Driver's careers ended/damaged by other, better drivers

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nixxxon
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Driver's careers ended/damaged by other, better drivers

Post by nixxxon »

Out of this article http://www.planetf1.com/news/warning-to ... d-careers/

I was wondering about that.

Let's recap:

Hamilton:
-Kovalainen

Alonso:
-Marques
-Yoong
-Trulli
-Fisichella
-Nelson Piquet Jr
-Massa
-Raikkonen (shared with Vettel)
-Button

Vettel
-Bourdais
-Webber
-Raikkonen (shared with Alonso)

Schumacher
-Brundle
-Patrese
-Verstappen (Jos)
-JJ Letho
-Herbert
-Irvine
-Barrichello

Senna
-Ceccoto
-Johansson (shared with Prost)
-Dumfries
-Nakajima
-Prost
-Berger
-Andretti (Michael)

Prost
-Watson
-Cheever
-Rosberg (Keke)
-Johansson (shared with Senna)
-Mansell

Any more that you can remember or post? Thoughts?

lamo

Re: Driver's careers ended/damaged by other, better drivers

Post by lamo »

I am not so sure about a lot of those, in hindsight, Brundles stint against Schumacher looks quite impressive. He matched and beat him quite a few times that season and only lost 53-38 points. The motive to not resign him was political. Schumacher out scored him replacement Patrese, 52-20.

Similarly, I don't think Alonso damaged Trulli's (especially in hindsight) or Buttons career. If anything, Trulli's 2004 season now looks like his best ever season and one of the very best against Alonso.

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Re: Driver's careers ended/damaged by other, better drivers

Post by Exediron »

nixxxon wrote:Out of this article http://www.planetf1.com/news/warning-to ... d-careers/

I was wondering about that.

Any more that you can remember or post? Thoughts?
The only one I'd really argue with is Button. Although he retired while he was Alonso's teammate, I actually think Alonso has significantly helped how Button will be perceived in the future; he was much closer to Alonso than many people expected, and having now managed to take a season off of each of the two best drivers of his era I think a lot of people will re-examine if Button really was a weak world champion or just unlucky with his cars and teammates. Vandoorne ended Button's career, if anyone.

Prost and Mansell I think are also questionable; both won a WDC after partnering their superior teammate, so it's hard to say their careers were ended or even badly damaged. However, since it's true that Mansell left the sport rather than partner Prost again and Prost did the same for Senna, technically I suppose their careers were ultimately ended by their nemesis.

I would also add:

J. Villeneuve
- Frentzen

This one I feel is very unfair, as I rate Frentzen very highly. But he blew his one big opportunity in a front-running car, and was never given a second chance.

You could also make a case for Rosberg ending Schumacher's career, but I wouldn't.
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Re: Driver's careers ended/damaged by other, better drivers

Post by Kev627 »

Something I've always thought is just what could Barrichello have achieved if he hadn't had Schumacher as his team mate?

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Re: Driver's careers ended/damaged by other, better drivers

Post by moby »

Kev627 wrote:Something I've always thought is just what could Barrichello have achieved if he hadn't had Schumacher as his team mate?

Now that would be a good thread. Who would have become champ it their teem mate had not been there

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nixxxon
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Re: Driver's careers ended/damaged by other, better drivers

Post by nixxxon »

lamo wrote:I am not so sure about a lot of those, in hindsight, Brundles stint against Schumacher looks quite impressive. He matched and beat him quite a few times that season and only lost 53-38 points. The motive to not resign him was political. Schumacher out scored him replacement Patrese, 52-20.

Similarly, I don't think Alonso damaged Trulli's (especially in hindsight) or Buttons career. If anything, Trulli's 2004 season now looks like his best ever season and one of the very best against Alonso.
Exediron wrote:The only one I'd really argue with is Button. Although he retired while he was Alonso's teammate, I actually think Alonso has significantly helped how Button will be perceived in the future; he was much closer to Alonso than many people expected, and having now managed to take a season off of each of the two best drivers of his era I think a lot of people will re-examine if Button really was a weak world champion or just unlucky with his cars and teammates. Vandoorne ended Button's career, if anyone.

Prost and Mansell I think are also questionable; both won a WDC after partnering their superior teammate, so it's hard to say their careers were ended or even badly damaged. However, since it's true that Mansell left the sport rather than partner Prost again and Prost did the same for Senna, technically I suppose their careers were ultimately ended by their nemesis.

I would also add:

J. Villeneuve
- Frentzen

This one I feel is very unfair, as I rate Frentzen very highly. But he blew his one big opportunity in a front-running car, and was never given a second chance.

You could also make a case for Rosberg ending Schumacher's career, but I wouldn't.
Alonso really damaged Button's career, but maybe not so much directly as a team-mate at Mclaren... if you remember he got sacked from Renault in 2002 and replaced by Alonso, who was the test driver that year. If alonso wasnt there, Button would've probably stayed at Renault for several more years.

I agree that Senna damaging Prost career is a bit so-so, but you could tell that if Senna had not been there, Prost would've won 2 more WDC with McLaren-Honda.
Prost damaged Mansells career I think because If Prost wasnt there in 1993 I think Mansell would've retained the seat and won the WDC again

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Re: Driver's careers ended/damaged by other, better drivers

Post by POBRatings »

Interesting thread, makes one think and view things from different angles.

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Lt. Drebin
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Re: Driver's careers ended/damaged by other, better drivers

Post by Lt. Drebin »

IF:
Senna
-Prost

THAN:
Prost
-Senna
The end is near

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tootsie323
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Re: Driver's careers ended/damaged by other, better drivers

Post by tootsie323 »

nixxxon wrote:... Prost damaged Mansells career I think because If Prost wasnt there in 1993 I think Mansell would've retained the seat and won the WDC again
It's quite true that Mansell retired from F1 because he didn't think he was getting the contract he deserved for delivering a title and Prost was waiting in the wings (having effectively ousted him from Ferrari before). However he did become the first (is that correct) driver to hold both F1 and Indy titles at the same time so it wasn't that bad!
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nixxxon
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Re: Driver's careers ended/damaged by other, better drivers

Post by nixxxon »

tootsie323 wrote:
nixxxon wrote:... Prost damaged Mansells career I think because If Prost wasnt there in 1993 I think Mansell would've retained the seat and won the WDC again
It's quite true that Mansell retired from F1 because he didn't think he was getting the contract he deserved for delivering a title and Prost was waiting in the wings (having effectively ousted him from Ferrari before). However he did become the first (is that correct) driver to hold both F1 and Indy titles at the same time so it wasn't that bad!
true that, but I think Indy is/was a 2nd class category compared to F1

lamo

Re: Driver's careers ended/damaged by other, better drivers

Post by lamo »

Lt. Drebin wrote:IF:
Senna
-Prost

THAN:
Prost
-Senna
I don't agree, before partnering Senna, Prost was considered possibly the best driver ever and certainly the best driver of the 1980s. After partnering Senna he was considered no longer the best driver in F1, losing a title to Senna and winning one off the back of Senna's reliability woes.

88 and 89 only enhanced Senna's claim and is probably the biggest factor for people who rate him as the best ever. Although to be fair to Prost he was already 33 years old by 1988 and on the slight decline possibly.

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Re: Driver's careers ended/damaged by other, better drivers

Post by mikeyg123 »

lamo wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:IF:
Senna
-Prost

THAN:
Prost
-Senna
I don't agree, before partnering Senna, Prost was considered possibly the best driver ever and certainly the best driver of the 1980s. After partnering Senna he was considered no longer the best driver in F1, losing a title to Senna and winning one off the back of Senna's reliability woes.

88 and 89 only enhanced Senna's claim and is probably the biggest factor for people who rate him as the best ever. Although to be fair to Prost he was already 33 years old by 1988 and on the slight decline possibly.
:thumbup:

Prost's reputation was decreased after partnering Senna. Senna's was massively enhanced as before then he was still somewhat unproven.

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Re: Driver's careers ended/damaged by other, better drivers

Post by sandman1347 »

You missed some as far as damage is concerned:

1. I think Hamilton damaged Alonso's reputation.
2. I think Button damaged Hamilton's reputation (though I really don't agree that Alonso damaged Button's rep).
3. I would say that the most glaring omission is what Ricciardo did to Vettel's reputation. That was huge.
4. Another massive omission is what Massa did to Raikkonen's reputation. Massa really exposed Kimi, who was considered by many to be the fastest driver in F1 at that time.

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Re: Driver's careers ended/damaged by other, better drivers

Post by pendulumeffect »

I am afraid reports of Raikkonnen's untimely demise are grossly exaggerated!

If anything Raikkonnen has somehow sent Alonso to McLaren despite admittedly being slower. But I would rather bet on Raikkonen getting another WDC rather than Alonso unless McLaren find a performance loophole. The new regs might favour Kimi's style over Alonso or Vettel as he was more prolific in the high downforce V10 era.

Let's not also forget Kimi would have beaten Alonso to WDC in 2005 were it not for a painfully unreliable but fast MCLaren.

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Re: Driver's careers ended/damaged by other, better drivers

Post by Siao7 »

sandman1347 wrote:You missed some as far as damage is concerned:

1. I think Hamilton damaged Alonso's reputation.
2. I think Button damaged Hamilton's reputation (though I really don't agree that Alonso damaged Button's rep).
3. I would say that the most glaring omission is what Ricciardo did to Vettel's reputation. That was huge.
4. Another massive omission is what Massa did to Raikkonen's reputation. Massa really exposed Kimi, who was considered by many to be the fastest driver in F1 at that time.
Good points

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nixxxon
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Re: Driver's careers ended/damaged by other, better drivers

Post by nixxxon »

sandman1347 wrote:You missed some as far as damage is concerned:

1. I think Hamilton damaged Alonso's reputation.
2. I think Button damaged Hamilton's reputation (though I really don't agree that Alonso damaged Button's rep).
3. I would say that the most glaring omission is what Ricciardo did to Vettel's reputation. That was huge.
4. Another massive omission is what Massa did to Raikkonen's reputation. Massa really exposed Kimi, who was considered by many to be the fastest driver in F1 at that time.
I know I missed some, I said that contributions are welcome.
pendulumeffect wrote:I am afraid reports of Raikkonnen's untimely demise are grossly exaggerated!

If anything Raikkonnen has somehow sent Alonso to McLaren despite admittedly being slower. But I would rather bet on Raikkonen getting another WDC rather than Alonso unless McLaren find a performance loophole. The new regs might favour Kimi's style over Alonso or Vettel as he was more prolific in the high downforce V10 era.

Let's not also forget Kimi would have beaten Alonso to WDC in 2005 were it not for a painfully unreliable but fast MCLaren.
Lol what? Kimi sent Alonso to McLaren? Now that's something new...
Also let's not forget Kimi went off to Ferrari after knowing Alonso would drive for McLaren in 2007.

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Re: Driver's careers ended/damaged by other, better drivers

Post by POBRatings »

moby wrote:
Kev627 wrote:Something I've always thought is just what could Barrichello have achieved if he hadn't had Schumacher as his team mate?

Now that would be a good thread. Who would have become champ it their teem mate had not been there
:thumbup: Good idea, hope one of you do start another thread; it would be a good 'other side of the coin' to this one. How many careers 'made' or helped by other drivers?

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Re: Driver's careers ended/damaged by other, better drivers

Post by Donington93 »

I don't know that he was a better driver but being out qualified by Deletraz could not have helped the career of Domenico Schiattarella (which admittedly was going no-where fast, but then Deletraz wasn't noted for doing anything fast either).

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Re: Driver's careers ended/damaged by other, better drivers

Post by StevoYZF »

I've read a few times that Mansell badly damaged Piquet Snr's reputation in 86-87, but Piquet did take the '87 title so I'm not sure if that counts in this context really. Apparently Piquet was slower post a '87 San Marino crash, but that was a little before my time.

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Re: Driver's careers ended/damaged by other, better drivers

Post by POBRatings »

Rindt really knocked Graham Hill's confidence and reputation at Lotus in 1969. They two did not like each other. Rindt of course being so much younger and really fast showed in how much Hill's speed dropped off that season.

Piquet vs Mansell : in 1986 they were virtually equal in speed, but after Piquet's head injury at Imola, he was slower than Nigel in 1987. Piquet remained however a really talented, crafty and mechanically sensitive racer for years after. He scored wins until 1991 before retiring. Despite Nelson's juvenile, nasty personal attacks via the media on Mansell, Nigel generously praised his abilities as a driver some years later.

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Re: Driver's careers ended/damaged by other, better drivers

Post by Zoue »

StevoYZF wrote:I've read a few times that Mansell badly damaged Piquet Snr's reputation in 86-87, but Piquet did take the '87 title so I'm not sure if that counts in this context really. Apparently Piquet was slower post a '87 San Marino crash, but that was a little before my time.
Piquet and Mansell were fairly evenly matched in 1986, but after Imola 1987 Mansell was demonstrably quicker. Piquet said that for a while he'd lost some 80% depth perception after his massive accident and he had to change the way he drove to play the percentage game. The fact that he still won the title that year is a testament to his skill.

I'd agree that public perception, especially in the UK, was that Mansell damaged Piquet's reputation (and, conversely, Mansell's reputation was enhanced). The reality of it, however, was more likely that Piquet's accident slowed him down, but because he kept the extent of his damage a secret people didn't realise he was hiding a handicap.

edit: POBRatings beat me to it!

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Re: Driver's careers ended/damaged by other, better drivers

Post by Exediron »

sandman1347 wrote:You missed some as far as damage is concerned:

1. I think Hamilton damaged Alonso's reputation.
2. I think Button damaged Hamilton's reputation (though I really don't agree that Alonso damaged Button's rep).
3. I would say that the most glaring omission is what Ricciardo did to Vettel's reputation. That was huge.
4. Another massive omission is what Massa did to Raikkonen's reputation. Massa really exposed Kimi, who was considered by many to be the fastest driver in F1 at that time.
You're absolutely right as far as reputation is concerned, but the thread is about careers; Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel and Kimi are all still driving top cars years later, and at the very least two of them (probably three) are still thought of as top-flight drivers. I think you have the best case for Kimi, since being matched by Massa effectively ended his first career (Ferrari paid him not to drive, after all). It was Alonso however who really put the final nail in Kimi's coffin as far as being a 'top' driver is concerned.

I think personally for a driver's career to have been ended or damaged by their teammate, they must not have had a successful career after partnering that teammate. Alonso has won no WDCs since partnering Hamilton, but that's because he's been unlucky with his cars, not due to a loss of status. Hamilton has won 3 WDCs and numerous races since partnering Button, and is currently regarded as one of the clear best drivers on the grid. Vettel hasn't won any WDCs, but he's #1 at a top team and certainly in a position to do so; just a year ago he was considered to be driver of the year, although his last season was less well received.

I suppose a test of reputation vs. career would be Schumacher vs. Rosberg. Obviously, Schumi's time partnering Nico did damage his reputation to a certain degree - he was no longer viewed as invincible. However, his career still stands alone as the greatest of all time, so really Rosberg didn't damage it at all. Does their time together qualify? For me no, because Schumacher's career was all behind him and wasn't damaged. For those looking chiefly at reputation however, there was a major change in how some perceived Michael afterwards.
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Re: Driver's careers ended/damaged by other, better drivers

Post by Lt. Drebin »

sandman1347 wrote:You missed some as far as damage is concerned:

1. I think Hamilton damaged Alonso's reputation.
2. I think Button damaged Hamilton's reputation (though I really don't agree that Alonso damaged Button's rep).
3. I would say that the most glaring omission is what Ricciardo did to Vettel's reputation. That was huge.
4. Another massive omission is what Massa did to Raikkonen's reputation. Massa really exposed Kimi, who was considered by many to be the fastest driver in F1 at that time.
Actually, excellent points. :thumbup:
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Re: Driver's careers ended/damaged by other, better drivers

Post by tootsie323 »

Zoue wrote:
StevoYZF wrote:I've read a few times that Mansell badly damaged Piquet Snr's reputation in 86-87, but Piquet did take the '87 title so I'm not sure if that counts in this context really. Apparently Piquet was slower post a '87 San Marino crash, but that was a little before my time.
Piquet and Mansell were fairly evenly matched in 1986, but after Imola 1987 Mansell was demonstrably quicker. Piquet said that for a while he'd lost some 80% depth perception after his massive accident and he had to change the way he drove to play the percentage game. The fact that he still won the title that year is a testament to his skill.

I'd agree that public perception, especially in the UK, was that Mansell damaged Piquet's reputation (and, conversely, Mansell's reputation was enhanced). The reality of it, however, was more likely that Piquet's accident slowed him down, but because he kept the extent of his damage a secret people didn't realise he was hiding a handicap.

edit: POBRatings beat me to it!
POBRatings wrote:Piquet vs Mansell : in 1986 they were virtually equal in speed, but after Piquet's head injury at Imola, he was slower than Nigel in 1987. Piquet remained however a really talented, crafty and mechanically sensitive racer for years after. He scored wins until 1991 before retiring. Despite Nelson's juvenile, nasty personal attacks via the media on Mansell, Nigel generously praised his abilities as a driver some years later.
Agree with all the above. The one thing I might add is that Piquet was generally expected to be the faster driver at Williams in '86 and that's where Mansell's reputation (at least in the UK) was enhanced. I don't think Nigel ever doubted Nelson's ability as a driver but was less than enthusiastic about his character as a person. I was just a young teen at the time and, being in the UK, was a big fan of Our Nige - so was not such a fan of Piquet! On reflection, I should have appreciated the rivalry a lot more than I did.
Nelson's efforts in '87 (and, one may argue, beyond though in lesser machinery) were, in hindsight, very impressive. It's also a little ironic that his final F1 victory came at Nigel's expense (or his last-lap, ahem, mechanical issue) in '91.
As seems to be the case for most sporting rivalries, they appeared to have become much more congenial to each other post-retirement.
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Re: Driver's careers ended/damaged by other, better drivers

Post by POBRatings »

Zoue wrote:
StevoYZF wrote:I've read a few times that Mansell badly damaged Piquet Snr's reputation in 86-87, but Piquet did take the '87 title so I'm not sure if that counts in this context really. Apparently Piquet was slower post a '87 San Marino crash, but that was a little before my time.
Piquet and Mansell were fairly evenly matched in 1986, but after Imola 1987 Mansell was demonstrably quicker. Piquet said that for a while he'd lost some 80% depth perception after his massive accident and he had to change the way he drove to play the percentage game. The fact that he still won the title that year is a testament to his skill.

I'd agree that public perception, especially in the UK, was that Mansell damaged Piquet's reputation (and, conversely, Mansell's reputation was enhanced). The reality of it, however, was more likely that Piquet's accident slowed him down, but because he kept the extent of his damage a secret people didn't realise he was hiding a handicap.

edit: POBRatings beat me to it!
You and Lewis should have worked harder on your starts; I stayed late at the factory with Rosberg. :lol:

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Re: Driver's careers ended/damaged by other, better drivers

Post by Zoue »

POBRatings wrote:
Zoue wrote:
StevoYZF wrote:I've read a few times that Mansell badly damaged Piquet Snr's reputation in 86-87, but Piquet did take the '87 title so I'm not sure if that counts in this context really. Apparently Piquet was slower post a '87 San Marino crash, but that was a little before my time.
Piquet and Mansell were fairly evenly matched in 1986, but after Imola 1987 Mansell was demonstrably quicker. Piquet said that for a while he'd lost some 80% depth perception after his massive accident and he had to change the way he drove to play the percentage game. The fact that he still won the title that year is a testament to his skill.

I'd agree that public perception, especially in the UK, was that Mansell damaged Piquet's reputation (and, conversely, Mansell's reputation was enhanced). The reality of it, however, was more likely that Piquet's accident slowed him down, but because he kept the extent of his damage a secret people didn't realise he was hiding a handicap.

edit: POBRatings beat me to it!
You and Lewis should have worked harder on your starts; I stayed late at the factory with Rosberg. :lol:
:lol:

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Re: Driver's careers ended/damaged by other, better drivers

Post by Lt. Drebin »

Zoue wrote:
POBRatings wrote:
Zoue wrote:
StevoYZF wrote:I've read a few times that Mansell badly damaged Piquet Snr's reputation in 86-87, but Piquet did take the '87 title so I'm not sure if that counts in this context really. Apparently Piquet was slower post a '87 San Marino crash, but that was a little before my time.
Piquet and Mansell were fairly evenly matched in 1986, but after Imola 1987 Mansell was demonstrably quicker. Piquet said that for a while he'd lost some 80% depth perception after his massive accident and he had to change the way he drove to play the percentage game. The fact that he still won the title that year is a testament to his skill.

I'd agree that public perception, especially in the UK, was that Mansell damaged Piquet's reputation (and, conversely, Mansell's reputation was enhanced). The reality of it, however, was more likely that Piquet's accident slowed him down, but because he kept the extent of his damage a secret people didn't realise he was hiding a handicap.

edit: POBRatings beat me to it!
You and Lewis should have worked harder on your starts; I stayed late at the factory with Rosberg. :lol:
:lol:
:lol: You two :thumbup: :thumbup:
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Re: Driver's careers ended/damaged by other, better drivers

Post by pendulumeffect »

pendulumeffect wrote:I am afraid reports of Raikkonnen's untimely demise are grossly exaggerated!

If anything Raikkonnen has somehow sent Alonso to McLaren despite admittedly being slower. But I would rather bet on Raikkonen getting another WDC rather than Alonso unless McLaren find a performance loophole. The new regs might favour Kimi's style over Alonso or Vettel as he was more prolific in the high downforce V10 era.

Let's not also forget Kimi would have beaten Alonso to WDC in 2005 were it not for a painfully unreliable but fast MCLaren.
Lol what? Kimi sent Alonso to McLaren? Now that's something new...
Also let's not forget Kimi went off to Ferrari after knowing Alonso would drive for McLaren in 2007.
Well, yeah Vettel was coming in from Ferrari and he replaced Alonso but Kimi managed to keep his seat. Can't really say Alonso really chose to go to McLaren as he took ages to make it official. If anything Alonso enhanced Raikkonnen's carreer by sending him to Ferrari where he won his only WDC.

Was Alonso faster at Ferrari? Yes. Did he really damage Raikkonnen? Not really. Was Alonso damaged by leaving Ferrari? Most probably yes.

Could Raikkonnen damage Vettel next year? Very possibly. Kimi was very very fast in the high downforce era and had many lap records.

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Re: Driver's careers ended/damaged by other, better drivers

Post by mikeyg123 »

pendulumeffect wrote:
pendulumeffect wrote:I am afraid reports of Raikkonnen's untimely demise are grossly exaggerated!

If anything Raikkonnen has somehow sent Alonso to McLaren despite admittedly being slower. But I would rather bet on Raikkonen getting another WDC rather than Alonso unless McLaren find a performance loophole. The new regs might favour Kimi's style over Alonso or Vettel as he was more prolific in the high downforce V10 era.

Let's not also forget Kimi would have beaten Alonso to WDC in 2005 were it not for a painfully unreliable but fast MCLaren.
Lol what? Kimi sent Alonso to McLaren? Now that's something new...
Also let's not forget Kimi went off to Ferrari after knowing Alonso would drive for McLaren in 2007.
Well, yeah Vettel was coming in from Ferrari and he replaced Alonso but Kimi managed to keep his seat. Can't really say Alonso really chose to go to McLaren as he took ages to make it official. If anything Alonso enhanced Raikkonnen's carreer by sending him to Ferrari where he won his only WDC.

Was Alonso faster at Ferrari? Yes. Did he really damage Raikkonnen? Not really. Was Alonso damaged by leaving Ferrari? Most probably yes.

Could Raikkonnen damage Vettel next year? Very possibly. Kimi was very very fast in the high downforce era and had many lap records.
Raikkonen's reputation took a huge hit in 2014. So as far as that goes he was damaged.

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Re: Driver's careers ended/damaged by other, better drivers

Post by Exediron »

mikeyg123 wrote:
pendulumeffect wrote:Was Alonso faster at Ferrari? Yes. Did he really damage Raikkonnen? Not really. Was Alonso damaged by leaving Ferrari? Most probably yes.
Raikkonen's reputation took a huge hit in 2014. So as far as that goes he was damaged.
Absolutely. People have short memories if they don't recall that before 2014, everyone was talking about the 'Big 4' of F1: Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel and Raikkonen. Kimi was widely expected to provide a stiff challenge to Alonso, and many people even tapped him to come out on top. Fast forward to 2016 and suddenly Vettel's reputation is in serious jeopardy, not because he didn't beat Kimi decisively - he did - but because he didn't dominate Kimi enough. That's how far Raikkonen's stock fell as a result of his season alongside Alonso. Nobody regards him as one of the top drivers on the grid anymore - he went from 'Big 4' to 'time to retire' over the course of a year.

If Alonso had stayed at Ferrari, he'd have probably 3 or 4 more wins than he has now and exactly the same reputation.
pendulumeffect wrote:Can't really say Alonso really chose to go to McLaren as he took ages to make it official.
Actually, yeah - I can. Alonso chose to go to McLaren. He'd been hinting all season long that he was going to be leaving Ferrari, and he made his announcement as soon as Ferrari announced Seb - probably because he couldn't make the announcement before the team did. I one hundred percent believe if Alonso had not wanted to leave Ferrari, he would still be there.
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Re: Driver's careers ended/damaged by other, better drivers

Post by Pole2Win »

Exediron wrote:Absolutely. People have short memories if they don't recall that before 2014, everyone was talking about the 'Big 4' of F1: Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel and Raikkonen. Kimi was widely expected to provide a stiff challenge to Alonso, and many people even tapped him to come out on top. Fast forward to 2016 and suddenly Vettel's reputation is in serious jeopardy, not because he didn't beat Kimi decisively - he did - but because he didn't dominate Kimi enough. That's how far Raikkonen's stock fell as a result of his season alongside Alonso. Nobody regards him as one of the top drivers on the grid anymore - he went from 'Big 4' to 'time to retire' over the course of a year.

If Alonso had stayed at Ferrari, he'd have probably 3 or 4 more wins than he has now and exactly the same reputation.
What happened at Ferrari in the late 2000s was a mystery, because in theory if I was LdM I'd only drop a call to Alonso during mid-2008 season when it was clear that Raikkonen was being greatly troubled by Massa. Yet from what I've heard they actually contacted Alonso before that.

TBH Kimi made a meal out of his first stint with Ferrari and should've comfortably won 2007, instead he was forced to put an unlikely winning streak at the end of the season and rely on others' woes to win the whole thing. It was one of the most esoteric title wins in F1, truth be told. I have no idea why he went to Ferrari in the first place, he's not the kind to enjoy such atmosphere. Meanwhile it's well known that Massa was held in high esteem by the Ferrari mechanics and it's likely that at some point Massa gained favor inside the team. Kimi was nowhere near the magnetic figure Schumacher was.

Kimi had good seasons at Lotus but I think his success was a bit overhyped. It was difficult for him to outqualify Grosjean, especially in 2012. In the races, however, he could use his superior racecraft to dominate his teammate.

I would say Alonso ended Massa's career right there with that radio call. That was HIS order. We only saw Alonso complaining and then Rob Smedley exposing the scam in live television for all the world to see, but we don't know much more than that. From that moment on, Massa knew that the team would work for him no longer. When it comes to destroying careers, Alonso is worse than Schumacher.

As for Vettel, Ricciardo seriously dented his reputation already in 2014... And we're speaking of a 4-time WDC here!
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Re: Driver's careers ended/damaged by other, better drivers

Post by stevey »

Ricciardo
Vettel

Alonso
Vettel

Alonso and Vettel may not have raced together in the same team but being the fact that Vettel was Alonso's replacement its fairly obvious that Alonso's time at Ferrari definitely out shone Sebastian's and sebs rep has certainly taken a nose dive because of this comparison. Also how they both faired on Raikonnen who seems to be much closer to Sebastian.

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Re: Driver's careers ended/damaged by other, better drivers

Post by POBRatings »

The Alonso-Vettel comparison at Ferrari, like most analysis of F1, is not straightforward.
Alonso's Ferraris 2010-2013 were faster than Vettel's Ferrari's 2015-2016. Ie Alonso 's cars were closer to the front-runners. By my calcs just by an average of 0.2. But at this level of racing this 0.2 can make a significant difference to results.
I do think Alonso would be slightly more successful than Vettel, in same cars, but by very little. Also think Vettel has done very well in his two seasons at Ferrari.

Kimi has not been a stable benchmark. He perfroemd poorly in 2014, a little better in 2015 but still slow. He stepped up his game for 2016.

One also has to consider which rivals were between the Ferraris and the top packages , those that affected their results:
In 2010,2011 Alonso had the two McLarens. In 2012 Alonso 's Ferrari was the second fastest car but the four McLarens and Red Bulls were equal top; in 2013 the Ferrari was second fastest, but two Red Bulls were top again.
In 2015 Vettel's Ferrari was equal second-fastest car with the two Williams cars, in 2016 equal second fastest to the two Red Bulls.

Then one has to look at the gap to the front-runners in each case. The Mercedes in 2015,2016 had the greatest car performance advantage.

It seems difficult to say who had the harder time getting good results, Alonso or Vettel.

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Re: Driver's careers ended/damaged by other, better drivers

Post by sandman1347 »

Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:You missed some as far as damage is concerned:

1. I think Hamilton damaged Alonso's reputation.
2. I think Button damaged Hamilton's reputation (though I really don't agree that Alonso damaged Button's rep).
3. I would say that the most glaring omission is what Ricciardo did to Vettel's reputation. That was huge.
4. Another massive omission is what Massa did to Raikkonen's reputation. Massa really exposed Kimi, who was considered by many to be the fastest driver in F1 at that time.
You're absolutely right as far as reputation is concerned, but the thread is about careers; Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel and Kimi are all still driving top cars years later, and at the very least two of them (probably three) are still thought of as top-flight drivers. I think you have the best case for Kimi, since being matched by Massa effectively ended his first career (Ferrari paid him not to drive, after all). It was Alonso however who really put the final nail in Kimi's coffin as far as being a 'top' driver is concerned.

I think personally for a driver's career to have been ended or damaged by their teammate, they must not have had a successful career after partnering that teammate. Alonso has won no WDCs since partnering Hamilton, but that's because he's been unlucky with his cars, not due to a loss of status. Hamilton has won 3 WDCs and numerous races since partnering Button, and is currently regarded as one of the clear best drivers on the grid. Vettel hasn't won any WDCs, but he's #1 at a top team and certainly in a position to do so; just a year ago he was considered to be driver of the year, although his last season was less well received.

I suppose a test of reputation vs. career would be Schumacher vs. Rosberg. Obviously, Schumi's time partnering Nico did damage his reputation to a certain degree - he was no longer viewed as invincible. However, his career still stands alone as the greatest of all time, so really Rosberg didn't damage it at all. Does their time together qualify? For me no, because Schumacher's career was all behind him and wasn't damaged. For those looking chiefly at reputation however, there was a major change in how some perceived Michael afterwards.
I actually think the Schumacher/Rosberg matchup is primarily an illustration of fan-logic. Basically, Rosberg gets almost no credit whatsoever for what he did in that matchup because fans have determined that Michael's defeat at the hands of Rosberg was a function of the erosion of his abilities due to age/rust rather than a reflection of Nico's ability. It's not that this is an irrational hypothesis, it's just that there is no concrete way to prove that and the certainty with which fans basically negate everything Rosberg did and slam 2012 in his face as this year where Michael was so much better (despite losing in the points by a big margin) is a little disturbing.

Classic fan-logic thought patterns are present here. They nitpick at each thing that went wrong for Michael while totally ignoring things that went wrong for Rosberg. It really shows the innate bias with most attempts to analyze performance in this sport.

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Re: Driver's careers ended/damaged by other, better drivers

Post by Siao7 »

sandman1347 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:You missed some as far as damage is concerned:

1. I think Hamilton damaged Alonso's reputation.
2. I think Button damaged Hamilton's reputation (though I really don't agree that Alonso damaged Button's rep).
3. I would say that the most glaring omission is what Ricciardo did to Vettel's reputation. That was huge.
4. Another massive omission is what Massa did to Raikkonen's reputation. Massa really exposed Kimi, who was considered by many to be the fastest driver in F1 at that time.
You're absolutely right as far as reputation is concerned, but the thread is about careers; Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel and Kimi are all still driving top cars years later, and at the very least two of them (probably three) are still thought of as top-flight drivers. I think you have the best case for Kimi, since being matched by Massa effectively ended his first career (Ferrari paid him not to drive, after all). It was Alonso however who really put the final nail in Kimi's coffin as far as being a 'top' driver is concerned.

I think personally for a driver's career to have been ended or damaged by their teammate, they must not have had a successful career after partnering that teammate. Alonso has won no WDCs since partnering Hamilton, but that's because he's been unlucky with his cars, not due to a loss of status. Hamilton has won 3 WDCs and numerous races since partnering Button, and is currently regarded as one of the clear best drivers on the grid. Vettel hasn't won any WDCs, but he's #1 at a top team and certainly in a position to do so; just a year ago he was considered to be driver of the year, although his last season was less well received.

I suppose a test of reputation vs. career would be Schumacher vs. Rosberg. Obviously, Schumi's time partnering Nico did damage his reputation to a certain degree - he was no longer viewed as invincible. However, his career still stands alone as the greatest of all time, so really Rosberg didn't damage it at all. Does their time together qualify? For me no, because Schumacher's career was all behind him and wasn't damaged. For those looking chiefly at reputation however, there was a major change in how some perceived Michael afterwards.
I actually think the Schumacher/Rosberg matchup is primarily an illustration of fan-logic. Basically, Rosberg gets almost no credit whatsoever for what he did in that matchup because fans have determined that Michael's defeat at the hands of Rosberg was a function of the erosion of his abilities due to age/rust rather than a reflection of Nico's ability. It's not that this is an irrational hypothesis, it's just that there is no concrete way to prove that and the certainty with which fans basically negate everything Rosberg did and slam 2012 in his face as this year where Michael was so much better (despite losing in the points by a big margin) is a little disturbing.

Classic fan-logic thought patterns are present here. They nitpick at each thing that went wrong for Michael while totally ignoring things that went wrong for Rosberg. It really shows the innate bias with most attempts to analyze performance in this sport.

That's not entirely true. Rosberg showed his worth when the next year looked Hamilton in the eyes. While not 100% on the same level, he still outperformed Hamilton a lot of the time (but not overall) and finally last year he beat him fair and square. Which in turn makes Schumacher's come back even more impressive than what the numbers reveal.

Schumacher's time with Rosberg damaged fans egos more likely! Not their careers

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Re: Driver's careers ended/damaged by other, better drivers

Post by POBRatings »

It does seem that in some cases, Siaou's saying 'fan bias' generates many arguments, applies. It is often based on like or dilsike of a driver's personality or his earlier history: Rosberg and Alonso have been disliked by many for years.

Rosberg has been really fast from day one against Webber, then against Schumacher and recently against Hamilton.
Imo Alonso's unpopularity started when he retaliated against Lewis in Hungary 2007.

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Re: Driver's careers ended/damaged by other, better drivers

Post by sandman1347 »

POBRatings wrote:It does seem that in some cases, Siaou's saying 'fan bias' generates many arguments, applies. It is often based on like or dilsike of a driver's personality or his earlier history: Rosberg and Alonso have been disliked by many for years.

Rosberg has been really fast from day one against Webber, then against Schumacher and recently against Hamilton.
Imo Alonso's unpopularity started when he retaliated against Lewis in Hungary 2007.
Here you subtly display your bias as an Alonso fan ;) . I think it's a series of events with Alonso. The way he conducted himself in 2007 may be the start of it but it's not purely down to the incident in Hungary. He also was directly involved in the whole spygate scandal and apparently tried to blackmail McLaren with this information. Then we have the whole crashgate scandal in 2008 where he won a race in which his teammate was ordered to crash on purpose and trigger a safety car at the exact perfect time. Then of course there is a perception among some fans that he used political leverage to castrate Felipe Massa at Ferrari. And, like all of the other top drivers, there are people who will pick apart his every statement and find fault with him.

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Re: Driver's careers ended/damaged by other, better drivers

Post by DOLOMITE »

The Massa/Raikkonen one stand out for me. I never rated Massa as top-tier (maybe wrongly) but I expected Raikkonen to have him comfortably covered and he really didn't. Maybe I should have adjusted my opinion of Massa not Raikkonen but their relative performances since suggest that Raikkonen is faster, less error prone and more reliable, but overall not the driver his first couple of years in the sport led many to believe he was.
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Re: Driver's careers ended/damaged by other, better drivers

Post by Randine »

stevey wrote:Ricciardo
Vettel

Alonso
Vettel

Alonso and Vettel may not have raced together in the same team but being the fact that Vettel was Alonso's replacement its fairly obvious that Alonso's time at Ferrari definitely out shone Sebastian's and sebs rep has certainly taken a nose dive because of this comparison. Also how they both faired on Raikonnen who seems to be much closer to Sebastian.
I am not a massive Vettel fan, however while I agree with the Dan vs Seb battle, Alonso vs Seb is not as obvious.
The reason being that Kimi likes a certain type of set up for the front of his car.
When he moved to Ferrari, they had pull rod suspension that was harder to make small changes to.
Vs push rod that Kimi had at Lotus, and also that Ferrari switched to in 2016.
So for 2014 & 2015 Kimi was slightly handicapped. And then in 2016 when he had the front suspension he prefers, he had a stronger performance relative to Seb.
So because of this, I think it is almost impossible to say Alonso is better than Seb when comparing them both to Kimi.
Dan the man!


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Re: Driver's careers ended/damaged by other, better drivers

Post by Randine »

Siao7 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:You missed some as far as damage is concerned:

1. I think Hamilton damaged Alonso's reputation.
2. I think Button damaged Hamilton's reputation (though I really don't agree that Alonso damaged Button's rep).
3. I would say that the most glaring omission is what Ricciardo did to Vettel's reputation. That was huge.
4. Another massive omission is what Massa did to Raikkonen's reputation. Massa really exposed Kimi, who was considered by many to be the fastest driver in F1 at that time.
You're absolutely right as far as reputation is concerned, but the thread is about careers; Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel and Kimi are all still driving top cars years later, and at the very least two of them (probably three) are still thought of as top-flight drivers. I think you have the best case for Kimi, since being matched by Massa effectively ended his first career (Ferrari paid him not to drive, after all). It was Alonso however who really put the final nail in Kimi's coffin as far as being a 'top' driver is concerned.

I think personally for a driver's career to have been ended or damaged by their teammate, they must not have had a successful career after partnering that teammate. Alonso has won no WDCs since partnering Hamilton, but that's because he's been unlucky with his cars, not due to a loss of status. Hamilton has won 3 WDCs and numerous races since partnering Button, and is currently regarded as one of the clear best drivers on the grid. Vettel hasn't won any WDCs, but he's #1 at a top team and certainly in a position to do so; just a year ago he was considered to be driver of the year, although his last season was less well received.

I suppose a test of reputation vs. career would be Schumacher vs. Rosberg. Obviously, Schumi's time partnering Nico did damage his reputation to a certain degree - he was no longer viewed as invincible. However, his career still stands alone as the greatest of all time, so really Rosberg didn't damage it at all. Does their time together qualify? For me no, because Schumacher's career was all behind him and wasn't damaged. For those looking chiefly at reputation however, there was a major change in how some perceived Michael afterwards.
I actually think the Schumacher/Rosberg matchup is primarily an illustration of fan-logic. Basically, Rosberg gets almost no credit whatsoever for what he did in that matchup because fans have determined that Michael's defeat at the hands of Rosberg was a function of the erosion of his abilities due to age/rust rather than a reflection of Nico's ability. It's not that this is an irrational hypothesis, it's just that there is no concrete way to prove that and the certainty with which fans basically negate everything Rosberg did and slam 2012 in his face as this year where Michael was so much better (despite losing in the points by a big margin) is a little disturbing.

Classic fan-logic thought patterns are present here. They nitpick at each thing that went wrong for Michael while totally ignoring things that went wrong for Rosberg. It really shows the innate bias with most attempts to analyze performance in this sport.

That's not entirely true. Rosberg showed his worth when the next year looked Hamilton in the eyes. While not 100% on the same level, he still outperformed Hamilton a lot of the time (but not overall) and finally last year he beat him fair and square. Which in turn makes Schumacher's come back even more impressive than what the numbers reveal.

Schumacher's time with Rosberg damaged fans egos more likely! Not their careers
I think what cost Schumacher the most was the cheese tyres. He was used to pushing flat out when he needed. Long gone are the days when the winner would win by half a lap or more.
They all manage tyres/engines etc in this silly era of cost reduction.
Dan the man!


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