How do McLaren return to the forefront

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Covalent
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Re: How do McLaren return to the forefront

Post by Covalent »

Read that Honda are basically trying to create a copy of the Merc engine for next season... Back to square one then? I predict Alonso will be gone before the summer break.

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Re: How do McLaren return to the forefront

Post by Zoue »

Covalent wrote:Read that Honda are basically trying to create a copy of the Merc engine for next season... Back to square one then? I predict Alonso will be gone before the summer break.

well, to be fair I think I remember reading somewhere that it wasn't possible before because of the token system. But it does offer significant packaging and weight distribution advantages, so why not?

It seems Renault are also engaged in a complete engine redesign, so Honda aren't the only ones.

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Re: How do McLaren return to the forefront

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Zoue wrote:
Covalent wrote:Read that Honda are basically trying to create a copy of the Merc engine for next season... Back to square one then? I predict Alonso will be gone before the summer break.

well, to be fair I think I remember reading somewhere that it wasn't possible before because of the token system. But it does offer significant packaging and weight distribution advantages, so why not?

It seems Renault are also engaged in a complete engine redesign, so Honda aren't the only ones.

Don't know if there are any significant packaging advantages since it will be a larger engine? But yeah it seems obvious the Mercedes design is the way to go, but what I meant with the square one comment is that because the design philosophy is so different they may initially be worse off compared to having spent the tokens on iterations of their work so far. They had only just started to have decent reliability so will that go down the drain as well? In the long game it was probably a wise decision, but as I said I think Alonso will be gone before it comes to fruition.

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Re: How do McLaren return to the forefront

Post by Randine »

Covalent wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Covalent wrote:Read that Honda are basically trying to create a copy of the Merc engine for next season... Back to square one then? I predict Alonso will be gone before the summer break.

well, to be fair I think I remember reading somewhere that it wasn't possible before because of the token system. But it does offer significant packaging and weight distribution advantages, so why not?

It seems Renault are also engaged in a complete engine redesign, so Honda aren't the only ones.

Don't know if there are any significant packaging advantages since it will be a larger engine? But yeah it seems obvious the Mercedes design is the way to go, but what I meant with the square one comment is that because the design philosophy is so different they may initially be worse off compared to having spent the tokens on iterations of their work so far. They had only just started to have decent reliability so will that go down the drain as well? In the long game it was probably a wise decision, but as I said I think Alonso will be gone before it comes to fruition.


I had thought for a while that the token system backed Renault into a corner re design, but didn't realise that Honda needed a complete redesign as well.

I think if they knew they needed a redesign a while ago, then they might have had these new engines in development for a year or more. It won't be like starting from scratch, but you are right that they might take a while to get up to speed.
Especially with only 4 engines to last a whole season.
I hope Honda can do it as I would love to see some real competition in F1 rather then the Merc show we have had for 3 years.
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Re: How do McLaren return to the forefront

Post by Lotus49 »

https://sportiva.shueisha.co.jp/clm/mot ... /index.php

Excerpt from Hasegawa interview from 21.Dec 2016 about the new PU translated from a poster elsewhere..
Hasegawa wrote:2017 PU has changed a lot from the prev units both concept wise and packaging wise. I'm convinced that what we are doing is correct, but we are experiencing difficulties and it hasnt been completed yet. That it's not finished yet at this point is considerably severe, and we as a whole team are feeling pressure too.
However, compared to 2016 where we didnt know what to do and had no idea what we should do, now at least we believe it will be quite competitive if what we are trying to make now can be completed, so the rest is about whether we can make it in time or not


Delighted they're more confident about what they are doing(They talk about consulting with foreign engineers in the interview and there was a rumour they had been working with Mahle and AVL Graz like Ferrari did) and also delighted they seem confident if they can get it working it will be competitive.

Not cool it still wasn't working on December 21st though. It's going to be tight I fear but fingers crossed.
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Re: How do McLaren return to the forefront

Post by Zoue »

Lotus49 wrote:https://sportiva.shueisha.co.jp/clm/motorsports/motorsports/2017/01/10/f12017_split/index.php

Excerpt from Hasegawa interview from 21.Dec 2016 about the new PU translated from a poster elsewhere..
Hasegawa wrote:2017 PU has changed a lot from the prev units both concept wise and packaging wise. I'm convinced that what we are doing is correct, but we are experiencing difficulties and it hasnt been completed yet. That it's not finished yet at this point is considerably severe, and we as a whole team are feeling pressure too.
However, compared to 2016 where we didnt know what to do and had no idea what we should do, now at least we believe it will be quite competitive if what we are trying to make now can be completed, so the rest is about whether we can make it in time or not


Delighted they're more confident about what they are doing(They talk about consulting with foreign engineers in the interview and there was a rumour they had been working with Mahle and AVL Graz like Ferrari did) and also delighted they seem confident if they can get it working it will be competitive.

Not cool it still wasn't working on December 21st though. It's going to be tight I fear but fingers crossed.

good info, thanks. Although the "considerably severe" part is a little concerning 8O

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Re: How do McLaren return to the forefront

Post by Lotus49 »

Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:https://sportiva.shueisha.co.jp/clm/motorsports/motorsports/2017/01/10/f12017_split/index.php

Excerpt from Hasegawa interview from 21.Dec 2016 about the new PU translated from a poster elsewhere..
Hasegawa wrote:2017 PU has changed a lot from the prev units both concept wise and packaging wise. I'm convinced that what we are doing is correct, but we are experiencing difficulties and it hasnt been completed yet. That it's not finished yet at this point is considerably severe, and we as a whole team are feeling pressure too.
However, compared to 2016 where we didnt know what to do and had no idea what we should do, now at least we believe it will be quite competitive if what we are trying to make now can be completed, so the rest is about whether we can make it in time or not


Delighted they're more confident about what they are doing(They talk about consulting with foreign engineers in the interview and there was a rumour they had been working with Mahle and AVL Graz like Ferrari did) and also delighted they seem confident if they can get it working it will be competitive.

Not cool it still wasn't working on December 21st though. It's going to be tight I fear but fingers crossed.

good info, thanks. Although the "considerably severe" part is a little concerning 8O


Just a bit yeah :uhoh: . Delighted they are working with the foreign consultants though, and he does sort of confirm they will use the same combustion techniques because they can't compete without them but won't confirm any specifics.

Q from interviewer............"As you explained while ago, fundamentally different technologies like semi-HCCI is necessary in order to catch up with Merc and Ferrari, right"?.

Hasegawa wrote:I think so. I cannot disclose what sort of technology in specifics yet, but we have researched and considered all those new technologies being talked about publicly. Last May, we discussed possibility of "why not put 2017 development at the core and introduce what can be used for 2016 from there", but we reached the conclusion that we wouldn't be able to make it in time that way



Also confirms they want a customer for 2018 and Sauber and Williams are rumoured to be interested. Really surprised by the Williams bit, I'd read Sauber a few times from different places but that's the first I'd heard Williams mentioned.
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Re: How do McLaren return to the forefront

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Throws some (semi)shade on McLaren in regards to 2017 car that will cheer some people up.....

(Q) ------- Regarding chassis as well, you were forced to struggle due to correlation errors in simulation etc last year, but is 2017 machine alright?

Hasegawa wrote:As a matter of fact, I have no idea (laughs). But I trust the team in McLaren, and think it will be solid at least. As for sudden huge improvement at the timing of big reg change like this year, RBR is a concern among others (laughs). Mclaren is solid for good and bad, so I dont think they will fail big time, but at the same time sth like "it's suddenly got better a lot!" may not happen either, I imagine
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
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Re: How do McLaren return to the forefront

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Lotus49 wrote:Throws some (semi)shade on McLaren in regards to 2017 car that will cheer some people up.....

(Q) ------- Regarding chassis as well, you were forced to struggle due to correlation errors in simulation etc last year, but is 2017 machine alright?

Hasegawa wrote:As a matter of fact, I have no idea (laughs). But I trust the team in McLaren, and think it will be solid at least. As for sudden huge improvement at the timing of big reg change like this year, RBR is a concern among others (laughs). Mclaren is solid for good and bad, so I dont think they will fail big time, but at the same time sth like "it's suddenly got better a lot!" may not happen either, I imagine


It's always been clear to anyone that wanted to actually look that the McLaren chassis was for the most part the 4th or 5th best last year. Not the shining pinnacle of a car that they make out. They've actually Changed their tune on that fact since the season ended which is nice, no need to market so hard any more.

Hopefully they can bring something a bit more special this year, and I'm excited to see what random crazy contraption they'll bring this season as well. For better or worse they always do something weird.
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Re: How do McLaren return to the forefront

Post by Lotus49 »

Blackhander wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:Throws some (semi)shade on McLaren in regards to 2017 car that will cheer some people up.....

(Q) ------- Regarding chassis as well, you were forced to struggle due to correlation errors in simulation etc last year, but is 2017 machine alright?

Hasegawa wrote:As a matter of fact, I have no idea (laughs). But I trust the team in McLaren, and think it will be solid at least. As for sudden huge improvement at the timing of big reg change like this year, RBR is a concern among others (laughs). Mclaren is solid for good and bad, so I dont think they will fail big time, but at the same time sth like "it's suddenly got better a lot!" may not happen either, I imagine


It's always been clear to anyone that wanted to actually look that the McLaren chassis was for the most part the 4th or 5th best last year. Not the shining pinnacle of a car that they make out. They've actually Changed their tune on that fact since the season ended which is nice, no need to market so hard any more.

Hopefully they can bring something a bit more special this year, and I'm excited to see what random crazy contraption they'll bring this season as well. For better or worse they always do something weird.


I'm holding out hope on some crazy looking bargeboards personally. :D

They've been eerily quiet about the whole suspension shenanigans around RB and Mercedes. Don't know if that's good or bad but if they don't come up with something similar in that department, or get it working as well as the others if they've got something similar, they'll struggle I fear.
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Re: How do McLaren return to the forefront

Post by moby »

Not looking like they are going to get it sorted in time is a better position than they have been in of not going to get it sorted.

What is the rule with the engine now? the one that is used in the first race has to be used all year, or can the total design be changed anytime?

That is, can they use last years engine if they need to for the first race, or two, then use the new one? (it wil obviously count as one of the engine allocation)

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Re: How do McLaren return to the forefront

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moby wrote:Not looking like they are going to get it sorted in time is a better position than they have been in of not going to get it sorted.

What is the rule with the engine now? the one that is used in the first race has to be used all year, or can the total design be changed anytime?

That is, can they use last years engine if they need to for the first race, or two, then use the new one? (it wil obviously count as one of the engine allocation)


I'm fairly sure as last year's engines are already homulgated they can use them if need be.and switch to the new engine when they replace the first one.
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Re: How do McLaren return to the forefront

Post by ScottR267 »

I see Zak Brown has confirmed he has signed of the McLaren livery for the new season....could McLaren finally be moving away from the dull colour scheme of the last 2 years? Here's to hoping there's a new livery to start with and secondly that it brings more success!

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Re: How do McLaren return to the forefront

Post by slide »

this thread is pretty much like all the other mc honda threads that never end, and go nowhere-3 years and still only midfield, or can we expect a few podiums in 2017, lets face it , its about time

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Re: How do McLaren return to the forefront

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ScottR267 wrote:I see Zak Brown has confirmed he has signed of the McLaren livery for the new season....could McLaren finally be moving away from the dull colour scheme of the last 2 years? Here's to hoping there's a new livery to start with and secondly that it brings more success!


They've probably just eliminated one more colour from their mix. Can't have those crazy design features such as aesthetics distracting people.

That or they've painted the entire car hospital gown blue so that it finally matches how sterile and heartless the team culture has become
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Re: How do McLaren return to the forefront

Post by nixxxon »

Covalent wrote:Read that Honda are basically trying to create a copy of the Merc engine for next season... Back to square one then? I predict Alonso will be gone before the summer break.

Lol so pessimistic.

Remember that the token system is gone.
They can basically design a completely new PU for every 4 races or so, they can try a Mercedes copy and if it doesnt work they can try another more conservative design.

If Alonso really likes the 2017 cars and allows him to push to the hardest, and if those can allow the better drivers to make a difference, he will probably stay longer than 2017

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Re: How do McLaren return to the forefront

Post by AravJ »

nixxxon wrote:
Covalent wrote:Read that Honda are basically trying to create a copy of the Merc engine for next season... Back to square one then? I predict Alonso will be gone before the summer break.

Lol so pessimistic.

Remember that the token system is gone.
They can basically design a completely new PU for every 4 races or so, they can try a Mercedes copy and if it doesnt work they can try another more conservative design.

If Alonso really likes the 2017 cars and allows him to push to the hardest, and if those can allow the better drivers to make a difference, he will probably stay longer than 2017


Or go extreme and design a new PU for every race if they are willing to take grid penalty's.

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Re: How do McLaren return to the forefront

Post by kleefton »

http://www.grandprix247.com/2017/01/18/ ... kes-sense/

Possible williams-honda partnership? Article makes a lot of sense and i can see redbull wanting a honda power unit too in the future especially if renault starts derating these tag heuer units. Of course assuming that honda can finally put out a competitive engine.

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Re: How do McLaren return to the forefront

Post by ScottR267 »

http://www.mclaren.com/formula1/partner ... 1-1111156/

Another partnership signed up for McLaren! Looks as if this is more of a technical partnership than it is a commercial partnership. Interesting though that it's Jonathan Neale in the header photo and not Zak Brown.

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Re: How do McLaren return to the forefront

Post by ScottR267 »

So is confirmed now that capito has left the team. Whilst I doubt he had any significant involvement in next years car, surely it is alarming that more and more personnel are leaving and yet no one is joining (or at least I haven't heard of anyone new joining, correct me if I'm wrong)

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Re: How do McLaren return to the forefront

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ScottR267 wrote:So is confirmed now that capito has left the team. Whilst I doubt he had any significant involvement in next years car, surely it is alarming that more and more personnel are leaving and yet no one is joining (or at least I haven't heard of anyone new joining, correct me if I'm wrong)

I get the feeling that they're simply getting rid of the deadwood in the team. They don't necessarily need immediate replacements but time will tell as to whether this new 'direction' will pay off for them on the track.
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Re: How do McLaren return to the forefront

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MistaVega23 wrote:
ScottR267 wrote:So is confirmed now that capito has left the team. Whilst I doubt he had any significant involvement in next years car, surely it is alarming that more and more personnel are leaving and yet no one is joining (or at least I haven't heard of anyone new joining, correct me if I'm wrong)

I get the feeling that they're simply getting rid of the deadwood in the team. They don't necessarily need immediate replacements but time will tell as to whether this new 'direction' will pay off for them on the track.

How is Capito the dead wood? He just joined!
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Re: How do McLaren return to the forefront

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Exediron wrote:
MistaVega23 wrote:
ScottR267 wrote:So is confirmed now that capito has left the team. Whilst I doubt he had any significant involvement in next years car, surely it is alarming that more and more personnel are leaving and yet no one is joining (or at least I haven't heard of anyone new joining, correct me if I'm wrong)

I get the feeling that they're simply getting rid of the deadwood in the team. They don't necessarily need immediate replacements but time will tell as to whether this new 'direction' will pay off for them on the track.

How is Capito the dead wood? He just joined!


From what I read I got the impression that the budget he was requiring to turn the team around was far and above what the board were willing to pay, even short term, and that they'd failed to come to a compromise so effectively there was no point in him being there without the resources and both sides agreed to separate
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Re: How do McLaren return to the forefront

Post by ScottR267 »

Dead wood is a little harsh. Surplus to requirements I would say. Another employee leaving to Williams according to motorsport last night! Very alarming that names are leaving yet have not seen anyone come into McLaren!

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Re: How do McLaren return to the forefront

Post by MistaVega23 »

Yes, maybe deadwood was a tad harsh given his relatively short tenure; however given that he was appointed by Ron, I can't help but think that the team are now eager to create a new identity by getting rid of anyone that Ron was involved in appointing during his last 12 months or so running the team.

But then again, that doesn't explain Dave Redding's departure to Williams!
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Re: How do McLaren return to the forefront

Post by mcdo »

Blackhander wrote:
Exediron wrote:
MistaVega23 wrote:
ScottR267 wrote:So is confirmed now that capito has left the team. Whilst I doubt he had any significant involvement in next years car, surely it is alarming that more and more personnel are leaving and yet no one is joining (or at least I haven't heard of anyone new joining, correct me if I'm wrong)

I get the feeling that they're simply getting rid of the deadwood in the team. They don't necessarily need immediate replacements but time will tell as to whether this new 'direction' will pay off for them on the track.

How is Capito the dead wood? He just joined!


From what I read I got the impression that the budget he was requiring to turn the team around was far and above what the board were willing to pay, even short term, and that they'd failed to come to a compromise so effectively there was no point in him being there without the resources and both sides agreed to separate

Unfortunately I reckon Capito was probably right. McLaren aren't going to get to the top being frugal
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Re: How do McLaren return to the forefront

Post by Herb »

MistaVega23 wrote:Yes, maybe deadwood was a tad harsh given his relatively short tenure; however given that he was appointed by Ron, I can't help but think that the team are now eager to create a new identity by getting rid of anyone that Ron was involved in appointing during his last 12 months or so running the team.

But then again, that doesn't explain Dave Redding's departure to Williams!


Wasn't Ron involved in recruiting Brown? So I'm not sure that is the case.

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Re: How do McLaren return to the forefront

Post by Zoue »

Herb wrote:
MistaVega23 wrote:Yes, maybe deadwood was a tad harsh given his relatively short tenure; however given that he was appointed by Ron, I can't help but think that the team are now eager to create a new identity by getting rid of anyone that Ron was involved in appointing during his last 12 months or so running the team.

But then again, that doesn't explain Dave Redding's departure to Williams!


Wasn't Ron involved in recruiting Brown? So I'm not sure that is the case.

Yes, Brown's said more than once that Ron recruited him

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Re: How do McLaren return to the forefront

Post by ScottR267 »

Has anyone heard of any new arrivals into McLaren with the departures they have had?

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Re: How do McLaren return to the forefront

Post by ScottR267 »

Whilst it doesn't appear that McLaren are likely to return to the forefront anytime soon, it does appear that even in troubled times McLaren are picking up sponsorship as per the below, albeit by the importance of sticker on the car it doesn't appear like they'll be big sponsorship in terms of revenue! At least this is something positive......

http://www.teamvvv.com/en/news/comments ... h-Logitech

http://www.eppm.com/industry-news/strat ... claren-f1/

https://www.pitpass.com/58696/McLaren-p ... n-campaign

http://www.mclaren.com/formula1/inside- ... a-5133652/

http://www.blackbook.biz/business_news/ ... an-market/

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Re: How do McLaren return to the forefront

Post by Pole2Win »

I mock Honda a lot, but I'm sad to see them in F1 now. The company that won five straight WDCs before 1992 with Williams and McLaren, now going through a terrible slump.

In a way, Renault's current form is also disastrous for a company whose engines used to be the most coveted on the grid.

The McLaren chassis might not be that good either, since McLaren themselves weren't anything special in 2014 with Mercedes power, but ATM the engine is like an anchor to the team.

Williams is never winning anything either with Mercedes running cars as a constructor and their current driver lineup. :(
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Re: How do McLaren return to the forefront

Post by sandman1347 »

Pole2Win wrote:I mock Honda a lot, but I'm sad to see them in F1 now. The company that won five straight WDCs before 1992 with Williams and McLaren, now going through a terrible slump.

In a way, Renault's current form is also disastrous for a company whose engines used to be the most coveted on the grid.

The McLaren chassis might not be that good either, since McLaren themselves weren't anything special in 2014 with Mercedes power, but ATM the engine is like an anchor to the team.

Williams is never winning anything either with Mercedes running cars as a constructor and their current driver lineup. :(

I too am saddened to see Honda struggle so mightily. I only hope that they stick around for the next major engine rules change and get their act together between now and then so that they can actually take advantage of that opportunity. We need a Japanese manufacturer and it would be great to get an American one as well (though I wouldn't hold my breath on that).

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Re: How do McLaren return to the forefront

Post by Herb Tarlik »

Pole2Win wrote:I mock Honda a lot, but I'm sad to see them in F1 now. The company that won five straight WDCs before 1992 with Williams and McLaren, now going through a terrible slump.

In a way, Renault's current form is also disastrous for a company whose engines used to be the most coveted on the grid.

The McLaren chassis might not be that good either, since McLaren themselves weren't anything special in 2014 with Mercedes power, but ATM the engine is like an anchor to the team.

Williams is never winning anything either with Mercedes running cars as a constructor and their current driver lineup. :(


I would not call Renault's engines a disaster. They may not be #1, but they are good and competitive. Something that can't even be remotely dreamed of Honda's.

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Re: How do McLaren return to the forefront

Post by Pullrod »

Too many people with low energy and bad karma in that team right now..

Engine is not the only problem..

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Re: How do McLaren return to the forefront

Post by Herb Tarlik »

Pullrod wrote:Too many people with low energy and bad karma in that team right now..

Engine is not the only problem..


It's 99.9% of the problem. Fix that and the rest can be worked on. McLaren is going NOWHERE with Honda.

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Re: How do McLaren return to the forefront

Post by davidheath461 »

Herb Tarlik wrote:
Pullrod wrote:Too many people with low energy and bad karma in that team right now..

Engine is not the only problem..


It's 99.9% of the problem. Fix that and the rest can be worked on. McLaren is going NOWHERE with Honda.


but all the bad karma that Alonso brings from 2007 is costing Honda alot of horsepower... :lol:

sandman1347
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Re: How do McLaren return to the forefront

Post by sandman1347 »

I seriously doubt they'd be out of the midfield even with a better engine.

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Pole2Win
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Re: How do McLaren return to the forefront

Post by Pole2Win »

sandman1347 wrote:I seriously doubt they'd be out of the midfield even with a better engine.


2014 strongly hints to that.
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Re: How do McLaren return to the forefront

Post by Exediron »

Pole2Win wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:I seriously doubt they'd be out of the midfield even with a better engine.

2014 strongly hints to that.

Ferrari wasn't out of the midfield that year, either. Just because Macca had a mediocre chassis that year doesn't mean they'd necessarily have one now.
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sandman1347
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Re: How do McLaren return to the forefront

Post by sandman1347 »

Exediron wrote:
Pole2Win wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:I seriously doubt they'd be out of the midfield even with a better engine.

2014 strongly hints to that.

Ferrari wasn't out of the midfield that year, either. Just because Macca had a mediocre chassis that year doesn't mean they'd necessarily have one now.

The deeper question is; can anyone hope to really challenge Ferrari or Mercedes in this era? They have the ability to holistically design their chassis and engine to work in unison with each other and can withold some of the bells and whistles from their customers' engines. How can a customer hope to compete? I think Red Bull must be realizing this themselves now and McLaren must too. That's why they are sticking with Honda. Ultimately, if Honda leaves, McLaren will well and truly complete their journey along the same path that Williams traveled before them.

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