lost some motivation after winning four titles. A desire to start afresh, taking the above into account, shouldn't be discounted, either.

Are you sure about that I thought that Horner said that Vettel was unhappy with the direction the cars had taken?

he said that, too. It was a combination of things and I think he even said Vettel was contemplating whether or not to continue in F1 at all. Can't find the quote at the moment but I'm pretty sure it was posted on here recently. Might even have been by me but can't remember

Yeah I think this losing motivation before the 2014 cars had even been built maybe pushing the boat out a bit?

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

Teddy007 wrote: Almost certainly by your own view, I completely disagree. A driver tends to move on to a known better car or if he's unhappy. It wasn't Ferrari winning those 3 races it was RBR but it was the wrong driver. If Vettel had won those 3 races and given a Merc a run for their money a few times in a season he would have been happy. There was no promise that Ferrari would be back to winning ways and let's face it you can tell by his reaction that he's surprised that they can this season. You look at every front runner driver who left a team, they either leave for a better car or they leave because something isn't right on the "happiness factor". Alonso leaving Ferrari, Lewis leaving Mclaren, Kimi leaving and returning.

The majority of top drivers in the last 15 years all left for the same reasons, they either left for a better package or they fell out in some way. If Seb had won those races he would have been number 1 at RBR, happier for getting great results - instead he didn't and wasn't happy. A persons attitude towards everything changes and he wasn't happy at being beaten by Ric. Who would? You've won a few titles, also dominated your team mate for a few years and a young rookie comes along (sounds familiar?) and beats you.

...or if a driver thinks future prospects elsewhere are better. There is a body of opinion that being in a works team gives a much greater chance of success than being a customer. Vettel may well have been thinking ahead. And don't underestimate the allure of joining Ferrari and helping bring it back to glory. That name still holds a special fascination for many a driver.

Additionally, Horner said that Vettel had lost some motivation after winning four titles. A desire to start afresh, taking the above into account, shouldn't be discounted, either.

Are you sure about that I thought that Horner said that Vettel was unhappy with the direction the cars had taken?

he said that, too. It was a combination of things and I think he even said Vettel was contemplating whether or not to continue in F1 at all. Can't find the quote at the moment but I'm pretty sure it was posted on here recently. Might even have been by me but can't remember

Yeah I think this losing motivation before the 2014 cars had even been built maybe pushing the boat out a bit?

Don't follow?

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote: ...or if a driver thinks future prospects elsewhere are better. There is a body of opinion that being in a works team gives a much greater chance of success than being a customer. Vettel may well have been thinking ahead. And don't underestimate the allure of joining Ferrari and helping bring it back to glory. That name still holds a special fascination for many a driver.

Additionally, Horner said that Vettel had lost some motivation after winning four titles. A desire to start afresh, taking the above into account, shouldn't be discounted, either.

Are you sure about that I thought that Horner said that Vettel was unhappy with the direction the cars had taken?

he said that, too. It was a combination of things and I think he even said Vettel was contemplating whether or not to continue in F1 at all. Can't find the quote at the moment but I'm pretty sure it was posted on here recently. Might even have been by me but can't remember

Yeah I think this losing motivation before the 2014 cars had even been built maybe pushing the boat out a bit?

Don't follow?

You said Vettel lost motivation after winning 4 titles which means he lost it even before the winter testing of 2014.

The reality is that he lost motivation half way through the season, which I guess you can put down to a number of things which I will not get into, but I think winning 4 titles would be quite low on that list and I don't believe it's a reason that Horner brought forward?

pokerman wrote:You said Vettel lost motivation after winning 4 titles which means he lost it even before the winter testing of 2014.

The reality is that he lost motivation half way through the season, which I guess you can put down to a number of things which I will not get into, but I think winning 4 titles would be quite low on that list and I don't believe it's a reason that Horner brought forward?

I typed out a long reply to this, but the forum gave me one of its signature HTTP errors and I lost it all.

Short version: Vettel seems to have a pattern of driving worse in years when he can't challenge for the title. In 2015 he dominated Raikkonen when he had a shot, whereas in 2016 when it was clear he didn't he was much worse in comparison. Now in 2017 he's dominant again. I think there's a very good reason to think Vettel doesn't produce at 100% when he doesn't sense a chance at the world championship, which would have been the case in 2014. Even worse that year, since he'd had 5 straight years of being in contention.

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote: Are you sure about that I thought that Horner said that Vettel was unhappy with the direction the cars had taken?

he said that, too. It was a combination of things and I think he even said Vettel was contemplating whether or not to continue in F1 at all. Can't find the quote at the moment but I'm pretty sure it was posted on here recently. Might even have been by me but can't remember

Yeah I think this losing motivation before the 2014 cars had even been built maybe pushing the boat out a bit?

Don't follow?

You said Vettel lost motivation after winning 4 titles which means he lost it even before the winter testing of 2014.

The reality is that he lost motivation half way through the season, which I guess you can put down to a number of things which I will not get into, but I think winning 4 titles would be quite low on that list and I don't believe it's a reason that Horner brought forward?

I think you are possibly taking things a bit too literally. I didn't mean he lost his motivation the morning after he got his title. But coming from a high of challenging for titles for five consecutive years to being in effectively a midfield car would probably deflate almost any driver.

I think Horner did say it, but it's not important enough for me to trawl through he internet for again. Not sure why you are nit-picking this specific point?

Exediron wrote:

pokerman wrote:You said Vettel lost motivation after winning 4 titles which means he lost it even before the winter testing of 2014.

The reality is that he lost motivation half way through the season, which I guess you can put down to a number of things which I will not get into, but I think winning 4 titles would be quite low on that list and I don't believe it's a reason that Horner brought forward?

I typed out a long reply to this, but the forum gave me one of its signature HTTP errors and I lost it all.

Short version: Vettel seems to have a pattern of driving worse in years when he can't challenge for the title. In 2015 he dominated Raikkonen when he had a shot, whereas in 2016 when it was clear he didn't he was much worse in comparison. Now in 2017 he's dominant again. I think there's a very good reason to think Vettel doesn't produce at 100% when he doesn't sense a chance at the world championship, which would have been the case in 2014. Even worse that year, since he'd had 5 straight years of being in contention.

Yeah I think there is some merit in that but I also think it's a bit over simplified because Vettel hates to get beaten, the beaten he took from Ricciardo he would not have liked at all, and that wasn't just down to I can't challenge for the titles so why bother, he clearly was struggling for performance.

So the 4 titles thing is immaterial really in your thinking, it's more of I don't have a competitive car so I can't give of my best which generally speaking is quite a poor attitude to have especially as he still had the close to equal second best car.

Even in 2016 he still had the close to equal second best car but still we say he couldn't motivate himself, to an extent it may be a bit of a cop out, Vettel was motivated enough to swear at officials and attack other drivers verbally after all.

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote: he said that, too. It was a combination of things and I think he even said Vettel was contemplating whether or not to continue in F1 at all. Can't find the quote at the moment but I'm pretty sure it was posted on here recently. Might even have been by me but can't remember

Yeah I think this losing motivation before the 2014 cars had even been built maybe pushing the boat out a bit?

Don't follow?

You said Vettel lost motivation after winning 4 titles which means he lost it even before the winter testing of 2014.

The reality is that he lost motivation half way through the season, which I guess you can put down to a number of things which I will not get into, but I think winning 4 titles would be quite low on that list and I don't believe it's a reason that Horner brought forward?

I think you are possibly taking things a bit too literally. I didn't mean he lost his motivation the morning after he got his title. But coming from a high of challenging for titles for five consecutive years to being in effectively a midfield car would probably deflate almost any driver.

I think Horner did say it, but it's not important enough for me to trawl through he internet for again. Not sure why you are nit-picking this specific point?

Vettel being in the equal second best car is your version of him being in a midfield car?

Horner's references to 2014 was about Vettel not enjoying driving the car, he was clearly struggling, but your version is that he simply wasn't trying.

Exediron wrote:

pokerman wrote:You said Vettel lost motivation after winning 4 titles which means he lost it even before the winter testing of 2014.

The reality is that he lost motivation half way through the season, which I guess you can put down to a number of things which I will not get into, but I think winning 4 titles would be quite low on that list and I don't believe it's a reason that Horner brought forward?

I typed out a long reply to this, but the forum gave me one of its signature HTTP errors and I lost it all.

Short version: Vettel seems to have a pattern of driving worse in years when he can't challenge for the title. In 2015 he dominated Raikkonen when he had a shot, whereas in 2016 when it was clear he didn't he was much worse in comparison. Now in 2017 he's dominant again. I think there's a very good reason to think Vettel doesn't produce at 100% when he doesn't sense a chance at the world championship, which would have been the case in 2014. Even worse that year, since he'd had 5 straight years of being in contention.

You do realize that there is a massive chicken/egg aspect of what you've said here I hope...

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote: Yeah I think this losing motivation before the 2014 cars had even been built maybe pushing the boat out a bit?

Don't follow?

You said Vettel lost motivation after winning 4 titles which means he lost it even before the winter testing of 2014.

The reality is that he lost motivation half way through the season, which I guess you can put down to a number of things which I will not get into, but I think winning 4 titles would be quite low on that list and I don't believe it's a reason that Horner brought forward?

I think you are possibly taking things a bit too literally. I didn't mean he lost his motivation the morning after he got his title. But coming from a high of challenging for titles for five consecutive years to being in effectively a midfield car would probably deflate almost any driver.

I think Horner did say it, but it's not important enough for me to trawl through he internet for again. Not sure why you are nit-picking this specific point?

Vettel being in the equal second best car is your version of him being in a midfield car?

Horner's references to 2014 was about Vettel not enjoying driving the car, he was clearly struggling, but your version is that he simply wasn't trying.

Oh, do try and read properly, for goodness sake. I said effectively a midfield car. It's no point having the 2nd or 3rd best car when the best car is wholly out of reach, barring accidents or misfortune. Any possibility for wins were the result of scraps thrown to them from Mercedes, which goes to the point I was making

Who are we talking about again?

Exediron wrote:

pokerman wrote:You said Vettel lost motivation after winning 4 titles which means he lost it even before the winter testing of 2014.

The reality is that he lost motivation half way through the season, which I guess you can put down to a number of things which I will not get into, but I think winning 4 titles would be quite low on that list and I don't believe it's a reason that Horner brought forward?

I typed out a long reply to this, but the forum gave me one of its signature HTTP errors and I lost it all.

Short version: Vettel seems to have a pattern of driving worse in years when he can't challenge for the title. In 2015 he dominated Raikkonen when he had a shot, whereas in 2016 when it was clear he didn't he was much worse in comparison. Now in 2017 he's dominant again. I think there's a very good reason to think Vettel doesn't produce at 100% when he doesn't sense a chance at the world championship, which would have been the case in 2014. Even worse that year, since he'd had 5 straight years of being in contention.

Vettel performs best in odd numbered years and Alonso performs best in even numbered years.

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote: Don't follow?

You said Vettel lost motivation after winning 4 titles which means he lost it even before the winter testing of 2014.

The reality is that he lost motivation half way through the season, which I guess you can put down to a number of things which I will not get into, but I think winning 4 titles would be quite low on that list and I don't believe it's a reason that Horner brought forward?

I think you are possibly taking things a bit too literally. I didn't mean he lost his motivation the morning after he got his title. But coming from a high of challenging for titles for five consecutive years to being in effectively a midfield car would probably deflate almost any driver.

I think Horner did say it, but it's not important enough for me to trawl through he internet for again. Not sure why you are nit-picking this specific point?

Vettel being in the equal second best car is your version of him being in a midfield car?

Horner's references to 2014 was about Vettel not enjoying driving the car, he was clearly struggling, but your version is that he simply wasn't trying.

Oh, do try and read properly, for goodness sake. I said effectively a midfield car. It's no point having the 2nd or 3rd best car when the best car is wholly out of reach, barring accidents or misfortune. Any possibility for wins were the result of scraps thrown to them from Mercedes, which goes to the point I was making

Ok anything but having the best car is a midfield car for Vettel.

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote: You said Vettel lost motivation after winning 4 titles which means he lost it even before the winter testing of 2014.

The reality is that he lost motivation half way through the season, which I guess you can put down to a number of things which I will not get into, but I think winning 4 titles would be quite low on that list and I don't believe it's a reason that Horner brought forward?

I think you are possibly taking things a bit too literally. I didn't mean he lost his motivation the morning after he got his title. But coming from a high of challenging for titles for five consecutive years to being in effectively a midfield car would probably deflate almost any driver.

I think Horner did say it, but it's not important enough for me to trawl through he internet for again. Not sure why you are nit-picking this specific point?

Vettel being in the equal second best car is your version of him being in a midfield car?

Horner's references to 2014 was about Vettel not enjoying driving the car, he was clearly struggling, but your version is that he simply wasn't trying.

Oh, do try and read properly, for goodness sake. I said effectively a midfield car. It's no point having the 2nd or 3rd best car when the best car is wholly out of reach, barring accidents or misfortune. Any possibility for wins were the result of scraps thrown to them from Mercedes, which goes to the point I was making

Ok anything but having the best car is a midfield car for Vettel.

To be fair the Mercs W05-W07 were so dominant that they pretty much demoted everyone else to being no better than midfield.

I don't think you should really get so hung up about Zoue using the term "midfield". Even if you describe the RB10 as a "lower front-end car" or anything like it, what matters in this reasoning is that it was a car that came nowhere near to contending for the title.

sandman1347 wrote:

Exediron wrote:

pokerman wrote:You said Vettel lost motivation after winning 4 titles which means he lost it even before the winter testing of 2014.

The reality is that he lost motivation half way through the season, which I guess you can put down to a number of things which I will not get into, but I think winning 4 titles would be quite low on that list and I don't believe it's a reason that Horner brought forward?

I typed out a long reply to this, but the forum gave me one of its signature HTTP errors and I lost it all.

Short version: Vettel seems to have a pattern of driving worse in years when he can't challenge for the title. In 2015 he dominated Raikkonen when he had a shot, whereas in 2016 when it was clear he didn't he was much worse in comparison. Now in 2017 he's dominant again. I think there's a very good reason to think Vettel doesn't produce at 100% when he doesn't sense a chance at the world championship, which would have been the case in 2014. Even worse that year, since he'd had 5 straight years of being in contention.

You do realize that there is a massive chicken/egg aspect of what you've said here I hope...

I don't think anyone could have challenged for the title in the RB10 or SF16-H, so I don't really see the chicken and egg aspect that's supposedly at play here?

mds wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:I think you are possibly taking things a bit too literally. I didn't mean he lost his motivation the morning after he got his title. But coming from a high of challenging for titles for five consecutive years to being in effectively a midfield car would probably deflate almost any driver.

I think Horner did say it, but it's not important enough for me to trawl through he internet for again. Not sure why you are nit-picking this specific point?

Vettel being in the equal second best car is your version of him being in a midfield car?

Horner's references to 2014 was about Vettel not enjoying driving the car, he was clearly struggling, but your version is that he simply wasn't trying.

Oh, do try and read properly, for goodness sake. I said effectively a midfield car. It's no point having the 2nd or 3rd best car when the best car is wholly out of reach, barring accidents or misfortune. Any possibility for wins were the result of scraps thrown to them from Mercedes, which goes to the point I was making

Ok anything but having the best car is a midfield car for Vettel.

To be fair the Mercs W05-W07 were so dominant that they pretty much demoted everyone else to being no better than midfield.

I don't think you should really get so hung up about Zoue using the term "midfield". Even if you describe the RB10 as a "lower front-end car" or anything like it, what matters in this reasoning is that it was a car that came nowhere near to contending for the title.

Exactly this

mds wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

Exediron wrote:

pokerman wrote:You said Vettel lost motivation after winning 4 titles which means he lost it even before the winter testing of 2014.

The reality is that he lost motivation half way through the season, which I guess you can put down to a number of things which I will not get into, but I think winning 4 titles would be quite low on that list and I don't believe it's a reason that Horner brought forward?

I typed out a long reply to this, but the forum gave me one of its signature HTTP errors and I lost it all.

Short version: Vettel seems to have a pattern of driving worse in years when he can't challenge for the title. In 2015 he dominated Raikkonen when he had a shot, whereas in 2016 when it was clear he didn't he was much worse in comparison. Now in 2017 he's dominant again. I think there's a very good reason to think Vettel doesn't produce at 100% when he doesn't sense a chance at the world championship, which would have been the case in 2014. Even worse that year, since he'd had 5 straight years of being in contention.

You do realize that there is a massive chicken/egg aspect of what you've said here I hope...

I don't think anyone could have challenged for the title in the RB10 or SF16-H, so I don't really see the chicken and egg aspect that's supposedly at play here?

I think a lot of people would say that Vettel drove quite well in 2008 and drove quite poorly in 2010. The chicken/egg aspect is that driving better will generally lead to a higher chance of challenging for titles. Perhaps he drives better when the car is better but it's equally possible that he is simply not as adaptable as some other drivers and so his performance fluctuates somewhat based on how comfortable he is in the car.

sandman1347 wrote:

mds wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

Exediron wrote:

pokerman wrote:You said Vettel lost motivation after winning 4 titles which means he lost it even before the winter testing of 2014.

The reality is that he lost motivation half way through the season, which I guess you can put down to a number of things which I will not get into, but I think winning 4 titles would be quite low on that list and I don't believe it's a reason that Horner brought forward?

I typed out a long reply to this, but the forum gave me one of its signature HTTP errors and I lost it all.

Short version: Vettel seems to have a pattern of driving worse in years when he can't challenge for the title. In 2015 he dominated Raikkonen when he had a shot, whereas in 2016 when it was clear he didn't he was much worse in comparison. Now in 2017 he's dominant again. I think there's a very good reason to think Vettel doesn't produce at 100% when he doesn't sense a chance at the world championship, which would have been the case in 2014. Even worse that year, since he'd had 5 straight years of being in contention.

You do realize that there is a massive chicken/egg aspect of what you've said here I hope...

I don't think anyone could have challenged for the title in the RB10 or SF16-H, so I don't really see the chicken and egg aspect that's supposedly at play here?

I think a lot of people would say that Vettel drove quite well in 2008 and drove quite poorly in 2010. The chicken/egg aspect is that driving better will generally lead to a higher chance of challenging for titles. Perhaps he drives better when the car is better but it's equally possible that he is simply not as adaptable as some other drivers and so his performance fluctuates somewhat based on how comfortable he is in the car.

OK, in that sense. Yeah I could agree - but they seem to run together. Vettel seems to be comfortable in higher downforce cars, and the higher downforce cars have a better chance at contending

I think initially the 2014 cars had a lot less downforce than the 2013 cars, and on top of that the RB10 had to run low downforce configs in order to make up for the big shortcomings of the Renault PU. This could have contributed to his lesser performance.

mds wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote: I think you are possibly taking things a bit too literally. I didn't mean he lost his motivation the morning after he got his title. But coming from a high of challenging for titles for five consecutive years to being in effectively a midfield car would probably deflate almost any driver.

I think Horner did say it, but it's not important enough for me to trawl through he internet for again. Not sure why you are nit-picking this specific point?

Vettel being in the equal second best car is your version of him being in a midfield car?

Horner's references to 2014 was about Vettel not enjoying driving the car, he was clearly struggling, but your version is that he simply wasn't trying.

Oh, do try and read properly, for goodness sake. I said effectively a midfield car. It's no point having the 2nd or 3rd best car when the best car is wholly out of reach, barring accidents or misfortune. Any possibility for wins were the result of scraps thrown to them from Mercedes, which goes to the point I was making

Ok anything but having the best car is a midfield car for Vettel.

To be fair the Mercs W05-W07 were so dominant that they pretty much demoted everyone else to being no better than midfield.

I don't think you should really get so hung up about Zoue using the term "midfield". Even if you describe the RB10 as a "lower front-end car" or anything like it, what matters in this reasoning is that it was a car that came nowhere near to contending for the title.

The terminology is still wrong though, having the second best car in a field of 10/11 cars is not a midfield car regardless of whether it's a title contending car or not.

English is my third language yet I had no problems understanding exactly what Zoue meant by "effectively a midfiel car" in that context...

pokerman wrote:

mds wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote: Vettel being in the equal second best car is your version of him being in a midfield car?

Horner's references to 2014 was about Vettel not enjoying driving the car, he was clearly struggling, but your version is that he simply wasn't trying.

Oh, do try and read properly, for goodness sake. I said effectively a midfield car. It's no point having the 2nd or 3rd best car when the best car is wholly out of reach, barring accidents or misfortune. Any possibility for wins were the result of scraps thrown to them from Mercedes, which goes to the point I was making

Ok anything but having the best car is a midfield car for Vettel.

To be fair the Mercs W05-W07 were so dominant that they pretty much demoted everyone else to being no better than midfield.

I don't think you should really get so hung up about Zoue using the term "midfield". Even if you describe the RB10 as a "lower front-end car" or anything like it, what matters in this reasoning is that it was a car that came nowhere near to contending for the title.

The terminology is still wrong though, having the second best car in a field of 10/11 cars is not a midfield car regardless of whether it's a title contending car or not.

Either way, it will not determine the future of Kimi Raikkonen.

All we know is we don't know.

pokerman wrote:

mds wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote: Vettel being in the equal second best car is your version of him being in a midfield car?

Horner's references to 2014 was about Vettel not enjoying driving the car, he was clearly struggling, but your version is that he simply wasn't trying.

Oh, do try and read properly, for goodness sake. I said effectively a midfield car. It's no point having the 2nd or 3rd best car when the best car is wholly out of reach, barring accidents or misfortune. Any possibility for wins were the result of scraps thrown to them from Mercedes, which goes to the point I was making

Ok anything but having the best car is a midfield car for Vettel.

To be fair the Mercs W05-W07 were so dominant that they pretty much demoted everyone else to being no better than midfield.

I don't think you should really get so hung up about Zoue using the term "midfield". Even if you describe the RB10 as a "lower front-end car" or anything like it, what matters in this reasoning is that it was a car that came nowhere near to contending for the title.

The terminology is still wrong though, having the second best car in a field of 10/11 cars is not a midfield car regardless of whether it's a title contending car or not.

OK, then keep getting hung up on the term used instead of discussing the point you know is being made.

Poor form man.

Thought this thread was supposed about the "Ice Man" Kimi Raikkonen????

pokerman wrote: The terminology is still wrong though, having the second best car in a field of 10/11 cars is not a midfield car regardless of whether it's a title contending car or not.

I'm pretty sure you won't change your mind, but midfield isn't always an exact term that applies to the mathematical 'middle' of a bunch. Usually, the demarcations are clearer with two/three teams competing at the front, another two/three competing at the next level and the remaining fighting for scraps. But if the second best car is much closer to the third than the first (as was the case more often than not with Merc for the last few years), it's arguable that the midfield started with the second car. You win the dictionary argument though, I'll give you that, but linguistic accuracy wasn't the argument to begin with.

Back on point, Kimi seems to have finally found his sweet spot and I hope it continues. After struggling for the first few races, looked a genuine pole contender today. Top job.

F1nut wrote:Thought this thread was supposed about the "Ice Man" Kimi Raikkonen????

YEP, first they got talking Vettel now some grammatical stuff, or the definition or interpretation of a word and how is used.

It amazes me how we as fans that have never turn a wheel in anger, driving our Toyota Camry's think we know what a driver should do or not do. How when a certain German driver got beat by an Australian in a season we were calling for his head, now he is showing he is top class, where are those who knew for certain Vettel was a spent force? What now? We destroyed Massa as if we could do better, without REALLY knowing team politics and any other situation that could be affecting him. Then not satisfied with it, we get a hold of KIMI and questioned his motivation, repeated the ice cream jokes until not being funny any more started not being funny, just to say something "cool". Criticized his driving style, perceived lack of adapting to a car as if we knew what we are talking about, some here do not know how caster affects camber, the difference from bound and rebound, how the rear can affect the front, how one driver transfer weight on the same car vs his teammate, how difficult and daring can it be to get a tire in its optimum slip angle, keep it there and be fast while the track and the tire itself are always changing, variables that can make the same car behave totally different to another driver. We think if one is fast the other must be too, if they are on the same equipment, like if we were dealing with robots. The fact they make it look easy does not mean it is.

Then because we know so much, we create threads just to analyze what we don't have the tools to analyze, to decide what a driver should do with his life, the career he chose because of (hopefully) he loved it, drivers that came from unprivileged positions, work hard and made it, not some daddy's boys, we create these threads because we are certain he is slow because we have all the cards at hand and all the data to nail him in the cross and when it happens, well.....good riddance.

Some of us here should really go get in to a car/kart, drive it in anger, and when something happens that scares the soul out of your body, maybe, just maybe we will have a better understanding of what it takes to be fast, and maybe some will understand, at least the smart ones will, that going fast is not all about speed and times.

This dude here was an F1 champion, not because Hamilton and Alonso, because he scored the most points, he remains Ferrari last champion. Massa was almost one, Vettel is a 4 time Champion because of Vettel, not because of RB. They got to be in the position to be champions because they are good. Same as Alonso, who has been his worst enemy. If any of them decide to leave, let them be the owners of that time when it comes, be it because the are no longer competitive, or just old, or just fell out of love with racing. It is not our position to be questioning their talent, desire to be in F1.

chetan rao.

For me, the real awakening was ice karting. You have fun and drift thru the track but thats not the fastest way around. Its difficult but at the same time very hard. After half an hour my hands were so tired I just trembled. Its the matter of calculation and finding the best route around the track,specially the way around corners. The track owner said Kimi had been there. On the longer track. He had driven 2 laps behind the owner who had done 5000 laps around the track. The owner said,Kimi just looked how he drove,found the errors he makes just in two laps and then drove to the scenery. He said these guys are sharks. All of them. The track is in Levi where certain Fernando Alonso has also visited.

Oikarinen,former Ferrari engineer said,this tracks characteristics make the car oversteering,so its better for Kimi.But in no way it means Kimi sucks. He may be older,even drive in a different way as on his early years, but even at his "worse" he is amongst the best five drivers.
I just hope he isnt the victim of Ferraris "Hero" obsession.

Well said PRFAN and appletree, interesting anecdote about the ice track

Ups..yeah PRFAN I ment.

Good qualifying from Kimi today - looked like the old Ice Man for a bit. Maybe this is finally where his season takes a turn and he can actually hang with Vettel in the race?

From my calculations (and F1Fanatic's charts as well) his race pace simulation was well off Vettel, but hopefully they were running a different program. If not, that brings up an interesting oddity about Kimi in his current form: despite never being known as a qualifier, and having more fastest race laps than poles, he seems far more able to live with Vettel in qualifying than in the races. This despite Vettel having a reputation as a qualifying specialist...

Will be interesting to see if the pattern holds on Sunday.

I do not know why but Kimi has a history of doing well as the season goes on. It was same last year as well. He is getting better and better so hopefully he will be close to Vettel in points soon otherwise Ferrari might favor Vettel in second half of the season.

Mercedes-Benz wrote:I do not know why but Kimi has a history of doing well as the season goes on. It was same last year as well. He is getting better and better so hopefully he will be close to Vettel in points soon otherwise Ferrari might favor Vettel in second half of the season.

Yes i see Ferrari retaining Kimi as long as he keeps close to Vettel

trento wrote:

Mercedes-Benz wrote:I do not know why but Kimi has a history of doing well as the season goes on. It was same last year as well. He is getting better and better so hopefully he will be close to Vettel in points soon otherwise Ferrari might favor Vettel in second half of the season.

Yes i see Ferrari retaining Kimi as long as he keeps close to Vettel

He didn't really keep close to Vettel, though. Am I the only one disappointed in Kimi yesterday? He had no issues that he reported and faced no threats from behind. He should have kept pace with Vettel yesterday but finished the first stint some 5s behind. And, although he showed flashes of speed against both Bottas and Vettel in the second stint, he was unable to do it consistently, despite not having any issues or significant traffic, and still finished nearly 9s (excluding final lap) behind Vettel. He again put in the fastest lap of the race, which again raises the question as to why he was so inconsistent and why he couldn't keep up with his team mate. He should have been on his tail IMO.

It wasn't a terrible performance, but if Kimi was the lead driver in the Ferrari we'd be looking at another Mercedes walkover this year and nobody would be trying to claim the Ferrari was the better race car. I don't know how an ex-WDC and man formerly credited with the legend "fastest man in F1" may be happy with his performance on Sunday. If this is him performing to his best when he's comfortable with the car, then he can kiss any idea of a top step finish any given Sunday goodbye this year, unless misfortune befalls his competitors.

trento wrote:

Mercedes-Benz wrote:I do not know why but Kimi has a history of doing well as the season goes on. It was same last year as well. He is getting better and better so hopefully he will be close to Vettel in points soon otherwise Ferrari might favor Vettel in second half of the season.

Yes i see Ferrari retaining Kimi as long as he keeps close to Vettel

I still doubt as Ferrari will also now look at the age factor.

It was good to see Kimi on the podium but don't know if his form will continue. If Ferrari remain strong as Mercedes for years to come, then they would want to concentrate on the WCC title as well & that's only possible when the 2nd driver also is consistently scoring good results.

Ferrari have resigned Kimi before whilst performing at the same level as he is now. I don't really see why they wouldn't do it again. They can hardly be surprised by his performances. They pretty much tally up with what we have seen the last 3 seasons.

mikeyg123 wrote:Ferrari have resigned Kimi before whilst performing at the same level as he is now. I don't really see why they wouldn't do it again. They can hardly be surprised by his performances. They pretty much tally up with what we have seen the last 3 seasons.

Yes, but the last time they weren't fighting for the WCC.

I think Ferrari will hold off a while on the contract decision and test the waters. If Kimi is unable to consistently get in front of at least the slower Mercedes, he's costing them a shot at the WCC and I can't see how they re-sign him. If he keeps splitting the Mercs and particularly takes points off Hamilton now and again, he's doing enough and they might value the stability of the driver lineup over a little bit of outright pace.

This is the first race so far where Kimi finished right behind Vettel; Seb has beaten at least one of the Mercs at every race, whereas Kimi has only done so twice - and when the Mercs run well he hasn't beaten either of them yet. At present form, Vettel could win the WDC and Mercedes will still take the WCC. That's a very different situation from 2014-16, where there wasn't a real chance of the title.

Although to be perfectly honest, I can't imagine why they re-signed him after 2014 and 2015, so who knows what they'll do. They obviously have different expectations for Kimi than I do!

I think Ferrari will face the same problem they have every time: which driver has the driving style to suit their cars? It's clear they find it hard to adapt their car to Räikkönen, yet I would be very surprised if Vettel would find the car more challenging if it were adapted to Kimi's needs.

Zoue wrote:

trento wrote:

Mercedes-Benz wrote:I do not know why but Kimi has a history of doing well as the season goes on. It was same last year as well. He is getting better and better so hopefully he will be close to Vettel in points soon otherwise Ferrari might favor Vettel in second half of the season.

Yes i see Ferrari retaining Kimi as long as he keeps close to Vettel

He didn't really keep close to Vettel, though. Am I the only one disappointed in Kimi yesterday? He had no issues that he reported and faced no threats from behind. He should have kept pace with Vettel yesterday but finished the first stint some 5s behind. And, although he showed flashes of speed against both Bottas and Vettel in the second stint, he was unable to do it consistently, despite not having any issues or significant traffic, and still finished nearly 9s (excluding final lap) behind Vettel. He again put in the fastest lap of the race, which again raises the question as to why he was so inconsistent and why he couldn't keep up with his team mate. He should have been on his tail IMO.

It wasn't a terrible performance, but if Kimi was the lead driver in the Ferrari we'd be looking at another Mercedes walkover this year and nobody would be trying to claim the Ferrari was the better race car. I don't know how an ex-WDC and man formerly credited with the legend "fastest man in F1" may be happy with his performance on Sunday. If this is him performing to his best when he's comfortable with the car, then he can kiss any idea of a top step finish any given Sunday goodbye this year, unless misfortune befalls his competitors.

To be fair he did at least beat Hamilton albeit the latter had issues with balance and cooling but generally agree with your assessment of his 2017 form. Technically as an ex Wdc he is a joint no.1 and is expected to beat Vettel occasionally but if he can't do that what is the point of him as a younger cheaper driver can perform a No.2 role. Last year he at least out qualified Vettel but this year he has gone backward again. I have held the belief from the start of the season that in such a great car Vettel and Raikonnen are competing head to head for only one seat next year as I suspect Alonso will get the other seat after a kiss and make up with Ferrari after the summer. In that scenario Kimi is not looking good to retain his seat at all especially now that Bottas is turning good at Mercedes and gets on so well with Hamilton leaving Vettel at Ferrari.