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A certain blog F1-life.net has speculated that Sauber is going to join hands with Honda that will provide them engines at a low cost. This would enable Honda to gather more data engine data to solve their woes.

Good for Sauber. Atleast they'll use the latest engine specs instead of older Ferrari ones.

This deal with Sauber not sure if it'll pave the path for McLaren to split with Honda as the McLaren Mercedes rumours still persist.

http://www.thedrive.com/start-finish/88 ... d-in-april

I doubt that they would be able to make it fit without significant chassis changes, the engines this year are completely redesigned from the '16 models like Sauber are using, which would probably cost more than just continuing to use the engines that they are using already. On the other hand the more data Honda can get the better. One of the stupidest things that's happened in recent years was McLaren blocking Toro Rosso from using Honda engines back when RBR and Renault were fueding... I can of course understand why they blocked RBR from using the engines.

I never believe these huge mid-season change rumors, and this one is no exception. Aside from Verstappen to Red Bull last year, I can't remember a single one that's actually been true.

First off, this story is based on a story about a story about an assumption, with zero input from either Ferrari, Sauber, Honda, or McLaren. This story is tenuous.

But there are some aspects that may fit together and make sense.

It is to Honda's advantage to get at least one more team using their engines to build up experience and data. Those are required for engineers to solve problems and make the product better. Honda may consider giving these engines cheap to Sauber as beneficial to the entire program. And if Sauber does manage to procure Honda engine cheaply, it not only eases their financial woes, but positions them well for the future. It does give them leverage against Ferrari to either get their engines cheaper, or even get modern engines, instead of year old technology. And by Formula One terms of reference, anything more than three months old is basically obsolete.

Ron Dennis was the principal figure who blocked Honda from being anything but providing to just McLaren. But with him now far out of the picture, McLaren have the option of allowing another team (Sauber) into the Honda pool party, and one possible benefit would be to shorten the protracted development of the maligned Honda engine. Because right now, the pace of Honda's engine program is just not keeping up with the requirements of a competitive Formula One environment.

IMO such a move would benefit Sauber, McLaren, and Honda. For Ferrari, it's more than difficult to guess what goes on in the executive offices in Maranello.

When did we last see a mid-season manufacturer engine change? I can't recall if when RBR switched from Ferrari to Renault if that was in season or not. The Brawn one is somewhat close but I think I recall it being a challenge and they had to go Merc over their original preferred choice due to mounting issues? I'm sure someone with a better memory and more knowledge can clear this all up for me.

mac_d wrote:When did we last see a mid-season manufacturer engine change?

1990. Life went from their own engine to Judd after a few races, and Coloni switched from Subaru to Ford.

As per the article below, Sauber & Honda had a few meetings in Australia which were a success. An announcement is imminent in April.

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-autos ... nvolvement

Normally I'm sceptical of reports like this, but IMO it makes perfect sense and is a win-win. What do Sauber have to lose? They are driving around with a year old PU now, so haven't really a prayer of being competitive. And they could probably negotiate a really sweet deal, knowing that they will essentially be testing for most of the season. But is that really much worse than forever bringing up the rear? I shouldn't be surprised if the PUs were free. And they always have the hope that, once Honda sorts it's issues out, they will suddenly have a very competitive unit, more so than by using older tech.

Honda win, because they get invaluable extra data to accelerate their PU program. McLaren win, because if their PU partner wins then so do they, and if they are afraid that Sauber may show them up they need to be taking a good hard look at themselves. And Ferrari don't really lose, since they don't have to support obsolete technology anymore.

I can't see a downside for anybody, tbh. Hope it happens

Zoue wrote:Normally I'm sceptical of reports like this, but IMO it makes perfect sense and is a win-win. What do Sauber have to lose? They are driving around with a year old PU now, so haven't really a prayer of being competitive. And they could probably negotiate a really sweet deal, knowing that they will essentially be testing for most of the season. But is that really much worse than forever bringing up the rear? I shouldn't be surprised if the PUs were free. And they always have the hope that, once Honda sorts it's issues out, they will suddenly have a very competitive unit, more so than by using older tech.

Honda win, because they get invaluable extra data to accelerate their PU program. McLaren win, because if their PU partner wins then so do they, and if they are afraid that Sauber may show them up they need to be taking a good hard look at themselves. And Ferrari don't really lose, since they don't have to support obsolete technology anymore.

I can't see a downside for anybody, tbh. Hope it happens

How exciting this could be - Sauber-Honda & McLaren-Mercedes!

UnlikeUday wrote:

Zoue wrote:Normally I'm sceptical of reports like this, but IMO it makes perfect sense and is a win-win. What do Sauber have to lose? They are driving around with a year old PU now, so haven't really a prayer of being competitive. And they could probably negotiate a really sweet deal, knowing that they will essentially be testing for most of the season. But is that really much worse than forever bringing up the rear? I shouldn't be surprised if the PUs were free. And they always have the hope that, once Honda sorts it's issues out, they will suddenly have a very competitive unit, more so than by using older tech.

Honda win, because they get invaluable extra data to accelerate their PU program. McLaren win, because if their PU partner wins then so do they, and if they are afraid that Sauber may show them up they need to be taking a good hard look at themselves. And Ferrari don't really lose, since they don't have to support obsolete technology anymore.

I can't see a downside for anybody, tbh. Hope it happens

How exciting this could be - Sauber-Honda & McLaren-Mercedes!

McLaren-Mercedes would be a disaster for me. It would mean McLaren accepting their fate as a perennial also-ran and consigning themselves to the prospect of being at best the best of the rest, battling it out with Williams in the mid-field. Think it would be a sad day for F1.

Zoue wrote:

UnlikeUday wrote:

Zoue wrote:Normally I'm sceptical of reports like this, but IMO it makes perfect sense and is a win-win. What do Sauber have to lose? They are driving around with a year old PU now, so haven't really a prayer of being competitive. And they could probably negotiate a really sweet deal, knowing that they will essentially be testing for most of the season. But is that really much worse than forever bringing up the rear? I shouldn't be surprised if the PUs were free. And they always have the hope that, once Honda sorts it's issues out, they will suddenly have a very competitive unit, more so than by using older tech.

Honda win, because they get invaluable extra data to accelerate their PU program. McLaren win, because if their PU partner wins then so do they, and if they are afraid that Sauber may show them up they need to be taking a good hard look at themselves. And Ferrari don't really lose, since they don't have to support obsolete technology anymore.

I can't see a downside for anybody, tbh. Hope it happens

How exciting this could be - Sauber-Honda & McLaren-Mercedes!

McLaren-Mercedes would be a disaster for me. It would mean McLaren accepting their fate as a perennial also-ran and consigning themselves to the prospect of being at best the best of the rest, battling it out with Williams in the mid-field. Think it would be a sad day for F1.

Isn't it sadder already (McLaren Honda)?

If they were to get Mercedes, I'm sure they would be ahead of Williams sooner than later.

UnlikeUday wrote:

Zoue wrote:

UnlikeUday wrote:

Zoue wrote:Normally I'm sceptical of reports like this, but IMO it makes perfect sense and is a win-win. What do Sauber have to lose? They are driving around with a year old PU now, so haven't really a prayer of being competitive. And they could probably negotiate a really sweet deal, knowing that they will essentially be testing for most of the season. But is that really much worse than forever bringing up the rear? I shouldn't be surprised if the PUs were free. And they always have the hope that, once Honda sorts it's issues out, they will suddenly have a very competitive unit, more so than by using older tech.

Honda win, because they get invaluable extra data to accelerate their PU program. McLaren win, because if their PU partner wins then so do they, and if they are afraid that Sauber may show them up they need to be taking a good hard look at themselves. And Ferrari don't really lose, since they don't have to support obsolete technology anymore.

I can't see a downside for anybody, tbh. Hope it happens

How exciting this could be - Sauber-Honda & McLaren-Mercedes!

McLaren-Mercedes would be a disaster for me. It would mean McLaren accepting their fate as a perennial also-ran and consigning themselves to the prospect of being at best the best of the rest, battling it out with Williams in the mid-field. Think it would be a sad day for F1.

Isn't it sadder already (McLaren Honda)?

If they were to get Mercedes, I'm sure they would be ahead of Williams sooner than later.

No, not really. Mercedes power would certainly lift them temporarily, but in the long term they'd be admitting defeat. And I don't think getting ahead of Williams is where they should be aiming. Sticking with Honda is their only option for the long term IMO

Zoue wrote:

UnlikeUday wrote:

Zoue wrote:

UnlikeUday wrote:

Zoue wrote:Normally I'm sceptical of reports like this, but IMO it makes perfect sense and is a win-win. What do Sauber have to lose? They are driving around with a year old PU now, so haven't really a prayer of being competitive. And they could probably negotiate a really sweet deal, knowing that they will essentially be testing for most of the season. But is that really much worse than forever bringing up the rear? I shouldn't be surprised if the PUs were free. And they always have the hope that, once Honda sorts it's issues out, they will suddenly have a very competitive unit, more so than by using older tech.

Honda win, because they get invaluable extra data to accelerate their PU program. McLaren win, because if their PU partner wins then so do they, and if they are afraid that Sauber may show them up they need to be taking a good hard look at themselves. And Ferrari don't really lose, since they don't have to support obsolete technology anymore.

I can't see a downside for anybody, tbh. Hope it happens

How exciting this could be - Sauber-Honda & McLaren-Mercedes!

McLaren-Mercedes would be a disaster for me. It would mean McLaren accepting their fate as a perennial also-ran and consigning themselves to the prospect of being at best the best of the rest, battling it out with Williams in the mid-field. Think it would be a sad day for F1.

Isn't it sadder already (McLaren Honda)?

If they were to get Mercedes, I'm sure they would be ahead of Williams sooner than later.

No, not really. Mercedes power would certainly lift them temporarily, but in the long term they'd be admitting defeat. And I don't think getting ahead of Williams is where they should be aiming. Sticking with Honda is their only option for the long term IMO

Williams would ofcourse be a temporary target. Atleast, it's much better than fighting with Sauber.

Even if McLaren wait this year out for Honda to get its act together, how much could McLaren wait? If Honda is still trying to find reasons for its dismal performance, McLaren risk losing Alonso for sure.

If McLaren leave Honda for Mercedes, I think all the bad spotlight would fall on Honda. It won't be a cakewalk for McLaren to shift engines altogether even but McLaren can't play such a long waiting game.

On the face of it this seems a strange move at a strange time.

It makes a nonsense of Sauber's stated strategy for 2017 - that is of concentrating on designing their chassis around a PU they knew very well - the 2016 Ferrari, it's also odd timing in that the Honda engine is currently a sickly one.

On the other hand though, it always seemed an odd strategy to me as it more or less guaranteed them to be at the back of the grid with the engine development restrictions being lifted, if not at the beginning of the season then definitely as upgrades came on stream for everyone else.

Maybe it wasn't true and it was always a stop-gap for some reason but they didn't want to openly say that, perhaps they couldn't get the Honda deal done in time for the car to be designed around the Honda PU in time for the start of the season so this was the only way of doing it. (Because of Ron Dennis?)

There are other reasons why the switch benefits all parties already mentioned above.

I don't see it as a precursor to a McHonda divorce, more a way to get the project moving forwards quicker.

I read that the announcement is expected in April, it doesn't say when the actual switch will happen, does it? Or did I miss it?

It will be good for Honda and McLaren if this is true.

But honestly If I were Sauber I'd rather try to get 2017 Merc or 2017 Ferrari engines...

It certainly won't be happening this season, Monisha has already said no that ain't happening. Sauber are crazy if they go anywhere near that honda lemon regardless of the price. Honda are going to deploy, design number 3 later this season? This latest incarnation of the lemon has lasted one test and honda have already decided they have to re-design it again, i.e they have no clue.

mds wrote:

mac_d wrote:When did we last see a mid-season manufacturer engine change?

1990. Life went from their own engine to Judd after a few races, and Coloni switched from Subaru to Ford.

Wow I certainly missed that Subaru had an engine in F1

Motorsport has now picked up on the story and say that Sauber are considering Mercedes or Honda power for 2018, and that as the manufacturers have to notify the FIA of which teams they intend to supply by May 6th, a decision is likely to be made by then.

Doesn't seem to suggest anything about using either during the 2017 season, but rather agreeing on supply for 2018 onwards during the 2017 season.

JohnnyGuitar wrote: It makes a nonsense of Sauber's stated strategy for 2017 - that is of concentrating on designing their chassis around a PU they knew very well - the 2016 Ferrari, it's also odd timing in that the Honda engine is currently a sickly one.

On the other hand though, it always seemed an odd strategy to me as it more or less guaranteed them to be at the back of the grid with the engine development restrictions being lifted, if not at the beginning of the season then definitely as upgrades came on stream for everyone else.

Maybe it wasn't true and it was always a stop-gap for some reason but they didn't want to openly say that, perhaps they couldn't get the Honda deal done in time for the car to be designed around the Honda PU in time for the start of the season so this was the only way of doing it. (Because of Ron Dennis?)

I never bought the rationale they gave to use the 2016 PU. Given their financial situation there is a much more obvious explanation: using 2016 units is a LOT cheaper. I believe this is the sole reason they are using them.

Kaltenborn says

“No, we have engaged in no such talks for this season. We have our engine supply and we are going to be there.

“No, we would not [be interested in such talks]. Our situation is clear and we don’t need to change it because others have problems.”

The team boss, though, did concede that Sauber are talking to Honda about a possible deal for 2018 and beyond.

“We are talking,” she said. “We are talking – we are open with our open with our engine situation and we have a couple of options.



(from the parent page

mcdo wrote:

mds wrote:

mac_d wrote:When did we last see a mid-season manufacturer engine change?

1990. Life went from their own engine to Judd after a few races, and Coloni switched from Subaru to Ford.

Wow I certainly missed that Subaru had an engine in F1

Can't blame you - it was a colossal failure. Didn't even prequalify once, most times several seconds away from prequalifying or even failing to do one fast lap.

2 years too late.

Zoue wrote:

UnlikeUday wrote:

Zoue wrote:

UnlikeUday wrote:

Zoue wrote:Normally I'm sceptical of reports like this, but IMO it makes perfect sense and is a win-win. What do Sauber have to lose? They are driving around with a year old PU now, so haven't really a prayer of being competitive. And they could probably negotiate a really sweet deal, knowing that they will essentially be testing for most of the season. But is that really much worse than forever bringing up the rear? I shouldn't be surprised if the PUs were free. And they always have the hope that, once Honda sorts it's issues out, they will suddenly have a very competitive unit, more so than by using older tech.

Honda win, because they get invaluable extra data to accelerate their PU program. McLaren win, because if their PU partner wins then so do they, and if they are afraid that Sauber may show them up they need to be taking a good hard look at themselves. And Ferrari don't really lose, since they don't have to support obsolete technology anymore.

I can't see a downside for anybody, tbh. Hope it happens

How exciting this could be - Sauber-Honda & McLaren-Mercedes!

McLaren-Mercedes would be a disaster for me. It would mean McLaren accepting their fate as a perennial also-ran and consigning themselves to the prospect of being at best the best of the rest, battling it out with Williams in the mid-field. Think it would be a sad day for F1.

Isn't it sadder already (McLaren Honda)?

If they were to get Mercedes, I'm sure they would be ahead of Williams sooner than later.

No, not really. Mercedes power would certainly lift them temporarily, but in the long term they'd be admitting defeat. And I don't think getting ahead of Williams is where they should be aiming. Sticking with Honda is their only option for the long term IMO

Sticking with Honda, IMO, guarantees that McLaren are 100% out of every race from Friday practice until the end of the race on Sunday. They will never, EVER, be competitive with Honda powering their cars. All IMO.

mcdo wrote:

mds wrote:

mac_d wrote:When did we last see a mid-season manufacturer engine change?

1990. Life went from their own engine to Judd after a few races, and Coloni switched from Subaru to Ford.

Wow I certainly missed that Subaru had an engine in F1

Me too! I had no idea and thought that was some sort of misspelling at first!!

Herb Tarlik wrote:

Zoue wrote:

UnlikeUday wrote:

Zoue wrote:

UnlikeUday wrote:e.

I can't see a downside for anybody, tbh. Hope it happens

How exciting this could be - Sauber-Honda & McLaren-Mercedes!

McLaren-Mercedes would be a disaster for me. It would mean McLaren accepting their fate as a perennial also-ran and consigning themselves to the prospect of being at best the best of the rest, battling it out with Williams in the mid-field. Think it would be a sad day for F1.

Isn't it sadder already (McLaren Honda)?

If they were to get Mercedes, I'm sure they would be ahead of Williams sooner than later.

No, not really. Mercedes power would certainly lift them temporarily, but in the long term they'd be admitting defeat. And I don't think getting ahead of Williams is where they should be aiming. Sticking with Honda is their only option for the long term IMO

Sticking with Honda, IMO, guarantees that McLaren are 100% out of every race from Friday practice until the end of the race on Sunday. They will never, EVER, be competitive with Honda powering their cars. All IMO.[/quote]

But as many keep telling us, when Honda fix the ONE problem, it wil give them the bast part of a second a lap, then they can go for power.

It mat be optimistic, but I really do believe that by Socki they will be up among the likes of Force India and knowing where they need to go to improve.

Time may prove me wrong (again ) but even if they had the merc engine today, they would only be be pushed to be scrapping with Williams by mid year anyway. Why throw away 3 years, and a shed load of money? Besides, at any time Merc could announce they are taking their ball and going home.

Herb Tarlik wrote:

Zoue wrote:

UnlikeUday wrote:

Zoue wrote:

UnlikeUday wrote:
How exciting this could be - Sauber-Honda & McLaren-Mercedes!

McLaren-Mercedes would be a disaster for me. It would mean McLaren accepting their fate as a perennial also-ran and consigning themselves to the prospect of being at best the best of the rest, battling it out with Williams in the mid-field. Think it would be a sad day for F1.

Isn't it sadder already (McLaren Honda)?

If they were to get Mercedes, I'm sure they would be ahead of Williams sooner than later.

No, not really. Mercedes power would certainly lift them temporarily, but in the long term they'd be admitting defeat. And I don't think getting ahead of Williams is where they should be aiming. Sticking with Honda is their only option for the long term IMO

Sticking with Honda, IMO, guarantees that McLaren are 100% out of every race from Friday practice until the end of the race on Sunday. They will never, EVER, be competitive with Honda powering their cars. All IMO.

You are starting to sound a lot like someone who used to post a lot here last year...

[quote="Herb Tarlik"

Sticking with Honda, IMO, guarantees that McLaren are 100% out of every race from Friday practice until the end of the race on Sunday. They will never, EVER, be competitive with Honda powering their cars. All IMO.[/quote]

Where as giving up a works deal and accepting their status as customers will start the eventual slide to Williamshood.

At least now Mclaren can have aspirations to get to the top. Williams don't

Covalent wrote:

Herb Tarlik wrote:

Zoue wrote:

UnlikeUday wrote:

Zoue wrote: McLaren-Mercedes would be a disaster for me. It would mean McLaren accepting their fate as a perennial also-ran and consigning themselves to the prospect of being at best the best of the rest, battling it out with Williams in the mid-field. Think it would be a sad day for F1.

Isn't it sadder already (McLaren Honda)?

If they were to get Mercedes, I'm sure they would be ahead of Williams sooner than later.

No, not really. Mercedes power would certainly lift them temporarily, but in the long term they'd be admitting defeat. And I don't think getting ahead of Williams is where they should be aiming. Sticking with Honda is their only option for the long term IMO

Sticking with Honda, IMO, guarantees that McLaren are 100% out of every race from Friday practice until the end of the race on Sunday. They will never, EVER, be competitive with Honda powering their cars. All IMO.

You are starting to sound a lot like someone who used to post a lot here last year...

I'm hardly the only person who views this partnership as a disaster. I'm not going to put anyone down who still believes in it, but really, the facts are showing pretty clearly that the train is off the rails at Mclaren Honda.

moby wrote:


But as many keep telling us, when Honda fix the ONE problem, it wil give them the bast part of a second a lap, then they can go for power.

It mat be optimistic, but I really do believe that by Socki they will be up among the likes of Force India and knowing where they need to go to improve.

Time may prove me wrong (again ) but even if they had the merc engine today, they would only be be pushed to be scrapping with Williams by mid year anyway. Why throw away 3 years, and a shed load of money? Besides, at any time Merc could announce they are taking their ball and going home.

We'll see. If Honda ends the year with a clear trajectory of improvement over the 2017 season, then they've earned the chance to keep going. But if they end 2017 as they started it, then I think we have reached the point where they need to leave. For their own sake as well as McLaren's.

Herb Tarlik wrote:
Sticking with Honda, IMO, guarantees that McLaren are 100% out of every race from Friday practice until the end of the race on Sunday. They will never, EVER, be competitive with Honda powering their cars. All IMO.

There may be some truth to that. Honda has not shown that they can ever get their head around making even a reliable engine, let alone a powerful one. What is worst is that they could not build on the progress they made last year. It is a bad sign and suggests they are going in circles. They may never get the engine up to par. That is a distinct possibility.

I am one to agree that switching to Mercedes power does not banish Mclaren to the midfield. That is bogus. They have won with Mercedes power in the past, it can happen again.

kleefton wrote:

Herb Tarlik wrote:
Sticking with Honda, IMO, guarantees that McLaren are 100% out of every race from Friday practice until the end of the race on Sunday. They will never, EVER, be competitive with Honda powering their cars. All IMO.

There may be some truth to that. Honda has not shown that they can ever get their head around making even a reliable engine, let alone a powerful one. What is worst is that they could not build on the progress they made last year. It is a bad sign and suggests they are going in circles. They may never get the engine up to par. That is a distinct possibility.

I am one to agree that switching to Mercedes power does not banish Mclaren to the midfield. That is bogus. They have won with Mercedes power in the past, it can happen again.

No wins as a Mercedes customer.

But that's not the point. Without a works deal Mclaren do not have the long term budget to compete with the likes of Red Bull, Ferrari and Mercedes. It is in that respect that Williams are a good example. Stuck in the midfield, no ambition of getting back to winning titles and hiring pay drivers.

mikeyg123 wrote:

kleefton wrote:

Herb Tarlik wrote:
Sticking with Honda, IMO, guarantees that McLaren are 100% out of every race from Friday practice until the end of the race on Sunday. They will never, EVER, be competitive with Honda powering their cars. All IMO.

There may be some truth to that. Honda has not shown that they can ever get their head around making even a reliable engine, let alone a powerful one. What is worst is that they could not build on the progress they made last year. It is a bad sign and suggests they are going in circles. They may never get the engine up to par. That is a distinct possibility.

I am one to agree that switching to Mercedes power does not banish Mclaren to the midfield. That is bogus. They have won with Mercedes power in the past, it can happen again.

No wins as a Mercedes customer.

But that's not the point. Without a works deal Mclaren do not have the long term budget to compete with the likes of Red Bull, Ferrari and Mercedes. It is in that respect that Williams are a good example. Stuck in the midfield, no ambition of getting back to winning titles and hiring pay drivers.

No wins in this era, but in the past they had plenty of wins as a Mercedes customer. You cannot compare Williams to Mclaren. Williams is a small team with a budget that is 3 times smaller than most of the big teams. That is the main reason why Williams will most likely never be competing for the title. Not because they have a customer engine. Mclaren is a heck of a lot more resourceful than Williams and I believe they can come up with a budget to win, even without Honda. Again, they did it in the past.

Herb Tarlik wrote:

moby wrote:


But as many keep telling us, when Honda fix the ONE problem, it wil give them the bast part of a second a lap, then they can go for power.

It mat be optimistic, but I really do believe that by Socki they will be up among the likes of Force India and knowing where they need to go to improve.

Time may prove me wrong (again ) but even if they had the merc engine today, they would only be be pushed to be scrapping with Williams by mid year anyway. Why throw away 3 years, and a shed load of money? Besides, at any time Merc could announce they are taking their ball and going home.

We'll see. If Honda ends the year with a clear trajectory of improvement over the 2017 season, then they've earned the chance to keep going. But if they end 2017 as they started it, then I think we have reached the point where they need to leave. For their own sake as well as McLaren's.

herb tarlik....herb tarlek from wkrp in cincinnati ? great show

kleefton wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

kleefton wrote:

Herb Tarlik wrote:
Sticking with Honda, IMO, guarantees that McLaren are 100% out of every race from Friday practice until the end of the race on Sunday. They will never, EVER, be competitive with Honda powering their cars. All IMO.

There may be some truth to that. Honda has not shown that they can ever get their head around making even a reliable engine, let alone a powerful one. What is worst is that they could not build on the progress they made last year. It is a bad sign and suggests they are going in circles. They may never get the engine up to par. That is a distinct possibility.

I am one to agree that switching to Mercedes power does not banish Mclaren to the midfield. That is bogus. They have won with Mercedes power in the past, it can happen again.

No wins as a Mercedes customer.

But that's not the point. Without a works deal Mclaren do not have the long term budget to compete with the likes of Red Bull, Ferrari and Mercedes. It is in that respect that Williams are a good example. Stuck in the midfield, no ambition of getting back to winning titles and hiring pay drivers.

No wins in this era, but in the past they had plenty of wins as a Mercedes customer. You cannot compare Williams to Mclaren. Williams is a small team with a budget that is 3 times smaller than most of the big teams. That is the main reason why Williams will most likely never be competing for the title. Not because they have a customer engine. Mclaren is a heck of a lot more resourceful than Williams and I believe they can come up with a budget to win, even without Honda. Again, they did it in the past.

When have Mclaren won as a Mercedes customer? They've always had the works deal. Williams and Mclaren were very comparable until 2005 when Williams lost the works BMW deal. Their overall decline since that could easily be replicated by Mclaren and certainly serves as a warning.

mikeyg123 wrote:[quote="Herb Tarlik"

Sticking with Honda, IMO, guarantees that McLaren are 100% out of every race from Friday practice until the end of the race on Sunday. They will never, EVER, be competitive with Honda powering their cars. All IMO.

Where as giving up a works deal and accepting their status as customers will start the eventual slide to Williamshood.

At least now Mclaren can have aspirations to get to the top. Williams don't[/quote]

Aren't the aspirations stuck on 1 plain since 3 years now?

Had they be making some (visible) progress, it would be fine to stick to Honda. What's the point of being a work's team if there's no confidence for anything & no progress whatsoever!

McLaren are very prone to losing Alonso now. How much can he bear / take it?

pc27b wrote:

Herb Tarlik wrote:

moby wrote:


But as many keep telling us, when Honda fix the ONE problem, it wil give them the bast part of a second a lap, then they can go for power.

It mat be optimistic, but I really do believe that by Socki they will be up among the likes of Force India and knowing where they need to go to improve.

Time may prove me wrong (again ) but even if they had the merc engine today, they would only be be pushed to be scrapping with Williams by mid year anyway. Why throw away 3 years, and a shed load of money? Besides, at any time Merc could announce they are taking their ball and going home.

We'll see. If Honda ends the year with a clear trajectory of improvement over the 2017 season, then they've earned the chance to keep going. But if they end 2017 as they started it, then I think we have reached the point where they need to leave. For their own sake as well as McLaren's.

herb tarlik....herb tarlek from wkrp in cincinnati ? great show

UnlikeUday wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:[quote="Herb Tarlik"

Sticking with Honda, IMO, guarantees that McLaren are 100% out of every race from Friday practice until the end of the race on Sunday. They will never, EVER, be competitive with Honda powering their cars. All IMO.

Where as giving up a works deal and accepting their status as customers will start the eventual slide to Williamshood.

At least now Mclaren can have aspirations to get to the top. Williams don't

Aren't the aspirations stuck on 1 plain since 3 years now?

Had they be making some (visible) progress, it would be fine to stick to Honda. What's the point of being a work's team if there's no confidence for anything & no progress whatsoever!

McLaren are very prone to losing Alonso now. How much can he bear / take it?[/quote]

Better to have a little hope than none.

Reading between the line the answer from Kaltenbron, one could predict that from next year they will be having Honda engines. Of course, Honda has to give guarantees that it is here to stay which will then make them work hard on solving problems. For Sauber it's a win-win situation. They will make lot's of savings on Honda, and the prospect of performance development looks better than anywhere else.

Concerning Alonso, who would want him?
Mercedes surely not, Hamilton would block that move as long as he is there. Hamilton moves, than Vettel would be preferred due to younger age and because being a far better team player, too. Or some proven RBR driver, Ricciardo, for example.
Ferrari? He just left them sour.
RBR? No way, they have their own program.

That means that if Alonso wants to drive elsewhere, it won't be a championship winning team. At least that's mine impression.

Lt. Drebin wrote:Reading between the line the answer from Kaltenbron, one could predict that from next year they will be having Honda engines. Of course, Honda has to give guarantees that it is here to stay which will then make them work hard on solving problems. For Sauber it's a win-win situation. They will make lot's of savings on Honda, and the prospect of performance development looks better than anywhere else.

Concerning Alonso, who would want him?
Mercedes surely not, Hamilton would block that move as long as he is there. Hamilton moves, than Vettel would be preferred due to younger age and because being a far better team player, too. Or some proven RBR driver, Ricciardo, for example.
Ferrari? He just left them sour.
RBR? No way, they have their own program.

That means that if Alonso wants to drive elsewhere, it won't be a championship winning team. At least that's mine impression.

Is Vettel viewed as more of a team player than Alonso?