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Herb Tarlik wrote:

rivf1 wrote:Oh dear, new spec engine(well i must say 'reportedly') and two laps https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hond ... st-895362/

Astonishing. Honda's "new" engine spec didnt last a single hot lap. Two installation laps and it was already broken and had to be changed.

I dont think any reasonable person can have hope in Honda anymore. They are beyond pitiful now.

McLaren's decision to go with Honda has proven to be a profound and seemingly endless catastrophe.

You have to wonder if they are mixing inches with millimeters to design their engine parts and ancillaries just to find that their tolerances are all f**ked up and it doesn't fit.

Pullrod wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

Pullrod wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:If he did retire it deliberately it would be to get a new gearbox I would imagine. If they're not getting the points then it's the smart thing go do. But it's just Ted's theories again based on Spanish press. He was putting forward Alonso deliberately ran the car out of fuel in Melbourne too the other week.

He likes his theories about Alonso from everything like the lack of merchandise in the McLaren shop pointing to not even starting the season to sabbaticals and now this. The last couple of seasons have been good for Ted.

I don't want to call you naive but it has been around for a while now and is the reason why Alonso is performing "miracles" with the hopeless McLaren.
There was even a team radio last year(or 2015?) where he said himself he was not interested in using conservative settings just to finish the race(like others around him).
How many times now has he retired the car immediately after an overtake? And how many times has he congratulated himself on the radio after a good move?

Alonso is very sharp and I always called him a marketing genius(no joke). He would have made a fortune if he was not a driver with his ability to warp reality. Shrewd.

No offence but you make Ted look like Briatore when it comes to Alonso theories so I'm not surprised you like them.

Think about it..
Alonso will always get the benefit of the doubt and unlike Vandoorne, he is in the position where he dictates his strategy and decides what to do or not in the race.

It makes sense to burn your fuel, kill your tyres and use aggressive settings to pass cars and make the show(also on the radio) and then complain when you are without juice saying the engine is rubbish and it is not your fault if you can not fight.

Giving the objective catastrophic state in which McLaren is now, Alonso will always get higher ratings than the front runners. Win win for him.

It's a great theory. Trouble is it contradicts with even Ted's theory. There is little point trying 100% to score points(Which is what Spanish press said and is the genesis for Ted's latest theory) but retire if it's not going to happen when you're deliberately running yourself out of fuel and are never making the points anyway.

Points are never going to be on offer if you deliberately run out of fuel so which is it?. Is he trying to score points or not?.

Or is this one your theory?.

And McLaren-Honda of course are not just cool with this, they actively seek to keep him and even go to the added trouble of giving him a Honda to drive in Indy.

Does Alonso have compromising photo's of the Honda bosses or something?. They do have access to the same telemetry McLaren do you know. Why let him get away with it?.


Deliberately retiring the car and coming up with BS excuse if you're not going to make the points is believable, not just believable but under current regulations sensible, and something we've seen from every team. Honda wouldn't rat them out either so while I'm sure they'd be happier if he said gearbox or just "somethings wrong" rather than say it's the engine again, they would keep it to themselves I'm sure so they get to replace some parts for free.

Yours isn't. Hasegawa would be straight to the Japanese press telling them there was no issue with the PU at all and Alonso just keeps running the car out of fuel for fun. What's in it for them to invite even more ire from the Honda board and world press?.

Ted's original fuel theory at least happened in a race where the car got the blame for the stoppage(Suspension-Oz) so you could argue Honda would be willing to keep that one under wraps because they got no extra ire for it.

But this one I can't see the angle for Honda at all.

And also it would be strange that Stoff's car being run sensibly is getting more issues than Alonso's being run full beans all race.

Nothing about "fuelgate" makes much sense with the exception of Oz, at least that one I can buy from the angle of Honda playing along at least.

Lotus49 wrote:And also it would be strange that Stoff's car being run sensibly is getting more issues than Alonso's being run full beans all race.

Nothing about "fuelgate" makes much sense with the exception of Oz, at least that one I can buy from the angle of Honda playing along at least.

Of course, if you want to go down the conspiracy path, Alonso's car not finishing means it did not get checked for legality during the race as far as he went.....


Were they not saying the Mclaren was the lightest ever?

Paint a number 4 on the front of the car.

... that's almost as lame as the engine.

Herb Tarlik wrote:

rivf1 wrote:Oh dear, new spec engine(well i must say 'reportedly') and two laps https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hond ... st-895362/

Astonishing. Honda's "new" engine spec didnt last a single hot lap. Two installation laps and it was already broken and had to be changed.

I dont think any reasonable person can have hope in Honda anymore. They are beyond pitiful now.

McLaren's decision to go with Honda has proven to be a profound and seemingly endless catastrophe.

Unbelievable. Their decision to stick with honda is even worse at this point. This is a hopeless marriage. They need to get out.

shay550 wrote:Would Mclaren Honda be allowed to do the following?

1) Withdraw from this season in F1.
2) Rent out Suzuka from now until the end of the year. Owned by a subsidiary of Honda.
3) Do unlimited testing
4) Come back next year with a better car/engine package.

This would save them the public relations disaster that they are currently facing, and the expense of taking their scrap-heap of a car from country to country.

What I don't understand is, can't honda have the whole engine and power unit on a bench and do 24hr bench testing with simulated tracks and races with every possible variable programmed into test?

Why don't think throw several million $ at a great engine engineer and just say "fix the damn thing"? Stop the bleeding some how!!!

mds wrote:

moby wrote: They do not have to withdraw. The rules only stop them testing with the engine that is in the F1 car now.

They can design and test 5 different engines as much as they like as long as it is significantly different from the one in the car.

They can't use the car though. It would have to be some kind of testing mule, vastly differing from one that is compliant to the 2017 technical regulations.

throw the dang thing is a 2016 car and test it all day and all night. Should be able to get some decent comparison data by using a known chassis and the capabilities of the car, before and after.

Hell, throw the dang thing in a stupid modified indycar until you can get it to run 50 laps and feel secure enough with the reliability then thrown it in the 2016 car.

I am almost to the point where I'd rather see Alonso in IndyCar the rest of the year, at least he has a chance to win and also RACE wheel to wheel. When Honda figures out the f1 project, then he can go back to F1 (i don't expect this to happen, but I kind of wonder if there might be a slight possibility). I like F1 much more than Indycar, but I am a big Alonso fan and hate seeing this.

rodH wrote:

shay550 wrote:Would Mclaren Honda be allowed to do the following?

1) Withdraw from this season in F1.
2) Rent out Suzuka from now until the end of the year. Owned by a subsidiary of Honda.
3) Do unlimited testing
4) Come back next year with a better car/engine package.

This would save them the public relations disaster that they are currently facing, and the expense of taking their scrap-heap of a car from country to country.

What I don't understand is, can't honda have the whole engine and power unit on a bench and do 24hr bench testing with simulated tracks and races with every possible variable programmed into test?

Why don't think throw several million $ at a great engine engineer and just say "fix the damn thing"? Stop the bleeding some how!!!

I would have thought that by now each engine they bring would have had a short test run on a bench.
There may be thoughts of saving mileage on the engine, but to quit after 2 laps is just daft.

As you say, it seems sensible to have the complete car on a rolling road, as you see at your local garage, and putting mile after mile on it even if it is not representative of a race. They can then at least have as much monitoring equipment on as they like, and can swap engines twice a day if needed.

Also, I struggle to believe they only built tested and developed one (type of) engine after the problems they had this last couple of years. I would have had a best option and a safe option being built at the same time incase one turned out like, erm, this one

kleefton wrote:

Herb Tarlik wrote:

rivf1 wrote:Oh dear, new spec engine(well i must say 'reportedly') and two laps https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hond ... st-895362/

Astonishing. Honda's "new" engine spec didnt last a single hot lap. Two installation laps and it was already broken and had to be changed.

I dont think any reasonable person can have hope in Honda anymore. They are beyond pitiful now.

McLaren's decision to go with Honda has proven to be a profound and seemingly endless catastrophe.

Unbelievable. Their decision to stick with honda is even worse at this point. This is a hopeless marriage. They need to get out.

I agree. The Honda disaster is gaining speed, not slowing down. McLaren needs to get out of this situation NOW, not next year. Whatever it takes, drop Honda ASAP.

Herb Tarlik wrote:

kleefton wrote:

Herb Tarlik wrote:

rivf1 wrote:Oh dear, new spec engine(well i must say 'reportedly') and two laps https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hond ... st-895362/

Astonishing. Honda's "new" engine spec didnt last a single hot lap. Two installation laps and it was already broken and had to be changed.

I dont think any reasonable person can have hope in Honda anymore. They are beyond pitiful now.

McLaren's decision to go with Honda has proven to be a profound and seemingly endless catastrophe.

Unbelievable. Their decision to stick with honda is even worse at this point. This is a hopeless marriage. They need to get out.

I agree. The Honda disaster is gaining speed, not slowing down. McLaren needs to get out of this situation NOW, not next year. Whatever it takes, drop Honda ASAP.

I'm starting to get the impression that you work for Toyota.

Black_Flag_11 wrote:

Herb Tarlik wrote:

kleefton wrote:

Herb Tarlik wrote:

rivf1 wrote:Oh dear, new spec engine(well i must say 'reportedly') and two laps https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hond ... st-895362/

Astonishing. Honda's "new" engine spec didnt last a single hot lap. Two installation laps and it was already broken and had to be changed.

I dont think any reasonable person can have hope in Honda anymore. They are beyond pitiful now.

McLaren's decision to go with Honda has proven to be a profound and seemingly endless catastrophe.

Unbelievable. Their decision to stick with honda is even worse at this point. This is a hopeless marriage. They need to get out.

I agree. The Honda disaster is gaining speed, not slowing down. McLaren needs to get out of this situation NOW, not next year. Whatever it takes, drop Honda ASAP.

I'm starting to get the impression that you work for Toyota.

That's weird. I can't figure out how your able to make such a bizarre conclusion.

Black_Flag_11 wrote:

Herb Tarlik wrote:

kleefton wrote:

Herb Tarlik wrote:

rivf1 wrote:Oh dear, new spec engine(well i must say 'reportedly') and two laps https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hond ... st-895362/

Astonishing. Honda's "new" engine spec didnt last a single hot lap. Two installation laps and it was already broken and had to be changed.

I dont think any reasonable person can have hope in Honda anymore. They are beyond pitiful now.

McLaren's decision to go with Honda has proven to be a profound and seemingly endless catastrophe.

Unbelievable. Their decision to stick with honda is even worse at this point. This is a hopeless marriage. They need to get out.

I agree. The Honda disaster is gaining speed, not slowing down. McLaren needs to get out of this situation NOW, not next year. Whatever it takes, drop Honda ASAP.

I'm starting to get the impression that you work for Toyota.

Same old, new nick.

Black_Flag_11 wrote:

Herb Tarlik wrote:

kleefton wrote:

Herb Tarlik wrote:

rivf1 wrote:Oh dear, new spec engine(well i must say 'reportedly') and two laps https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hond ... st-895362/

Astonishing. Honda's "new" engine spec didnt last a single hot lap. Two installation laps and it was already broken and had to be changed.

I dont think any reasonable person can have hope in Honda anymore. They are beyond pitiful now.

McLaren's decision to go with Honda has proven to be a profound and seemingly endless catastrophe.

Unbelievable. Their decision to stick with honda is even worse at this point. This is a hopeless marriage. They need to get out.

I agree. The Honda disaster is gaining speed, not slowing down. McLaren needs to get out of this situation NOW, not next year. Whatever it takes, drop Honda ASAP.

I'm starting to get the impression that you work for Toyota.

Ah yes, Toyota who arrived in a blaze of Glory, and left in, erm, just left

rodH wrote:

shay550 wrote:Would Mclaren Honda be allowed to do the following?

1) Withdraw from this season in F1.
2) Rent out Suzuka from now until the end of the year. Owned by a subsidiary of Honda.
3) Do unlimited testing
4) Come back next year with a better car/engine package.

This would save them the public relations disaster that they are currently facing, and the expense of taking their scrap-heap of a car from country to country.

What I don't understand is, can't honda have the whole engine and power unit on a bench and do 24hr bench testing with simulated tracks and races with every possible variable programmed into test?

Why don't think throw several million $ at a great engine engineer and just say "fix the damn thing"? Stop the bleeding some how!!!

not sure if you remember 2013, but Ron Dennis said EXACTLY this. He has never seen any facility close to Honda's Sakura. He said they have rows and rows of dynos running 24 hrs, and can simulate real world conditions better than any other facility in F1. We now know how full of BS him and Honda were.

ReservoirDog wrote:

rodH wrote:

shay550 wrote:Would Mclaren Honda be allowed to do the following?

1) Withdraw from this season in F1.
2) Rent out Suzuka from now until the end of the year. Owned by a subsidiary of Honda.
3) Do unlimited testing
4) Come back next year with a better car/engine package.

This would save them the public relations disaster that they are currently facing, and the expense of taking their scrap-heap of a car from country to country.

What I don't understand is, can't honda have the whole engine and power unit on a bench and do 24hr bench testing with simulated tracks and races with every possible variable programmed into test?

Why don't think throw several million $ at a great engine engineer and just say "fix the damn thing"? Stop the bleeding some how!!!

not sure if you remember 2013, but Ron Dennis said EXACTLY this. He has never seen any facility close to Honda's Sakura. He said they have rows and rows of dynos running 24 hrs, and can simulate real world conditions better than any other facility in F1. We now know how full of BS him and Honda were.

I realise it's fashionable to blame Ron for everything, but how exactly is it his fault that Honda have made such a mess of things?

Zoue wrote:

ReservoirDog wrote:

rodH wrote:

shay550 wrote:Would Mclaren Honda be allowed to do the following?

1) Withdraw from this season in F1.
2) Rent out Suzuka from now until the end of the year. Owned by a subsidiary of Honda.
3) Do unlimited testing
4) Come back next year with a better car/engine package.

This would save them the public relations disaster that they are currently facing, and the expense of taking their scrap-heap of a car from country to country.

What I don't understand is, can't honda have the whole engine and power unit on a bench and do 24hr bench testing with simulated tracks and races with every possible variable programmed into test?

Why don't think throw several million $ at a great engine engineer and just say "fix the damn thing"? Stop the bleeding some how!!!

not sure if you remember 2013, but Ron Dennis said EXACTLY this. He has never seen any facility close to Honda's Sakura. He said they have rows and rows of dynos running 24 hrs, and can simulate real world conditions better than any other facility in F1. We now know how full of BS him and Honda were.

I realise it's fashionable to blame Ron for everything, but how exactly is it his fault that Honda have made such a mess of things?

It's not, and now that he has landed on his feet with a cushy government job and a nice country estate to gherkin his money away on, i'm not sure he entirely cares lol. Rumour is he is selling his last 25% in McLaren and waving bye bye..... I'm watching with fevered interest to see if one of motorsports last old beasts fancies one last crack.

ReservoirDog wrote:

rodH wrote:

shay550 wrote:Would Mclaren Honda be allowed to do the following?

1) Withdraw from this season in F1.
2) Rent out Suzuka from now until the end of the year. Owned by a subsidiary of Honda.
3) Do unlimited testing
4) Come back next year with a better car/engine package.

This would save them the public relations disaster that they are currently facing, and the expense of taking their scrap-heap of a car from country to country.

What I don't understand is, can't honda have the whole engine and power unit on a bench and do 24hr bench testing with simulated tracks and races with every possible variable programmed into test?

Why don't think throw several million $ at a great engine engineer and just say "fix the damn thing"? Stop the bleeding some how!!!

not sure if you remember 2013, but Ron Dennis said EXACTLY this. He has never seen any facility close to Honda's Sakura. He said they have rows and rows of dynos running 24 hrs, and can simulate real world conditions better than any other facility in F1. We now know how full of BS him and Honda were.

But Ron, if Honda builds s+++ engines and strap them to dynos, all the've got are a s+++ engines on dynos...

So it seems they had a really good day in the test.

That's the good news. The bad is, they've no idea why everything just started working, so it could all go pear shaped again at any moment. They haven't fixed the problems, exactly; they appear to have gone into hiding

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mcla ... 17-895912/

Saw that Stoffel was only around .5 off of Vettel in testing today and P4. FA is usually .2-.4 quicker than Stoffel, so this is good news (assuming it is reality and the motor can last more than 3 laps)

rodH wrote:Saw that Stoffel was only around .5 off of Vettel in testing today and P4. FA is usually .2-.4 quicker than Stoffel, so this is good news (assuming it is reality and the motor can last more than 3 laps)

It would be good if they knew why today was successful.

Sorry. I'm a McLaren fan, and starting to get demoralised. Struggling to see the positives!

Zoue wrote:So it seems they had a really good day in the test.

That's the good news. The bad is, they've no idea why everything just started working, so it could all go pear shaped again at any moment. They haven't fixed the problems, exactly; they appear to have gone into hiding

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mcla ... 17-895912/

It's a good sign though. At least the pace exists to be unlocked

Did Honda bring any new parts/upgrades or does this appear to be something that's happened completely randomly?

rodH wrote:Saw that Stoffel was only around .5 off of Vettel in testing today and P4. FA is usually .2-.4 quicker than Stoffel, so this is good news (assuming it is reality and the motor can last more than 3 laps)

I wouldn't take anything away from the times - Vettel was 3 tenths up on Sainz whereas in qualifying Vettel was about a second and a half up on the best Toro Rosso. Think McLaren tried a few hot laps (and on the US tyre as well IIRC) and the others never bothered.

Good mileage no doubt, but not knowing why it went well is almost worse than having worse mileage but actually solving one or a few problems.

GingerFurball wrote:Did Honda bring any new parts/upgrades or does this appear to be something that's happened completely randomly?

You didn't read any of the posts above yours?

GingerFurball wrote:Did Honda bring any new parts/upgrades or does this appear to be something that's happened completely randomly?

Both really, although there is conflicting reports as to exactly what went on with the MGU-H.

New solutions were tried in the PU to help reliability and were successful. Also work on mapping to improve power delivery. That came from both Albert Fabrega and Nakamura*.

Eric said they didn't know why the other H units failed and the one they used during yesterday's successful running didn't as there was no common cause. https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mcla ... 17-895912/

Nakamura (Honda head technician*) though said they took counter measures about the H which worked. http://www.speedweek.com/formel1/news/1 ... ulegt.html



Also looks like the PU upgrade will be in Canada. New cylinder heads and revised combustion process. Looks like they are still struggling to find the right pre chamber system.

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 11803.html

Eric bouiller: "we obviously changed the mgu-h i think"

He thinks? As hes not sure? How?

This is scary to be honest.

mds wrote:

rodH wrote:Saw that Stoffel was only around .5 off of Vettel in testing today and P4. FA is usually .2-.4 quicker than Stoffel, so this is good news (assuming it is reality and the motor can last more than 3 laps)

I wouldn't take anything away from the times - Vettel was 3 tenths up on Sainz whereas in qualifying Vettel was about a second and a half up on the best Toro Rosso. Think McLaren tried a few hot laps (and on the US tyre as well IIRC) and the others never bothered.

Good mileage no doubt, but not knowing why it went well is almost worse than having worse mileage but actually solving one or a few problems.

Actually I take this as HUGE upgrade. The fact that he (not FA, but Stoffel) was somewhat close to Vettal. Plus they were close or faster than many other teams around them, and as a BONUS they put in a ton of laps without the failure. Also, They admitted that they "found" a lot of speed (even though they don't know why). I would take this as a positive, so stop trying to ruin my Christmas moment

kleefton wrote:Eric bouiller: "we obviously changed the mgu-h i think"

He thinks? As hes not sure? How?

This is scary to be honest.

The lack of communication between McLaren's top guys and Honda's really is a worry. Either Eric is telling porkies to make Honda look worse, Honda(Nakamura) telling porkies to cover up not knowing why some failed and others didn't or McLaren's top brass aren't even asking Honda's head technician what they're putting on the car.

It's a cluster...

rodH wrote:

mds wrote:

rodH wrote:Saw that Stoffel was only around .5 off of Vettel in testing today and P4. FA is usually .2-.4 quicker than Stoffel, so this is good news (assuming it is reality and the motor can last more than 3 laps)

I wouldn't take anything away from the times - Vettel was 3 tenths up on Sainz whereas in qualifying Vettel was about a second and a half up on the best Toro Rosso. Think McLaren tried a few hot laps (and on the US tyre as well IIRC) and the others never bothered.

Good mileage no doubt, but not knowing why it went well is almost worse than having worse mileage but actually solving one or a few problems.

Actually I take this as HUGE upgrade. The fact that he (not FA, but Stoffel) was somewhat close to Vettal. Plus they were close or faster than many other teams around them, and as a BONUS they put in a ton of laps without the failure. Also, They admitted that they "found" a lot of speed (even though they don't know why). I would take this as a positive, so stop trying to ruin my Christmas moment

Vandoorne is no slouch. I believe in a normal situation he'd be able to qualify as well as Alonso. Yesterday seemed like what should be a "normal situation"

mcdo wrote:Vandoorne is no slouch. I believe in a normal situation he'd be able to qualify as well as Alonso. Yesterday seemed like what should be a "normal situation"

There's a pretty big gulf between 'no slouch' and 'able to qualify as well as Alonso'. I'd certainly agree with the first, but the second is a big ask for a driver who's barely more than a rookie. That would be saying Vandoorne is already one of the top 4 or 5 drivers on the grid in terms of pace, based on the best comparisons we have.

Exediron wrote:

mcdo wrote:Vandoorne is no slouch. I believe in a normal situation he'd be able to qualify as well as Alonso. Yesterday seemed like what should be a "normal situation"

There's a pretty big gulf between 'no slouch' and 'able to qualify as well as Alonso'. I'd certainly agree with the first, but the second is a big ask for a driver who's barely more than a rookie. That would be saying Vandoorne is already one of the top 4 or 5 drivers on the grid in terms of pace, based on the best comparisons we have.

I just believe he's that good. With all things being equal (which is a big ask this year) I'd genuinely be shocked if Alonso maintained this level of performance over him. Now, I'm happy to see Alonso continue to display dominance over his teammates. But it would surprise me, that's all

Zoue wrote:

ReservoirDog wrote:

rodH wrote:

shay550 wrote:Would Mclaren Honda be allowed to do the following?

1) Withdraw from this season in F1.
2) Rent out Suzuka from now until the end of the year. Owned by a subsidiary of Honda.
3) Do unlimited testing
4) Come back next year with a better car/engine package.

This would save them the public relations disaster that they are currently facing, and the expense of taking their scrap-heap of a car from country to country.

What I don't understand is, can't honda have the whole engine and power unit on a bench and do 24hr bench testing with simulated tracks and races with every possible variable programmed into test?

Why don't think throw several million $ at a great engine engineer and just say "fix the damn thing"? Stop the bleeding some how!!!

not sure if you remember 2013, but Ron Dennis said EXACTLY this. He has never seen any facility close to Honda's Sakura. He said they have rows and rows of dynos running 24 hrs, and can simulate real world conditions better than any other facility in F1. We now know how full of BS him and Honda were.

I realise it's fashionable to blame Ron for everything, but how exactly is it his fault that Honda have made such a mess of things?

Of course it's Honda's fault.