2017 Chinese Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

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LKS1
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Re: 2017 Chinese Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by LKS1 »

Invade wrote:@TheGiantHogweed

Absolutely. :thumbup:

We should see only fully live footage in all its glory and dynamism so that we're really "in" it and they can show all these fancy replays after. How hard can it be?
:thumbup:

Zoue
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Re: 2017 Chinese Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Zoue »

pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote: That doesn't change what I said.
it does make it irrelevant, though?
What Hamilton being faster on softer tyres proves anything?
My point, if you'd bothered to read it before jumping to Hamilton's defence yet again for an insult that wasn't there, was that the times didn't prove anything and it wasn't possible to say the Ferrari was the best car.
That still doesn't fly past using a flawed comparison to prove your point so going down the route he was faster than Kimi therefore maybe it's just Vettel that was quicker.
I also said that he'd left time on the table in the 3rd sector. Which means the gap to Kimi could have been even bigger, off-setting the tyre difference. Which again means it's hard to say the Ferrari is the quicker car. What point, exactly, are you fighting so desperately to prove? Is it your contention that the Ferrari is definitely quicker? If so, on what grounds? If not, then what are you even arguing about?

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LKS1
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Re: 2017 Chinese Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by LKS1 »

Zoue wrote:wow, just noticed that 5th place was 1.3s behind. 6th was 1.8s! 8O
Yes, hence my comment about the other teams being so far behind in quali.

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Lotus49
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Re: 2017 Chinese Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Lotus49 »

P-F1 Mod wrote:Just heard that the engine problem for Verstappen was that two cylinders simply weren't running.
And they still managed to match Alonso's speed trap figures. :lol:
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Re: 2017 Chinese Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Zoue »

pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Superb lap from Hamilton. I think he made the difference when it came to it.
Looking at the relative gaps to their teammates I think both Hamilton and Vettel were at the limits of their cars.

Mercedes still seem to gain a lot in Q3 which leads me to believe they still have a qualifying mode. It does appear to me at the moment that the Ferrari is the better race car though, while Mercedes have the better qualifying car due to that extra bit they find in Q3.
yes, I'd tend to agree.

10:19 When Vettel was told about the gap to Hamilton, he seemed very surprised. After a few choice words, he said: "I didn't believe that, it was the perfect lap".

Looks like there was nothing left in the tank for Vettel and the Merc was just out of reach in qulifying
Because Vettel would be the ultimate of speed in a F1 car?

Now going forward from that he has now said that perhaps he braked a bit to early for one of the corners.
And Lewis said he was slower than he could have been in S1.

I think both Seb and Lewis hauled all they could out of their cars in Q3. Both are excellent qualifiers. But Mercedes have always had a special Q3 qualifying mode and there's no reason to believe that doesn't exist any longer. Which does suggest that the Ferraris will be a little more competitive to them in the race, where Mercedes had the edge in qualifying.

I thought Mercedes would stamp their authority on Ferrari in Shanghai and normal service would be resumed on a "proper" race track, but I'm more than happy to be proven wrong. The main concern I have for tomorrow is that the Ferraris were relatively slow in the speed trap, slower than the Mercs, which could present problems on the looooong straight. But overall I'm really happy that the cars look relatively evenly matched and if it continues in this way it bodes well for the rest of the season

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Re: 2017 Chinese Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Clarky »

Lotus49 wrote:
P-F1 Mod wrote:Just heard that the engine problem for Verstappen was that two cylinders simply weren't running.
And they still managed to match Alonso's speed trap figures. :lol:
I must admit I didnt hear his engine sounding sick.

If you lose a cylinder you'd expect to hear something.

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Re: 2017 Chinese Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Invade »

Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Superb lap from Hamilton. I think he made the difference when it came to it.
Looking at the relative gaps to their teammates I think both Hamilton and Vettel were at the limits of their cars.

Mercedes still seem to gain a lot in Q3 which leads me to believe they still have a qualifying mode. It does appear to me at the moment that the Ferrari is the better race car though, while Mercedes have the better qualifying car due to that extra bit they find in Q3.
yes, I'd tend to agree.

10:19 When Vettel was told about the gap to Hamilton, he seemed very surprised. After a few choice words, he said: "I didn't believe that, it was the perfect lap".

Looks like there was nothing left in the tank for Vettel and the Merc was just out of reach in qulifying
Because Vettel would be the ultimate of speed in a F1 car?

Now going forward from that he has now said that perhaps he braked a bit to early for one of the corners.
And Lewis said he was slower than he could have been in S1.

I think both Seb and Lewis hauled all they could out of their cars in Q3. Both are excellent qualifiers. But Mercedes have always had a special Q3 qualifying mode and there's no reason to believe that doesn't exist any longer. Which does suggest that the Ferraris will be a little more competitive to them in the race, where Mercedes had the edge in qualifying.

I thought Mercedes would stamp their authority on Ferrari in Shanghai and normal service would be resumed on a "proper" race track, but I'm more than happy to be proven wrong. The main concern I have for tomorrow is that the Ferraris were relatively slow in the speed trap, slower than the Mercs, which could present problems on the looooong straight. But overall I'm really happy that the cars look relatively evenly matched and if it continues in this way it bodes well for the rest of the season
Hamilton was about 2 tenths quicker in Q3 than Q2 IIRC but his car looked more unstable and less compliant in Q2. Their Q3 edge or mode might still exist, though it seems to me like Hamilton's extra 2 tenths could have easily just come from putting in a cleaner lap.

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Re: 2017 Chinese Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by pokerman »

Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote: it does make it irrelevant, though?
What Hamilton being faster on softer tyres proves anything?
My point, if you'd bothered to read it before jumping to Hamilton's defence yet again for an insult that wasn't there, was that the times didn't prove anything and it wasn't possible to say the Ferrari was the best car.
That still doesn't fly past using a flawed comparison to prove your point so going down the route he was faster than Kimi therefore maybe it's just Vettel that was quicker.
I also said that he'd left time on the table in the 3rd sector. Which means the gap to Kimi could have been even bigger, off-setting the tyre difference. Which again means it's hard to say the Ferrari is the quicker car. What point, exactly, are you fighting so desperately to prove? Is it your contention that the Ferrari is definitely quicker? If so, on what grounds? If not, then what are you even arguing about?
No because the comment was made about the Ferrari being faster was because it was on harder tyres so what relevance is it to say that Hamilton was faster than Kimi in the first place, Vettel was faster on harder tyres?

Now I read from some because Hamilton is on pole the Mercedes is faster, Vettel being faster than Bottas seems to have little reference?
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pokerman
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Re: 2017 Chinese Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by pokerman »

Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Superb lap from Hamilton. I think he made the difference when it came to it.
Looking at the relative gaps to their teammates I think both Hamilton and Vettel were at the limits of their cars.

Mercedes still seem to gain a lot in Q3 which leads me to believe they still have a qualifying mode. It does appear to me at the moment that the Ferrari is the better race car though, while Mercedes have the better qualifying car due to that extra bit they find in Q3.
yes, I'd tend to agree.

10:19 When Vettel was told about the gap to Hamilton, he seemed very surprised. After a few choice words, he said: "I didn't believe that, it was the perfect lap".

Looks like there was nothing left in the tank for Vettel and the Merc was just out of reach in qulifying
Because Vettel would be the ultimate of speed in a F1 car?

Now going forward from that he has now said that perhaps he braked a bit to early for one of the corners.
And Lewis said he was slower than he could have been in S1.

I think both Seb and Lewis hauled all they could out of their cars in Q3. Both are excellent qualifiers. But Mercedes have always had a special Q3 qualifying mode and there's no reason to believe that doesn't exist any longer. Which does suggest that the Ferraris will be a little more competitive to them in the race, where Mercedes had the edge in qualifying.

I thought Mercedes would stamp their authority on Ferrari in Shanghai and normal service would be resumed on a "proper" race track, but I'm more than happy to be proven wrong. The main concern I have for tomorrow is that the Ferraris were relatively slow in the speed trap, slower than the Mercs, which could present problems on the looooong straight. But overall I'm really happy that the cars look relatively evenly matched and if it continues in this way it bodes well for the rest of the season
Well I would put Ferrari's better race pace down to it's better usage of its tyres.
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Andy2402
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Re: 2017 Chinese Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Andy2402 »

Just looking at that session I think Merc had the slightly better car over 1 lap for the session. Vettel had the "perfect" lap which managed to get him ahead of bottas. Hard to tell however as he also said he was shy on the brakes ?

If vettel had the "perfect lap" that suggests the gap is 0.2 between the Merc and the Ferrari (as Lewis lap wasn't perfect)

If vettel didn't have the perfect lap that suggests the gap is 0.1 to 0.2

So hard to tell -we all saw the comparisn video from the previous qualifying - the difference is nothing across a lap. So hard to tell what's driver and what's car.

My guy feel tells me Merc is at least a tenth faster which means across the season Lewis will take more poles - I rate both their 1 lap pace around the same level - certainly not different enough for one to dominate the other

However even if the Ferrari is 0.1 to 0.2 slower across the lap - that's a small enough gap for Seb to make the difference across race distance- let's hope ferrari have good race pace again. Also maybe the rain will bring the bulls into it

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Re: 2017 Chinese Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Invade »

Andy2402 wrote:Just looking at that session I think Merc had the slightly better car over 1 lap for the session. Vettel had the "perfect" lap which managed to get him ahead of bottas. Hard to tell however as he also said he was shy on the brakes ?

If vettel had the "perfect lap" that suggests the gap is 0.2 between the Merc and the Ferrari (as Lewis lap wasn't perfect)

If vettel didn't have the perfect lap that suggests the gap is 0.1 to 0.2

So hard to tell -we all saw the comparisn video from the previous qualifying - the difference is nothing across a lap. So hard to tell what's driver and what's car.

My guy feel tells me Merc is at least a tenth faster which means across the season Lewis will take more poles - I rate both their 1 lap pace around the same level - certainly not different enough for one to dominate the other

However even if the Ferrari is 0.1 to 0.2 slower across the lap - that's a small enough gap for Seb to make the difference across race distance- let's hope ferrari have good race pace again. Also maybe the rain will bring the bulls into it
I more or less agree. I gave it a wider margin with 0.1-0.4 but think it's between 0.15 and 0.25.

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Re: 2017 Chinese Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Zoue »

Invade wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote: Looking at the relative gaps to their teammates I think both Hamilton and Vettel were at the limits of their cars.

Mercedes still seem to gain a lot in Q3 which leads me to believe they still have a qualifying mode. It does appear to me at the moment that the Ferrari is the better race car though, while Mercedes have the better qualifying car due to that extra bit they find in Q3.
yes, I'd tend to agree.

10:19 When Vettel was told about the gap to Hamilton, he seemed very surprised. After a few choice words, he said: "I didn't believe that, it was the perfect lap".

Looks like there was nothing left in the tank for Vettel and the Merc was just out of reach in qulifying
Because Vettel would be the ultimate of speed in a F1 car?

Now going forward from that he has now said that perhaps he braked a bit to early for one of the corners.
And Lewis said he was slower than he could have been in S1.

I think both Seb and Lewis hauled all they could out of their cars in Q3. Both are excellent qualifiers. But Mercedes have always had a special Q3 qualifying mode and there's no reason to believe that doesn't exist any longer. Which does suggest that the Ferraris will be a little more competitive to them in the race, where Mercedes had the edge in qualifying.

I thought Mercedes would stamp their authority on Ferrari in Shanghai and normal service would be resumed on a "proper" race track, but I'm more than happy to be proven wrong. The main concern I have for tomorrow is that the Ferraris were relatively slow in the speed trap, slower than the Mercs, which could present problems on the looooong straight. But overall I'm really happy that the cars look relatively evenly matched and if it continues in this way it bodes well for the rest of the season
Hamilton was about 2 tenths quicker in Q3 than Q2 IIRC but his car looked more unstable and less compliant in Q2. Their Q3 edge or mode might still exist, though it seems to me like Hamilton's extra 2 tenths could have easily just come from putting in a cleaner lap.
Hamilton's Q2 was 1:32.406. His Q3 was 1:31.678. That's a lot more than 2 tenths difference! Bottas had an even bigger improvement.

I agree it's possible, but I don't really see why they would suddenly park their Q3 mode this year. To what end? To me it seems as though the Mercedes still have that small qualifying edge

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Re: 2017 Chinese Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Zoue »

Andy2402 wrote:Just looking at that session I think Merc had the slightly better car over 1 lap for the session. Vettel had the "perfect" lap which managed to get him ahead of bottas. Hard to tell however as he also said he was shy on the brakes ?

If vettel had the "perfect lap" that suggests the gap is 0.2 between the Merc and the Ferrari (as Lewis lap wasn't perfect)

If vettel didn't have the perfect lap that suggests the gap is 0.1 to 0.2

So hard to tell -we all saw the comparisn video from the previous qualifying - the difference is nothing across a lap. So hard to tell what's driver and what's car.

My guy feel tells me Merc is at least a tenth faster which means across the season Lewis will take more poles - I rate both their 1 lap pace around the same level - certainly not different enough for one to dominate the other

However even if the Ferrari is 0.1 to 0.2 slower across the lap - that's a small enough gap for Seb to make the difference across race distance- let's hope ferrari have good race pace again. Also maybe the rain will bring the bulls into it
:thumbup:

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Re: 2017 Chinese Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Invade »

Zoue wrote: than happy to be proven wrong. The main concern I have for tomorrow is that the Ferraris were relatively slow in the speed trap, slower than the Mercs, which could present problems on the looooong straight. But overall I'm really happy that the cars look relatively evenly matched and if it continues in this way it bodes well for the rest of the season

Hamilton was about 2 tenths quicker in Q3 than Q2 IIRC but his car looked more unstable and less compliant in Q2. Their Q3 edge or mode might still exist, though it seems to me like Hamilton's extra 2 tenths could have easily just come from putting in a cleaner lap.
Hamilton's Q2 was 1:32.406. His Q3 was 1:31.678. That's a lot more than 2 tenths difference! Bottas had an even bigger improvement.

I agree it's possible, but I don't really see why they would suddenly park their Q3 mode this year. To what end? To me it seems as though the Mercedes still have that small qualifying edge
My bad Zoue, I was remembering very wrongly and confusing Q2 with his first Q3 lap.


Additionally, formatting gets awkward when the website tells you that you can't embed more than 5 posts.

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Re: 2017 Chinese Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Ocon »

Gumption wrote:Mercedes is still the car to beat in qualifying. Hopefully Ferrari can mount a challenge.
You mean Hamilton is the man to beat. :)

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Re: 2017 Chinese Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Lotus49 »

pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote: What Hamilton being faster on softer tyres proves anything?
My point, if you'd bothered to read it before jumping to Hamilton's defence yet again for an insult that wasn't there, was that the times didn't prove anything and it wasn't possible to say the Ferrari was the best car.
That still doesn't fly past using a flawed comparison to prove your point so going down the route he was faster than Kimi therefore maybe it's just Vettel that was quicker.
I also said that he'd left time on the table in the 3rd sector. Which means the gap to Kimi could have been even bigger, off-setting the tyre difference. Which again means it's hard to say the Ferrari is the quicker car. What point, exactly, are you fighting so desperately to prove? Is it your contention that the Ferrari is definitely quicker? If so, on what grounds? If not, then what are you even arguing about?
No because the comment was made about the Ferrari being faster was because it was on harder tyres so what relevance is it to say that Hamilton was faster than Kimi in the first place, Vettel was faster on harder tyres?

Now I read from some because Hamilton is on pole the Mercedes is faster, Vettel being faster than Bottas seems to have little reference?
Probably because we know Bottas didn't get the maximum from the car by at least 2ths and only out qualified Seb by 0.001.

Assuming you don't think Bottas is quicker than Seb then that points to a small Mercedes advantage assuming both Lewis and Seb made no errors and Seb didn't leave 2ths on the table which looked unlikely.

Seb was a bit contradictory though as in the car he said it was perfect but out of the car he said he may have welched a bit on the brakes at the last corner so you'd have to watch the onboards to judge for yourself.
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Re: 2017 Chinese Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Zoue »

pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote: Looking at the relative gaps to their teammates I think both Hamilton and Vettel were at the limits of their cars.

Mercedes still seem to gain a lot in Q3 which leads me to believe they still have a qualifying mode. It does appear to me at the moment that the Ferrari is the better race car though, while Mercedes have the better qualifying car due to that extra bit they find in Q3.
yes, I'd tend to agree.

10:19 When Vettel was told about the gap to Hamilton, he seemed very surprised. After a few choice words, he said: "I didn't believe that, it was the perfect lap".

Looks like there was nothing left in the tank for Vettel and the Merc was just out of reach in qulifying
Because Vettel would be the ultimate of speed in a F1 car?

Now going forward from that he has now said that perhaps he braked a bit to early for one of the corners.
And Lewis said he was slower than he could have been in S1.

I think both Seb and Lewis hauled all they could out of their cars in Q3. Both are excellent qualifiers. But Mercedes have always had a special Q3 qualifying mode and there's no reason to believe that doesn't exist any longer. Which does suggest that the Ferraris will be a little more competitive to them in the race, where Mercedes had the edge in qualifying.

I thought Mercedes would stamp their authority on Ferrari in Shanghai and normal service would be resumed on a "proper" race track, but I'm more than happy to be proven wrong. The main concern I have for tomorrow is that the Ferraris were relatively slow in the speed trap, slower than the Mercs, which could present problems on the looooong straight. But overall I'm really happy that the cars look relatively evenly matched and if it continues in this way it bodes well for the rest of the season
Well I would put Ferrari's better race pace down to it's better usage of its tyres.
Entirely possible. I don't think there will be much. if anything, between them. If Australia is any guide it may be that the Ferrari suffers less from dirty air than the Mercedes does, so from Vettel's point of view he may be able to follow closer in the twisty bits to enable him to use DRS to overtake on the straights. But it seems to me that the cars are close enough in performance that any competitive differences will come from the drivers

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Re: 2017 Chinese Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Ocon »

Are there any threads anywhere on V8 Supercars? This race today should be amazing. Is it allowed to have threads on any racing other than F1? I know I've seen a thread about Moto GP.

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Re: 2017 Chinese Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

pokerman wrote:Now I read from some because Hamilton is on pole the Mercedes is faster, Vettel being faster than Bottas seems to have little reference?

Surely only as relevant as Raikkonen being 4 tenths slower than Hamilton and 2.5 slower than Bottas.

We need more qualifying sessions to judge it properly, and this is a good Hamilton track no doubt about it, but it seems that the trends from the last few years have continued. Mercedes still have that extra mode on their engine that gives them a boost in qualifying. It also seems that Ferrari's race pace is still more competitive than their qualifying pace, which given how close it is in qualifying this year would put Ferrari ahead on race pace. Which seems to be correct based on Australia.

Now obviously we only have two qualifying sessions and one race to go on, I'm more than happy to say I could be wrong here. The Ferrari could be the better qualifying car and Mercedes better race car, however from what we've seen so far IMO the characteristics of the Ferrari/Merc from the last few years have carried over, it's just a lot closer on raw pace.

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Re: 2017 Chinese Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Zoue »

pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:What Hamilton being faster on softer tyres proves anything?
My point, if you'd bothered to read it before jumping to Hamilton's defence yet again for an insult that wasn't there, was that the times didn't prove anything and it wasn't possible to say the Ferrari was the best car.
That still doesn't fly past using a flawed comparison to prove your point so going down the route he was faster than Kimi therefore maybe it's just Vettel that was quicker.
I also said that he'd left time on the table in the 3rd sector. Which means the gap to Kimi could have been even bigger, off-setting the tyre difference. Which again means it's hard to say the Ferrari is the quicker car. What point, exactly, are you fighting so desperately to prove? Is it your contention that the Ferrari is definitely quicker? If so, on what grounds? If not, then what are you even arguing about?
No because the comment was made about the Ferrari being faster was because it was on harder tyres so what relevance is it to say that Hamilton was faster than Kimi in the first place, Vettel was faster on harder tyres?

Now I read from some because Hamilton is on pole the Mercedes is faster, Vettel being faster than Bottas seems to have little reference?
The relevance is from the point made that Lewis had a poor final sector, which indicates he left time on the table. There was nothing from the available evidence that would point to one car being faster than the other. That was my only point. You turning this into a Hamilton thing is like a Pavlovian response.

Q2 showed that there was precious little between the cars. Kimi only improved on his 2nd run, but on their first runs Lewis and Seb, both acknowledged qualifying specialists, were neck and neck, which again indicates reasonable parity of equipment.

As for Vettel being faster than Bottas, the fact that they were more or less equal (0.001s, for heaven's sake!) and Bottas clearly left time on the table, while we have nothing to suggest Vettel did, would tend to support the position that in Q3 at least the Mercedes was the car to beat.

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Re: 2017 Chinese Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by mds »

Bottas was two tenths faster in S3 than Hamilton, suggesting Hamilton could have been a bit faster too.

But this seems to be becoming a trend after qualifying: find just the minor imperfection in Vettel's Q3 lap then use it to cast doubt on whether the Mercedes really is the fastest single lap car.

It's bull, frankly. Vettel's lap was good enough to be sure that car couldn't have beaten the Merc today. He beat a Merc, but all that proves is that the second Merc left time on the table.

I am somewhat optimistic about race pace though.
Go Vandoorne :( - Verstappen - Vettel!

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Re: 2017 Chinese Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Lotus49 »

mds wrote:Bottas was two tenths faster in S3 than Hamilton, suggesting Hamilton could have been a bit faster too.

But this seems to be becoming a trend after qualifying: find just the minor imperfection in Vettel's Q3 lap then use it to cast doubt on whether the Mercedes really is the fastest single lap car.

It's bull, frankly. Vettel's lap was good enough to be sure that car couldn't have beaten the meet today. He beat a Merc, but all that proves is that the second Merc left time on the table.

I am somewhat optimistic about race pace though.
Yeah race pace looks like it swings to Ferrari's favour but I wonder if that might change in the wet where being harder on your tyres shouldn't be as big a penalty and in the opening laps might actually help Lewis get up to speed quicker through getting good heat into them.
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Re: 2017 Chinese Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Ocon »

pokerman wrote:
Now I read from some because Hamilton is on pole the Mercedes is faster, Vettel being faster than Bottas seems to have little reference?
This debate on which car is faster is pretty ridiculous based on only what happened today. My guess though is that Hamiltons skill was the main reason for taking that car to pole.

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Re: 2017 Chinese Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Migen »

Great qualies and great laps from the top 3 + Alonso and Hulk too.

Just an advice to Vettel though...
He needs to stop nit-picking his qualy laps and take a leaf out of Alonso's book with comments of the sort "samurai in the red car that keeps splitting the silver arrows", because he`s still pulling similar margins to Kimi on the 1st 2 qualies, as an "animal driving" Alonso is doing to his team-mate, and yet, only the later is regarded as a "god amongst men" :-P

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Re: 2017 Chinese Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by F1Tyrant »

mds wrote:But this seems to be becoming a trend after qualifying: find just the minor imperfection in Vettel's Q3 lap then use it to cast doubt on whether the Mercedes really is the fastest single lap car.
The meta-narrative is that Hamilton is quicker than Vettel so therefore any close gap is down to the driver. People will perform mental gymnastics to suit their biases.

I do think Hamilton is the faster driver by a tenth or two but until they share a car, it's impossible to know.

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Re: 2017 Chinese Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Ocon »

F1Tyrant wrote:
mds wrote:But this seems to be becoming a trend after qualifying: find just the minor imperfection in Vettel's Q3 lap then use it to cast doubt on whether the Mercedes really is the fastest single lap car.
The meta-narrative is that Hamilton is quicker than Vettel so therefore any close gap is down to the driver. People will perform mental gymnastics to suit their biases.

I do think Hamilton is the faster driver by a tenth or two but until they share a car, it's impossible to know.
This is so true. Especially a sport like F1 is really easy to find things to suit your argument because there are so many factors that come in to play, things can be twisted any way you like to make a case. This is why all the discussions on who is the best driver just goes round and round, and nobody can prove anything.

For example, I can make a statement that Ericsson is the fastest driver on the grid, and it would be impossible for someone to prove that he isn't.

Migen
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Re: 2017 Chinese Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Migen »

Does anybody know what was the track temperature during the qualies (or more specifically, Q3 if possible)?

Its been the pattern of the last 2 seasons for Ferrari to be unable to make a considerable jump on lap times from Q2 to Q3 (as Mercedes always does) on cooler conditions.
I got the feeling that on "hotter" quali sessions to come, Ferrari might be on par or even faster than Mercedes.

Bacus
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Re: 2017 Chinese Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Bacus »

Ferrari is definitely closer (or about the same) to Merc compared to Oz, in qualy trim.
As I said Ferrari's asset is the mechanical grip. This track requires more of that compared to Oz.
At tracks like Spain or Malaysia they will be even faster.

It should be interesting in the race, if it's dry Vettel may put pressure again on Hamilton.

Pullrod
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Re: 2017 Chinese Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Pullrod »

Kimi is no benchmark.
His fans are talking about him like it is 2005 again but sadly he would even struggle to outqualify Perez.

He should/can not be used to assess the Ferrari performance looking at his gap from Vettel. It is a futile exercise really.

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infi24r
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Re: 2017 Chinese Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by infi24r »

I see little evidence of the Merc being clearly the fastest car.

You can't judge laps on 'small errors' as apex speed matters far more and is nearly invisible as spectators.

I don't think its unreasonable the order of the drivers in 1 lap performance is Hamilton, Vettel, Bottas, Raikkonen.

If you asked me to grade them thats the order I would place them in

Pullrod
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Re: 2017 Chinese Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Pullrod »

I would pay a lot of money(if only) to see Hamilton driving for Ferrari in Q3.

I think that people still dont realize what they are witnessing but time will do Lewis justice.

mikeyg123
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Re: 2017 Chinese Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Pullrod wrote:Kimi is no benchmark.
His fans are talking about him like it is 2005 again but sadly he would even struggle to outqualify Perez.

He should/can not be used to assess the Ferrari performance looking at his gap from Vettel. It is a futile exercise really.
Surely if Kimi is an average qualifier in the current field then he is a perfect benchmark?

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infi24r
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Re: 2017 Chinese Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by infi24r »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:Kimi is no benchmark.
His fans are talking about him like it is 2005 again but sadly he would even struggle to outqualify Perez.

He should/can not be used to assess the Ferrari performance looking at his gap from Vettel. It is a futile exercise really.
Surely if Kimi is an average qualifier in the current field then he is a perfect benchmark?

Not really. Not when all the other drivers in the top car are above average.

mikeyg123
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Re: 2017 Chinese Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

infi24r wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:Kimi is no benchmark.
His fans are talking about him like it is 2005 again but sadly he would even struggle to outqualify Perez.

He should/can not be used to assess the Ferrari performance looking at his gap from Vettel. It is a futile exercise really.
Surely if Kimi is an average qualifier in the current field then he is a perfect benchmark?

Not really. Not when all the other drivers in the top car are above average.
I don't see why. He's still a marker point. Beating him good, matching him average, losing to him bad.

But even then remember that Kimi out qualified Vettel last year.

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Lotus49
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Re: 2017 Chinese Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Lotus49 »

infi24r wrote:I see little evidence of the Merc being clearly the fastest car.

You can't judge laps on 'small errors' as apex speed matters far more and is nearly invisible as spectators.

I don't think its unreasonable the order of the drivers in 1 lap performance is Hamilton, Vettel, Bottas, Raikkonen.

If you asked me to grade them thats the order I would place them in
Given your order, which I agree with btw, and the fact Bottas left time out there, how are we supposed to think anything other than a small advantage to Mercedes in qualifying given Seb and Bottas finished almost identically on the time sheet?.

Unless Seb's lap was so poor to the extent of giving up... the Ferrari car advantage+2ths Bottas left on track+whatever gap you think Seb has over Bottas generally.

Say we think Ferrari has a tenth over Mercedes and Seb has 2 over Bottas then your looking at Seb leaving half a second on the table on that Q3 lap and that's an awful lot.
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

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mds
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Re: 2017 Chinese Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by mds »

infi24r wrote:I see little evidence of the Merc being clearly the fastest car.
Pole despite dropping two tenths on his teammate in S3 is "little evidence"?

Give me one argument in favor of the Ferrari being equal other than personal opinion that Bottas is as fast as Vettel?
Go Vandoorne :( - Verstappen - Vettel!

sandman1347
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Re: 2017 Chinese Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by sandman1347 »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Superb lap from Hamilton. I think he made the difference when it came to it.
Looking at the relative gaps to their teammates I think both Hamilton and Vettel were at the limits of their cars.

Mercedes still seem to gain a lot in Q3 which leads me to believe they still have a qualifying mode. It does appear to me at the moment that the Ferrari is the better race car though, while Mercedes have the better qualifying car due to that extra bit they find in Q3.
I think that's a pretty solid read on things. It's similar to 2013 at the beginning of the season where Mercedes could qualify extremely well but would lose out on tire life during the races. I don't know that Merc actually have an advantage in qualifying right now though. It seemed to me that either car could have set pole. I'm very interested in seeing this race tomorrow!

Pullrod
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Re: 2017 Chinese Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Pullrod »

Migen wrote:Great qualies and great laps from the top 3 + Alonso and Hulk too.

Just an advice to Vettel though...
He needs to stop nit-picking his qualy laps and take a leaf out of Alonso's book with comments of the sort "samurai in the red car that keeps splitting the silver arrows", because he`s still pulling similar margins to Kimi on the 1st 2 qualies, as an "animal driving" Alonso is doing to his team-mate, and yet, only the later is regarded as a "god amongst men" :-P
Ah ah ah.. Alonso is simply the best marketing expert on the grid.
He risks to blow Vandoorne head and the gap may grow even bigger. :D

Rockie
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Re: 2017 Chinese Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Rockie »

Lotus49 wrote:
infi24r wrote:I see little evidence of the Merc being clearly the fastest car.

You can't judge laps on 'small errors' as apex speed matters far more and is nearly invisible as spectators.

I don't think its unreasonable the order of the drivers in 1 lap performance is Hamilton, Vettel, Bottas, Raikkonen.

If you asked me to grade them thats the order I would place them in
Given your order, which I agree with btw, and the fact Bottas left time out there, how are we supposed to think anything other than a small advantage to Mercedes in qualifying given Seb and Bottas finished almost identically on the time sheet?.

Unless Seb's lap was so poor to the extent of giving up... the Ferrari car advantage+2ths Bottas left on track+whatever gap you think Seb has over Bottas generally.

Say we think Ferrari has a tenth over Mercedes and Seb has 2 over Bottas then your looking at Seb leaving half a second on the table on that Q3 lap and that's an awful lot.
Very well put!

sandman1347
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Re: 2017 Chinese Grand Prix Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by sandman1347 »

mds wrote:
infi24r wrote:I see little evidence of the Merc being clearly the fastest car.
Pole despite dropping two tenths on his teammate in S3 is "little evidence"?

Give me one argument in favor of the Ferrari being equal other than personal opinion that Bottas is as fast as Vettel?
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.ph ... nal-q3-lap

Vettel seems to think he left some time out there and we know that Kimi did as well. The question is; who was most on it in qualifying trim? I don't see this clear advantage by Mercedes that you speak of. Either of the 4 cars could have set pole to me. If one of the cars is better, it's only by a tenth or so. There's really nothing in it. The main thing is that the Ferrari seemed to have an advantage during the race last time out. We'll have to see if that persists.

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