F1.com interview with Juan Pablo Montoya

[Tassadar]

https://www.formula1.com/en/video/2017/ ... _grid.html

Great interview by Monty. Fun and speaking his mind as always. Interesting how highly he rates Ralf and his thoughts on European drivers in general. Also thinks Vettel and Alonso are best drivers on grid.

[POBRatings]

Thanks for posting Tassadar.
Such good info comes from retired drivers when they have no bosses or sponsors to consider!
It was revealing that Monty considered Ralf so highly.
On my System I driver-rated Ralf 2nd fastest in 2001, 2002, 2004 and always considered Ralf and Monty one of the strongest pairs of their era.

[mcdo]

Thanks for posting Tassadar.
Such good info comes from retired drivers when they have no bosses or sponsors to consider!
It was revealing that Monty considered Ralf so highly.
On my System I driver-rated Ralf 2nd fastest in 2001, 2002, 2004 and always considered Ralf and Monty one of the strongest pairs of their era.

I find 2002 very interesting. That year I was of the opinion that Montoya was driving out of skin on Saturdays and just never stood a chance against the red cars on Sundays. Unless it's JPM you have as number 1 that year...

[POBRatings]

Thanks for posting Tassadar.
Such good info comes from retired drivers when they have no bosses or sponsors to consider!
It was revealing that Monty considered Ralf so highly.
On my System I driver-rated Ralf 2nd fastest in 2001, 2002, 2004 and always considered Ralf and Monty one of the strongest pairs of their era.

I find 2002 very interesting. That year I was of the opinion that Montoya was driving out of skin on Saturdays and just never stood a chance against the red cars on Sundays. Unless it's JPM you have as number 1 that year...

From 2002 -2005 I driver-rated Michael top.
In 2002 Montoya driver-rated third fastest, but within 0.1 of Ralf, so it would have made little difference between them being in same cars. Each scored six podiums, Ralf with one win. I enjoyed these two and their Williams-BMW cars more than any
others on the grid at the time.

[mikeyg123]

I think European drivers are far more mentally tough than some in America personally. Montana himself flounced off when things weren't going his way. I don't remember Ralf doing that.

Good to see Schumacher JR getting the credit he deserves though. I honestly think he could have been champion in 03 had he not missed a couple of races.

[nixxxon]

JPM shouldn't have made that bold statement about "european drivers"... each driver is different regardless of where they're from. They're tough and weak drivers metally everywhere

[POBRatings]

JPM shouldn't have made that bold statement about "european drivers"... each driver is different regardless of where they're from. They're tough and weak drivers metally everywhere

that is silly comment of Montoya's to make. Agree with Nixxon that it does not matter where a driver comes from. When the US and Europe competed head-to-head in road racing GPs and Indy track racing from 1904-1921, there was no difference at all between the best drivers from each continent. Many raced in the same teams and were equally matched.

[schumilegend]

This is an absolute nonsense interview..To say that European drivers are mentally weak is totally BS..Its quite the contrary..I think South American drivers tend to be more weak mentally(read Massa, Barrichello etc) and emotionally driven..Montoya is a case of sour grapes..Also to say Lewis is weak mentally is total nonsense as well..If anything Alonso is more mentally vulnerable than Lewis..Montoya spouting BS as usual

[Blake]

I think European drivers are far more mentally tough than some in America personally. Montana himself flounced off when things weren't going his way. I don't remember Ralf doing that.

Good to see Schumacher JR getting the credit he deserves though. I honestly think he could have been champion in 03 had he not missed a couple of races.

A curious statement...

I have not been ablebto read JPM's interview which apparently prompted thes comments, but just this comment is irritating... for us mentally weak, apparently, non-European.

So just what constitutes a "mentally tough driver" and is it someting in the water that makes European drivers "far more mentally tough"? So Ralphie didn't "flounce off"... yet JPM did? And that supposedly proves your point?

JPM "flounced" to another racing series... the "lowly" NASCAR series. He also raced in endurance sports cars and is now in INDY cars again. Ah, the shame of not being one of the "far mentally tougher" European drivers like Ralph. Seriously???

All hail those mentally tougher European drivers. This is getting ridiculous.

[POBRatings]

This is an absolute nonsense interview..To say that European drivers are mentally weak is totally BS..Its quite the contrary..I think South American drivers tend to be more weak mentally(read Massa, Barrichello etc) and emotionally driven..Montoya is a case of sour grapes..Also to say Lewis is weak mentally is total nonsense as well..If anything Alonso is more mentally vulnerable than Lewis..Montoya spouting BS as usual

Fangio, Gonzalez and Fittipaldi were from South America. Just sayin.

[schumilegend]

This is an absolute nonsense interview..To say that European drivers are mentally weak is totally BS..Its quite the contrary..I think South American drivers tend to be more weak mentally(read Massa, Barrichello etc) and emotionally driven..Montoya is a case of sour grapes..Also to say Lewis is weak mentally is total nonsense as well..If anything Alonso is more mentally vulnerable than Lewis..Montoya spouting BS as usual

Fangio, Gonzalez and Fittipaldi were from South America. Just sayin.

You're missing the point..Its a dumb and careless statement to make based on his interaction with Ralf..Also his observation on Lewis doesn't make sense..If anything the last 3 years Lewis has shown great mental fortitude to come from behind multiple times

[Zoue]

This is an absolute nonsense interview..To say that European drivers are mentally weak is totally BS..Its quite the contrary..I think South American drivers tend to be more weak mentally(read Massa, Barrichello etc) and emotionally driven..Montoya is a case of sour grapes..Also to say Lewis is weak mentally is total nonsense as well..If anything Alonso is more mentally vulnerable than Lewis..Montoya spouting BS as usual

Fangio, Gonzalez and Fittipaldi were from South America. Just sayin.

You're missing the point..Its a dumb and careless statement to make based on his interaction with Ralf..Also his observation on Lewis doesn't make sense..If anything the last 3 years Lewis has shown great mental fortitude to come from behind multiple times

Over-reacting much?

He's just telling it from his own experience. And to be fair he does say that Schumi was mentally very strong, so he's clearly not talking about every European driver. I don't know where sour grapes come into it.

Honestly, reading some of the comments on here kind of proves the guy right. Why are people so sensitive about this?

[schumilegend]

Sour grapes come in because he knocks down F1 and the top drivers whenever he gets an opportunity..Its clear he is in denial that he doesn't regret anything when its quite obvious his career in F1 was a failure compared to what he was bigged up to be..Fact of the matter is he was a mentally weak driver who couldn't cut it in F1 and was mentally destroyed by the politics in F1 and ran away acting like he was in total control and did everything according to his own terms when it was clear he was going to get the boot from McLaren

[Blake]

Schumilegend,

I seem to recall JPM giving Schumi a pretty good run for his money on more than one occasion, and, as Ferrari/Schumi fan being often nervous about JPM.

Most of your rant against Montoya is pretty unreasonable as I see it. Toughness is not an attribute that I find lacking in JPM. just the opposite in fact.

Heaven help the driver, past or present, team personnel, media source, or fan who dares to question or say anything negative about F1 in here!

[painless]

Eerrrrmmm.....Can't many American drivers actually trace their ancestry back to European roots from not too may generations ago?

[Blake]

Indeed, but I don't he is looking that far back. Indeed as a recent example, Marco Andretti is only two generations removed from Italy were Mario was born.

[SR1]

I haven't watched the full interview, and as a newcomer to F1, i confess to not being familiar with Montoya's career. But i am curious as to why he would think European drivers are mentally weak? It's an odd thing to say, especially when European drivers have statistically been the most successful in F1- you don’t become successful without a certain amount of mental strength.

I think his comments on Hamilton were a little below the belt. Personally, I would rate Hamilton as the best on the current grid, along with Ric. Montoya seems to be questioning Hamilton’s abilities to handle pressure, how he copes when things don’t go to plan, yet we saw Hamilton brush off disappointments in 2016 and battle all the way to the bitter end. Curiously he praises Vettel, who I felt almost had a complete meltdown in 2016, venting his frustrations in a more inappropriate manner than any other driver. There were times when Alonso lost the plot too and acted inappropriately under pressure so for him to single out Hamilton, doesn’t sit comfortably. And his comments about it being easy to look good in the best car, he seems to have completely blanked Hamilton’s career in the less dominant, and sometimes average McLarens where he not only beat/matched Alonso, but proved his worth. .

I appreciate Montoya is voicing an opinion, but i think it's complete bullshit

[myattitude]

I have a feeling some SJWs on here are this close from playing the racist card for JPM's view on European drivers. It's just his observation of the cultures, relax. Besides, Americans (continent) are much less morally snowflaky than Europeans and don't get bugged over tiny little things like we do. I'm a European and I see this pattern. PATTERN is the key word here. He's certainly right about Hamilton, just look at 2011.

[SR1]

I have a feeling some SJWs on here are this close from playing the racist card for JPM's view on European drivers. It's just his observation of the cultures, relax. Besides, Americans (continent) are much less morally snowflaky than Europeans and don't get bugged over tiny little things like we do. I'm a European and I see this pattern. PATTERN is the key word here. He's certainly right about Hamilton, just look at 2011.

But look at Vettel in 2014 & 2016. Look how Alonso poorly handled the pressure in 2007. There was no need to single out Hamilton in my view,

[myattitude]

I have a feeling some SJWs on here are this close from playing the racist card for JPM's view on European drivers. It's just his observation of the cultures, relax. Besides, Americans (continent) are much less morally snowflaky than Europeans and don't get bugged over tiny little things like we do. I'm a European and I see this pattern. PATTERN is the key word here. He's certainly right about Hamilton, just look at 2011.

But look at Vettel in 2014 & 2016. Look how Alonso poorly handled the pressure in 2007. There was no need to single out Hamilton in my view,

I don't think he said Vettel is mentally strong, he said he's one of the top two drivers. I think that's wrong, but anyway.

Alonso is European. But I think Alonso is one of the tough nuts in some respects like in politics and race nerve, but weak in other respects like when things don't go his way he whines on the radio or turns on his team. He turned on Renault, Macca and Ferrari. He seems more chilled now though.

BTW, Montoya was very error prone and fell out with both his teams too.

I think he was thinking about mental toughness in regards to turning up and being a positive driver or withering away when a driver gets under your skin. That was my take.

[Donington93]

Montoya's comments were stupid. There are strong drivers that come from both the new world and the old world. Hamilton was mentally strong enough to rattle Alonso (who many consider the best there is) on several occasions, yet Montoya denigrates Hamilton and not Alonso. Interesting. What is his agenda?

[schumilegend]

Well its clear he doesn't like Hamilton..Bigging up Alonso works for him as he directly competed with Alonso and bigging up his competitors as being better than new generation drivers is like saying he is better than them as well..
As far as Vettel - i think he just seems to like him as a person and is always complimenting of him..

[F1_Ernie]

"Lewis does a really good job but his in the best car" which is a fair comment but then Montoya says Vettel is the best because how he handles things and endured not being in the best car.

Fair enough if you think Vettel is the best but at least come up with some good reasons why.

Does he remember the 4 years Vettel was winning titles? Does he remember the rubbish fans have to put up with over the radio? Vettel got beaten in his first season out the best car. Seems to handle it well to me.

[kleefton]

Very poorly thought out comments by Pablo in my opinion. Vettel is among the top 2 drivers? Has he been watching F1 recently? Coming off 2014 and 2016 I don't see how you can put Vettel in the top 2 drivers in the world.
And Lewis only does a good job when he the best car? What happened in 2009-2013 when he didn't have the best car and still won at least a race in all of these years?
These former F1 drivers are so agenda driven. He obviously doesn't like Lewis and Ralf as much as he likes Seb and Fernando. Thanks for letting us know Pablo.
He also has no business stereotyping drivers. Like pointed out before, mentally weak drivers come from all different places.
Basically with his comments he is simply waving his middle finger at the F1 series as most of the drivers are Europeans. Typical for guys that race Indy after being ousted from Formula 1. I like Pablo, but sorry, noone in their right mind is going to buy what he is selling in that interview.

[sandman1347]

If you listen closely enough to any racing driver's comments they are almost always talking about themselves.

[mikeyg123]

I think European drivers are far more mentally tough than some in America personally. Montana himself flounced off when things weren't going his way. I don't remember Ralf doing that.

Good to see Schumacher JR getting the credit he deserves though. I honestly think he could have been champion in 03 had he not missed a couple of races.

A curious statement...

I have not been ablebto read JPM's interview which apparently prompted thes comments, but just this comment is irritating... for us mentally weak, apparently, non-European.

So just what constitutes a "mentally tough driver" and is it someting in the water that makes European drivers "far more mentally tough"? So Ralphie didn't "flounce off"... yet JPM did? And that supposedly proves your point?

JPM "flounced" to another racing series... the "lowly" NASCAR series. He also raced in endurance sports cars and is now in INDY cars again. Ah, the shame of not being one of the "far mentally tougher" European drivers like Ralph. Seriously???

All hail those mentally tougher European drivers. This is getting ridiculous.

Perhaps you should be a bit mentally tougher yourself and not overreact, get so upset and draw a ridiculous conclusion from a simple sentence.

I stand by what I said. I think European drivers are far more mentally tough than some of their counterparts from the Americas.

[Blake]

I think European drivers are far more mentally tough than some in America personally. Montana himself flounced off when things weren't going his way. I don't remember Ralf doing that.

Good to see Schumacher JR getting the credit he deserves though. I honestly think he could have been champion in 03 had he not missed a couple of races.

A curious statement...

I have not been ablebto read JPM's interview which apparently prompted thes comments, but just this comment is irritating... for us mentally weak, apparently, non-European.

So just what constitutes a "mentally tough driver" and is it someting in the water that makes European drivers "far more mentally tough"? So Ralphie didn't "flounce off"... yet JPM did? And that supposedly proves your point?

JPM "flounced" to another racing series... the "lowly" NASCAR series. He also raced in endurance sports cars and is now in INDY cars again. Ah, the shame of not being one of the "far mentally tougher" European drivers like Ralph. Seriously???

All hail those mentally tougher European drivers. This is getting ridiculous.

Perhaps you should be a bit mentally tougher yourself and not overreact, get so upset and draw a ridiculous conclusion from a simple sentence.

I stand by what I said. I think European drivers are far more mentally tough than some of their counterparts from the Americas.

The thing is, mikey, YOU made a statement that is more than a "simple sentence"... it was a put-down of American drivers while claiming that the European drivers are far more "mentally tougher". So my not accepting it is "overreacting" and drawing a "ridiculous conclusion". What ridiculous conclusion did I make? You made the statement, mikey... take the heat when it comes. When you put down cultures, races, et al, while upping another as you did, don't be surprised if someone has the guts to respond.

Imagine the reaction if I had made the same statement, only reversing the positions... What if I had made the claim that American drivers are "far more mentally tough" than some of their counterparts from Europe"... would you be willing to let it pass as fact, I suspect not. I would, quite rightly, catch he11 . Would you let it slide by with no response?

I think your statement was wrong, I don't think that you can make a claim that European drivers are tougher mentally than any other cultures, in fact, I think it is asinine to have said it. I pointed out why I think it was wrong to so label JPM, but you didn't bother to address that, instead you chose to tell me that I should be "mentally tougher". I have been responding to such put-downs of American culture, American forumites, American drivers, American racing, American tracks, even an asinine claim that Americans have never made a decent racing engine for years.

Of course, SOME European drivers are going to be mentally tougher than SOME of their counterparts from America... but that is not what you said, is it?

Of course, I could say that SOME American drivers are tougher than SOME of their European counterparts...and guess what... I would be right. All you had to do, mikey, is use the word SOME in reference to both European and American and there would be no real argument. However, you didn't, nor did you when you "doubled down" on your statement.

[Exediron]

And his comments about it being easy to look good in the best car, he seems to have completely blanked Hamilton’s career in the less dominant, and sometimes average McLarens where he not only beat/matched Alonso, but proved his worth.

Lewis has never driven an average F1 car in his life. The only time he came close was in early 2009 - a period over which Alonso outscored him, despite driving a midfield (at best) Renault. Hamilton beat/matched him when they were teammates, but that was in an unquestionably front-running car. Since then, every time they have been in comparable machinery over a season Alonso has finished ahead of him in the standings. Maybe Hamilton is better - although obviously I don't think so - but he's certainly not proved it in uncompetitive cars. He hasn't had the chance.

I stand by what I said. I think European drivers are far more mentally tough than some of their counterparts from the Americas.

That's an awfully meaningless statement. Of course European drivers are mentally tougher than 'some' of their American counterparts. Are you saying they're tougher on average? If so, why do you think so, and can you back it up with any arguments?

[Exediron]

I have a feeling some SJWs on here are this close from playing the racist card for JPM's view on European drivers. It's just his observation of the cultures, relax. Besides, Americans (continent) are much less morally snowflaky than Europeans and don't get bugged over tiny little things like we do. I'm a European and I see this pattern. PATTERN is the key word here. He's certainly right about Hamilton, just look at 2011.

My strong suspicion of anyone who uses the term 'SJW' aside, I think it would be hard to call racism for a comment on a category as broad as 'Europeans'. That's not exactly a race.

[Pullrod]

Well its clear he doesn't like Hamilton..Bigging up Alonso works for him as he directly competed with Alonso and bigging up his competitors as being better than new generation drivers is like saying he is better than them as well..
As far as Vettel - i think he just seems to like him as a person and is always complimenting of him..

He is just a younger J. Stewart. He is always negative when he talks about Lewis.

[Zoue]

Very poorly thought out comments by Pablo in my opinion. Vettel is among the top 2 drivers? Has he been watching F1 recently? Coming off 2014 and 2016 I don't see how you can put Vettel in the top 2 drivers in the world.
And Lewis only does a good job when he the best car? What happened in 2009-2013 when he didn't have the best car and still won at least a race in all of these years?
These former F1 drivers are so agenda driven. He obviously doesn't like Lewis and Ralf as much as he likes Seb and Fernando. Thanks for letting us know Pablo.
He also has no business stereotyping drivers. Like pointed out before, mentally weak drivers come from all different places.
Basically with his comments he is simply waving his middle finger at the F1 series as most of the drivers are Europeans. Typical for guys that race Indy after being ousted from Formula 1. I like Pablo, but sorry, noone in their right mind is going to buy what he is selling in that interview.

Your opening paragraphs are a little contradictory. You may as well argue what happened in 2015 when Vettel didn't have the best car and still won multiple races. Bdetter yet, what about 2009, when Kimi had nowhere near the best car and still won at least one race. Does that mean he drove superbly all year?

[Pullrod]

And his comments about it being easy to look good in the best car, he seems to have completely blanked Hamilton’s career in the less dominant, and sometimes average McLarens where he not only beat/matched Alonso, but proved his worth.

Lewis has never driven an average F1 car in his life. The only time he came close was in early 2009 - a period over which Alonso outscored him, despite driving a midfield (at best) Renault. Hamilton beat/matched him when they were teammates, but that was in an unquestionably front-running car. Since then, every time they have been in comparable machinery over a season Alonso has finished ahead of him in the standings. Maybe Hamilton is better - although obviously I don't think so - but he's certainly not proved it in uncompetitive cars. He hasn't had the chance.

I stand by what I said. I think European drivers are far more mentally tough than some of their counterparts from the Americas.

That's an awfully meaningless statement. Of course European drivers are mentally tougher than 'some' of their American counterparts. Are you saying they're tougher on average? If so, why do you think so, and can you back it up with any arguments?

There is no need to overrate anything Alonso does or has done and underrate anything Hamilton does or has done. Either that or people have very bad memory.

Here are the 2009 F1 season first 8 races results for Alonso and Hamilton.. so much for the midfield(at best) Renault car.
2009 McLaren(first part of the season) were no different to "some" of the McLaren cars(certainly in qualifying) of the past 2 years and was certainly worse than the car Alonso was driving in 2009, at least in the first part of the season.

[Q stands for qualifying]
[R stands for race]

°°°°°°°°° AUS°°°° MAL°°°° CHN°°°° BAH°°°° BAR°°°° MON°°°° TUR°°°° SIL
Alonso°°°° Q12°°° Q10°°°°° Q2°°°°° Q7°°°°° Q8°°°°° Q9°°°°° Q8°°°°° Q10
°°°°°°°°° °R5°°°° R11°°°°° R9°°°°° R8°°°°°° R5°°°°° R7°°°°° R10°°°° R14

Hamilton°° Q15°°°° Q13°°°° Q9°°°°° Q5°°°°° Q14°°°° Q16°°° Q16°°°° Q16
°°°°°°°°°° R3*°°°°° R7°°°°° R6°°°°° R4°°°°° R9°°°°° R12°°°° R13°°°° R16

* Hamilton was disqualified from the Australian GP for things that have nothing to do with his drive to P3. He left Melbourne with 0 points.



Average position in Q ( Alonso 8,25 , Hamilton 13,37 )
Average position in R (Alonso 8,26 , Hamilton 8,75** )

**HAM's AUS P3 position was included.

[Exediron]

There is no need to overrate anything Alonso does or has done and underrate anything Hamilton does or has done. Either that or people have very bad memory.

Here are the 2009 F1 season first 8 races results for Alonso and Hamilton.. so much for the midfield(at best) Renault car.
2009 McLaren(first part of the season) were no different to "some" of the McLaren cars(certainly in qualifying) of the past 2 years and was certainly worse than the car Alonso was driving in 2009, at least in the first part of the season.

Was it? You can't prove that by just comparing Hamilton and Alonso's results. Where did their teammates qualify and finish in those 8 races? I think you'll find that Kovalainen both qualified and finished ahead of Piquet on average.

I looked it up, in fact: Kovi beat Nelson Jr. 7-1 in qualifying, and 2-1 on the rare occasions both finished. Judging by those numbers you'd think the McLaren was clearly the quicker car, wouldn't you? You can't just pull up a head to head and say the driver who won was necessarily driving the better car. Alonso performed better than Hamilton early in the season, unquestionably. But doesn't it say something to you that neither of his teammates could even score 1 point in that car?

[Pullrod]

There is no need to overrate anything Alonso does or has done and underrate anything Hamilton does or has done. Either that or people have very bad memory.

Here are the 2009 F1 season first 8 races results for Alonso and Hamilton.. so much for the midfield(at best) Renault car.
2009 McLaren(first part of the season) were no different to "some" of the McLaren cars(certainly in qualifying) of the past 2 years and was certainly worse than the car Alonso was driving in 2009, at least in the first part of the season.

Was it? You can't prove that by just comparing Hamilton and Alonso's results. Where did their teammates qualify and finish in those 8 races? I think you'll find that Kovalainen both qualified and finished ahead of Piquet on average.

I looked it up, in fact: Kovi beat Nelson Jr. 7-1 in qualifying, and 2-1 on the rare occasions both finished. Judging by those numbers you'd think the McLaren was clearly the quicker car, wouldn't you? You can't just pull up a head to head and say the driver who won was necessarily driving the better car. Alonso performed better than Hamilton early in the season, unquestionably. But doesn't it say something to you that neither of his teammates could even score 1 point in that car?

oh.. that was so predictable and has been Alonso's strategy and I must say it works very well!!
It is certainly better for your reputation to beat your team mate by 120 points(and point it to others) than to win the WDC by beating your team mate by 2 points. No question.

Is it not Piquet the same guy they sent to risk his life hitting the wall so Alonso could win a race in 2008. There is no louder statement than this as a #2 driver.

So I ask again.. Was Renault a midfield car(at best) and worse than the McLaren in 2009(first part of the season)? You have data.
If you was a driver in those first races would you prefer the McLaren or the Renault?


I always base my opinion on the faster driver not the slower. If I did like you and just looked at Button, I would say that the 2012 McLaren was a midfield car in the first part of the season.
It is funny because people say the 2012 McLaren was the fastest car(on speed it could be true) because they focused on Hamilton, but with Alonso it is the opposite.. we have to focus on his teammates.

[Exediron]

Is it not Piquet the same guy they sent to risk his life hitting the wall so Alonso could win a race in 2008. There is no louder statement than this as a #2 driver.

Right, because Kovalainen was definitely not a #2 driver. He got more fuel in qualy to keep him out of Hamilton's way, but he was totally equal-status!

So I ask again.. Was Renault a midfield car(at best) and worse than the McLaren in 2009(first part of the season)? You have data.

Neither do you.

If you was a driver in those first races would you prefer the McLaren or the Renault?

What sort of question is that? I'd prefer the McLaren because they were by far the better funded team, and it was only a matter of time before they fixed the car.

I always base my opinion on the faster driver not the slower. If I did like you and just looked at Button, I would say that the 2012 McLaren was a midfield car in the first part of the season.
It is funny because people say the 2012 McLaren was the fastest car(on speed it could be true) because they focused on Hamilton, but with Alonso it is the opposite.. we have to focus on his teammates.

You shouldn't look at either driver in isolation, but what you're doing is seeing that Alonso performed better and automatically assuming it means the car was better. Since your only justification for that assumption seems to be that performance gap itself, what sort of proof do you have that Alonso didn't simply perform better? I brought up team mates as a form of comparison, in that Hamilton's #2 was clearly ably to get more out of his car than Alonso's #2 was. Do you think Kovi was that much superior to Nelson? How about Grosjean? When Kovi and Grosjean were (briefly) teammates later, it was a one-sided slaughter that ended Kovi's F1 career.

[Pullrod]

Is it not Piquet the same guy they sent to risk his life hitting the wall so Alonso could win a race in 2008. There is no louder statement than this as a #2 driver.

Right, because Kovalainen was definitely not a #2 driver. He got more fuel in qualy to keep him out of Hamilton's way, but he was totally equal-status!

So I ask again.. Was Renault a midfield car(at best) and worse than the McLaren in 2009(first part of the season)? You have data.

Neither do you.

If you was a driver in those first races would you prefer the McLaren or the Renault?

What sort of question is that? I'd prefer the McLaren because they were by far the better funded team, and it was only a matter of time before they fixed the car.

I always base my opinion on the faster driver not the slower. If I did like you and just looked at Button, I would say that the 2012 McLaren was a midfield car in the first part of the season.
It is funny because people say the 2012 McLaren was the fastest car(on speed it could be true) because they focused on Hamilton, but with Alonso it is the opposite.. we have to focus on his teammates.

You shouldn't look at either driver in isolation, but what you're doing is seeing that Alonso performed better and automatically assuming it means the car was better. Since your only justification for that assumption seems to be that performance gap itself, what sort of proof do you have that Alonso didn't simply perform better? I brought up team mates as a form of comparison, in that Hamilton's #2 was clearly ably to get more out of his car than Alonso's #2 was. Do you think Kovi was that much superior to Nelson? How about Grosjean? When Kovi and Grosjean were (briefly) teammates later, it was a one-sided slaughter that ended Kovi's F1 career.

To many things to refute in your post.. of course Alonso is simply better and has always performed better.
No wonder he scored more points than Hamilton in 2009(the first part) with a midfield Renault while Hamilton had a better McLaren.

In 2018 in Mercedes I see Fernando scoring 157 points more than Hamilton. Rosberg will not be pleased

[SR1]

And his comments about it being easy to look good in the best car, he seems to have completely blanked Hamilton’s career in the less dominant, and sometimes average McLarens where he not only beat/matched Alonso, but proved his worth.

Lewis has never driven an average F1 car in his life. The only time he came close was in early 2009 - a period over which Alonso outscored him, despite driving a midfield (at best) Renault. Hamilton beat/matched him when they were teammates, but that was in an unquestionably front-running car. Since then, every time they have been in comparable machinery over a season Alonso has finished ahead of him in the standings. Maybe Hamilton is better - although obviously I don't think so - but he's certainly not proved it in uncompetitive cars. He hasn't had the chance.

I think you have got the wrong end of the stick. My comment "sometimes average McLarens where he not only beat/matched Alonso"- this was meant to be taken in two parts (1) 2007, when Hamilton beat him in the same front running car (2)Average cars of 2009/possibly 2010, with no comparisons to how he performed relative to Alonso in those years. Comparing drivers from different teams at different stages in their personal development is always difficult.

Whether the Renault was worse than the McLaren in the first half of 2009, is debatable, and whether Alonso performed better or worse is actually quite irrelevant to the point I was trying to make.The fact remains, during the first half of 2009, Hamilton drove a very sub-par car and performed reasonably well. Alonso will get praised excessively for reaching the top 10 in the McLaren car of 2016- yet Hamilton quietly achieved similar results in 2009. I may have posted you this link before, appraising Hamilton's 2009 performance,but i think it argues the case more effectively than i can at this stage https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/11/ ... 09-season/
And 2010, he didn’t have the best car, arguably the 3rd best over the season, yet managed to challenge for the title. The point I’m making here is that Montoya's comments seem to completely ignore these kind of performances in Hamilton's career. Like i say, Montoya is entitled to his opinion, but personally, i don't agree.

[Lotus49]

And his comments about it being easy to look good in the best car, he seems to have completely blanked Hamilton’s career in the less dominant, and sometimes average McLarens where he not only beat/matched Alonso, but proved his worth.

Lewis has never driven an average F1 car in his life. The only time he came close was in early 2009 - a period over which Alonso outscored him, despite driving a midfield (at best) Renault. Hamilton beat/matched him when they were teammates, but that was in an unquestionably front-running car. Since then, every time they have been in comparable machinery over a season Alonso has finished ahead of him in the standings. Maybe Hamilton is better - although obviously I don't think so - but he's certainly not proved it in uncompetitive cars. He hasn't had the chance.

I think you have got the wrong end of the stick. My comment "sometimes average McLarens where he not only beat/matched Alonso"- this was meant to be taken in two parts (1) 2007, when Hamilton beat him in the same front running car (2)Average cars of 2009/possibly 2010, with no comparisons to how he performed relative to Alonso in those years. Comparing drivers from different teams at different stages in their development is always difficult.

Whether the Renault was worse than the McLaren in the first half of 2009, is debatable, and whether Alonso performed better or worse is actually quite irrelevant to the point I was trying to make.The fact remains, during the first half of 2009, Hamilton drove a very sub-par car and performed reasonably well. Alonso will get praised excessively for reaching the top 10 in the McLaren car of 2016- yet Hamilton quietly achieved similar results in 2009. I may have posted you this link before, appraising Hamilton's 2009 performance,but i think it argues the case more effectively than i can at this stage https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/11/ ... 09-season/
And 2010, he didn’t have the best car, arguably the 3rd best over the season, yet managed to challenge for the title. The point I’m making here is that Montoya's comments seem to completely ignore these kind of performances in Hamilton's career. Like i say, Montoya is entitled to his opinion, but personally, i don't agree.

With the greatest respect to JA in that link he has a shocker with his reasoning. He (rightly) praises Lewis for his 4th in Aus and Mal but ignores Kova's 5th in between but calls the car undriveable and Lewis a miracle worker but then says Alonso had some good results in a poor car but no miracles (ignoring he got a podium while his team mates couldn't crack the Top 10) but his team mates are no benchmark to judge how impressive that is so Alonso is discounted.

Really?. He ignores both team mates in both instances of his reasoning yes, but uses one instance to big up one driver and the other instance to keep the other down.

Not his finest work here.

[Pullrod]

And his comments about it being easy to look good in the best car, he seems to have completely blanked Hamilton’s career in the less dominant, and sometimes average McLarens where he not only beat/matched Alonso, but proved his worth.

Lewis has never driven an average F1 car in his life. The only time he came close was in early 2009 - a period over which Alonso outscored him, despite driving a midfield (at best) Renault. Hamilton beat/matched him when they were teammates, but that was in an unquestionably front-running car. Since then, every time they have been in comparable machinery over a season Alonso has finished ahead of him in the standings. Maybe Hamilton is better - although obviously I don't think so - but he's certainly not proved it in uncompetitive cars. He hasn't had the chance.

I think you have got the wrong end of the stick. My comment "sometimes average McLarens where he not only beat/matched Alonso"- this was meant to be taken in two parts (1) 2007, when Hamilton beat him in the same front running car (2)Average cars of 2009/possibly 2010, with no comparisons to how he performed relative to Alonso in those years. Comparing drivers from different teams at different stages in their development is always difficult.

Whether the Renault was worse than the McLaren in the first half of 2009, is debatable, and whether Alonso performed better or worse is actually quite irrelevant to the point I was trying to make.The fact remains, during the first half of 2009, Hamilton drove a very sub-par car and performed reasonably well. Alonso will get praised excessively for reaching the top 10 in the McLaren car of 2016- yet Hamilton quietly achieved similar results in 2009. I may have posted you this link before, appraising Hamilton's 2009 performance,but i think it argues the case more effectively than i can at this stage https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/11/ ... 09-season/
And 2010, he didn’t have the best car, arguably the 3rd best over the season, yet managed to challenge for the title. The point I’m making here is that Montoya's comments seem to completely ignore these kind of performances in Hamilton's career. Like i say, Montoya is entitled to his opinion, but personally, i don't agree.

With the greatest respect to JA in that link he has a shocker with his reasoning. He (rightly) praises Lewis for his 4th in Aus and Mal but ignores Kova's 5th in between but calls the car undriveable and Lewis a miracle worker but then says Alonso had some good results in a poor car but no miracles (ignoring he got a podium while his team mates couldn't crack the Top 10) but his team mates are no benchmark to judge how impressive that is so Alonso is discounted.

Really?. He ignores both team mates in both instances of his reasoning yes, but uses one instance to big up one driver and the other instance to keep the other down.

Not his finest work here.

After what happened in Singapore in 2008 It would be dishonest to put Piquet Jr. and Kovalainen at the same level and in the same sentence. Nelsinho has been shot in the head and I am sure JA did take all these things into account.

I don't remember many of his TOP 5 of the season with Hamilton 1st so you can not certainly call him biased... and no, for many(myself included and people like Forghieri), teammate comparison(or points deficit) is not a reliable method to assess the performance of a car.
Did you see the average Hamilton's qualifying position in those races?

[Lotus49]

And his comments about it being easy to look good in the best car, he seems to have completely blanked Hamilton’s career in the less dominant, and sometimes average McLarens where he not only beat/matched Alonso, but proved his worth.

Lewis has never driven an average F1 car in his life. The only time he came close was in early 2009 - a period over which Alonso outscored him, despite driving a midfield (at best) Renault. Hamilton beat/matched him when they were teammates, but that was in an unquestionably front-running car. Since then, every time they have been in comparable machinery over a season Alonso has finished ahead of him in the standings. Maybe Hamilton is better - although obviously I don't think so - but he's certainly not proved it in uncompetitive cars. He hasn't had the chance.

I think you have got the wrong end of the stick. My comment "sometimes average McLarens where he not only beat/matched Alonso"- this was meant to be taken in two parts (1) 2007, when Hamilton beat him in the same front running car (2)Average cars of 2009/possibly 2010, with no comparisons to how he performed relative to Alonso in those years. Comparing drivers from different teams at different stages in their development is always difficult.

Whether the Renault was worse than the McLaren in the first half of 2009, is debatable, and whether Alonso performed better or worse is actually quite irrelevant to the point I was trying to make.The fact remains, during the first half of 2009, Hamilton drove a very sub-par car and performed reasonably well. Alonso will get praised excessively for reaching the top 10 in the McLaren car of 2016- yet Hamilton quietly achieved similar results in 2009. I may have posted you this link before, appraising Hamilton's 2009 performance,but i think it argues the case more effectively than i can at this stage https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/11/ ... 09-season/
And 2010, he didn’t have the best car, arguably the 3rd best over the season, yet managed to challenge for the title. The point I’m making here is that Montoya's comments seem to completely ignore these kind of performances in Hamilton's career. Like i say, Montoya is entitled to his opinion, but personally, i don't agree.

With the greatest respect to JA in that link he has a shocker with his reasoning. He (rightly) praises Lewis for his 4th in Aus and Mal but ignores Kova's 5th in between but calls the car undriveable and Lewis a miracle worker but then says Alonso had some good results in a poor car but no miracles (ignoring he got a podium while his team mates couldn't crack the Top 10) but his team mates are no benchmark to judge how impressive that is so Alonso is discounted.

Really?. He ignores both team mates in both instances of his reasoning yes, but uses one instance to big up one driver and the other instance to keep the other down.

Not his finest work here.

After what happened in Singapore in 2008 It would be dishonest to put Piquet Jr. and Kovalainen at the same level and in the same sentence. Nelsinho has been shot in the head and I am sure JA did take all these things into account.

I don't remember many of his TOP 5 of the season with Hamilton 1st so you can not certainly call him biased... and no, for many(myself included and people like Forghieri), teammate comparison(or points deficit) is not a reliable method to assess the performance of a car.
Did you see the average Hamilton's qualifying position in those races?

We're talking about 2009 and he didn't need to put them at the same level or the same sentence. Just use the same criteria. He ignores Kova's great result to make Lewis's result seem better and he ignores NPJ/Rogro's poor results to exclude Alonso's great results from inclusion.

I'm not calling him biased, just his reasoning is very flawed in that instance and not up to his usual standard.

No, and to be honest I'm not that fussed, I was just passing comment on JA's piece. But without fuel loads those Q stats are worthless anyway for the above debate between yourself and Exediron on what was the quicker car between Renault and McLaren.

If pushed I'd have taken the Renault in qualifying (before Germany) and the McLaren in the race. I seem to remember an issue with the tyres, Renault could get heat into them better than the Macca which helped in Q but hurt in the race. But I'm struggling to remember(or care to be blunt).