Hopefully what we all want

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clarkeeuk99
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Hopefully what we all want

Post by clarkeeuk99 »

I'll admit I'm a Hamilton fan, but what I'd really like to see is a good, fair and reliability issue free end of the season, except of course for a nice little DNF for Rosberg at the next race to bring the gap down to 1 point with 2 races to go :D

No but seriously, I think what F1 could do with right now after what has been a pretty predictable season is a proper showdown in Brazil and then Abu Dhabi. If Rosberg then takes the title after a fair fight, not based on DNF's, engine penalties, or other issues, then I would hope that his win can be accepted as deserved.

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mds
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Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by mds »

clarkeeuk99 wrote:If Rosberg then takes the title after a fair fight, not based on DNF's, engine penalties, or other issues, then I would hope that his win can be accepted as deserved.
It will depend greatly on who you ask, because if Rosberg takes the title, you can be sure a good number of people will never acknowledge it as deserved.
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Black_Flag_11
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Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

It will be deserved for me and I'd imagine most others anyway.

The problem with going back over bad luck is that it's an endless spiral. Did Hamilton deserve 2008 (Massa pit stop at Singapore)? Did Vettel deserve 2012 (Belgium turn 1)? Or is it that the best driver of the season is the one "deserving" of the title? In which case IMO Ricciardo would be a 2 time champion after this season.

Nico will be as deserving as just about any WDC if he wins this year.

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Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by clarkeeuk99 »

If Lewis gets another DNF, or if he outdrives Nico for the last 3 races but still misses out on the WDC, then I can't help but think that most won't feel Nico deserves it, myself included.

It's just a shame that the season has been decided completely so far by reliability.

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Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by pokerman »

clarkeeuk99 wrote:I'll admit I'm a Hamilton fan, but what I'd really like to see is a good, fair and reliability issue free end of the season, except of course for a nice little DNF for Rosberg at the next race to bring the gap down to 1 point with 2 races to go :D

No but seriously, I think what F1 could do with right now after what has been a pretty predictable season is a proper showdown in Brazil and then Abu Dhabi. If Rosberg then takes the title after a fair fight, not based on DNF's, engine penalties, or other issues, then I would hope that his win can be accepted as deserved.
It's not actually much of a fight when all Rosberg has to do is finish one place behind Hamilton in each race, even Rosberg having a DNF basically still forces Hamilton to win all the races to win the title, surely a fair fight is when everything is even?
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Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by pokerman »

clarkeeuk99 wrote:If Lewis gets another DNF, or if he outdrives Nico for the last 3 races but still misses out on the WDC, then I can't help but think that most won't feel Nico deserves it, myself included.

It's just a shame that the season has been decided completely so far by reliability.
The reality is that Rosberg has gained 64 points on Hamilton due to Hamilton's engine woes, so no not deserved but lucky.
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nixxxon
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Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by nixxxon »

> Good, fair and reliability issue free end of the season
> A nice little DNF for Rosberg

Interesting.
Good that you said you're a Hamilton fan, otherwise no one would've noticed

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Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by Ennis »

nixxxon wrote:> Good, fair and reliability issue free end of the season
> A nice little DNF for Rosberg

Interesting.
Good that you said you're a Hamilton fan, otherwise no one would've noticed
I think a DNF for Rosberg in the next race would be 'fair' in the sense that overall reliability will probably still have went against Hamilton on the balance of things.

From an entertainment perspective, I want a Rosberg DNF and Hamilton win in the next race followed by a completely issue free final 2 races.

Full disclosure: I wouldn't class myself as a 'fan' of any driver, I find myself rooting for different people each season. I do believe Hamilton is the better driver to Rosberg and more 'deserving' this year and believe reliability has swayed things Rosberg's way.

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Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by mcdo »

pokerman wrote:
clarkeeuk99 wrote:If Lewis gets another DNF, or if he outdrives Nico for the last 3 races but still misses out on the WDC, then I can't help but think that most won't feel Nico deserves it, myself included.

It's just a shame that the season has been decided completely so far by reliability.
The reality is that Rosberg has gained 64 points on Hamilton due to Hamilton's engine woes, so no not deserved but lucky.
The driver with the most points is the one that deserves it
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mikeyg123
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Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by mikeyg123 »

If Rosberg scores most points he deserves it (As long as it's achieved without taking Hamilton out again or Monaco hi-jinks etc). That doesn't mean that he won't have been exceptionally lucky though.

Hamilton just needs to win the next two races and see how Nico responds to pressure.

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ynot22
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Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by ynot22 »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:It will be deserved for me and I'd imagine most others anyway.

The problem with going back over bad luck is that it's an endless spiral. Did Hamilton deserve 2008 (Massa pit stop at Singapore)? Did Vettel deserve 2012 (Belgium turn 1)? Or is it that the best driver of the season is the one "deserving" of the title? In which case IMO Ricciardo would be a 2 time champion after this season.

Nico will be as deserving as just about any WDC if he wins this year.
Agreed. Reliability has always been part of the game and all that most people will remember in a year or two is that Rosberg won the WDC in '16. The person with the most points deserves it with the one exception for me being the illegal traction controlled Benetton of Michael Schumacher in 1994

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Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by Prema »

pokerman wrote:
clarkeeuk99 wrote:If Lewis gets another DNF, or if he outdrives Nico for the last 3 races but still misses out on the WDC, then I can't help but think that most won't feel Nico deserves it, myself included.

It's just a shame that the season has been decided completely so far by reliability.
The reality is that Rosberg has gained 64 points on Hamilton due to Hamilton's engine woes, so no not deserved but lucky.
An interesting calculation. The assumption of "reality" here being that Hamilton gained 0 points on Rosberg due to any kind of display of luck? In other words, Rosberg had no unlucky moments and Lewis had no lucky moments.

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Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by MistaVega23 »

As a Brit I'd really like to see Hamilton win his fourth title. If it doesn't happen, then it's fully deserved for Nico. End of.

I've always wanted Damon to remain the only son of a WDC that's won the title himself, but records are there to be broken I guess.

I know it's only been two seasons, but I've also really missed seeing the No.1 on a car since Lewis kept his No.44, so I'm hoping that, should Rosberg nick it, that he'll change from his customary No.6 to the Champion's Number. Every cloud and all that...
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Prema
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Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by Prema »

clarkeeuk99 wrote:If Lewis gets another DNF, or if he outdrives Nico for the last 3 races but still misses out on the WDC, then I can't help but think that most won't feel Nico deserves it, myself included.

It's just a shame that the season has been decided completely so far by reliability.
Which would indicate like the two have been pretty much evenly matched otherwise.

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nixxxon
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Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by nixxxon »

Ennis wrote:
nixxxon wrote:> Good, fair and reliability issue free end of the season
> A nice little DNF for Rosberg

Interesting.
Good that you said you're a Hamilton fan, otherwise no one would've noticed
I think a DNF for Rosberg in the next race would be 'fair' in the sense that overall reliability will probably still have went against Hamilton on the balance of things.

From an entertainment perspective, I want a Rosberg DNF and Hamilton win in the next race followed by a completely issue free final 2 races.

Full disclosure: I wouldn't class myself as a 'fan' of any driver, I find myself rooting for different people each season. I do believe Hamilton is the better driver to Rosberg and more 'deserving' this year and believe reliability has swayed things Rosberg's way.
Rosberg has also had his share of bad luck

The main, one, in case some people dont remember, is that he was taken out by Hamilton himself in Spain, because Hamilton ran off track onto the grass and lost control of his car.
In Malaysia, Rosberg was hit by Vettel at the start and he dropped to the back

Hamitlon and his fans have to deal with it and realise that you can't win all the time because sometimes sh*t happens

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Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

Sorry but the first part of your argument is wrong.
Hamilton was forced off track BY Rosberg, though I'm 1,747% positive you will argue that point to the bitter end.
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Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by flyboy10 »

mikeyg123 wrote:If Rosberg scores most points he deserves it (As long as it's achieved without taking Hamilton out again or Monaco hi-jinks etc). That doesn't mean that he won't have been exceptionally lucky though.

Hamilton just needs to win the next two races and see how Nico responds to pressure.
I'm struggling to remember the last time Rosberg took Hamilton out???

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Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by Jenson's Understeer »

If Nico wins then he deserves it. Perhaps not as much as he would've done had Lewis had no reliability issues, but to suggest he doesn't deserve it because of that is ridiculous. He can't be blamed for the fact his car has been the more reliable of the two.
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Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by AnRs »

F1 MERCENARY wrote:Sorry but the first part of your argument is wrong.
Hamilton was forced off track BY Rosberg, though I'm 1,747% positive you will argue that point to the bitter end.
That's just an opinion, what he wrote was a fact.

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Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by Ennis »

nixxxon wrote:
Rosberg has also had his share of bad luck

The main, one, in case some people dont remember, is that he was taken out by Hamilton himself in Spain, because Hamilton ran off track onto the grass and lost control of his car.
In Malaysia, Rosberg was hit by Vettel at the start and he dropped to the back

Hamitlon and his fans have to deal with it and realise that you can't win all the time because sometimes sh*t happens
I don't think anyone is questioning that every driver has had bad luck. I think its also completely certain that this season Hamilton has had significantly more than Rosberg.
Malaysia is a strange example to give - Rosberg is hit by the back but given his car advantage manages to climb his way back through (as both he and Hamilton have done repeatedly). His teammate then drops out from a comfortable lead which turns a 13 point loss to a 15 point gain. This is more of an example of Hamilton's increased bad luck than anything else.

Yes, Hamilton fans have to deal with it. It doesn't mean it can't be raised, discussed and pointed out that he has - for the most part, - outperformed Rosberg this season when you take away the disadvantages he's had.

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Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by Ennis »

nixxxon wrote:
Rosberg has also had his share of bad luck

The main, one, in case some people dont remember, is that he was taken out by Hamilton himself in Spain, because Hamilton ran off track onto the grass and lost control of his car.
In Malaysia, Rosberg was hit by Vettel at the start and he dropped to the back

Hamitlon and his fans have to deal with it and realise that you can't win all the time because sometimes sh*t happens
I don't think anyone is questioning that every driver has had bad luck. I think its also completely certain that this season Hamilton has had significantly more than Rosberg.
Malaysia is a strange example to give - Rosberg is hit by the back but given his car advantage manages to climb his way back through (as both he and Hamilton have done repeatedly). His teammate then drops out from a comfortable lead which turns a 13 point loss to a 15 point gain. This is more of an example of Hamilton's increased bad luck than anything else.

Yes, Hamilton fans have to deal with it. It doesn't mean it can't be raised, discussed and pointed out that he has - for the most part, - outperformed Rosberg this season when you take away the disadvantages he's had.

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Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by Ennis »

nixxxon wrote:
Rosberg has also had his share of bad luck

The main, one, in case some people dont remember, is that he was taken out by Hamilton himself in Spain, because Hamilton ran off track onto the grass and lost control of his car.
In Malaysia, Rosberg was hit by Vettel at the start and he dropped to the back

Hamitlon and his fans have to deal with it and realise that you can't win all the time because sometimes sh*t happens
I don't think anyone is questioning that every driver has had bad luck. I think its also completely certain that this season Hamilton has had significantly more than Rosberg.
Malaysia is a strange example to give - Rosberg is hit by the back but given his car advantage manages to climb his way back through (as both he and Hamilton have done repeatedly). His teammate then drops out from a comfortable lead which turns a 13 point loss to a 15 point gain. This is more of an example of Hamilton's increased bad luck than anything else.

Yes, Hamilton fans have to deal with it. It doesn't mean it can't be raised, discussed and pointed out that he has - for the most part, - outperformed Rosberg this season when you take away the disadvantages he's had.

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Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

clarkeeuk99 wrote:I'll admit I'm a Hamilton fan, but what I'd really like to see is a good, fair and reliability issue free end of the season, except of course for a nice little DNF for Rosberg at the next race to bring the gap down to 1 point with 2 races to go :D

No but seriously, I think what F1 could do with right now after what has been a pretty predictable season is a proper showdown in Brazil and then Abu Dhabi. If Rosberg then takes the title after a fair fight, not based on DNF's, engine penalties, or other issues, then I would hope that his win can be accepted as deserved.
Fair points for stating your preference, and you get a lot of respect from me for such honesty. But I do disagree, because your opinion and perspective (just like mine and anyone else's) is biased. You do not speak for me, and I do not speak for you. The bottom line is that whichever driver wins the title did it by accumulating more points over a long (the longest ever) season. That is all that matters, not how it was done, who deserves it more, even if it was fair.

How come I never saw a post like this last year, when Hamilton had run up a large margin? Where were those who are now expressing the opinion that it should be closer, and down to the last race? There was no post like this last year, and many now wishing for it to be closer were the same people celebrating Hamilton's third WDC.

I have already picked up the future complaint on whether Rosberg is deserving. Yet those very same people expressing this opinion may also be wishing for some reliability issue against Rosberg "just to make it more interesting". Be honest with yourself, you desire for Hamilton the very same thing you criticize Rosberg's legitimacy, namely reliability.

Oh, it's a very bad thing and a travesty on sports when someone wins a title based on reliability, yet we want Rosberg to suffer reliability issues so Hamilton may improve his chances to win it himself. Yes, that statement is dripping in sarcasm.

OK, I have pointed out the fallacy of your ethics. But what do I want? I desire parity between teams, so that more than just two drivers on the same team have a realistic chance for the title. I desire close and exciting racing.
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Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by Ennis »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:
clarkeeuk99 wrote:I'll admit I'm a Hamilton fan, but what I'd really like to see is a good, fair and reliability issue free end of the season, except of course for a nice little DNF for Rosberg at the next race to bring the gap down to 1 point with 2 races to go :D

No but seriously, I think what F1 could do with right now after what has been a pretty predictable season is a proper showdown in Brazil and then Abu Dhabi. If Rosberg then takes the title after a fair fight, not based on DNF's, engine penalties, or other issues, then I would hope that his win can be accepted as deserved.
Fair points for stating your preference, and you get a lot of respect from me for such honesty. But I do disagree, because your opinion and perspective (just like mine and anyone else's) is biased. You do not speak for me, and I do not speak for you. The bottom line is that whichever driver wins the title did it by accumulating more points over a long (the longest ever) season. That is all that matters, not how it was done, who deserves it more, even if it was fair.

How come I never saw a post like this last year, when Hamilton had run up a large margin? Where were those who are now expressing the opinion that it should be closer, and down to the last race? There was no post like this last year, and many now wishing for it to be closer were the same people celebrating Hamilton's third WDC.

I have already picked up the future complaint on whether Rosberg is deserving. Yet those very same people expressing this opinion may also be wishing for some reliability issue against Rosberg "just to make it more interesting". Be honest with yourself, you desire for Hamilton the very same thing you criticize Rosberg's legitimacy, namely reliability.

Oh, it's a very bad thing and a travesty on sports when someone wins a title based on reliability, yet we want Rosberg to suffer reliability issues so Hamilton may improve his chances to win it himself. Yes, that statement is dripping in sarcasm.

OK, I have pointed out the fallacy of your ethics. But what do I want? I desire parity between teams, so that more than just two drivers on the same team have a realistic chance for the title. I desire close and exciting racing.
Because most people believe Hamilton to be the faster driver, so they believe that what happened only changed the gap and not the ultimate outcome. The belief now is that the lesser driver of the 2 has won because of 'luck'.

If Vettel had sealed his 4th WDC with Webber DNFing half the races nobody would bat an eyelid because, regardless of gap, they expected Vettel to beat Webber. If Webber had denied Vettel and Vettel had multiple DNFs then that would be a whole different debate.

EDIT - to add, the OP is clearly wanting a 'levelling' of unreliability. If both WDC competing drivers have equal but severe reliability issues, then the title hasn't been won on reliability.

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Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by Ruste13 »

Yawn.

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Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by flyboy10 »

So, how many more issues does Rosberg need in order to restore parity? And which particular instances of good and bad luck are we allowed to count or required to dismiss? One could argue that being penalised for causing a collision or forcing another driver off the track is a matter of luck when you see other drivers getting away with things. Is Malaysia an example of good luck, i.e. having a car that can recover to second place, or bad luck, i.e. getting hit in the first place?

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Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

Ennis wrote:Because most people believe Hamilton to be the faster driver, so they believe that what happened only changed the gap and not the ultimate outcome. The belief now is that the lesser driver of the 2 has won because of 'luck'.
I respectfully disagree with that statement. So far Hamilton has 9 pole positions against Rosberg's 8. In race pace, again, the margin is minuscule. For fastest laps in a race, Rosberg has 6 versus Hamilton's 3.

IMO for 2016 they are evenly matched in pace.
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Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by Ennis »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Ennis wrote:Because most people believe Hamilton to be the faster driver, so they believe that what happened only changed the gap and not the ultimate outcome. The belief now is that the lesser driver of the 2 has won because of 'luck'.
I respectfully disagree with that statement. So far Hamilton has 9 pole positions against Rosberg's 8. In race pace, again, the margin is minuscule. For fastest laps in a race, Rosberg has 6 versus Hamilton's 3.

IMO for 2016 they are evenly matched in pace.
I believe fastest lap to be a fairly nonsense metric - but overall I'm not even looking to debate who is the faster driver. I think it stands to reason that most fans believe Hamilton to be faster than Rosberg, I think if you asked many people who are as unbiased as possible you'd get a resounding "Hamilton" as the answer. Hamilton, Vettel & Alonso have long been considered the Holy Trinity with the 2 RBR drivers now throwing themselves in to that mix.

Therefore there is going to be a debate when mechanical factors swing things in Rosberg's favour, but not to much when they swing things in Hamilton's favour (because they expected things to land in Hamilton's favour anyway).

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Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by mikeyg123 »

flyboy10 wrote:So, how many more issues does Rosberg need in order to restore parity? And which particular instances of good and bad luck are we allowed to count or required to dismiss? One could argue that being penalised for causing a collision or forcing another driver off the track is a matter of luck when you see other drivers getting away with things. Is Malaysia an example of good luck, i.e. having a car that can recover to second place, or bad luck, i.e. getting hit in the first place?
I would say a retirement and starting from the back in the other two races would restore parity in terms of points loss. Malaysia Nico suffered bad luck but it didn't cost him any points and that was fortunate so I guess it balanced out.

In the same way Hamilton had to start at the back of the grid but his car is fast enough to still score good points so the impact is less than it may have been.

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Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by flyboy10 »

Ennis wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Ennis wrote:Because most people believe Hamilton to be the faster driver, so they believe that what happened only changed the gap and not the ultimate outcome. The belief now is that the lesser driver of the 2 has won because of 'luck'.
I respectfully disagree with that statement. So far Hamilton has 9 pole positions against Rosberg's 8. In race pace, again, the margin is minuscule. For fastest laps in a race, Rosberg has 6 versus Hamilton's 3.

IMO for 2016 they are evenly matched in pace.
I believe fastest lap to be a fairly nonsense metric - but overall I'm not even looking to debate who is the faster driver. I think it stands to reason that most fans believe Hamilton to be faster than Rosberg, I think if you asked many people who are as unbiased as possible you'd get a resounding "Hamilton" as the answer. Hamilton, Vettel & Alonso have long been considered the Holy Trinity with the 2 RBR drivers now throwing themselves in to that mix.

Therefore there is going to be a debate when mechanical factors swing things in Rosberg's favour, but not to much when they swing things in Hamilton's favour (because they expected things to land in Hamilton's favour anyway).
I think the bold underlined part is a mistaken perception. I think the matter of who's fastest is simply measurable either in qualifying or on race day. I think many people think Hamilton is "better" than Rosberg because it usually goes Hamilton's way when the two of them try to share the same piece of track or go wheel-to-wheel racing. But when Rosberg gets a good start in a race and is out on his own, he can show Hamilton a clean pair of heels, because he can turn up at some tracks and simly be faster than Hamilton all weekend or all Sunday. I think a lot of people don't rate this as championship quality driving and it was often used against Vettel who apparently could only win from the front but was lousy at overtaking (at least on his own team-mate).
I'd be interested to know when Hamilton has been faster than Rosberg but not beaten him and conversely when has Rosberg won by not being the faster driver?

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Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by Ennis »

flyboy10 wrote:
Ennis wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Ennis wrote:Because most people believe Hamilton to be the faster driver, so they believe that what happened only changed the gap and not the ultimate outcome. The belief now is that the lesser driver of the 2 has won because of 'luck'.
I respectfully disagree with that statement. So far Hamilton has 9 pole positions against Rosberg's 8. In race pace, again, the margin is minuscule. For fastest laps in a race, Rosberg has 6 versus Hamilton's 3.

IMO for 2016 they are evenly matched in pace.
I believe fastest lap to be a fairly nonsense metric - but overall I'm not even looking to debate who is the faster driver. I think it stands to reason that most fans believe Hamilton to be faster than Rosberg, I think if you asked many people who are as unbiased as possible you'd get a resounding "Hamilton" as the answer. Hamilton, Vettel & Alonso have long been considered the Holy Trinity with the 2 RBR drivers now throwing themselves in to that mix.

Therefore there is going to be a debate when mechanical factors swing things in Rosberg's favour, but not to much when they swing things in Hamilton's favour (because they expected things to land in Hamilton's favour anyway).
I think the bold underlined part is a mistaken perception. I think the matter of who's fastest is simply measurable either in qualifying or on race day. I think many people think Hamilton is "better" than Rosberg because it usually goes Hamilton's way when the two of them try to share the same piece of track or go wheel-to-wheel racing. But when Rosberg gets a good start in a race and is out on his own, he can show Hamilton a clean pair of heels, because he can turn up at some tracks and simly be faster than Hamilton all weekend or all Sunday. I think a lot of people don't rate this as championship quality driving and it was often used against Vettel who apparently could only win from the front but was lousy at overtaking (at least on his own team-mate).
I'd be interested to know when Hamilton has been faster than Rosberg but not beaten him and conversely when has Rosberg won by not being the faster driver?
By 'faster' I'm using the term loosely. All things being equal, would you expect Hamilton or Rosberg to win over the course of a season? I think the vast majority would think Hamilton.

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Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by flyboy10 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
flyboy10 wrote:So, how many more issues does Rosberg need in order to restore parity? And which particular instances of good and bad luck are we allowed to count or required to dismiss? One could argue that being penalised for causing a collision or forcing another driver off the track is a matter of luck when you see other drivers getting away with things. Is Malaysia an example of good luck, i.e. having a car that can recover to second place, or bad luck, i.e. getting hit in the first place?
I would say a retirement and starting from the back in the other two races would restore parity in terms of points loss. Malaysia Nico suffered bad luck but it didn't cost him any points and that was fortunate so I guess it balanced out.

In the same way Hamilton had to start at the back of the grid but his car is fast enough to still score good points so the impact is less than it may have been.
Would you agree that Hamilton's self imposed back-of-the-grid start in Spa would cancel out Rosberg's first lap collision in Malaysia (the engine blow-up aside, which we can discuss in terms of reliability and/or luck in its own right)?

Where do we place Hamilton crashing in qualifying? What about the Spain incident? Who was lucky there? I think someone made a list once of all the times when the race result was affected by reliability/luck in either quali or the race. I'd be interested to see that again with opinion and analysis of what it means to the worthiness of the current WDC points leader.

mikeyg123
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Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by mikeyg123 »

flyboy10 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
flyboy10 wrote:So, how many more issues does Rosberg need in order to restore parity? And which particular instances of good and bad luck are we allowed to count or required to dismiss? One could argue that being penalised for causing a collision or forcing another driver off the track is a matter of luck when you see other drivers getting away with things. Is Malaysia an example of good luck, i.e. having a car that can recover to second place, or bad luck, i.e. getting hit in the first place?
I would say a retirement and starting from the back in the other two races would restore parity in terms of points loss. Malaysia Nico suffered bad luck but it didn't cost him any points and that was fortunate so I guess it balanced out.

In the same way Hamilton had to start at the back of the grid but his car is fast enough to still score good points so the impact is less than it may have been.
Would you agree that Hamilton's self imposed back-of-the-grid start in Spa would cancel out Rosberg's first lap collision in Malaysia (the engine blow-up aside, which we can discuss in terms of reliability and/or luck in its own right)?

Where do we place Hamilton crashing in qualifying? What about the Spain incident? Who was lucky there? I think someone made a list once of all the times when the race result was affected by reliability/luck in either quali or the race. I'd be interested to see that again with opinion and analysis of what it means to the worthiness of the current WDC points leader.
I don't count Hamilton crashing as unlucky or the Spain incident. Neither am I counting any bad starts. Just engine issues and when they have been blameless in accidents really.

flyboy10
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Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by flyboy10 »

Ennis wrote:
flyboy10 wrote:
Ennis wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Ennis wrote:Because most people believe Hamilton to be the faster driver, so they believe that what happened only changed the gap and not the ultimate outcome. The belief now is that the lesser driver of the 2 has won because of 'luck'.
I respectfully disagree with that statement. So far Hamilton has 9 pole positions against Rosberg's 8. In race pace, again, the margin is minuscule. For fastest laps in a race, Rosberg has 6 versus Hamilton's 3.

IMO for 2016 they are evenly matched in pace.
I believe fastest lap to be a fairly nonsense metric - but overall I'm not even looking to debate who is the faster driver. I think it stands to reason that most fans believe Hamilton to be faster than Rosberg, I think if you asked many people who are as unbiased as possible you'd get a resounding "Hamilton" as the answer. Hamilton, Vettel & Alonso have long been considered the Holy Trinity with the 2 RBR drivers now throwing themselves in to that mix.

Therefore there is going to be a debate when mechanical factors swing things in Rosberg's favour, but not to much when they swing things in Hamilton's favour (because they expected things to land in Hamilton's favour anyway).
I think the bold underlined part is a mistaken perception. I think the matter of who's fastest is simply measurable either in qualifying or on race day. I think many people think Hamilton is "better" than Rosberg because it usually goes Hamilton's way when the two of them try to share the same piece of track or go wheel-to-wheel racing. But when Rosberg gets a good start in a race and is out on his own, he can show Hamilton a clean pair of heels, because he can turn up at some tracks and simly be faster than Hamilton all weekend or all Sunday. I think a lot of people don't rate this as championship quality driving and it was often used against Vettel who apparently could only win from the front but was lousy at overtaking (at least on his own team-mate).
I'd be interested to know when Hamilton has been faster than Rosberg but not beaten him and conversely when has Rosberg won by not being the faster driver?
By 'faster' I'm using the term loosely. All things being equal, would you expect Hamilton or Rosberg to win over the course of a season? I think the vast majority would think Hamilton.
But expectation has to meet reality at some point.

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Blinky McSquinty
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Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

Ennis wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Ennis wrote:Because most people believe Hamilton to be the faster driver, so they believe that what happened only changed the gap and not the ultimate outcome. The belief now is that the lesser driver of the 2 has won because of 'luck'.
I respectfully disagree with that statement. So far Hamilton has 9 pole positions against Rosberg's 8. In race pace, again, the margin is minuscule. For fastest laps in a race, Rosberg has 6 versus Hamilton's 3.

IMO for 2016 they are evenly matched in pace.
I believe fastest lap to be a fairly nonsense metric - but overall I'm not even looking to debate who is the faster driver. I think it stands to reason that most fans believe Hamilton to be faster than Rosberg, I think if you asked many people who are as unbiased as possible you'd get a resounding "Hamilton" as the answer. Hamilton, Vettel & Alonso have long been considered the Holy Trinity with the 2 RBR drivers now throwing themselves in to that mix.

Therefore there is going to be a debate when mechanical factors swing things in Rosberg's favour, but not to much when they swing things in Hamilton's favour (because they expected things to land in Hamilton's favour anyway).
Most fans? I happen to be privy to a forum of very knowledgeable race fans where the flavor is very international and most do not marinate in adoring Hamilton. Rather the opposite. But I do adhere to my belief that Hamilton is one of the most talented drivers of his generation. He is quick, no doubt about that.

But Formula One is not just a one lap time trial, it is usually 300 km in length sharing the track with 20+ other cars, under difficult circumstances. Being quick is just one ingredient in the baker's mix in making a lovely pastry. Other factors such as willingness to do the homework (Schumacher is legendary for that), making good decisions, maintaining calm emotions, race pace, concentration, racecraft, intelligently balancing aggression against risk (reference Lauda), are relevant. A WDC is decided on many factors (including luck, reference Mansell Adelaide 1986) and not just raw pace.

Have you ever heard of Danny Ongais? Or Robby Gordon, incredibly talented wheelmen. But neither won any major titles, despite oozing immense driving talent. Or how about Gilles Villeneuve versus Jody Scheckter in 1979. Gilles had it all in talent, yet Jody won the title because he made better decisions, was better balanced emotionally, and took a leadership role in the team. Scheckter is no less a WDC than Rosberg may be, because in the final tally, he did a better job of preserving his machinery, and accumulated more points over an entire season.
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Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by pokerman »

Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
clarkeeuk99 wrote:If Lewis gets another DNF, or if he outdrives Nico for the last 3 races but still misses out on the WDC, then I can't help but think that most won't feel Nico deserves it, myself included.

It's just a shame that the season has been decided completely so far by reliability.
The reality is that Rosberg has gained 64 points on Hamilton due to Hamilton's engine woes, so no not deserved but lucky.
An interesting calculation. The assumption of "reality" here being that Hamilton gained 0 points on Rosberg due to any kind of display of luck? In other words, Rosberg had no unlucky moments and Lewis had no lucky moments.
I'm merely showing the effect that engine unreliability has had on Hamilton's season, Rosberg essentially has been given a better car over the season.
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Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by pokerman »

nixxxon wrote:
Ennis wrote:
nixxxon wrote:> Good, fair and reliability issue free end of the season
> A nice little DNF for Rosberg

Interesting.
Good that you said you're a Hamilton fan, otherwise no one would've noticed
I think a DNF for Rosberg in the next race would be 'fair' in the sense that overall reliability will probably still have went against Hamilton on the balance of things.

From an entertainment perspective, I want a Rosberg DNF and Hamilton win in the next race followed by a completely issue free final 2 races.

Full disclosure: I wouldn't class myself as a 'fan' of any driver, I find myself rooting for different people each season. I do believe Hamilton is the better driver to Rosberg and more 'deserving' this year and believe reliability has swayed things Rosberg's way.
Rosberg has also had his share of bad luck

The main, one, in case some people dont remember, is that he was taken out by Hamilton himself in Spain, because Hamilton ran off track onto the grass and lost control of his car.
In Malaysia, Rosberg was hit by Vettel at the start and he dropped to the back

Hamitlon and his fans have to deal with it and realise that you can't win all the time because sometimes sh*t happens
Nice take on Rosberg himself forcing Hamilton off the track.
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Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by pokerman »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Ennis wrote:Because most people believe Hamilton to be the faster driver, so they believe that what happened only changed the gap and not the ultimate outcome. The belief now is that the lesser driver of the 2 has won because of 'luck'.
I respectfully disagree with that statement. So far Hamilton has 9 pole positions against Rosberg's 8. In race pace, again, the margin is minuscule. For fastest laps in a race, Rosberg has 6 versus Hamilton's 3.

IMO for 2016 they are evenly matched in pace.
You seem to be forgetting the 3 qualifying sessions that Hamilton couldn't take part in because of engine issues so 3 of Rosberg's pole positions were gifts and let's not forget another one that he managed under double yellow flags whilst Hamilotn had to abort his lap which was going to be faster than Rosbergs.
Last edited by pokerman on Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by pokerman »

flyboy10 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
flyboy10 wrote:So, how many more issues does Rosberg need in order to restore parity? And which particular instances of good and bad luck are we allowed to count or required to dismiss? One could argue that being penalised for causing a collision or forcing another driver off the track is a matter of luck when you see other drivers getting away with things. Is Malaysia an example of good luck, i.e. having a car that can recover to second place, or bad luck, i.e. getting hit in the first place?
I would say a retirement and starting from the back in the other two races would restore parity in terms of points loss. Malaysia Nico suffered bad luck but it didn't cost him any points and that was fortunate so I guess it balanced out.

In the same way Hamilton had to start at the back of the grid but his car is fast enough to still score good points so the impact is less than it may have been.
Would you agree that Hamilton's self imposed back-of-the-grid start in Spa would cancel out Rosberg's first lap collision in Malaysia (the engine blow-up aside, which we can discuss in terms of reliability and/or luck in its own right)?

Where do we place Hamilton crashing in qualifying? What about the Spain incident? Who was lucky there? I think someone made a list once of all the times when the race result was affected by reliability/luck in either quali or the race. I'd be interested to see that again with opinion and analysis of what it means to the worthiness of the current WDC points leader.
How was Hamilton's back of the grid start in Spa self imposed when it was done because he had run out of engines?
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Re: Hopefully what we all want

Post by flyboy10 »

For what it's worth, with the exceptions of possibly Andretti and Rosberg Snr., I've never heard of this notion of drivers deserving the title or not over a season. I'm from a time when the title was awarded to the driver with the most points and everybody just agreed that with or without luck the driver at the top at the end of the season was the champion and it was never questioned as to whether another driver was more deserving.

When Mika Hakkinen was going for his third title, he had appalling luck (reliability) but I can never remember anybody saying he deserved the title more than Schumacher and - as a big fan of his myself - I never thought he should get it because of his bad luck.

I think there's a confusion because Hamilton and Rosberg are ostensibly in the same team. If a Ferrari has better reliability than the Mercedes, I think most people would say that they've done a better job and the other team doesn't deserve to win with either of their drivers. But because Rosberg drives the same car as Hamilton, they're not perceived as being two separate teams which, in reality, they are.

What if the reliability and 'luck' on one side of the garage are a direct result of the teams beyond just the drivers? "Win as a team and lose as a team" and all that?

If Hamilton's team doesn't win this year, Hamilton won't be WDC and Rosberg will.

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