Official 2017 MotoGP Thread

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mds
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Re: Official 2017 MotoGP Thread

Post by mds »

pokerman wrote:Vinales clearly gained nothing relative to Rossi so there would have been nothing to penalise.
It is somewhat a valid question though - there they are in the very last lap, Vinales making a big error that should have left him out of contention and Rossi safe for the win, but in the end he didn't lose anything in the process. The same situation in F1 is often put this way: suppose there had been a wall there, he would have had to actually slow down and rejoin much further back.

He did nothing wrong, but making an error of the kind and not losing any time doing so doesn't seem fair either.

That being said I have nothing against Vinales, and I would love to see him become champion. So please don't take my opinion as the typical Valiban comment :)
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Re: Official 2017 MotoGP Thread

Post by Exediron »

mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:Vinales clearly gained nothing relative to Rossi so there would have been nothing to penalise.
It is somewhat a valid question though - there they are in the very last lap, Vinales making a big error that should have left him out of contention and Rossi safe for the win, but in the end he didn't lose anything in the process. The same situation in F1 is often put this way: suppose there had been a wall there, he would have had to actually slow down and rejoin much further back.
I find it vexing that the stewards almost always look only at whether a driver (or rider, in this case) gained an advantage, and not at whether they escaped consequences. If you make a mistake, go off track and stay in the same position, in my book you've benefited unfairly. It's a grey area in the rules that doesn't need to be grey, much like track limits. There are solutions to make it black and white, but nobody wants to implement them. :?
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Re: Official 2017 MotoGP Thread

Post by nixxxon »

Exediron wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:Vinales clearly gained nothing relative to Rossi so there would have been nothing to penalise.
It is somewhat a valid question though - there they are in the very last lap, Vinales making a big error that should have left him out of contention and Rossi safe for the win, but in the end he didn't lose anything in the process. The same situation in F1 is often put this way: suppose there had been a wall there, he would have had to actually slow down and rejoin much further back.
I find it vexing that the stewards almost always look only at whether a driver (or rider, in this case) gained an advantage, and not at whether they escaped consequences. If you make a mistake, go off track and stay in the same position, in my book you've benefited unfairly. It's a grey area in the rules that doesn't need to be grey, much like track limits. There are solutions to make it black and white, but nobody wants to implement them. :?
Nope - its the track design's fault for having such a runoff area, riders are not to blame if the make a mistake there and they keep going wihout any consequence (same as F1) - blame the track design for allowing that.

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Re: Official 2017 MotoGP Thread

Post by Exediron »

nixxxon wrote:Nope - its the track design's fault for having such a runoff area, riders are not to blame if the make a mistake there and they keep going wihout any consequence (same as F1) - blame the track design for allowing that.
I don't agree. The track is designed to let riders make a mistake and not suffer any physical consequences. The stewards should be able to make sure there's still a consequence for their race, it just doesn't need to involve any chance of real injury.
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Re: Official 2017 MotoGP Thread

Post by Fiki »

Exediron wrote:
nixxxon wrote:Nope - its the track design's fault for having such a runoff area, riders are not to blame if the make a mistake there and they keep going wihout any consequence (same as F1) - blame the track design for allowing that.
I don't agree. The track is designed to let riders make a mistake and not suffer any physical consequences. The stewards should be able to make sure there's still a consequence for their race, it just doesn't need to involve any chance of real injury.
I second that. I think the real problem, just as in F1, is that the ruling bodies are scared that penalties instead of injuries, will drive bums off seats.
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Re: Official 2017 MotoGP Thread

Post by pokerman »

mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:Vinales clearly gained nothing relative to Rossi so there would have been nothing to penalise.
It is somewhat a valid question though - there they are in the very last lap, Vinales making a big error that should have left him out of contention and Rossi safe for the win, but in the end he didn't lose anything in the process. The same situation in F1 is often put this way: suppose there had been a wall there, he would have had to actually slow down and rejoin much further back.

He did nothing wrong, but making an error of the kind and not losing any time doing so doesn't seem fair either.

That being said I have nothing against Vinales, and I would love to see him become champion. So please don't take my opinion as the typical Valiban comment :)
You can only blame the track itself, the specific rule is that you can not gain a time advantage on the rider in front when missing a corner which I believe Vinales did not do?

There was plenty of riders that did this in the various races, Marquez also missed the same corner I believe and he actually lost ground, you will see riders often making sure they haven't taken advantage by backing off a little bit if they think they have.

So the rule isn't black and white that if you miss a corner then you get an automatic penalty.
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Re: Official 2017 MotoGP Thread

Post by IDrinkYourMilkshake »

pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:Vinales clearly gained nothing relative to Rossi so there would have been nothing to penalise.
It is somewhat a valid question though - there they are in the very last lap, Vinales making a big error that should have left him out of contention and Rossi safe for the win, but in the end he didn't lose anything in the process. The same situation in F1 is often put this way: suppose there had been a wall there, he would have had to actually slow down and rejoin much further back.

He did nothing wrong, but making an error of the kind and not losing any time doing so doesn't seem fair either.

That being said I have nothing against Vinales, and I would love to see him become champion. So please don't take my opinion as the typical Valiban comment :)
You can only blame the track itself, the specific rule is that you can not gain a time advantage on the rider in front when missing a corner which I believe Vinales did not do?

There was plenty of riders that did this in the various races, Marquez also missed the same corner I believe and he actually lost ground, you will see riders often making sure they haven't taken advantage by backing off a little bit if they think they have.

So the rule isn't black and white that if you miss a corner then you get an automatic penalty.
Yep, this has always been a conundrum. Should a driver/rider, on committing an error, lose time, or just not gain time?

As much as merely not gaining helps drivers/riders of lesser capability, and hinders the consistent ones, I'm afraid it's the way to go.

Because then we'll have to decide how MUCH is the right amount to lose. It'll be arbitrary.

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Re: Official 2017 MotoGP Thread

Post by sandman1347 »

pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:Vinales clearly gained nothing relative to Rossi so there would have been nothing to penalise.
It is somewhat a valid question though - there they are in the very last lap, Vinales making a big error that should have left him out of contention and Rossi safe for the win, but in the end he didn't lose anything in the process. The same situation in F1 is often put this way: suppose there had been a wall there, he would have had to actually slow down and rejoin much further back.

He did nothing wrong, but making an error of the kind and not losing any time doing so doesn't seem fair either.

That being said I have nothing against Vinales, and I would love to see him become champion. So please don't take my opinion as the typical Valiban comment :)
You can only blame the track itself, the specific rule is that you can not gain a time advantage on the rider in front when missing a corner which I believe Vinales did not do?

There was plenty of riders that did this in the various races, Marquez also missed the same corner I believe and he actually lost ground, you will see riders often making sure they haven't taken advantage by backing off a little bit if they think they have.

So the rule isn't black and white that if you miss a corner then you get an automatic penalty.
Yeah I think the issue is that it's a little imbalanced. Maverick was able to remain in striking range despite making a significant error in the dying laps. Rossi made an error in the dying laps and lost a position because of it. I tend to agree with the sentiment that running off should have cost Maverick something. He basically got away with that without any negative consequence whatsoever.

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Re: Official 2017 MotoGP Thread

Post by nixxxon »

Fiki wrote:
Exediron wrote:
nixxxon wrote:Nope - its the track design's fault for having such a runoff area, riders are not to blame if the make a mistake there and they keep going wihout any consequence (same as F1) - blame the track design for allowing that.
I don't agree. The track is designed to let riders make a mistake and not suffer any physical consequences. The stewards should be able to make sure there's still a consequence for their race, it just doesn't need to involve any chance of real injury.
I second that. I think the real problem, just as in F1, is that the ruling bodies are scared that penalties instead of injuries, will drive bums off seats.
Why you guys want to penalise drivers/riders just for making a little mistake while trying hard? This doesnt encourage good and exciting racing but encourages processions and more boring/conservative racing.

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Re: Official 2017 MotoGP Thread

Post by pokerman »

IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:Vinales clearly gained nothing relative to Rossi so there would have been nothing to penalise.
It is somewhat a valid question though - there they are in the very last lap, Vinales making a big error that should have left him out of contention and Rossi safe for the win, but in the end he didn't lose anything in the process. The same situation in F1 is often put this way: suppose there had been a wall there, he would have had to actually slow down and rejoin much further back.

He did nothing wrong, but making an error of the kind and not losing any time doing so doesn't seem fair either.

That being said I have nothing against Vinales, and I would love to see him become champion. So please don't take my opinion as the typical Valiban comment :)
You can only blame the track itself, the specific rule is that you can not gain a time advantage on the rider in front when missing a corner which I believe Vinales did not do?

There was plenty of riders that did this in the various races, Marquez also missed the same corner I believe and he actually lost ground, you will see riders often making sure they haven't taken advantage by backing off a little bit if they think they have.

So the rule isn't black and white that if you miss a corner then you get an automatic penalty.
Yep, this has always been a conundrum. Should a driver/rider, on committing an error, lose time, or just not gain time?

As much as merely not gaining helps drivers/riders of lesser capability, and hinders the consistent ones, I'm afraid it's the way to go.

Because then we'll have to decide how MUCH is the right amount to lose. It'll be arbitrary.
I would also add that it's somewhat frowned upon if a rider were to do this repeatedly, I think it comes under exceeding track limits, if a rider does this 3 times then he has to lose one position to the rider behind no matter how far behind that rider might be.
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Re: Official 2017 MotoGP Thread

Post by pokerman »

sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:Vinales clearly gained nothing relative to Rossi so there would have been nothing to penalise.
It is somewhat a valid question though - there they are in the very last lap, Vinales making a big error that should have left him out of contention and Rossi safe for the win, but in the end he didn't lose anything in the process. The same situation in F1 is often put this way: suppose there had been a wall there, he would have had to actually slow down and rejoin much further back.

He did nothing wrong, but making an error of the kind and not losing any time doing so doesn't seem fair either.

That being said I have nothing against Vinales, and I would love to see him become champion. So please don't take my opinion as the typical Valiban comment :)
You can only blame the track itself, the specific rule is that you can not gain a time advantage on the rider in front when missing a corner which I believe Vinales did not do?

There was plenty of riders that did this in the various races, Marquez also missed the same corner I believe and he actually lost ground, you will see riders often making sure they haven't taken advantage by backing off a little bit if they think they have.

So the rule isn't black and white that if you miss a corner then you get an automatic penalty.
Yeah I think the issue is that it's a little imbalanced. Maverick was able to remain in striking range despite making a significant error in the dying laps. Rossi made an error in the dying laps and lost a position because of it. I tend to agree with the sentiment that running off should have cost Maverick something. He basically got away with that without any negative consequence whatsoever.
No it didn't punish him but neither did he gain ground on Rossi, maybe he lost a little ground but not much?

I repeat what I've just posted that repeat offenders are penalised, Vinales just made the one mistake and how would you actually punish him, how much does he have to fall back, every time you miss a corner you lose a second which would then have to be added at the end of the race because no way could a rider himself judge that?

That could make for some very confused results after the chequered flag.
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Re: Official 2017 MotoGP Thread

Post by tootsie323 »

I'll also point out that Rossi has been a beneficiary of this, albeit under different circumstances, at Assen (2015). He was rather forced to take to a gravel trap and cut a chicane but I believe that. at the time, there was some discussion over whether he should keep the win or not.

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Re: Official 2017 MotoGP Thread

Post by -ZeroGravityToilet- »

Beautiful races at Mugello, as always... It is one of those memorable circuits, the setting, the races it produces, the high speeds, the flowing and drafting nature... We have done this a few times with F1 tracks, but which ones are for you the most memorable Moto GP tracks?
While in F1 for me there are perhaps 4-5 really indispensable current or recent tracks, in Moto GP the number is probably higher:
- Assen
- Jerez
- Mugello
- Phillip Island
- Le Mans
- Laguna Seca (ugh)
- COTA
- Rio Hondo
- Sachsenring
...

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Re: Official 2017 MotoGP Thread

Post by mcdo »

It's remarkable how often MotoGP gives us brilliant races
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Re: Official 2017 MotoGP Thread

Post by Zazu »

Cota produces dreadful bike races. The highlight of the calendar for me is losail. Nothing better than seeing all the new bikes racing under the lights to signal the start the season.

Motogp+mugello is unreal. Seeing the flares go off on the formation lap in the Italian hills and sunshine. I think it would be a great venue for a 24hr wec race

Moto3 is the best racing series in the world. 10+ riders could easily have won with 2 laps to go of today's race

I hope the new moto 2 engines spice up the series. It bores me and I can't help feeling most of the field are only there because they bring sponsor or Dorna money. Also, it was good to see pasini win today but watching the race both he and luthi are the wrong side of 30 and not good enough for the very top tier.

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Re: Official 2017 MotoGP Thread

Post by Exediron »

Zazu wrote:Moto3 is the best racing series in the world. 10+ riders could easily have won with 2 laps to go of today's race
In 100% honesty, I do not understand why that makes a series good, let alone the best. If 10+ riders could have won with 2 laps to go, that makes it a lottery, and it's hard for me to buy that skill is really shining through if no one is able to separate themselves from the field at all.
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Re: Official 2017 MotoGP Thread

Post by mcdo »

Exediron wrote:
Zazu wrote:Moto3 is the best racing series in the world. 10+ riders could easily have won with 2 laps to go of today's race
In 100% honesty, I do not understand why that makes a series good, let alone the best. If 10+ riders could have won with 2 laps to go, that makes it a lottery, and it's hard for me to buy that skill is really shining through if no one is able to separate themselves from the field at all.
I just take it for what it is - a slipstream fest, which is highly entertaining. Normality resumes then with Moto2
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Re: Official 2017 MotoGP Thread

Post by nixxxon »

Moto3 is like Indy 500 - even if its a slipstream fest, the best ones should stand out in the end, and skill and being smart makes the difference too.

I remember quite well when Maverick Viñales won Moto 3 with his wise racing, staying out of trouble, and being always up there for the taking, and changing his lines depending if he wanted to overtake or if he wanted to avoid being overtaken.

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Re: Official 2017 MotoGP Thread

Post by Zazu »

It's a skill to be in the right place at the right time. I wouldnt compare it to indy as there's no safety cars mixing things up.


Over the course of a season it's easy to see who the best riders are as they are at the sharp end most weeks. Mugello is a bit of an anomaly as the group is able to remain huge.

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Re: Official 2017 MotoGP Thread

Post by mds »

Zazu wrote:Also, it was good to see pasini win today but watching the race both he and luthi are the wrong side of 30 and not good enough for the very top tier.
To be fair, Pasini must actually be really good to put in that kind of a performance while braking and clutching with the same hand. He was fantastic, he was going to win that race and nobody was going to stop him. I thought he was out of it after T1 on the last lap but how he clawed it back, whoa!

Moto3, I wholeheartedly agree, it was all kinds of awesome. Even if it doesn't have enough correlation with later results in Moto2 and MotoGP, I just take it for what it is: spectacular, all-out racing between guys that put it all out there. The way the pack came together in the last laps, the drafting, going 4-5 wide at times, insane stuff. Really a joy to watch.

And MotoGP... I didn't get to watch because my DVR gave up the ghost :(
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Re: Official 2017 MotoGP Thread

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
Zazu wrote:Moto3 is the best racing series in the world. 10+ riders could easily have won with 2 laps to go of today's race
In 100% honesty, I do not understand why that makes a series good, let alone the best. If 10+ riders could have won with 2 laps to go, that makes it a lottery, and it's hard for me to buy that skill is really shining through if no one is able to separate themselves from the field at all.
I agree the reliance on slip streaming allows slower riders to keep up with faster riders it doesn't establish anything.
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Re: Official 2017 MotoGP Thread

Post by Zazu »

Mirs won 4 of the 7 races this year. You're making it sound like slipstreaming allows anyone just to turn up and fight for the win.

Dovi with back to back wins in Motogp! Very strange race but the championship battle is looking incredible

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Re: Official 2017 MotoGP Thread

Post by robins13 »

That was so funny from Marquez at podium, making joke about his falls throughout the weekend. :D

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Re: Official 2017 MotoGP Thread

Post by Cold Gin »

Dovi!!! I'm a happy guy.
I'd rather die than be overtaken.

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Re: Official 2017 MotoGP Thread

Post by nixxxon »

Very impressed with Dovizioso in these last two races.
He is at the absolute peak of his career.

Absolutely shocking result from both official Yamahas, I dont understand the crazy ups and downs from the different teams this year. One race you have yamahas dominating, the hondas being slow, and another race its the opposite.
I also dont understand at all how Lorenzo started so well, then had a huge sudden drop of pace, and then recovered again in the end.

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Re: Official 2017 MotoGP Thread

Post by Cold Gin »

nixxxon wrote:Very impressed with Dovizioso in these last two races.
He is at the absolute peak of his career.

Absolutely shocking result from both official Yamahas, I dont understand the crazy ups and downs from the different teams this year. One race you have yamahas dominating, the hondas being slow, and another race its the opposite.
I also dont understand at all how Lorenzo started so well, then had a huge sudden drop of pace, and then recovered again in the end.

Tires. Quite easy to see, isn't it?
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Re: Official 2017 MotoGP Thread

Post by Fiki »

I'm a bit worried about Jorge Lorenzo's mental health. According to Autosport, "after dropping down the order in the first third of the race, Lorenzo regrouped to finish in fourth place". How many Lorenzo's are there? :D

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Re: Official 2017 MotoGP Thread

Post by pokerman »

Zazu wrote:Mirs won 4 of the 7 races this year. You're making it sound like slipstreaming allows anyone just to turn up and fight for the win.

Dovi with back to back wins in Motogp! Very strange race but the championship battle is looking incredible
Not all the races are quite like that, we are talking about one particular race.
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Re: Official 2017 MotoGP Thread

Post by pokerman »

Cold Gin wrote:
nixxxon wrote:Very impressed with Dovizioso in these last two races.
He is at the absolute peak of his career.

Absolutely shocking result from both official Yamahas, I dont understand the crazy ups and downs from the different teams this year. One race you have yamahas dominating, the hondas being slow, and another race its the opposite.
I also dont understand at all how Lorenzo started so well, then had a huge sudden drop of pace, and then recovered again in the end.

Tires. Quite easy to see, isn't it?
Yes it's a bit of a tyre lottery dependent on which tyres Michelin decide to bring along.
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Re: Official 2017 MotoGP Thread

Post by pokerman »

Fiki wrote:I'm a bit worried about Jorge Lorenzo's mental health. According to Autosport, "after dropping down the order in the first third of the race, Lorenzo regrouped to finish in fourth place". How many Lorenzo's are there? :D

source: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.ph ... for-ducati
It's more a nuance of the English language, you can regroup your thoughts hence the plural.

Apparently Lorenzo looked after his tyres too much in the first part of the race and had pace to burn at the end, he left his charge to late.
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Re: Official 2017 MotoGP Thread

Post by nixxxon »

Cold Gin wrote:
nixxxon wrote:Very impressed with Dovizioso in these last two races.
He is at the absolute peak of his career.

Absolutely shocking result from both official Yamahas, I dont understand the crazy ups and downs from the different teams this year. One race you have yamahas dominating, the hondas being slow, and another race its the opposite.
I also dont understand at all how Lorenzo started so well, then had a huge sudden drop of pace, and then recovered again in the end.

Tires. Quite easy to see, isn't it?
It seems like they mix cheap chinese tires with good tires and mix them up, and sometimes one team gets the bad ones and another time another

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Re: Official 2017 MotoGP Thread

Post by pokerman »

nixxxon wrote:
Cold Gin wrote:
nixxxon wrote:Very impressed with Dovizioso in these last two races.
He is at the absolute peak of his career.

Absolutely shocking result from both official Yamahas, I dont understand the crazy ups and downs from the different teams this year. One race you have yamahas dominating, the hondas being slow, and another race its the opposite.
I also dont understand at all how Lorenzo started so well, then had a huge sudden drop of pace, and then recovered again in the end.

Tires. Quite easy to see, isn't it?
It seems like they mix cheap chinese tires with good tires and mix them up, and sometimes one team gets the bad ones and another time another
:lol:

...or more simply different tyres suit different bikes.
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Re: Official 2017 MotoGP Thread

Post by mcdo »

No posts in the MotoGP thread after today's epic race. For shame PF1
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Cold Gin
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Re: Official 2017 MotoGP Thread

Post by Cold Gin »

Absolutely thrilling race!!!! Truly gripping from beginning to end. Huge mistake by Vinales---DNF's are crippling his season. Another disappointment today, which I'd call a lack of concentration. Rossi rode brilliantly today, answering every charge put to him by the following group--although I will say he's lucky they came upon Rins when they did, as that hindered Petucci greatly.

Lorenzo---my god he should just be substituted by someone else when it rains. It's pathetic how far off the pace he is in the wet. Proud of Crutchlow and Dovi fighting back--but that pass from Marquez through Ramshoek was insane. Brilliant aggressiveness and execution on the last lap.

What a race!!!
I'd rather die than be overtaken.

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mds
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Re: Official 2017 MotoGP Thread

Post by mds »

Great race, fantastic race. Edge of your seat stuff. Rossi looked like winning it, then the light rain came and Petrucci, Marquez and Dovi came back. I thought it was over at that point, especially when Rossi got passed by Petrucci. But then he held on, as if he was pacing it on purpose the laps before, and he managed to take it back. Just a fabulous race.

Lorenzo's performances have definitely not been good enough, if you realize his teammate is leading the championship and even Petrucci with 3 retirements is ahead of him and has 2 podiums to Lorenzo's one.


Moto2 race was also cracking, great battles in the leading group which had the championship top 6 all battling for the win for a long time.

And in Moto3 we had quite a curious finisher. Taken from the photo finish camera:
Image

Well, he didn't finish officially as he was not in contact with his bike...
Go Vandoorne :( - Verstappen - Vettel!

shoot999
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Re: Official 2017 MotoGP Thread

Post by shoot999 »

Good to see Crutchlow deliver after being handed a two year HRC contract.

Laz_T800
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Re: Official 2017 MotoGP Thread

Post by Laz_T800 »

Was a great race. fantastic to see The Doctor back on the top step and in good form.

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mds
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Re: Official 2017 MotoGP Thread

Post by mds »

Laz_T800 wrote:fantastic to see The Doctor back on the top step and in good form.
It's funny, isn't it? Two years ago - "well, this is/was certainly his last chance at the title". Last year - "well, if he keeps it on track, he might win this title".
And now this year, who can't see him contending for the title at this stage, having outperformed Vinales the past two races?
Go Vandoorne :( - Verstappen - Vettel!

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nixxxon
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Re: Official 2017 MotoGP Thread

Post by nixxxon »

mds wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:fantastic to see The Doctor back on the top step and in good form.
It's funny, isn't it? Two years ago - "well, this is/was certainly his last chance at the title". Last year - "well, if he keeps it on track, he might win this title".
And now this year, who can't see him contending for the title at this stage, having outperformed Vinales the past two races?
Well, Viñales keeps getting the chinese tires, sooner or later he will get the good ones and be up there again. :nod:

If I were a betting guy, I would avoid betting on MotoGP at all costs because its like a lottery.

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mds
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Re: Official 2017 MotoGP Thread

Post by mds »

nixxxon wrote:
mds wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:fantastic to see The Doctor back on the top step and in good form.
It's funny, isn't it? Two years ago - "well, this is/was certainly his last chance at the title". Last year - "well, if he keeps it on track, he might win this title".
And now this year, who can't see him contending for the title at this stage, having outperformed Vinales the past two races?
Well, Viñales keeps getting the chinese tires, sooner or later he will get the good ones and be up there again. :nod:

If I were a betting guy, I would avoid betting on MotoGP at all costs because its like a lottery.
Well at this stage it does look like that...

I'd also like to point out Zarco should stop being the soft tyre hero. It helps him in the first stage of races, but then he drops back as his tyres are degrading. His final result is often still OK but if he is really serious about trying for a win, then I'm not sure he has the right approach to it.
Go Vandoorne :( - Verstappen - Vettel!

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