Hopefully what we all want

Forum rules
Please read the forum rules
mikeyg123
Posts: 18462
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by mikeyg123 »

flyboy10 wrote:For what it's worth, with the exceptions of possibly Andretti and Rosberg Snr., I've never heard of this notion of drivers deserving the title or not over a season. I'm from a time when the title was awarded to the driver with the most points and everybody just agreed that with or without luck the driver at the top at the end of the season was the champion and it was never questioned as to whether another driver was more deserving.

When Mika Hakkinen was going for his third title, he had appalling luck (reliability) but I can never remember anybody saying he deserved the title more than Schumacher and - as a big fan of his myself - I never thought he should get it because of his bad luck.

I think there's a confusion because Hamilton and Rosberg are ostensibly in the same team. If a Ferrari has better reliability than the Mercedes, I think most people would say that they've done a better job and the other team doesn't deserve to win with either of their drivers. But because Rosberg drives the same car as Hamilton, they're not perceived as being two separate teams which, in reality, they are.

What if the reliability and 'luck' on one side of the garage are a direct result of the teams beyond just the drivers? "Win as a team and lose as a team" and all that?

If Hamilton's team doesn't win this year, Hamilton won't be WDC and Rosberg will.
I think you've hit the nail on the head. Different teams. If a team produces a less reliable car then that is less of a luck element than team mates with vastly differing fortunes.

GingerFurball
Posts: 1804
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:20 pm

Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by GingerFurball »

The thing is Rosberg has had quite a poor season. Virtually every time he's been asked to race wheel to wheel it's resulted in contact and a penalty.

Gumption
Posts: 428
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:04 pm

Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by Gumption »

All this complaining about wanting a fair fight, what about the other 20 (at least 3 of which are every bit as good as the Mercedes pair) drivers who don't have a fair shot at winning a title, let alone any race the past three years unless some bad luck (unfairness) falls upon Mercedes?

flyboy10
Posts: 5402
Joined: Sun May 16, 2010 5:21 pm

Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by flyboy10 »

pokerman wrote:
flyboy10 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
flyboy10 wrote:So, how many more issues does Rosberg need in order to restore parity? And which particular instances of good and bad luck are we allowed to count or required to dismiss? One could argue that being penalised for causing a collision or forcing another driver off the track is a matter of luck when you see other drivers getting away with things. Is Malaysia an example of good luck, i.e. having a car that can recover to second place, or bad luck, i.e. getting hit in the first place?
I would say a retirement and starting from the back in the other two races would restore parity in terms of points loss. Malaysia Nico suffered bad luck but it didn't cost him any points and that was fortunate so I guess it balanced out.

In the same way Hamilton had to start at the back of the grid but his car is fast enough to still score good points so the impact is less than it may have been.
Would you agree that Hamilton's self imposed back-of-the-grid start in Spa would cancel out Rosberg's first lap collision in Malaysia (the engine blow-up aside, which we can discuss in terms of reliability and/or luck in its own right)?

Where do we place Hamilton crashing in qualifying? What about the Spain incident? Who was lucky there? I think someone made a list once of all the times when the race result was affected by reliability/luck in either quali or the race. I'd be interested to see that again with opinion and analysis of what it means to the worthiness of the current WDC points leader.
How was Hamilton's back of the grid start in Spa self imposed when it was done because he had run out of engines?
Because he could have taken just one new engine or fewer individual engine parts and had a much less severe penalty than having to go to the back. He (as part of the team) chose to stock up and take the hit of a back row start.

flyboy10
Posts: 5402
Joined: Sun May 16, 2010 5:21 pm

Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by flyboy10 »

GingerFurball wrote:The thing is Rosberg has had quite a poor season. Virtually every time he's been asked to race wheel to wheel it's resulted in contact and a penalty.
So if he still wins after all the bad driving and the penalties, he's really made up for it elsewhere?

Andy2402
Posts: 669
Joined: Sun May 15, 2016 12:58 pm

Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by Andy2402 »

Let me sum this up for everyone.

Who is the faster driver?

On race day when one is behind the other, who do you think would be more likely to catch and pass the other? If I was a Hamilton fan I'd have less concern about him being 2nd behind rosberg than if I was a rosberg fan when he is 2nd behind Hamilton.

Does Rosberg deserve it?

Of course he deserves it! But Hamilton has outperformed rosberg in every department this year apart from the start procedure

mikeyg123
Posts: 18462
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by mikeyg123 »

flyboy10 wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:The thing is Rosberg has had quite a poor season. Virtually every time he's been asked to race wheel to wheel it's resulted in contact and a penalty.
So if he still wins after all the bad driving and the penalties, he's really made up for it elsewhere?
The penalties and accident's really haven't cost him many points.

User avatar
Flash2k11
Posts: 2940
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:06 pm
Location: England
Contact:

Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by Flash2k11 »

flyboy10 wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:The thing is Rosberg has had quite a poor season. Virtually every time he's been asked to race wheel to wheel it's resulted in contact and a penalty.
So if he still wins after all the bad driving and the penalties, he's really made up for it elsewhere?
...or Hamilton's bad luck has outweighed any potential crappy driving? No need to be deliberately obtuse.

Bottom line for me is, apart from the farcical double points fiasco, where if either driver had won it purely because of double points it would have been a joke, whoever has the most points at the end of the season 'deserves' it, if only at the very least for making the very best of whatever situational quirks have been handed to them. What's making me chuckle in here is the seeming insinuation that, were Rosberg to win it, no one is allowed to mention the wretched luck Hamilton has had with his engines as a mitigating factor without being shouted down by people with an axe to grind. This mitigation doesn't make Rosberg any less deserving of the title if he wins it, he has still had to win the races and rack the points up the same as anyone else.

Far too many people want to paint this in black and white, its clearly a shade of (Mercedes Silver?) grey.
2018 Pick 10 Champion

Andy2402
Posts: 669
Joined: Sun May 15, 2016 12:58 pm

Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by Andy2402 »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:
clarkeeuk99 wrote:I'll admit I'm a Hamilton fan, but what I'd really like to see is a good, fair and reliability issue free end of the season, except of course for a nice little DNF for Rosberg at the next race to bring the gap down to 1 point with 2 races to go :D

No but seriously, I think what F1 could do with right now after what has been a pretty predictable season is a proper showdown in Brazil and then Abu Dhabi. If Rosberg then takes the title after a fair fight, not based on DNF's, engine penalties, or other issues, then I would hope that his win can be accepted as deserved.
Fair points for stating your preference, and you get a lot of respect from me for such honesty. But I do disagree, because your opinion and perspective (just like mine and anyone else's) is biased. You do not speak for me, and I do not speak for you. The bottom line is that whichever driver wins the title did it by accumulating more points over a long (the longest ever) season. That is all that matters, not how it was done, who deserves it more, even if it was fair.

How come I never saw a post like this last year, when Hamilton had run up a large margin? Where were those who are now expressing the opinion that it should be closer, and down to the last race? There was no post like this last year, and many now wishing for it to be closer were the same people celebrating Hamilton's third WDC.

I have already picked up the future complaint on whether Rosberg is deserving. Yet those very same people expressing this opinion may also be wishing for some reliability issue against Rosberg "just to make it more interesting". Be honest with yourself, you desire for Hamilton the very same thing you criticize Rosberg's legitimacy, namely reliability.

Oh, it's a very bad thing and a travesty on sports when someone wins a title based on reliability, yet we want Rosberg to suffer reliability issues so Hamilton may improve his chances to win it himself. Yes, that statement is dripping in sarcasm.

OK, I have pointed out the fallacy of your ethics. But what do I want? I desire parity between teams, so that more than just two drivers on the same team have a realistic chance for the title. I desire close and exciting racing.
In 2015 reliability didn't determine the wdc, and fans knew it. Hence nobody talked about did Hamilton deserve the title

mikeyg123
Posts: 18462
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by mikeyg123 »

Flash2k11 wrote:
flyboy10 wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:The thing is Rosberg has had quite a poor season. Virtually every time he's been asked to race wheel to wheel it's resulted in contact and a penalty.
So if he still wins after all the bad driving and the penalties, he's really made up for it elsewhere?
...or Hamilton's bad luck has outweighed any potential crappy driving? No need to be deliberately obtuse.

Bottom line for me is, apart from the farcical double points fiasco, where if either driver had won it purely because of double points it would have been a joke, whoever has the most points at the end of the season 'deserves' it, if only at the very least for making the very best of whatever situational quirks have been handed to them. What's making me chuckle in here is the seeming insinuation that, were Rosberg to win it, no one is allowed to mention the wretched luck Hamilton has had with his engines as a mitigating factor without being shouted down by people with an axe to grind. This mitigation doesn't make Rosberg any less deserving of the title if he wins it, he has still had to win the races and rack the points up the same as anyone else.

Far too many people want to paint this in black and white, its clearly a shade of (Mercedes Silver?) grey.
Agree completely.

Andy2402
Posts: 669
Joined: Sun May 15, 2016 12:58 pm

Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by Andy2402 »

Flash2k11 wrote:
flyboy10 wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:The thing is Rosberg has had quite a poor season. Virtually every time he's been asked to race wheel to wheel it's resulted in contact and a penalty.
So if he still wins after all the bad driving and the penalties, he's really made up for it elsewhere?
...or Hamilton's bad luck has outweighed any potential crappy driving? No need to be deliberately obtuse.

Bottom line for me is, apart from the farcical double points fiasco, where if either driver had won it purely because of double points it would have been a joke, whoever has the most points at the end of the season 'deserves' it, if only at the very least for making the very best of whatever situational quirks have been handed to them. What's making me chuckle in here is the seeming insinuation that, were Rosberg to win it, no one is allowed to mention the wretched luck Hamilton has had with his engines as a mitigating factor without being shouted down by people with an axe to grind. This mitigation doesn't make Rosberg any less deserving of the title if he wins it, he has still had to win the races and rack the points up the same as anyone else.

Far too many people want to paint this in black and white, its clearly a shade of (Mercedes Silver?) grey.
Spot on

Zoue
Posts: 25158
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am

Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by Zoue »

pokerman wrote:
clarkeeuk99 wrote:If Lewis gets another DNF, or if he outdrives Nico for the last 3 races but still misses out on the WDC, then I can't help but think that most won't feel Nico deserves it, myself included.

It's just a shame that the season has been decided completely so far by reliability.
The reality is that Rosberg has gained 64 points on Hamilton due to Hamilton's engine woes, so no not deserved but lucky.
The only two drivers who have had the potential to win a WDC since 2014 have been Mercedes drivers, because they have a car which makes them look so much better than anyone else. Does that make them not deserved but lucky? Why is Lewis more deserving than e.g. Alonso?

If the "better" driver is the only deserving one, then why bother having a Championship at all? Why not have everyone just vote for best driver at the end of the year?

If Rosberg wins the title, then unless he cheats in some way he will have been deserving. And I have seen no evidence of cheating

User avatar
Flash2k11
Posts: 2940
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:06 pm
Location: England
Contact:

Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by Flash2k11 »

Zoue wrote: The only two drivers who have had the potential to win a WDC since 2014 have been Mercedes drivers, because they have a car which makes them look so much better than anyone else. Does that make them not deserved but lucky? Why is Lewis more deserving than e.g. Alonso?
I think you're taking that out of the context of the argument. You could make a case for a lot of the grid being 'deserving' by that metric.
If the "better" driver is the only deserving one, then why bother having a Championship at all? Why not have everyone just vote for best driver at the end of the year?
Because the more 'deserving' driver doesn't always win? Very strange argument.
If Rosberg wins the title, then unless he cheats in some way he will have been deserving. And I have seen no evidence of cheating
Sure thing, which makes the bit before this rather more puzzling.
2018 Pick 10 Champion

Zoue
Posts: 25158
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am

Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by Zoue »

Flash2k11 wrote:
Zoue wrote: The only two drivers who have had the potential to win a WDC since 2014 have been Mercedes drivers, because they have a car which makes them look so much better than anyone else. Does that make them not deserved but lucky? Why is Lewis more deserving than e.g. Alonso?
I think you're taking that out of the context of the argument. You could make a case for a lot of the grid being 'deserving' by that metric.
If the "better" driver is the only deserving one, then why bother having a Championship at all? Why not have everyone just vote for best driver at the end of the year?
Because the more 'deserving' driver doesn't always win? Very strange argument.
If Rosberg wins the title, then unless he cheats in some way he will have been deserving. And I have seen no evidence of cheating
Sure thing, which makes the bit before this rather more puzzling.
It's only puzzling if you take it out of context. You need to look at the post I was responding to. The point is all this talk of Rosberg being less deserving than Lewis and only being lucky overlooks the fact that the Mercedes drivers have been exceptionally lucky to have the car they do in the first place. Luck plays a significant part in a non-spec series.

Lewis and Nico haven't beaten everyone else because they've been better than everyone else. They've done it because they've had by far the best car. How reliable that car is is simply an extension of that. So why should one be considered less deserving?

flyboy10
Posts: 5402
Joined: Sun May 16, 2010 5:21 pm

Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by flyboy10 »

Andy2402 wrote:Let me sum this up for everyone.

Who is the faster driver?

On race day when one is behind the other, who do you think would be more likely to catch and pass the other? If I was a Hamilton fan I'd have less concern about him being 2nd behind rosberg than if I was a rosberg fan when he is 2nd behind Hamilton.

Does Rosberg deserve it?

Of course he deserves it! But Hamilton has outperformed rosberg in every department this year apart from the start procedure
What's your point? That the only thing Rosberg is better at than Hamilton is his starts and that shouldn't be enough to separate them in a championship challenge? I'm not even sure that your assertion that Rosberg has been out-performed everywhere else is even true. Do you believe that on a weekend when Rosberg is just faster in every session and then goes on to win from pole that this is in some way still not any evidence that he is not being out-performed in every department but his starts? Even just to find one contradiction to your assertion, what do you think Baku was an example of? Was Rosberg out-performed there? Surely stuffing your car into an ancient building in quali is being outperformed in at least two departments?

painless
Posts: 365
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:03 pm

Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by painless »

I read a quote last night, and because I am a) Old and stupid and b) in a post-lunch stupor I can't remember who said it but it something along the following lines. "Every year someone wins the championship and in some years we have a champion"

Andy2402
Posts: 669
Joined: Sun May 15, 2016 12:58 pm

Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by Andy2402 »

That's madness, the fact they are in the same team makes luck/reliability issues comparable!

flyboy10
Posts: 5402
Joined: Sun May 16, 2010 5:21 pm

Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by flyboy10 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
flyboy10 wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:The thing is Rosberg has had quite a poor season. Virtually every time he's been asked to race wheel to wheel it's resulted in contact and a penalty.
So if he still wins after all the bad driving and the penalties, he's really made up for it elsewhere?
The penalties and accident's really haven't cost him many points.
Well, if Hamilton wins the WDC by one point, I'll have to disagree with you on that one. I won't be saying the WDC should have gone elsewhere.

Andy2402
Posts: 669
Joined: Sun May 15, 2016 12:58 pm

Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by Andy2402 »

I'm not suggesting Hamilton has out performed rosberg at every race weekend

But seeing as though you touch on qualifying performance would you agree this season Hamilton as out performed rosberg.

Also thoughts on my first point you didn't mention?

flyboy10
Posts: 5402
Joined: Sun May 16, 2010 5:21 pm

Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by flyboy10 »

Andy2402 wrote:I'm not suggesting Hamilton has out performed rosberg at every race weekend

But seeing as though you touch on qualifying performance would you agree this season Hamilton as out performed rosberg.

Also thoughts on my first point you didn't mention?
Not that I didn't have any thoughts on your first point, the second one was more provocative, I felt. I presume it's very easy to look at qualifying results and find your answer numerically/statistically? I think there are enough weekends where one has out performed the other and vice versa. In the races themselves, which is where the points are awarded, Hamilton has had one DNF due to his engine and they've both had one due to that collision. If Rosberg has one more single DNF and still wins, is there anything else that still points to it not being a fair reflection or that Hamilton has still been better by enough that he should have been the WDC?

Herb
Posts: 2409
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by Herb »

I don't think there should be any doubt that Rosberg is in his position because of the luck Hamilton has had this season.

But should he win the WDC, that wouldn't mean he doesn't deserve it. Picking up the pieces is part of racing. Saying he wouldn't deserve it is like saying Ricciardo hasn't deserved any of his race wins.

pokerman
Posts: 36347
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by pokerman »

flyboy10 wrote:For what it's worth, with the exceptions of possibly Andretti and Rosberg Snr., I've never heard of this notion of drivers deserving the title or not over a season. I'm from a time when the title was awarded to the driver with the most points and everybody just agreed that with or without luck the driver at the top at the end of the season was the champion and it was never questioned as to whether another driver was more deserving.

When Mika Hakkinen was going for his third title, he had appalling luck (reliability) but I can never remember anybody saying he deserved the title more than Schumacher and - as a big fan of his myself - I never thought he should get it because of his bad luck.

I think there's a confusion because Hamilton and Rosberg are ostensibly in the same team. If a Ferrari has better reliability than the Mercedes, I think most people would say that they've done a better job and the other team doesn't deserve to win with either of their drivers. But because Rosberg drives the same car as Hamilton, they're not perceived as being two separate teams which, in reality, they are.

What if the reliability and 'luck' on one side of the garage are a direct result of the teams beyond just the drivers? "Win as a team and lose as a team" and all that?

If Hamilton's team doesn't win this year, Hamilton won't be WDC and Rosberg will.
Hamilton's side of the garage have nothing to do with the assembly of the engines so it's not his team doing a worse job as such, it's just bad luck.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 95 (1st)
Pole Positions: 98 (1st)
Podiums: 165 (1st)


PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion

pokerman
Posts: 36347
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by pokerman »

flyboy10 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
flyboy10 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
flyboy10 wrote:So, how many more issues does Rosberg need in order to restore parity? And which particular instances of good and bad luck are we allowed to count or required to dismiss? One could argue that being penalised for causing a collision or forcing another driver off the track is a matter of luck when you see other drivers getting away with things. Is Malaysia an example of good luck, i.e. having a car that can recover to second place, or bad luck, i.e. getting hit in the first place?
I would say a retirement and starting from the back in the other two races would restore parity in terms of points loss. Malaysia Nico suffered bad luck but it didn't cost him any points and that was fortunate so I guess it balanced out.

In the same way Hamilton had to start at the back of the grid but his car is fast enough to still score good points so the impact is less than it may have been.
Would you agree that Hamilton's self imposed back-of-the-grid start in Spa would cancel out Rosberg's first lap collision in Malaysia (the engine blow-up aside, which we can discuss in terms of reliability and/or luck in its own right)?

Where do we place Hamilton crashing in qualifying? What about the Spain incident? Who was lucky there? I think someone made a list once of all the times when the race result was affected by reliability/luck in either quali or the race. I'd be interested to see that again with opinion and analysis of what it means to the worthiness of the current WDC points leader.
How was Hamilton's back of the grid start in Spa self imposed when it was done because he had run out of engines?
Because he could have taken just one new engine or fewer individual engine parts and had a much less severe penalty than having to go to the back. He (as part of the team) chose to stock up and take the hit of a back row start.
He was still going to get a penalty and finish behind Rosberg plus he's had another engine blow up since so the stocking up of engine parts has perhaps prevented yet another engine related grid penalty.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 95 (1st)
Pole Positions: 98 (1st)
Podiums: 165 (1st)


PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion

pokerman
Posts: 36347
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by pokerman »

flyboy10 wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:The thing is Rosberg has had quite a poor season. Virtually every time he's been asked to race wheel to wheel it's resulted in contact and a penalty.
So if he still wins after all the bad driving and the penalties, he's really made up for it elsewhere?
Yep in having engines that don't blow up.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 95 (1st)
Pole Positions: 98 (1st)
Podiums: 165 (1st)


PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion

User avatar
Flash2k11
Posts: 2940
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:06 pm
Location: England
Contact:

Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by Flash2k11 »

Zoue wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
Zoue wrote: The only two drivers who have had the potential to win a WDC since 2014 have been Mercedes drivers, because they have a car which makes them look so much better than anyone else. Does that make them not deserved but lucky? Why is Lewis more deserving than e.g. Alonso?
I think you're taking that out of the context of the argument. You could make a case for a lot of the grid being 'deserving' by that metric.
If the "better" driver is the only deserving one, then why bother having a Championship at all? Why not have everyone just vote for best driver at the end of the year?
Because the more 'deserving' driver doesn't always win? Very strange argument.
If Rosberg wins the title, then unless he cheats in some way he will have been deserving. And I have seen no evidence of cheating
Sure thing, which makes the bit before this rather more puzzling.
It's only puzzling if you take it out of context. You need to look at the post I was responding to. The point is all this talk of Rosberg being less deserving than Lewis and only being lucky overlooks the fact that the Mercedes drivers have been exceptionally lucky to have the car they do in the first place. Luck plays a significant part in a non-spec series.

Lewis and Nico haven't beaten everyone else because they've been better than everyone else. They've done it because they've had by far the best car. How reliable that car is is simply an extension of that. So why should one be considered less deserving?
I don't really understand where you are going with all this talk about the car when we are discussing who is more 'deserving' out of Hamilton and Rosberg. Both are equally lucky to have been in the best car, but that's where the equality in luck ends really. If either win it they would be deserving of it, yknow, by virtue of winning it, but to suggest that neither of them can have any complaints about misfortune because they are sat in the best car is a very strange angle to be coming from.
2018 Pick 10 Champion

User avatar
nixxxon
Posts: 3767
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 11:08 pm

Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by nixxxon »

pokerman wrote:Nice take on Rosberg himself forcing Hamilton off the track.
You dont force anyone to anything when having the option of pressing the brake pedal.
Lewis was at most half a car behind nico when he started to go off to the grass

Zoue
Posts: 25158
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am

Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by Zoue »

Flash2k11 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
Zoue wrote: The only two drivers who have had the potential to win a WDC since 2014 have been Mercedes drivers, because they have a car which makes them look so much better than anyone else. Does that make them not deserved but lucky? Why is Lewis more deserving than e.g. Alonso?
I think you're taking that out of the context of the argument. You could make a case for a lot of the grid being 'deserving' by that metric.
If the "better" driver is the only deserving one, then why bother having a Championship at all? Why not have everyone just vote for best driver at the end of the year?
Because the more 'deserving' driver doesn't always win? Very strange argument.
If Rosberg wins the title, then unless he cheats in some way he will have been deserving. And I have seen no evidence of cheating
Sure thing, which makes the bit before this rather more puzzling.
It's only puzzling if you take it out of context. You need to look at the post I was responding to. The point is all this talk of Rosberg being less deserving than Lewis and only being lucky overlooks the fact that the Mercedes drivers have been exceptionally lucky to have the car they do in the first place. Luck plays a significant part in a non-spec series.

Lewis and Nico haven't beaten everyone else because they've been better than everyone else. They've done it because they've had by far the best car. How reliable that car is is simply an extension of that. So why should one be considered less deserving?
I don't really understand where you are going with all this talk about the car when we are discussing who is more 'deserving' out of Hamilton and Rosberg. Both are equally lucky to have been in the best car, but that's where the equality in luck ends really. If either win it they would be deserving of it, yknow, by virtue of winning it, but to suggest that neither of them can have any complaints about misfortune because they are sat in the best car is a very strange angle to be coming from.
It's clear you don't understand. My position is either would be deserving in answer to another poster who claimed Nico wouldn't be but would just be lucky.

flyboy10
Posts: 5402
Joined: Sun May 16, 2010 5:21 pm

Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by flyboy10 »

Herb wrote:I don't think there should be any doubt that Rosberg is in his position because of the luck Hamilton has had this season.

But should he win the WDC, that wouldn't mean he doesn't deserve it. Picking up the pieces is part of racing. Saying he wouldn't deserve it is like saying Ricciardo hasn't deserved any of his race wins.
I just want to be clear here - not only in response to your post - but is the overriding feeling that if Rosberg wins this year's WDC it will be because Hamilton was unlucky?

I want to get to the crux of what does Rosberg have to do for people to agree/accept that he has actually beaten Hamilton, deserves it, hasn't somehow only been lucky and has simply been better this year than his team-mate. Could somebody please create a list of criteria he would have to satisfy - or is it too late in the season for him to accomplish this in most people's eyes?

And could this be compared with all the times that these criteria have been managed by any other WDC in comparison to previous years, team-mates, other teams, other drivers and whatever other criteria people think Rosberg is not meeting?

User avatar
Flash2k11
Posts: 2940
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:06 pm
Location: England
Contact:

Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by Flash2k11 »

nixxxon wrote:
pokerman wrote:Nice take on Rosberg himself forcing Hamilton off the track.
You dont force anyone to anything when having the option of pressing the brake pedal.
Lewis was at most half a car behind nico when he started to go off to the grass
Not wishing to do this to death again, but he really wasn't, was he? Why argue with hyperbole when you can correctly argue that he probably hadn't done enough to be classed as alongside before Rosberg closed the door completely?
2018 Pick 10 Champion

pokerman
Posts: 36347
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by pokerman »

Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
clarkeeuk99 wrote:If Lewis gets another DNF, or if he outdrives Nico for the last 3 races but still misses out on the WDC, then I can't help but think that most won't feel Nico deserves it, myself included.

It's just a shame that the season has been decided completely so far by reliability.
The reality is that Rosberg has gained 64 points on Hamilton due to Hamilton's engine woes, so no not deserved but lucky.
The only two drivers who have had the potential to win a WDC since 2014 have been Mercedes drivers, because they have a car which makes them look so much better than anyone else. Does that make them not deserved but lucky? Why is Lewis more deserving than e.g. Alonso?

If the "better" driver is the only deserving one, then why bother having a Championship at all? Why not have everyone just vote for best driver at the end of the year?

If Rosberg wins the title, then unless he cheats in some way he will have been deserving. And I have seen no evidence of cheating
Maybe Hamilton is more deserving than Alonso because he made the choice to drive for a midfield team just before they made the big time whereas Alonso took what he thought was the safer option of joining Ferrari who at that point had a recent record of being Champions.

If Rosberg becomes WDC then he has been lucky to beat Hamilton because of better reliability, as for the rest of the grid 90% of them didn't have a CV that would have interested Mercedes.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 95 (1st)
Pole Positions: 98 (1st)
Podiums: 165 (1st)


PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion

User avatar
Flash2k11
Posts: 2940
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:06 pm
Location: England
Contact:

Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by Flash2k11 »

flyboy10 wrote:
Herb wrote:I don't think there should be any doubt that Rosberg is in his position because of the luck Hamilton has had this season.

But should he win the WDC, that wouldn't mean he doesn't deserve it. Picking up the pieces is part of racing. Saying he wouldn't deserve it is like saying Ricciardo hasn't deserved any of his race wins.
I just want to be clear here - not only in response to your post - but is the overriding feeling that if Rosberg wins this year's WDC it will be because Hamilton was unlucky?

I want to get to the crux of what does Rosberg have to do for people to agree/accept that he has actually beaten Hamilton, deserves it, hasn't somehow only been lucky and has simply been better this year than his team-mate. Could somebody please create a list of criteria he would have to satisfy - or is it too late in the season for him to accomplish this in most people's eyes?

And could this be compared with all the times that these criteria have been managed by any other WDC in comparison to previous years, team-mates, other teams, other drivers and whatever other criteria people think Rosberg is not meeting?
The crux when it comes to beating Hamilton? Beat him in a straight fight where reliability issues completely outside of their control haven't cost one of them at least the equivalent of 2 race wins worth of points. Is that really that hard to comprehend?
2018 Pick 10 Champion

pokerman
Posts: 36347
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by pokerman »

painless wrote:I read a quote last night, and because I am a) Old and stupid and b) in a post-lunch stupor I can't remember who said it but it something along the following lines. "Every year someone wins the championship and in some years we have a champion"
Yes indeed.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 95 (1st)
Pole Positions: 98 (1st)
Podiums: 165 (1st)


PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion

pokerman
Posts: 36347
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by pokerman »

flyboy10 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
flyboy10 wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:The thing is Rosberg has had quite a poor season. Virtually every time he's been asked to race wheel to wheel it's resulted in contact and a penalty.
So if he still wins after all the bad driving and the penalties, he's really made up for it elsewhere?
The penalties and accident's really haven't cost him many points.
Well, if Hamilton wins the WDC by one point, I'll have to disagree with you on that one. I won't be saying the WDC should have gone elsewhere.
How could you when Hamilton has lost more points than Rosberg with reliability issues?
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 95 (1st)
Pole Positions: 98 (1st)
Podiums: 165 (1st)


PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion

Zoue
Posts: 25158
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am

Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by Zoue »

pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
clarkeeuk99 wrote:If Lewis gets another DNF, or if he outdrives Nico for the last 3 races but still misses out on the WDC, then I can't help but think that most won't feel Nico deserves it, myself included.

It's just a shame that the season has been decided completely so far by reliability.
The reality is that Rosberg has gained 64 points on Hamilton due to Hamilton's engine woes, so no not deserved but lucky.
The only two drivers who have had the potential to win a WDC since 2014 have been Mercedes drivers, because they have a car which makes them look so much better than anyone else. Does that make them not deserved but lucky? Why is Lewis more deserving than e.g. Alonso?

If the "better" driver is the only deserving one, then why bother having a Championship at all? Why not have everyone just vote for best driver at the end of the year?

If Rosberg wins the title, then unless he cheats in some way he will have been deserving. And I have seen no evidence of cheating
Maybe Hamilton is more deserving than Alonso because he made the choice to drive for a midfield team just before they made the big time whereas Alonso took what he thought was the safer option of joining Ferrari who at that point had a recent record of being Champions.

If Rosberg becomes WDC then he has been lucky to beat Hamilton because of better reliability, as for the rest of the grid 90% of them didn't have a CV that would have interested Mercedes.
No, that's nonsense. Lewis is no more deserving than Alonso is. His good fortune in choosing a team that subsequently developed a car light years ahead of the opposition is just that - good fortune

It doesn't alter the fact that Lewis has been extremely lucky to be in the position he has been. But that doesn't mean his titles should be considered lucky and he deserved the ones he won. Likewise, Rosberg would be just as deserving should he eventually claim this year's title.

User avatar
Exediron
Posts: 8485
Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Location: Michigan, USA
Contact:

Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by Exediron »

If Rosberg wins, he's a deserving champion. He's not the champion I'd want if I had a choice, but he will have done enough over the course of a season to become world champion. Will he be one of the strongest WDCs there has been? No. He wouldn't be the weakest either.

You can't start arguing who 'deserves' their titles in sport; part of the appeal is that the best driver/team/athlete doesn't always win. If you can say Rosberg is unworthy because he had better equipment (more reliable) than Hamilton, what's to say Hamilton himself isn't less worthy than a driver who has an inferior car?

Much like the presidential election, it's part of the institution of F1 that whoever has the most points in the final counting is world champion, and calling any WDC undeserving without substantial evidence of cheating simply discredits the entire system. Don't be Donald Trump.
Last edited by Exediron on Tue Oct 25, 2016 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
PICK 10 COMPETITION (6 wins, 18 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017 & 2019
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion

pokerman
Posts: 36347
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by pokerman »

Herb wrote:I don't think there should be any doubt that Rosberg is in his position because of the luck Hamilton has had this season.

But should he win the WDC, that wouldn't mean he doesn't deserve it. Picking up the pieces is part of racing. Saying he wouldn't deserve it is like saying Ricciardo hasn't deserved any of his race wins.
I think that's different again with Ricciardo being in an inferior car.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 95 (1st)
Pole Positions: 98 (1st)
Podiums: 165 (1st)


PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion

Andy2402
Posts: 669
Joined: Sun May 15, 2016 12:58 pm

Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by Andy2402 »

Have a DNF and a couple of back of the grid starts? I might be over counting

But your right, I'm sure somebody could come up with many WDCs that were won following dodgy luck or reliability from a competitor. This is slightly different due to them being in the same car so on balance they should have similar reliability at least

User avatar
Exediron
Posts: 8485
Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Location: Michigan, USA
Contact:

Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by Exediron »

Andy2402 wrote:Have a DNF and a couple of back of the grid starts? I might be over counting

But your right, I'm sure somebody could come up with many WDCs that were won following dodgy luck or reliability from a competitor. This is slightly different due to them being in the same car so on balance they should have similar reliability at least
Spent any time in a Prost/Senna thread lately? :lol:
PICK 10 COMPETITION (6 wins, 18 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017 & 2019
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion

flyboy10
Posts: 5402
Joined: Sun May 16, 2010 5:21 pm

Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by flyboy10 »

Flash2k11 wrote:
flyboy10 wrote:
Herb wrote:I don't think there should be any doubt that Rosberg is in his position because of the luck Hamilton has had this season.

But should he win the WDC, that wouldn't mean he doesn't deserve it. Picking up the pieces is part of racing. Saying he wouldn't deserve it is like saying Ricciardo hasn't deserved any of his race wins.
I just want to be clear here - not only in response to your post - but is the overriding feeling that if Rosberg wins this year's WDC it will be because Hamilton was unlucky?

I want to get to the crux of what does Rosberg have to do for people to agree/accept that he has actually beaten Hamilton, deserves it, hasn't somehow only been lucky and has simply been better this year than his team-mate. Could somebody please create a list of criteria he would have to satisfy - or is it too late in the season for him to accomplish this in most people's eyes?

And could this be compared with all the times that these criteria have been managed by any other WDC in comparison to previous years, team-mates, other teams, other drivers and whatever other criteria people think Rosberg is not meeting?
The crux when it comes to beating Hamilton? Beat him in a straight fight where reliability issues completely outside of their control haven't cost one of them at least the equivalent of 2 race wins worth of points. Is that really that hard to comprehend?
Actually, yes it is! If Rosberg out qualifies Hamilton and wins from the front, we hear accusations that he hasn't had to race against him.
If Rosberg makes a better start from P2 and runs away with a victory, it's somehow not a fair fight. If he makes a better start from pole and runs away with the victory, it's not enough for some, even if Hamilton completely messes up the start and ends up 7th into the first corner it's somehow been made too easy for Rosberg and again it's not a fair fight. Even a grand slam over the race weekend isn't equivalent to Rosberg winning in a fair fight to some people. And if Rosberg gets punted going in to the first turn and ends up last on the first lap, his recovery drive to third and Hamilton's retirement is somehow only a reflection of Hamilton's bad luck to have not finished and the subsequent loss of 10 points on Rosberg's tally is simply ignored and not taken into account when measuring the good or bad luck that either of them has had.

User avatar
Flash2k11
Posts: 2940
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:06 pm
Location: England
Contact:

Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by Flash2k11 »

Exediron wrote:
Andy2402 wrote:Have a DNF and a couple of back of the grid starts? I might be over counting

But your right, I'm sure somebody could come up with many WDCs that were won following dodgy luck or reliability from a competitor. This is slightly different due to them being in the same car so on balance they should have similar reliability at least
Spent any time in a Prost/Senna thread lately? :lol:
To be honest, the parallels are there, aren't they? I reckon we will still be arguing the toss about Ham/Ros in 20 years time as much as we do Senna and Prost now... Hamilton is just as marmite as Senna is/was and with that kind of polarisation of opinion you will always get debate.
2018 Pick 10 Champion

Post Reply