Do you think Alonso would want to go to Mercedes?

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Do you think Alonso wants to go to Mercedes?

Yes.
67
80%
No.
17
20%
 
Total votes: 84

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Exediron
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Re: Do you think Alonso would want to go to Mercedes?

Post by Exediron »

pokerman wrote:
trento wrote:
Henri Royce wrote:
trento wrote:Not saying Lewis is inferior but lots of people, perhaps yourself forget he did lose to someone n I'm not referring to Rosberg. Well, is Button better than Alonso?
You mean Button "outscoring" Hamilton ?. Had you actually seen the 2012 season ?, Hamilton decimated Button including lapping him in Canada, was it not for the mechanicsl issues Hamilton had then Button would not outscore Hamilton.
One race is not one season.
What season did you actually watch in 2012.
The original quote is clearly talking about 2011. I don't know why this 2012 red herring got introduced - nobody thinks Button was better than Hamilton in 2012.
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Lotus49
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Re: Do you think Alonso would want to go to Mercedes?

Post by Lotus49 »

pokerman wrote:
trento wrote:
ElevenTenths wrote:If Mercedes play fair and stop blowing up Hamilton's engines there is not a driver on the grid that can better Hamilton. If Alonso couldn't put Hamilton away as a rookie, I wonder what makes people think he can do so now. I woudn't even be close.

I see some already making excuses talking about it being "Lewis's team". Lewis has been competitive from day one of every team he has joined and just as Ricciardo proved against Vettel, it really does not matter how long your teammate has been with the team.
U can say the same for Max n Dan when the top teammates couldn't put them away.

Not saying Lewis is inferior but lots of people, perhaps yourself forget he did lose to someone n I'm not referring to Rosberg. Well, is Button better than Alonso?
Button beat Alonso on points in 2015 and was only 6 points behind Alonso this year when he announced his retirement, there wasn't any big performance difference between them at that point, but of course is he better than Alonso then the answer is no, but is Button better than Hamilton then the answer is also no.
Alonso beat him head 2 head and in qualifying. He lost on points because he had car issues in Monaco and Austin and JB scored 12 of his 16pts in those two and Alonso scored none. Overall there were only 5 trouble free weekends for both all year, it's incredibly difficult to gauge anything with such a small sample but you're familiar with how reliability can effect the points outcome,right?.

It was 13 points difference at the time of announcement this year I believe, with McLarens scoring record that can be 2 races worth on a good track with no retirements ahead or 5 or 6 on an average track. It's a fair gap for where the car is.

There was a big performance difference between them in Qualifying this year and a clear one in races both before and after the announcement. But because of reliability we had to keep discounting races.

That stopped since they've been practically bulletproof since Hungary. Brazil has been the only lopsided race really, but that had little to do with taking a year out and more a dodgy car set up.
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MasterRacer
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Re: Do you think Alonso would want to go to Mercedes?

Post by MasterRacer »

Fernando would crush Hamilton into tiny dust particles if he joined the dream team. But I think Mercedes must have a German driver in the team, and there are some very good options to make that happen. So if Fernando joins, Mercedes must fire Hamilton for his dirty tactics in Abu Dhabi and then they can still bring in a German.

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Re: Do you think Alonso would want to go to Mercedes?

Post by Laz_T800 »

MasterRacer wrote:Fernando would crush Hamilton into tiny dust particles if he joined the dream team. But I think Mercedes must have a German driver in the team, and there are some very good options to make that happen. So if Fernando joins, Mercedes must fire Hamilton for his dirty tactics in Abu Dhabi and then they can still bring in a German.
:lol:

2007 would beg to differ.

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Re: Do you think Alonso would want to go to Mercedes?

Post by mcdo »

kleefton wrote:Looks like he is a strong candidate, so far it looks like the Redbull drivers and Vettel are out. I can't see them picking Raikonnen. Werhlein has a good shot, but so does Alonso, if he wants it. The only thing is if Alonso quits on Mclaren Honda it will be confirmation that he wasn't really pleased with their "progress" after all.
He can be pleased with progress and still want to move to the most dominant team of all time. Knowing Alonso's luck he'll jump ship and McLaren-Honda will hit the sweet spot
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Re: Do you think Alonso would want to go to Mercedes?

Post by mcdo »

kleefton wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Donington93 wrote:No because he knows he would be broken into a million pieces by a focused Hamilton. I expect Lewis would out qualify him by a large margin, have about double his total of wins and 1.5x or so his total points. Lewis will be screaming for vengeance next year and adding an over the hill Alonso as a teammate would make it doubly do.
Donington... If Hamilton will be screaming for vengeance (on whom, I wonder?), then how focused is he going to be? Wasn't he focused this year? If he wasn't, why wasn't he? His assumed lack of focus allowed a slower team-mate to win the title. Why would the driver, considered by many to be the best in the world, be unable to trouble him?
It would have been quite a feat to beat a teammate with a dominant car that had 100% reliability. When is the last time a world champion had 100% reliability anyway? Hamilton came close to pull it off though. It is getting awfully hard to accept when people are starting to focus on talking about how Rosberg beat Hamilton. Just saying outscore Hamilton is a lot fairer imo.
Definitely Michael Schumacher and I'd hazard a guess at Vettel too. I don't recall Button having any breakdowns in 2009. I'd wager that there have been a few. Alonso went like 86 races or something without a mechanical retirement, didn't win him the title though
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ReservoirDog
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Re: Do you think Alonso would want to go to Mercedes?

Post by ReservoirDog »

If he doesn't, i'd question his mental state and would consider him unfit to drive altogether. No man in his senses would say no to that seat.

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Re: Do you think Alonso would want to go to Mercedes?

Post by ReservoirDog »

MasterRacer wrote:Fernando would crush Hamilton into tiny dust particles if he joined the dream team. But I think Mercedes must have a German driver in the team, and there are some very good options to make that happen. So if Fernando joins, Mercedes must fire Hamilton for his dirty tactics in Abu Dhabi and then they can still bring in a German.
If Mercedes is the best car of the grid, I don't see Alonso beating Hamilton. If it's second best or tied with RBR/Ferrari, I can see it happening. Alonso isn't the outright fastest driver, and only really shines when there're cars around him. In a straight fight, Hamilton should easily beat him. That is my opinion.

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Re: Do you think Alonso would want to go to Mercedes?

Post by Lotus49 »

If it was winter 2014 or 2015 then I think Alonso would be trying everything to get in that Mercedes seat but we're on the eve of a regulation change with Aero likely to be the deciding factor in performance.

There's not much point in joining Mercedes for a better chance to win a third world title if Red Bull are half a second quicker than them.

It's a better bet than McLaren right now we have to say of course but it's no guarantee anymore and it may be better to wait and see what happens in 2017. Especially if you feel Mercedes aren't going to sign another big name and that there may be another chance to go next winter.

It's not as straightforward for anyone now with the rule change happening. It makes Mercedes job tougher because they don't know what they require (Someone to fight RB or someone to just bring the car home) and the drivers looking at Mercedes who are already at big teams have no idea how their own teams are going to do let alone Mercedes who could end up as a tyre chewing monster again or a dominant force.

Too many unknowns for any straightforward decisions.
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Re: Do you think Alonso would want to go to Mercedes?

Post by ReservoirDog »

Option or Prime wrote:No, I think McLaren/Honda will be a proper team in 2017, Honda must have targeted year 3 as the breakthrough year, plus there is no guarantee Mercedes will dominate again, Alonso would prefer to be in a Newey car, who is done with the Americas cup project now. That won't happen though obviously. Watch out for Red Bull. 2 great drivers, revised Renault PU and Newey, very nice package.
Well, we're guaranteed Merc engine will be the best. Chassis, we can't be too sure. RBR would probably have the upper hand in the dept. Renault may also be close to the Merc engine.

Honda engine will be the first iteration of their new design, so there's about a zero % chance it'll be anywhere close to the best. On the chassis side, McHonda don't have any big names working except for Pompadou. Their organization is also a complete mess, TBH.

My guess is RBR and Merc near the top. Not sure about Ferrari. They can certainly produce an engine that's the equal of Merc, but no idea about the chassis. But what I can say with confidence is that McHonda won't be close to the top.

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Re: Do you think Alonso would want to go to Mercedes?

Post by Pullrod »

ReservoirDog wrote:
MasterRacer wrote:Fernando would crush Hamilton into tiny dust particles if he joined the dream team. But I think Mercedes must have a German driver in the team, and there are some very good options to make that happen. So if Fernando joins, Mercedes must fire Hamilton for his dirty tactics in Abu Dhabi and then they can still bring in a German.
If Mercedes is the best car of the grid, I don't see Alonso beating Hamilton. If it's second best or tied with RBR/Ferrari, I can see it happening. Alonso isn't the outright fastest driver, and only really shines when there're cars around him. In a straight fight, Hamilton should easily beat him. That is my opinion.
I think it is exactly the opposite.
With a dominant car like the Mercedes, Hamilton can not use his strenghts..

If you go back and look at the period 2010 - 2012, when he was driving the McLaren you would find out that:
- he was the only one who was fighting for poles with Vettel
- he was the one who won most of the races when the cars - McLaren/Ferrari/RedBull - had similar pace and he did it a few times overtaking the leader during the later stages of the race.

Mercedes, with their dominance and computer-like behavior has done a disservice to Lewis because he is certainly underrated and whoever goes there has to wish that Mercedes will still be the best car because 3 broken engines mean 3 free wins.

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Re: Do you think Alonso would want to go to Mercedes?

Post by Lotus49 »

ReservoirDog wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:No, I think McLaren/Honda will be a proper team in 2017, Honda must have targeted year 3 as the breakthrough year, plus there is no guarantee Mercedes will dominate again, Alonso would prefer to be in a Newey car, who is done with the Americas cup project now. That won't happen though obviously. Watch out for Red Bull. 2 great drivers, revised Renault PU and Newey, very nice package.
Well, we're guaranteed Merc engine will be the best. Chassis, we can't be too sure. RBR would probably have the upper hand in the dept. Renault may also be close to the Merc engine.

Honda engine will be the first iteration of their new design, so there's about a zero % chance it'll be anywhere close to the best. On the chassis side, McHonda don't have any big names working except for Pompadou. Their organization is also a complete mess, TBH.

My guess is RBR and Merc near the top. Not sure about Ferrari. They can certainly produce an engine that's the equal of Merc, but no idea about the chassis. But what I can say with confidence is that McHonda won't be close to the top.
Losing Exxon Mobil was huge for McLaren unfortunately. They've already stated they expect a performance shortfall using BP/Castrol fuels and lubricants at the start of the season.

Which is a shame because there were genuine reasons to be optimistic. They had a hand in the regulations and Prod isn't very likely to suggest a route to go down if he wasn't confident of coming up with something to fit that route. Also their new design PU has been running on the dynos at Sakura for a while now, at least since Japan which is loads of time to iron out any issues.

Downside being I don't think they have a full chassis dyno like Mercedes and Red Bull so they could have some teething issues once it's put into the car in testing.

It's one of those strange ones where I wouldn't fall off my chair if they were very quick but fragile and fighting for podiums at least or equally unsurprising if they're struggling around 5th and in the midfield.

I can see reasons for both but time will tell.
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

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Re: Do you think Alonso would want to go to Mercedes?

Post by ReservoirDog »

Lotus49 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:No, I think McLaren/Honda will be a proper team in 2017, Honda must have targeted year 3 as the breakthrough year, plus there is no guarantee Mercedes will dominate again, Alonso would prefer to be in a Newey car, who is done with the Americas cup project now. That won't happen though obviously. Watch out for Red Bull. 2 great drivers, revised Renault PU and Newey, very nice package.
Well, we're guaranteed Merc engine will be the best. Chassis, we can't be too sure. RBR would probably have the upper hand in the dept. Renault may also be close to the Merc engine.

Honda engine will be the first iteration of their new design, so there's about a zero % chance it'll be anywhere close to the best. On the chassis side, McHonda don't have any big names working except for Pompadou. Their organization is also a complete mess, TBH.

My guess is RBR and Merc near the top. Not sure about Ferrari. They can certainly produce an engine that's the equal of Merc, but no idea about the chassis. But what I can say with confidence is that McHonda won't be close to the top.
Losing Exxon Mobil was huge for McLaren unfortunately. They've already stated they expect a performance shortfall using BP/Castrol fuels and lubricants at the start of the season.

Which is a shame because there were genuine reasons to be optimistic. They had a hand in the regulations and Prod isn't very likely to suggest a route to go down if he wasn't confident of coming up with something to fit that route. Also their new design PU has been running on the dynos at Sakura for a while now, at least since Japan which is loads of time to iron out any issues.

Downside being I don't think they have a full chassis dyno like Mercedes and Red Bull so they could have some teething issues once it's put into the car in testing.

It's one of those strange ones where I wouldn't fall off my chair if they were very quick but fragile and fighting for podiums at least or equally unsurprising if they're struggling around 5th and in the midfield.

I can see reasons for both but time will tell.
We heard the same in 2013. I remember Ron Dennis saying Sakura facilities are unparalleled and there're rows and rows of dynos running 24/7 and are unlike any other simulators he's ever seen. They could supposedly simulate g-forces, etc. with more precision than any other manufacturer. He waxed lyrical about Sakura non-stop.

And guess what we got? A complete dud. It wasn't just lack of testing, it was a fundamentally inferior design. So I am not going to trust those Sakura simulators a lot.

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Re: Do you think Alonso would want to go to Mercedes?

Post by moby »

ReservoirDog wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:No, I think McLaren/Honda will be a proper team in 2017, Honda must have targeted year 3 as the breakthrough year, plus there is no guarantee Mercedes will dominate again, Alonso would prefer to be in a Newey car, who is done with the Americas cup project now. That won't happen though obviously. Watch out for Red Bull. 2 great drivers, revised Renault PU and Newey, very nice package.
Well, we're guaranteed Merc engine will be the best. Chassis, we can't be too sure. RBR would probably have the upper hand in the dept. Renault may also be close to the Merc engine.

Honda engine will be the first iteration of their new design, so there's about a zero % chance it'll be anywhere close to the best. On the chassis side, McHonda don't have any big names working except for Pompadou. Their organization is also a complete mess, TBH.

My guess is RBR and Merc near the top. Not sure about Ferrari. They can certainly produce an engine that's the equal of Merc, but no idea about the chassis. But what I can say with confidence is that McHonda won't be close to the top.
Losing Exxon Mobil was huge for McLaren unfortunately. They've already stated they expect a performance shortfall using BP/Castrol fuels and lubricants at the start of the season.

Which is a shame because there were genuine reasons to be optimistic. They had a hand in the regulations and Prod isn't very likely to suggest a route to go down if he wasn't confident of coming up with something to fit that route. Also their new design PU has been running on the dynos at Sakura for a while now, at least since Japan which is loads of time to iron out any issues.

Downside being I don't think they have a full chassis dyno like Mercedes and Red Bull so they could have some teething issues once it's put into the car in testing.

It's one of those strange ones where I wouldn't fall off my chair if they were very quick but fragile and fighting for podiums at least or equally unsurprising if they're struggling around 5th and in the midfield.

I can see reasons for both but time will tell.
We heard the same in 2013. I remember Ron Dennis saying Sakura facilities are unparalleled and there're rows and rows of dynos running 24/7 and are unlike any other simulators he's ever seen. They could supposedly simulate g-forces, etc. with more precision than any other manufacturer. He waxed lyrical about Sakura non-stop.

And guess what we got? A complete dud. It wasn't just lack of testing, it was a fundamentally inferior design. So I am not going to trust those Sakura simulators a lot.

Which, with the relaxation of rules next year, could well mean that one of the engines developed in parallel, but could not be used due to the token restrictions, could be the best one out there?

(the way Honda has been doing things since the return, that looks like a pipe dream though)

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Lotus49
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Re: Do you think Alonso would want to go to Mercedes?

Post by Lotus49 »

ReservoirDog wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:No, I think McLaren/Honda will be a proper team in 2017, Honda must have targeted year 3 as the breakthrough year, plus there is no guarantee Mercedes will dominate again, Alonso would prefer to be in a Newey car, who is done with the Americas cup project now. That won't happen though obviously. Watch out for Red Bull. 2 great drivers, revised Renault PU and Newey, very nice package.
Well, we're guaranteed Merc engine will be the best. Chassis, we can't be too sure. RBR would probably have the upper hand in the dept. Renault may also be close to the Merc engine.

Honda engine will be the first iteration of their new design, so there's about a zero % chance it'll be anywhere close to the best. On the chassis side, McHonda don't have any big names working except for Pompadou. Their organization is also a complete mess, TBH.

My guess is RBR and Merc near the top. Not sure about Ferrari. They can certainly produce an engine that's the equal of Merc, but no idea about the chassis. But what I can say with confidence is that McHonda won't be close to the top.
Losing Exxon Mobil was huge for McLaren unfortunately. They've already stated they expect a performance shortfall using BP/Castrol fuels and lubricants at the start of the season.

Which is a shame because there were genuine reasons to be optimistic. They had a hand in the regulations and Prod isn't very likely to suggest a route to go down if he wasn't confident of coming up with something to fit that route. Also their new design PU has been running on the dynos at Sakura for a while now, at least since Japan which is loads of time to iron out any issues.

Downside being I don't think they have a full chassis dyno like Mercedes and Red Bull so they could have some teething issues once it's put into the car in testing.

It's one of those strange ones where I wouldn't fall off my chair if they were very quick but fragile and fighting for podiums at least or equally unsurprising if they're struggling around 5th and in the midfield.

I can see reasons for both but time will tell.
We heard the same in 2013. I remember Ron Dennis saying Sakura facilities are unparalleled and there're rows and rows of dynos running 24/7 and are unlike any other simulators he's ever seen. They could supposedly simulate g-forces, etc. with more precision than any other manufacturer. He waxed lyrical about Sakura non-stop.

And guess what we got? A complete dud. It wasn't just lack of testing, it was a fundamentally inferior design. So I am not going to trust those Sakura simulators a lot.
Sure but the obvious difference is this is a reconfiguring of a known product with known parameters. The one in 2013 was literally a brand new design completely untested and only created a month or two before.

But the point was more that they're not currently working on reconfiguring it, it's already done and being tested for quite a while so it is ahead of schedule. I wasn't claiming that means it's a diamond or anything.
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Re: Do you think Alonso would want to go to Mercedes?

Post by Donington93 »

Hamilton may feel that he lost the title due to circumstances beyond his control. I think he will be especially focused given that. That is the vengeance I speak of, vengeance against the rest of the grid for a title he will feel was lost due to having less reliability than a teammate he felt (rightly) he was a better overall performer than.

Put Alonso in that other car and Lewis will want to bury him to prove once and for all that he is an even better driver than he was in his rookie year and to end all the talk about him only beating Alonso due to being favored by Ron Dennis. I expect if the car is the class of the field that Alonso will not beat Lewis because he will be badly out qualified and he is not as strong as Lewis in the wet (that's not an indictment of Alonso, who I rate at about a 9 in the wet to Lewis' 10). I think of any of the drivers on the grid in a dominant Mercedes they will not beat Lewis unless they have superior reliability. I think in a mid level car or co-dominant car Lewis will also beat Alonso, but in a dog of a car Alonso would win because I don't see Lewis having enough "give a fairy cakes" to get the most out of a dog.

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Re: Do you think Alonso would want to go to Mercedes?

Post by Multi69 »

Yes, and the deal is happening right now. I think Alonso will even sacrifice part of his salary in a show of good faith to assist Mercedes in paying out McLaren an absurd amount of money to break his contract.

Mercedes slogan is 'The best or nothing' after all.

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Re: Do you think Alonso would want to go to Mercedes?

Post by Zoue »

Donington93 wrote:Hamilton may feel that he lost the title due to circumstances beyond his control. I think he will be especially focused given that. That is the vengeance I speak of, vengeance against the rest of the grid for a title he will feel was lost due to having less reliability than a teammate he felt (rightly) he was a better overall performer than.

Put Alonso in that other car and Lewis will want to bury him to prove once and for all that he is an even better driver than he was in his rookie year and to end all the talk about him only beating Alonso due to being favored by Ron Dennis. I expect if the car is the class of the field that Alonso will not beat Lewis because he will be badly out qualified and he is not as strong as Lewis in the wet (that's not an indictment of Alonso, who I rate at about a 9 in the wet to Lewis' 10). I think of any of the drivers on the grid in a dominant Mercedes they will not beat Lewis unless they have superior reliability. I think in a mid level car or co-dominant car Lewis will also beat Alonso, but in a dog of a car Alonso would win because I don't see Lewis having enough "give a fairy cakes" to get the most out of a dog.
What from Alonso's past team mate head to heads leads you to think he would be badly out-qualified by Lewis?

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Re: Do you think Alonso would want to go to Mercedes?

Post by moby »

Multi69 wrote:Yes, and the deal is happening right now. I think Alonso will even sacrifice part of his salary in a show of good faith to assist Mercedes in paying out McLaren an absurd amount of money to break his contract.

Mercedes slogan is 'The best or nothing' after all.
I think Alonso would PAY Merc to let him drive. But it is all about contracts first, and would Alonso fit th bill for Merc second.
They want a 1-2. Hamilton is capable of bringing home a 1, if everything goes to plan, and the thing (other than mechanical fills) most likely to prevent this is pressure from another car. Alonso would never accept a "back off" order.

Is it better to have an aggressive go-getter fighting for places, or a not so hot but reliable and compliant driver who is "just good enough"?

trento
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Re: Do you think Alonso would want to go to Mercedes?

Post by trento »

moby wrote:
Multi69 wrote:Yes, and the deal is happening right now. I think Alonso will even sacrifice part of his salary in a show of good faith to assist Mercedes in paying out McLaren an absurd amount of money to break his contract.

Mercedes slogan is 'The best or nothing' after all.
I think Alonso would PAY Merc to let him drive. But it is all about contracts first, and would Alonso fit th bill for Merc second.
They want a 1-2. Hamilton is capable of bringing home a 1, if everything goes to plan, and the thing (other than mechanical fills) most likely to prevent this is pressure from another car. Alonso would never accept a "back off" order.

Is it better to have an aggressive go-getter fighting for places, or a not so hot but reliable and compliant driver who is "just good enough"?
u can get a compliant driver if the car is fastest. Is Mercedes guaranteed the fastest car 2017? Unlikely due to reg changes and the pace of RB n Ferrari end of season.

If the performance of the teams level out, a compliant driver would potentially ruin their WCC.

Also, a compliant driver would never win the title. Look at the past no.2 drivers, none of them won. Rosberg thought he could be nice and win but he later realised he's gotta be ruthless as well.

lamo

Re: Do you think Alonso would want to go to Mercedes?

Post by lamo »

Donington93 wrote:Hamilton may feel that he lost the title due to circumstances beyond his control. I think he will be especially focused given that. That is the vengeance I speak of, vengeance against the rest of the grid for a title he will feel was lost due to having less reliability than a teammate he felt (rightly) he was a better overall performer than.

Put Alonso in that other car and Lewis will want to bury him to prove once and for all that he is an even better driver than he was in his rookie year and to end all the talk about him only beating Alonso due to being favored by Ron Dennis. I expect if the car is the class of the field that Alonso will not beat Lewis because he will be badly out qualified and he is not as strong as Lewis in the wet (that's not an indictment of Alonso, who I rate at about a 9 in the wet to Lewis' 10). I think of any of the drivers on the grid in a dominant Mercedes they will not beat Lewis unless they have superior reliability. I think in a mid level car or co-dominant car Lewis will also beat Alonso, but in a dog of a car Alonso would win because I don't see Lewis having enough "give a fairy cakes" to get the most out of a dog.
Alonso's starts, he is the best off the line, all his career. I can't see Hamilton being able to beat him, Alonso will likely take the lead even if he started P2. We all know the Mercedes race is over at turn 1.

I also think that Alonso is the most under rated driver when it comes to qualifying.

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Re: Do you think Alonso would want to go to Mercedes?

Post by mcdo »

Donington93 wrote:Hamilton may feel that he lost the title due to circumstances beyond his control. I think he will be especially focused given that. That is the vengeance I speak of, vengeance against the rest of the grid for a title he will feel was lost due to having less reliability than a teammate he felt (rightly) he was a better overall performer than.

Put Alonso in that other car and Lewis will want to bury him to prove once and for all that he is an even better driver than he was in his rookie year and to end all the talk about him only beating Alonso due to being favored by Ron Dennis. I expect if the car is the class of the field that Alonso will not beat Lewis because he will be badly out qualified and he is not as strong as Lewis in the wet (that's not an indictment of Alonso, who I rate at about a 9 in the wet to Lewis' 10). I think of any of the drivers on the grid in a dominant Mercedes they will not beat Lewis unless they have superior reliability. I think in a mid level car or co-dominant car Lewis will also beat Alonso, but in a dog of a car Alonso would win because I don't see Lewis having enough "give a fairy cakes" to get the most out of a dog.
I don't think Alonso would beat him in their first year together. I'd wait til the 2nd to see a real dogfight. I think you'd be surprised
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Donington93
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Re: Do you think Alonso would want to go to Mercedes?

Post by Donington93 »

Alonso is going to be 36 years old during the year next year. Drivers do not get faster after their first few years over one lap and tend to lose a little speed after 33-34 or so. Hamilton is still below that age. Hamilton was his equal when they were both young, but Hamilton was a rookie. He may or may not have gotten faster but I think he would tend towards less mistakes than he had as a rookie.

This is my opinion but I suspect Alonso has lost .05 to .1 over one lap due to age and that will increase over time. Hamilton will lose that a few years from now, but hasn't yet.

As far as Alonso being a great starter, well when you are 13th on the grid the people around you are not usually the best drivers on the grid so beating them, while good, isn't the same as beating the top drivers. I also seem to recall Alonso jumping the start when he had a high starting spot with Ferrari. I don't recall Hamilton ever jumping a start, although his starts weren't so good this year. The other thing is I do think Hamilton could pass Alonso on the track (a lot of lesser talents than Hamilton have done it), but Hamilton almost never gets passed on the track (and we know from USGP 2007 that Alonso has struggled to pass Hamilton in equal equipment).

These are my opinions. Its obvious that others have different ones - if they are paired together I guess we will see who is more correct, if not its just speculation.

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mcdo
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Re: Do you think Alonso would want to go to Mercedes?

Post by mcdo »

Donington93 wrote:Alonso is going to be 36 years old during the year next year. Drivers do not get faster after their first few years over one lap and tend to lose a little speed after 33-34 or so. Hamilton is still below that age. Hamilton was his equal when they were both young, but Hamilton was a rookie. He may or may not have gotten faster but I think he would tend towards less mistakes than he had as a rookie.

This is my opinion but I suspect Alonso has lost .05 to .1 over one lap due to age and that will increase over time. Hamilton will lose that a few years from now, but hasn't yet.

As far as Alonso being a great starter, well when you are 13th on the grid the people around you are not usually the best drivers on the grid so beating them, while good, isn't the same as beating the top drivers. I also seem to recall Alonso jumping the start when he had a high starting spot with Ferrari. I don't recall Hamilton ever jumping a start, although his starts weren't so good this year. The other thing is I do think Hamilton could pass Alonso on the track (a lot of lesser talents than Hamilton have done it), but Hamilton almost never gets passed on the track (and we know from USGP 2007 that Alonso has struggled to pass Hamilton in equal equipment).

These are my opinions. Its obvious that others have different ones - if they are paired together I guess we will see who is more correct, if not its just speculation.
Kimi's 37 and just outqualified Seb this year. Seb has always been a superb qualifier and is reaching the age where an F1 driver is supposedly at their theoretical peak. There's no guarantee that the pace is gone once they reach their latter 30s. If a driver gets a car that suits their style then the age thing is moot

Alonso jumped the start once 6 years ago. His starts have nearly always been brilliant regardless of where he started on the grid. It's one of his trump cards. I recall Hamilton driving into a car at a red light once - doesn't mean it's likely to happen again

I've seen Jenson Button overtake Hamilton in the same car, it happens

None of it matters anyway, I don't see any way that Alonso will be sitting in a Merc next year
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Re: Do you think Alonso would want to go to Mercedes?

Post by Multi69 »

Alonso is the best candidate is every attribute over Pascal and Valteri. Experience, race craft (front and back of grid), dealing with sponsors, maturity, commitment.

Personally, I'd love to see him go to Mercedes and give the fans a Senna - Prost like battle, but I don't see this happening and Pascal will get the drive with equal status until about the 4th race when he keeps binning it and they slap the #2 status on him.

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Re: Do you think Alonso would want to go to Mercedes?

Post by sandman1347 »

Multi69 wrote:Alonso is the best candidate is every attribute over Pascal and Valteri. Experience, race craft (front and back of grid), dealing with sponsors, maturity, commitment.

Personally, I'd love to see him go to Mercedes and give the fans a Senna - Prost like battle, but I don't see this happening and Pascal will get the drive with equal status until about the 4th race when he keeps binning it and they slap the #2 status on him.
That would be a tragic outcome (especially if Mercedes actually maintain their dominance).

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moby
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Re: Do you think Alonso would want to go to Mercedes?

Post by moby »

trento wrote:
moby wrote:
Multi69 wrote:Yes, and the deal is happening right now. I think Alonso will even sacrifice part of his salary in a show of good faith to assist Mercedes in paying out McLaren an absurd amount of money to break his contract.

Mercedes slogan is 'The best or nothing' after all.
I think Alonso would PAY Merc to let him drive. But it is all about contracts first, and would Alonso fit th bill for Merc second.
They want a 1-2. Hamilton is capable of bringing home a 1, if everything goes to plan, and the thing (other than mechanical fills) most likely to prevent this is pressure from another car. Alonso would never accept a "back off" order.

Is it better to have an aggressive go-getter fighting for places, or a not so hot but reliable and compliant driver who is "just good enough"?
u can get a compliant driver if the car is fastest. Is Mercedes guaranteed the fastest car 2017? Unlikely due to reg changes and the pace of RB n Ferrari end of season.

If the performance of the teams level out, a compliant driver would potentially ruin their WCC.

Also, a compliant driver would never win the title. Look at the past no.2 drivers, none of them won. Rosberg thought he could be nice and win but he later realised he's gotta be ruthless as well.

That would be paramount for Merc. They are racing for the name Mercedes, not Hamilton, Rosberg or Alonso.

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Re: Do you think Alonso would want to go to Mercedes?

Post by trento »

pokerman wrote:
trento wrote:
Henri Royce wrote:
trento wrote:
ElevenTenths wrote:If Mercedes play fair and stop blowing up Hamilton's engines there is not a driver on the grid that can better Hamilton. If Alonso couldn't put Hamilton away as a rookie, I wonder what makes people think he can do so now. I woudn't even be close.

I see some already making excuses talking about it being "Lewis's team". Lewis has been competitive from day one of every team he has joined and just as Ricciardo proved against Vettel, it really does not matter how long your teammate has been with the team.
U can say the same for Max n Dan when the top teammates couldn't put them away.

Not saying Lewis is inferior but lots of people, perhaps yourself forget he did lose to someone n I'm not referring to Rosberg. Well, is Button better than Alonso?
You mean Button "outscoring" Hamilton ?. Had you actually seen the 2012 season ?, Hamilton decimated Button including lapping him in Canada, was it not for the mechanicsl issues Hamilton had then Button would not outscore Hamilton.
One race is not one season.
What season did you actually watch in 2012.
Button lost in 2012, won another season and on the whole, was matching Hamilton.

But my main point is the differences between the top drivers are very minimal. The difference in the top cars however can be pretty huge, as seen in recent years. Next year however is likely a different story. And Mercedes cannot afford to hire a no.2 type of driver like Bottas, Pascal etc.

The proven top guys Alonso, Button, Ric, Max, Kimi, Vettel are the ideal choices. And from these names, only one choice look available. Hence my vote for Button.

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Re: Do you think Alonso would want to go to Mercedes?

Post by trento »

moby wrote:
trento wrote:
moby wrote:
Multi69 wrote:Yes, and the deal is happening right now. I think Alonso will even sacrifice part of his salary in a show of good faith to assist Mercedes in paying out McLaren an absurd amount of money to break his contract.

Mercedes slogan is 'The best or nothing' after all.
I think Alonso would PAY Merc to let him drive. But it is all about contracts first, and would Alonso fit th bill for Merc second.
They want a 1-2. Hamilton is capable of bringing home a 1, if everything goes to plan, and the thing (other than mechanical fills) most likely to prevent this is pressure from another car. Alonso would never accept a "back off" order.

Is it better to have an aggressive go-getter fighting for places, or a not so hot but reliable and compliant driver who is "just good enough"?
u can get a compliant driver if the car is fastest. Is Mercedes guaranteed the fastest car 2017? Unlikely due to reg changes and the pace of RB n Ferrari end of season.

If the performance of the teams level out, a compliant driver would potentially ruin their WCC.

Also, a compliant driver would never win the title. Look at the past no.2 drivers, none of them won. Rosberg thought he could be nice and win but he later realised he's gotta be ruthless as well.

That would be paramount for Merc. They are racing for the name Mercedes, not Hamilton, Rosberg or Alonso.
True but any team will want to win both, especially the WDC gives them more visibility.

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Re: Do you think Alonso would want to go to Mercedes?

Post by LKS1 »

trento wrote:
pokerman wrote:
trento wrote:
Henri Royce wrote:
trento wrote:
U can say the same for Max n Dan when the top teammates couldn't put them away.

Not saying Lewis is inferior but lots of people, perhaps yourself forget he did lose to someone n I'm not referring to Rosberg. Well, is Button better than Alonso?
You mean Button "outscoring" Hamilton ?. Had you actually seen the 2012 season ?, Hamilton decimated Button including lapping him in Canada, was it not for the mechanicsl issues Hamilton had then Button would not outscore Hamilton.
One race is not one season.
What season did you actually watch in 2012.
Button lost in 2012, won another season and on the whole, was matching Hamilton.

But my main point is the differences between the top drivers are very minimal. The difference in the top cars however can be pretty huge, as seen in recent years. Next year however is likely a different story. And Mercedes cannot afford to hire a no.2 type of driver like Bottas, Pascal etc.

The proven top guys Alonso, Button, Ric, Max, Kimi, Vettel are the ideal choices. And from these names, only one choice look available. Hence my vote for Button.
Personally, I think Alonso and Lewis as team mates would become very toxic far more quickly than the Nico/Lewis partnership - which is why I'd be suprised if Merc sign Alonso even if he is contractually available.

But I've been very wrong before (Ferrari re-signing Kimi and Alonso going back to Mclaren) and hope I'm wrong again :) .

Incidentally, IIRC 2012 was an awful season for Button who was unable to get the set-up right for many races?

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Re: Do you think Alonso would want to go to Mercedes?

Post by mas »

Alonso and Hamilton would be a toxic gamble but both have shown signs of maturity and mutual respect/admiration since their collective petulant antics gifted Kimi the title in 2007. However Alonso would still be less of a gamble than an unproven Wehrlein who they could gamble with in a continuation year like 2015/6 but would probably be too risky for 2017. In 2017 with new regs they need someone both proven and fast enough to collect enough wcc points worthy of the car which means Bottas/Button level at the very least.

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Re: Do you think Alonso would want to go to Mercedes?

Post by LKS1 »

mas wrote:Alonso and Hamilton would be a toxic gamble but both have shown signs of maturity and mutual respect/admiration since their collective petulant antics gifted Kimi the title in 2007. However Alonso would still be less of a gamble than an unproven Wehrlein who they could gamble with in a continuation year like 2015/6 but would probably be too risky for 2017. In 2017 with new regs they need someone both proven and fast enough to collect enough wcc points worthy of the car which means Bottas/Button level at the very least.
Really?

We have Alonso whom Ferrari didn't want to retain for '15 (as far as we can make out), and Lewis who has been crashing with Nico this season - without even getting into him being warned that the team would pit Nico first if he tried to back him into the other drivers.....

None of this indicates that they'd be genuinely (as opposed to PR talk when they were praising each other for a while) friendly partners!

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Re: Do you think Alonso would want to go to Mercedes?

Post by Robot »

Alonso and Hamilton won't be toxic as long as they have equal status, cars and strategies in my opinion.

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Re: Do you think Alonso would want to go to Mercedes?

Post by Henri Royce »

MasterRacer wrote:Fernando would crush Hamilton into tiny dust particles if he joined the dream team. But I think Mercedes must have a German driver in the team, and there are some very good options to make that happen. So if Fernando joins, Mercedes must fire Hamilton for his dirty tactics in Abu Dhabi and then they can still bring in a German.
These are the comments you get when your opinion is shaped by media overrating Alonso. Give me some examples why you think Alonso would crush Hamilton while Alonso couldn't do it when Hamilton was a rookie, they only ended equal in points cause Hamilton had basically two DNF's the last two races. Keep on dreaming, Hamilton will decimate Alonso into retirement.

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Re: Do you think Alonso would want to go to Mercedes?

Post by WHoff78 »

Henri Royce wrote:
MasterRacer wrote:Fernando would crush Hamilton into tiny dust particles if he joined the dream team. But I think Mercedes must have a German driver in the team, and there are some very good options to make that happen. So if Fernando joins, Mercedes must fire Hamilton for his dirty tactics in Abu Dhabi and then they can still bring in a German.
These are the comments you get when your opinion is shaped by media overrating Alonso. Give me some examples why you think Alonso would crush Hamilton while Alonso couldn't do it when Hamilton was a rookie, they only ended equal in points cause Hamilton had basically two DNF's the last two races. Keep on dreaming, Hamilton will decimate Alonso into retirement.
Haha, this did make me chuckle. That's the two ends of the spectrum covered. I'm going to make the safe bet that the actual outcome would be somewhere in the middle.

ferdinand
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Re: Do you think Alonso would want to go to Mercedes?

Post by ferdinand »

Henri Royce wrote:
MasterRacer wrote:Fernando would crush Hamilton into tiny dust particles if he joined the dream team. But I think Mercedes must have a German driver in the team, and there are some very good options to make that happen. So if Fernando joins, Mercedes must fire Hamilton for his dirty tactics in Abu Dhabi and then they can still bring in a German.
These are the comments you get when your opinion is shaped by media overrating Alonso. Give me some examples why you think Alonso would crush Hamilton while Alonso couldn't do it when Hamilton was a rookie, they only ended equal in points cause Hamilton had basically two DNF's the last two races. Keep on dreaming, Hamilton will decimate Alonso into retirement.
Although it's not such "crushing to tiny dust particles", I do believe that Alonso is the better driver between the two. Do you not consider his mental burden because of Ron's psychological pressure against him in 2007, do you think it didn't even have any effect at all, really? If all went normally I believe Alonso would win the team mate battle and the WDC as well. It's McLaren's fault that they lost it albeit having the best car that year (according to Alonso).

And in the last two races in 2007 when Hamilton was leading by 17 points and needing only one fifth place finish, he binned it in Shanghai, botched his own start in Interlagos and could only finish 7th. It's his own doing.

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Re: Do you think Alonso would want to go to Mercedes?

Post by davidheath461 »

LKS1 wrote:

We have Alonso whom Ferrari didn't want to retain for '15 (as far as we can make out)
:lol: Is this a fact now?

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Re: Do you think Alonso would want to go to Mercedes?

Post by Lotus49 »

Briatore mentioned again the other day that Mattiacci and Ferrari were trying to get Alonso to sign that 3yr extension to 2019 before their fall out so I guess LKS1 could be referring to post fall out.
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Re: Do you think Alonso would want to go to Mercedes?

Post by SR1 »

ferdinand wrote:
Henri Royce wrote:
MasterRacer wrote:Fernando would crush Hamilton into tiny dust particles if he joined the dream team. But I think Mercedes must have a German driver in the team, and there are some very good options to make that happen. So if Fernando joins, Mercedes must fire Hamilton for his dirty tactics in Abu Dhabi and then they can still bring in a German.
These are the comments you get when your opinion is shaped by media overrating Alonso. Give me some examples why you think Alonso would crush Hamilton while Alonso couldn't do it when Hamilton was a rookie, they only ended equal in points cause Hamilton had basically two DNF's the last two races. Keep on dreaming, Hamilton will decimate Alonso into retirement.
Although it's not such "crushing to tiny dust particles", I do believe that Alonso is the better driver between the two. Do you not consider his mental burden because of Ron's psychological pressure against him in 2007, do you think it didn't even have any effect at all, really? If all went normally I believe Alonso would win the team mate battle and the WDC as well. It's McLaren's fault that they lost it albeit having the best car that year (according to Alonso).

And in the last two races in 2007 when Hamilton was leading by 17 points and needing only one fifth place finish, he binned it in Shanghai, botched his own start in Interlagos and could only finish 7th. It's his own doing.
From what i read of 2007, a similar "it's his own doing" could easily be leveled against Alonso, after all, he allowed an upstart rookie to ruffle him, get under his skin. As an experienced 2xWDC, in the best or equal best car on the grid, the 2007 title should have been his for the taking. But rather than roll his sleeves up and rise to the challenge, he allowed the situation to get on top of him.

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Re: Do you think Alonso would want to go to Mercedes?

Post by davidheath461 »

Lotus49 wrote:Briatore mentioned again the other day that Mattiacci and Ferrari were trying to get Alonso to sign that 3yr extension to 2019 before their fall out so I guess LKS1 could be referring to post fall out.
Yes i read that too. Which surely indicates that Ferrari were trying to keep him?

Allison is also quoted as trying to keep Alonso at Ferrari.

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