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Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

Good for them then as nobody would turn it down.

Yes some do especially when they request it.

You've lost me, how can you turn down something you've requested?.

Bad grammar.

Alonso actually requests preferential treatment.

He did at his first stint at McLaren anyway.

Did he? or... was it promised him by McLaren in an effort to get the 2x reigning WDC to come to their team?

Updated feelings after Bahrain, anyone?

I thought he was pretty dire in qualifying and the early laps of the race, but got into it more as the race went on. Still, Bahrain is arguably Kimi's most successful track after Spa, and finishing half a minute down on his teammate once again isn't what you expect at his best track.

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:Do teams higher lap dogs for Alonso or does his superiority make them lap dogs. For 9 seasons of his career he's partnered drivers who have been with the team longer than him. So I refute the idea teams some how go out and higher number 2's. In fact he has driven alongside 4 world champions and a very nearly champion.

Alonso clearly puts pressure on teams to suit his own needs.

As for the 4 World Champions, JV was washed up and couldn't get a drive, he filled in for 3/4 races, Hamilton wasn't a World Champion hence Alonso thought he deserved the preferential treatment he was promised. Kimi was brought in because LDM promised Alonso he could leave Ferrari if the 2014 car was no good, and with Button the situation never needed to arise in such a poor car.

As for the nearly World Champion Massa he has a 10-2 losing record against teammates, by coincidence the only drivers he managed to beat were 2 of the World Champions you mentioned JV and Kimi, I guess being paired with 4 World Champions in theory sounds like he was being thrown together with drivers who might beat him.

Plenty of people thought Masse or Kimi would beat him. I've lost count of the amount of team mates I've been told will expose Alonso.

Perhaps they were Kimi fans?

Blake wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote: Yes some do especially when they request it.

You've lost me, how can you turn down something you've requested?.

Bad grammar.

Alonso actually requests preferential treatment.

He did at his first stint at McLaren anyway.

Did he? or... was it promised him by McLaren in an effort to get the 2x reigning WDC to come to their team?

Probably and when it was taken away he demanded it back.

pokerman wrote:

Blake wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:Alonso actually requests preferential treatment.

He did at his first stint at McLaren anyway.

Did he? or... was it promised him by McLaren in an effort to get the 2x reigning WDC to come to their team?

Probably and when it was taken away he demanded it back.

I'm not sure where this preferential status elitism bullshit comes from, anyway. Yes, Alonso was promised #1 status by McLaren - he was the reigning WDC, and they were partnering him with a rookie. Nobody expected Lewis to be as quick as him, and when he turned out to be they dropped the preferential status - and look what it got them.

Bottom line: giving the better driver preferential treatment isn't some sort of pantomime villain plot, it's smart. It's the best way to win championships. A driver who refuses preferential treatment isn't doing something noble and great for his team, he's actually costing it. Lewis benefited from being ordered past Bottas today, and I doubt it will be the last time - if he'd also gotten the benefit of beating him in qualifying, he might have won the race.

What's so bad about Alonso wanting to get priority, when in every case he's gotten it he was the better driver anyway?

Exediron wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Blake wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:Alonso actually requests preferential treatment.

He did at his first stint at McLaren anyway.

Did he? or... was it promised him by McLaren in an effort to get the 2x reigning WDC to come to their team?

Probably and when it was taken away he demanded it back.

I'm not sure where this preferential status elitism bullshit comes from, anyway. Yes, Alonso was promised #1 status by McLaren - he was the reigning WDC, and they were partnering him with a rookie. Nobody expected Lewis to be as quick as him, and when he turned out to be they dropped the preferential status - and look what it got them.

Bottom line: giving the better driver preferential treatment isn't some sort of pantomime villain plot, it's smart. It's the best way to win championships. A driver who refuses preferential treatment isn't doing something noble and great for his team, he's actually costing it. Lewis benefited from being ordered past Bottas today, and I doubt it will be the last time - if he'd also gotten the benefit of beating him in qualifying, he might have won the race.

What's so bad about Alonso wanting to get priority, when in every case he's gotten it he was the better driver anyway?

Some drivers simply embrace it more than others and Alonso has become sort of the embodiment of that; seeking it even in situations in which it isn't warranted.

Was Alonso promised number 1 at Mclaren? Is this a fact, what is the source of it? I have never heard this.

I doubt it was in his contract, that was signed in November 2005 when Kimi or JPM were still in the running to be his team mate at that point.

It goes against the Mclaren way, they have always given both drivers an equal chance but if one proves slower then he is moved aside.

Exediron wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Blake wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:Alonso actually requests preferential treatment.

He did at his first stint at McLaren anyway.

Did he? or... was it promised him by McLaren in an effort to get the 2x reigning WDC to come to their team?

Probably and when it was taken away he demanded it back.

I'm not sure where this preferential status elitism bullshit comes from, anyway. Yes, Alonso was promised #1 status by McLaren - he was the reigning WDC, and they were partnering him with a rookie. Nobody expected Lewis to be as quick as him, and when he turned out to be they dropped the preferential status - and look what it got them.

Bottom line: giving the better driver preferential treatment isn't some sort of pantomime villain plot, it's smart. It's the best way to win championships. A driver who refuses preferential treatment isn't doing something noble and great for his team, he's actually costing it. Lewis benefited from being ordered past Bottas today, and I doubt it will be the last time - if he'd also gotten the benefit of beating him in qualifying, he might have won the race.

What's so bad about Alonso wanting to get priority, when in every case he's gotten it he was the better driver anyway?

Indeed but I feel with Alonso he would still want it regardless.

lamo wrote:Was Alonso promised number 1 at Mclaren? Is this a fact, what is the source of it? I have never heard this.

I doubt it was in his contract, that was signed in November 2005 when Kimi or JPM were still in the running to be his team mate at that point.

It goes against the Mclaren way, they have always given both drivers an equal chance but if one proves slower then he is moved aside.

It was a verbal agreement promised by Ron Dennis which he broke after Hamilton's #2 outburst after the Monaco GP which sent the British press into overdrive.

As a Kimi fan, I hate to say it, but right now I'm going with option two. His performance has really not been good enough so far this year, and Bahrain is one of those tracks where he would typically be expected to do well. If he is unable to step it up pretty soon, then evidence would suggest that either he's just past it or the car doesn't suit him at all (or potentially both). The first option wouldn't be all that surprising given his age, and if it's the second one, it's pretty obvious that Ferrari is going to keep designing the car around Vettel -- which means that the problem isn't going to resolve itself, given that his main weakness has always been his performance being too strongly tied to the car being exactly right. Either way, I don't see him doing well at Ferrari again unless he can quickly manage to perform well with this car.

The reason I voted for two is that I don't see that Ferrari still has any real option for a second driver at this point. Kimi's not doing anywhere near as well as he should thus far, but he is still at least collecting decent points although not podiums -- and they're not going to want a driver that they're not certain can even do that. Unless the driver market opens up a lot more than I expect it to next year, the only drivers available are likely to be gambles or very new, and I'll be surprised if Ferrari goes for that. More likely they'll keep Kimi around another year so that some up-and-coming prospect will be ready in time. At this rate if they can get somebody like maybe Pérez or Sainz, I'd lean more towards a less harsh version of number four.

That said, my hope is that Kimi either picks it up and finds his form soon, or failing that, does retire at the end of this season. If he really is unable even to fight for podiums any more, it's definitely time to call it. Obviously I think the best all around would be if he finds his form and Ferrari keep him -- actually fighting at the top -- for another season, but I'm becoming less and less convinced that's got a real chance of happening.

Kimi drives one of 4 cars capable of currently winning a GP, but to date has not threatened for the win in the slightest. This season might be even better with a potential race winner in the second Ferrari. At the moment it seems like such a waste of a seat (and not for the first time with Kimi).

purchville wrote:Kimi drives one of 4 cars capable of currently winning a GP, but to date has not threatened for the win in the slightest. This season might be even better with a potential race winner in the second Ferrari. At the moment it seems like such a waste of a seat (and not for the first time with Kimi).

Don't wish to say this but he'll cost Ferrari a good shot at WCC title.

He's lucky that Red Bull aren't strong yet but from Spain they should be in the mix. He'll probably then finish behind them as well.

Exediron wrote:Updated feelings after Bahrain, anyone?

I thought he was pretty dire in qualifying and the early laps of the race, but got into it more as the race went on. Still, Bahrain is arguably Kimi's most successful track after Spa, and finishing half a minute down on his teammate once again isn't what you expect at his best track.

It was a more solid performance in the race despite losing positions at the start​ and the safety car not being kind to his position either. Decent overtakes of lesser cars and held off Ricciardo at the end who was on a softer tyre. However he is still performing the worst out of the top four and this form will not help him retain his seat next year as i suspect Ferrari would even prefer their young driver to his current form. The only upside for Ferrari is that his form has still been good enough that they are leading the wcc as well as the wdc.

I like Kimi when he is on form but he is becoming more off form as he ages and it just maybe time for him to go after this season as you really can't hide poor performances in a race winning car. He's had much more chances than any other driver would have been allowed no doubt due to his Wdc and McLaren form history but these were over 10 years ago and it doesn't look like he's ever going to get that back.

There's way too much myth surrounding Kimi, for the good and the bad, some stuff I find difficult to agree with based on simple evidence.

1) This "Kimi is fast only when the car is right" is absolutely not true... If there was a car that wasn't "right", it was the 2003 McLaren, and Kimi pushed Schumacher all the way to the last race of the season, when drivers like Montoya were left behind. This was no mean feat, although Kimi (and most other drivers, truth be told) benefitted from the new score system that year, which lessened the value of Schumacher's superior win tally. It's necessary to point out, however, that Schumacher and Ferrari were helped by the FIA banning Michelin's wider front tires, crippling Williams, who looked like the favorites mid-season. In what was the third best car, Kimi was runner-up at the end of the year, not bad at all. Kimi's performance with the 2009 Ferrari after Massa's unfortunate accident was also pretty good, including a race win, and that car is widely recognized as the worst one in recent times (yes, worse than Alonso's 2012 ride) and a horrible one to drive. He's bashed a lot for his stints at Ferrari, especially by Alonso fans, but the truth is that Kimi prevented Ferrari from going winless in their worst season in recent years, and should've gotten more recognition for that. Instead, he got a kick in the butt and a fat paycheck to go with it.

2) He seems to be a smooth driver in the vein of Button. You cannot supposedly "handle more oversteer than Schumacher did" without being smooth. Understeer is the enemy of the smooth driver. This made him struggle in 2008, because of tire temperatures. Massa did not have his problem, as it was reported his driving technique was quite erratic, and, if you bludgeon the car around the circuit, tire temps will rise. It's also part of the reason why the Ferrari was catastrophic in the rain that year, and why Massa himself has always been a terrible wet weather driver (especially that year).

3) Drivers do have their own styles, which effect development. Motor racing is ultimately an affair where the car not only needs speed, but also consistency. This consistency is achieved with driver skill, but also confidence. Keke Rosberg wasn't exactly a scrub, but reportedly couldn't match Prost at McLaren because their driving styles contrasted too much. If you don't trust the car, you simply can't push it hard enough.

All being said, I simply can't expect a driver nearing his 40s to perform as well as he did in his prime. Kimi probably lost some valuable seat time in the years he was absent from F1, although his sabbatical's effect lessened as he got used to the cars, of course. Mansell in 1995 didn't unlearn how to drive an F1 overnight, he was simply unfit: his time was up. Prost in 1993 was kept honest by Damon Hill at times and had much more difficulty winning the title than his car's superiority would suggest. Lauda wasn't the same driver in 1984 (when he last won the WDC) as he used to be in his prime either. The list goes on.

Perhaps it's time for Kimi to hang the helmet, but that's not really a problem since there's plenty of racing to be done once you leave F1 even when you're almost 40. I'd like to see him at Le Mans, myself, though he's a Finn so he's devoted to rallying.

It's hard to say too soon. Kimi could get better as the season goes and get podiums. I doubt Ferrari really cares if he beats Vettel as long as Vettel is the one winning races. All Kimi needs to do is be right near Vettel and bring home the WCC.

Lets be realistic about the whole thing for a change.
Without taking anything away from the drivers skills. Kimi hasnt suddenly lost his driving skills ,thats bs.
If we think of the future of Ferrari, not just Kimi, we see both of the drivers are without the deal for next year.
There is no question about, who Ferrari wants to keep in their team . Only way to keep Vettel ,is to keep him happy,specially now when they have a car that can win championships.
Kimis future from the very beginning was to be the number two driver. Its clear now as the team on Ferraris level, dont make the same mistake twice.
Kimis race strategies have been left overs.
They focus on Vettel now, because they want to win championship with him. WCC comes to guestion later in the season when Vettels point difference to Kimi is big enough.
Thats how it just is.

appletree wrote:Without taking anything away from the drivers skills. Kimi hasnt suddenly lost his driving skills ,thats bs.

I agree, but other than qualifying in the second half of last year this is how Kimi has always performed against Vettel. It's also how he performed relative to Alonso in 2014.

I think Kimi's performance in his second stint at Ferrari has been pretty consistent overall, he either gained a little bit of qualifying speed in the latter half of 2016 or Vettel lost some, other than that it's pretty much business as usual unfortunately.

I don't think we're ever seeing the iceman of the early/mid 2000s return, not consistently at least.

pokerman wrote:

lamo wrote:Was Alonso promised number 1 at Mclaren? Is this a fact, what is the source of it? I have never heard this.

I doubt it was in his contract, that was signed in November 2005 when Kimi or JPM were still in the running to be his team mate at that point.

It goes against the Mclaren way, they have always given both drivers an equal chance but if one proves slower then he is moved aside.

It was a verbal agreement promised by Ron Dennis which he broke after Hamilton's #2 outburst after the Monaco GP which sent the British press into overdrive.

Yeah it's mentioned here, Whitmarsh didn't even know about the promise at the time but Ron later admitted it. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/30291496

Ron himself hinted at it in the press conference when Alonso re-signed.

McLaren didn't want it in the contract Is what I read but that could be rubbish. There's as good an argument to be made Alonso is happy enough taking gentlemen's agreements because he went on to choose more money over options in his Ferrari extension contract in 2011 and relied on a gentlemen's agreement with LdM to leave so there's proof even after 07 he doesn't need things in writing.

Must see Raikkonen video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gc7av-OXMyg

Is it true Ferrari are growing tired of Raikkonen's non performances?

purchville wrote:Kimi drives one of 4 cars capable of currently winning a GP, but to date has not threatened for the win in the slightest. This season might be even better with a potential race winner in the second Ferrari. At the moment it seems like such a waste of a seat (and not for the first time with Kimi).

He is yet to even finish on the podium.

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

lamo wrote:Was Alonso promised number 1 at Mclaren? Is this a fact, what is the source of it? I have never heard this.

I doubt it was in his contract, that was signed in November 2005 when Kimi or JPM were still in the running to be his team mate at that point.

It goes against the Mclaren way, they have always given both drivers an equal chance but if one proves slower then he is moved aside.

It was a verbal agreement promised by Ron Dennis which he broke after Hamilton's #2 outburst after the Monaco GP which sent the British press into overdrive.

Yeah it's mentioned here, Whitmarsh didn't even know about the promise at the time but Ron later admitted it. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/30291496

Ron himself hinted at it in the press conference when Alonso re-signed.

McLaren didn't want it in the contract Is what I read but that could be rubbish. There's as good an argument to be made Alonso is happy enough taking gentlemen's agreements because he went on to choose more money over options in his Ferrari extension contract in 2011 and relied on a gentlemen's agreement with LdM to leave so there's proof even after 07 he doesn't need things in writing.

So I was quite surprised to see Kimi's lap times on Sunday. Tbh, I thought he was pretty rubbish but it seems that on the Softs at least he was comfortably Vettel's match. He really seemed to struggle on his (used) Super Softs but not on the Softs.

Of course, we don't know if Seb was pacing himself out in front but it does look as though Kimi was perhaps not quite as hopeless as I thought. OTOH, even though he was quicker than Vettel he was still significantly slower than Lewis, while both were trying to catch the car in front, which does tend to point to the Mercedes perhaps still having the edge

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... n%20Vettel

Zoue wrote: Of course, we don't know if Seb was pacing himself out in front but it does look as though Kimi was perhaps not quite as hopeless as I thought. OTOH, even though he was quicker than Vettel he was still significantly slower than Lewis, while both were trying to catch the car in front, which does tend to point to the Mercedes perhaps still having the edge

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... n%20Vettel

Pretty sure Vettel was pacing himself and diving to a safe delta time between 1:34.0 and 1:34.5. He knew if he overcooked it the tyres would be gone so made sure they went to the end.

mds wrote:

Zoue wrote: Of course, we don't know if Seb was pacing himself out in front but it does look as though Kimi was perhaps not quite as hopeless as I thought. OTOH, even though he was quicker than Vettel he was still significantly slower than Lewis, while both were trying to catch the car in front, which does tend to point to the Mercedes perhaps still having the edge

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... n%20Vettel

Pretty sure Vettel was pacing himself and diving to a safe delta time between 1:34.0 and 1:34.5. He knew if he overcooked it the tyres would be gone so made sure they went to the end.

I agree he probably was, but we have no idea by how much. My point was only in race pace on the Softs Kimi looked more competitive than I initially thought, although he looked poor on the Super Softs. But the second point was that unless Seb was drastically pacing himself, the Mercedes was probably the quicker car overall. After all, Lewis didn't knacker his tyres, did he?

Zoue wrote:

mds wrote:

Zoue wrote: Of course, we don't know if Seb was pacing himself out in front but it does look as though Kimi was perhaps not quite as hopeless as I thought. OTOH, even though he was quicker than Vettel he was still significantly slower than Lewis, while both were trying to catch the car in front, which does tend to point to the Mercedes perhaps still having the edge

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... n%20Vettel

Pretty sure Vettel was pacing himself and diving to a safe delta time between 1:34.0 and 1:34.5. He knew if he overcooked it the tyres would be gone so made sure they went to the end.

I agree he probably was, but we have no idea by how much. My point was only in race pace on the Softs Kimi looked more competitive than I initially thought, although he looked poor on the Super Softs. But the second point was that unless Seb was drastically pacing himself, the Mercedes was probably the quicker car overall. After all, Lewis didn't knacker his tyres, did he?

The Ferrari looked significantly quicker on supersofts and on heavy fuel. On the softs, as the car lost weight, Lewis looked faster but Bottas did not. Hard to say with setup, engine settings and all sorts of other variables.

As for Kimi, he has often had solid race pace throughout this entire time that he's been underperforming. His problem is not that he can't do laps at a solid pace. It's that he can't make things happen in the crucial moments (like starts, restarts, qualifying, times when he needs to make a pass or defend a position, etc.). He consistently loses out in those key moments when positions are lost and gained and that is what costs him in the races. Normally he spends most of his race stuck behind someone slower than him.

Mika Salo had a chat with Jock Clear who said Kimi's preference is a car that is very sensitive to the initial turn-in. If it isn't, Kimi thinks it's understeering and just cannot drive it. At the end of last year it was to his liking and he beat Vettel regurarly. Source mtv.fi

Not any excuse, I know, but perhaps gives a better idea about his struggles.

Covalent wrote:Mika Salo had a chat with Jock Clear who said Kimi's preference is a car that is very sensitive to the initial turn-in. If it isn't, Kimi thinks it's understeering and just cannot drive it. At the end of last year it was to his liking and he beat Vettel regurarly. Source mtv.fi

Not any excuse, I know, but perhaps gives a better idea about his struggles.

I can totally understand that, since I'm the same way in racing sims. If I don't have a car that's sensitive to the point of being twitchy on turn-in, I can't make it work the way I want.

That said, you would think an F1 world champion could drive around it.

Exediron wrote:

Covalent wrote:Mika Salo had a chat with Jock Clear who said Kimi's preference is a car that is very sensitive to the initial turn-in. If it isn't, Kimi thinks it's understeering and just cannot drive it. At the end of last year it was to his liking and he beat Vettel regurarly. Source mtv.fi

Not any excuse, I know, but perhaps gives a better idea about his struggles.

I can totally understand that, since I'm the same way in racing sims. If I don't have a car that's sensitive to the point of being twitchy on turn-in, I can't make it work the way I want.

That said, you would think an F1 world champion could drive around it.

I think it should be an F1 drivers job to do exactly that, make it work.

Exediron wrote:

Covalent wrote:Mika Salo had a chat with Jock Clear who said Kimi's preference is a car that is very sensitive to the initial turn-in. If it isn't, Kimi thinks it's understeering and just cannot drive it. At the end of last year it was to his liking and he beat Vettel regurarly. Source mtv.fi

Not any excuse, I know, but perhaps gives a better idea about his struggles.

I can totally understand that, since I'm the same way in racing sims. If I don't have a car that's sensitive to the point of being twitchy on turn-in, I can't make it work the way I want.

That said, you would think an F1 world champion could drive around it.

That is Kimis biggest weakness. If he doesn't get that sharp front end he can not extract the full potential out of the car. He has never been able to drive around it.

To the subject I also strongly believe that this is Kimis last season unless he really improves big time. It seems that this is another 2014 for Kimi again and he just can't get the setup right (Sharpness to the front end that he needs to perform well).

In last race his race pace was decent but the lousy start and fakd up strategy (again... wake up Ferrari) ruined his race completely. That safety car didn't suit his situation at all either. Otherwise he could have been at least 3rd.

Yellowbin74 wrote:I know that as drivers get older they may lose a little speed, but for me Kimi's issue is more than that.

I just don't see the guy that overtook Fisi on the last lap in Japan all those years back (what a great race that was!).

The McLaren Kimi was a totally different beast to the Ferrari Kimi, as I've said before.

He went to Ferrari as they would give him more personal freedom (plus a car that wouldn't break down as much) and they did give him his WDC in fairness.

But I feel that the McLaren environment (keeping him reined in a little) was better for getting the most of him out on the track.

Just my thoughts, could all be totally wrong...

Or perhaps McLaren gave him that by allowing a rookie to compete on equal times with a 2x WDC (seems awfully pertinent in the current circumstances!)

ALESI wrote:

Yellowbin74 wrote:I know that as drivers get older they may lose a little speed, but for me Kimi's issue is more than that.

I just don't see the guy that overtook Fisi on the last lap in Japan all those years back (what a great race that was!).

The McLaren Kimi was a totally different beast to the Ferrari Kimi, as I've said before.

He went to Ferrari as they would give him more personal freedom (plus a car that wouldn't break down as much) and they did give him his WDC in fairness.

But I feel that the McLaren environment (keeping him reined in a little) was better for getting the most of him out on the track.

Just my thoughts, could all be totally wrong...

Or perhaps McLaren gave him that by allowing a rookie to compete on equal times with a 2x WDC (seems awfully pertinent in the current circumstances!)

Yeah McLaren should have thrown their weight behind the slower driver. It makes perfect sense.

jimmyj wrote:

Exediron wrote:

Covalent wrote:Mika Salo had a chat with Jock Clear who said Kimi's preference is a car that is very sensitive to the initial turn-in. If it isn't, Kimi thinks it's understeering and just cannot drive it. At the end of last year it was to his liking and he beat Vettel regurarly. Source mtv.fi

Not any excuse, I know, but perhaps gives a better idea about his struggles.

I can totally understand that, since I'm the same way in racing sims. If I don't have a car that's sensitive to the point of being twitchy on turn-in, I can't make it work the way I want.

That said, you would think an F1 world champion could drive around it.

I think it should be an F1 drivers job to do exactly that, make it work.

Believe it or not, it's not that simple!

Would be nice to see anyone here try to make a front-engined BMW or a Mercedes handle like a 911 does.

No amount of wizardry can make a car change its fundamental behavior. Porsche has been trying to do that with the 911 for more than 50 years. In their latest attempt, they just gave up and moved the car's engine enough to make it effectively a mid-engined car. Even the road-going 911s are progressively less rear-biased the newer they are.

Their previous solution was AWD but the fans don't like it and it's not allowed in racing anyway.

Considering how standard F1 cars have become these days, the difference is probably milimetric. F1 drivers are a sensitive bunch, since they're the best in their field.

can Ferrari fire Kimi if he isn't performing?

trento wrote:can Ferrari fire Kimi if he isn't performing?

yes

Pullrod wrote:

ALESI wrote:

Yellowbin74 wrote:I know that as drivers get older they may lose a little speed, but for me Kimi's issue is more than that.

I just don't see the guy that overtook Fisi on the last lap in Japan all those years back (what a great race that was!).

The McLaren Kimi was a totally different beast to the Ferrari Kimi, as I've said before.

He went to Ferrari as they would give him more personal freedom (plus a car that wouldn't break down as much) and they did give him his WDC in fairness.

But I feel that the McLaren environment (keeping him reined in a little) was better for getting the most of him out on the track.

Just my thoughts, could all be totally wrong...

Or perhaps McLaren gave him that by allowing a rookie to compete on equal times with a 2x WDC (seems awfully pertinent in the current circumstances!)

Yeah McLaren should have thrown their weight behind the slower driver. It makes perfect sense.

Hmm, regardless of which driver they'd backed they would have won... and surely it made sense to back the guy who'd already proven himself, no? It's okay to be clever in hindsight, but at the time the obvious thing to do was to back Fernando.

Then again, maybe by the end of the year we'll be saying... Merc should have backed Bottas? You never know...

i'd like to see Fernando and seb in Ferrari next year

Pole2Win wrote:

jimmyj wrote:

Exediron wrote:That said, you would think an F1 world champion could drive around it.

I think it should be an F1 drivers job to do exactly that, make it work.

Believe it or not, it's not that simple!

Would be nice to see anyone here try to make a front-engined BMW or a Mercedes handle like a 911 does.

You say that, and then right at the bottom of your own post you admit it's a totally different situation...

Pole2Win wrote:Considering how standard F1 cars have become these days, the difference is probably milimetric. F1 drivers are a sensitive bunch, since they're the best in their field.

Of course I wouldn't expect him to be able to alter the fundamental handling of the car. That's not the issue here, though - the issue is that he needs a very specific feel, and he seems unable to adapt his driving (not the car) to get around the issue. An F1 world champion should be able to drive around what amounts to a feel issue; Seb makes it clear that the car doesn't actually have an understeer problem, it's just that Kimi's driving style gives it one. He should be able to change that.